Ok, so I have been playing with this for a bit. I took it to states and went 3/3 but it was more or less not tested at the time and I have been tweeking the list and moving things arround quite a bit since then as well. I really have enjoyed it so far but am looking for any more insight assuming anyone has something to add. I started off playing midrange Abzan but it was a little boring so I wanted to spice it up. I accept that I am probably over complicating things but I find it a lot more fun so this is what I am playing now.
I am still kicking this around quite a bit. When I played it at states I had too many spells in my sideboard and I found it too disrupting to what the deck was trying to do. As it stands, the Nyx Weaver have been underwhelming and have been primarily in there due to the fact that I had been running Empty the Pits in my sideboard but honestly I have had enough issues bringing that in that I think I might end up getting rid of the Weavers as well and going elsewhere with them. The Wingmate Rocs have been hit and miss but when they have been good they have been really good. I have a lot of lifegain in general in this list though so its possible I might cut them as I have been trying to move at least one Soul of Innistrad to the mainboard for testing (hes new to the list).
When it comes to the landbase, I honestly haven't had much of a problem since its primarily a GB list splashing the other two colors. It might be another reason to try to cut the wingmates though but they generally have not been an issue. The fact that Opulent Palace taps for my main two colors is very nice as well.
Overall, the list is still more or less not tested to the point of me being certain that anything belongs or does not belong but my experiences so far is that there is somewhat of an engine to the deck which is creature and mill based. I want to try to stick to that plan a bit in my design yet.
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So I'm working on building basically exactly this list +/- whatever. I'm trying to play 4 colors in every format while I can.
Any feedback on how you feel about so many 4 drops? It feels impossible to cut any.
I know what you mean about the 4 drops. To be honest though, all of the 4 drops feel like they need to stay. I used to run a third whip main but I droped it for the fourth commune.
As my list is currently, it is likely that I cut the Nyx Weaver back to a 1x of and test him there. He is one of those cards I want to see somewhere in the deck but rarely want to opening hand it. I considered the potential to rotate him into something like Restock or more likely Taigam's Scheming but having a high creature count does matter in this list. I also want to try to keep my creature count high for the Whip and Sidisi. I made the mistake of running too many spells in my sideboard at states and it was noticable that I was cutting into my creature count too often. The Nyx Weaver has often felt really clunky due to the cost to recover a spell being so high and the size of it being too often irrelevant. It does however whip back nicely or recover a whip in the case of opponents running removal for enchantments. Overall its likely that I will be cutting my number back as too often its not what I want to see.
Some similar list run also Ashen Rider
Combo with the whip really well
I also think you can run quickling like a 1-of (max 2)
Can work like a "counter" because can bounce your own creatures and can dodge the whip exile clause.
Is MCL but is a lot of fun with the Rhino
Ashen Rider I considered but to be honest outside of the situation where I am able to mill into it and then whip it back it feels underwhelming to me. Hornet Queen is also very strong with whip and it gives a lot of the midrange decks issues at the moment while costing one less mana to drop into play. I won a game off of it at states because I needed 4 blockers really to live and I hit it right on mana while at two life. Hornet Queen often gives me some troubles on its cost as well so paying one more mana for the rider seems a little less friendly to me. I think the rider is stronger against walker heavy metas but currently, midrange decks with just a few walkers tend to be the ones that are problems right now.
Quickling - it is an interesting idea as most of the current meta is running heavy spot removal. It does not however get around Whip of Erebos's exile clause but I could see it being run as a one of potentially. Offhand, I don't know if I will include it but it seems fun with the ETB stuff here.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
You're on to something, maybe...I've been working on reanimator non-stop since Khans spoilers, and I've recently cracked the Sultai code. (It's seriously super sweet. Deck manipulation is key.) Which is TECHNICALLY 4 colors because I run Ashen Rider mainboard, and use Mana Confluences and Caryatids to hard case it if I really have to, but usually just pitch it with a Sultai charm or manipulate it from my deck to my grave.
I feel like it is better off to just go full all-in, but this isn't bad. Just a little more inconsistent, and has a little less raw power at the cost of being easier to pilot.
I am with you though, Nyx weaver is not that great. I mostly run it to grab key pieces that I couldn't help but have in my grave, or as a tool-box later in the. 2 cards a turn is just too slow, and I'd much rather cast other things early unless I'm against aggro.
Some similar list run also Ashen Rider
Combo with the whip really well
I also think you can run quickling like a 1-of (max 2)
Can work like a "counter" because can bounce your own creatures and can dodge the whip exile clause.
Is MCL but is a lot of fun with the Rhino
That doesn't work. Read Whip again. "If it would go from the battlefield to ANYWHERE else, exile it instead." Bouncing it to your hand doesn't dodge it. The only thing that does that I can think of on the top of my hand is Rescue from the underworld because rescue doesn't care where the sac'd creature is, it'll bring it back anyways.
You're on to something, maybe...I've been working on reanimator non-stop since Khans spoilers, and I've recently cracked the Sultai code. (It's seriously super sweet. Deck manipulation is key.) Which is TECHNICALLY 4 colors because I run Ashen Rider mainboard, and use Mana Confluences and Caryatids to hard case it if I really have to, but usually just pitch it with a Sultai charm or manipulate it from my deck to my grave.
I feel like it is better off to just go full all-in, but this isn't bad. Just a little more inconsistent, and has a little less raw power at the cost of being easier to pilot.
That doesn't work. Read Whip again. "If it would go from the battlefield to ANYWHERE else, exile it instead." Bouncing it to your hand doesn't dodge it. The only thing that does that I can think of on the top of my hand is Rescue from the underworld because rescue doesn't care where the sac'd creature is, it'll bring it back anyways.
I did consider going deeper in on the self milling but my approach came from essentially a straight midrange Abzan list and I have been porting over a bit slower. It all started because I just really like Sidisi, Brood Tyrant and thought she would be really cool with whip.
I will take a look at your list though. I really like what I have so far but am interested to see where others are at as well.
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If you are splashing blue for sidis, splash blue for treasure cruize as well. If you are deper into blue you can instead splash dig through time
I considered them. I generally have fairly good card value overall though currently. There is also the problem that neither function well with the milling I am currently utilizing so they either diminish the power of Sidisi and Commune of the Gods or I cut into existing cards in the deck to run them. Cutting into the number of creatures is an issue for this deck in general as it works right now and overall the amount of card advantage in this list feels overall fairly good currently. It is more likely to consider them as a sideboard option against a control list where I might have more issues with card advantage but currently that does not seem to make up a very large portion of the meta.
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If you are splashing blue for sidis, splash blue for treasure cruize as well. If you are deper into blue you can instead splash dig through time
I considered them. I generally have fairly good card value overall though currently. There is also the problem that neither function well with the milling I am currently utilizing so they either diminish the power of Sidisi and Commune of the Gods or I cut into existing cards in the deck to run them. Cutting into the number of creatures is an issue for this deck in general as it works right now and overall the amount of card advantage in this list feels overall fairly good currently. It is more likely to consider them as a sideboard option against a control list where I might have more issues with card advantage but currently that does not seem to make up a very large portion of the meta.
Just to throw my two cents, card advantage is also really good against other midrange decks because most of the time you're trading 1 for 1. That's how I beat the current Abzan midrange meta most of the time. Outvalue and grind them out. That's also what Rescue from the Underworld is for. So amazing in that matchup late in the game.
I've been playing the Abzan Reanimator deck and my commentary is in that thread (also in this subsection of the forum). I think that the 3 color deck may eventually shift into what you are building here -- the question is the mana base. The Abzan version is basically GB with a splash of white for Ashen Rider and Siege Rhino. I would see a four color list still being GB with just a splash of white and a splash of blue. I think Wayfinder still needs to find a way into this list. I've cut Nyx Weaver from my list and it was a great cut. I question Hero's Downfall in the main though -- there has to be better value, especially with two color splashes. Also, if 2 whips are your only reanimation, this isn't much of a reanimator deck. I think you need more. If you don't get those two whips, or if they get countered, this turns into a mediocre midrange deck.
Resolute archangel is pretty nasty with whip and self mill. As is ashen rider, siege rhino, ive also always wanted to make Ob Nixilis work in a GB shell so I'll just leave his name there even if he doesn't work at all haha.
Some good discussion here. I agree that I am probably a little light on my reanimation effects so I will make a few changes.
CUTS:
2 Nyx Weaver - I have just had too much trouble trying to play with him to be honest. As a creature his stats just aren't relevant enough with what the current meta is running and he costs too much to use his ability.
2 Hero's Downfall - I have struggled with how much removal to run and honestly a lot of the removal is non synergistic which makes the deck operate a bit more awkwardly.
ADDS:
2 Pharika, God of Affliction - adding two might be heavy handed but there were several reasons I wanted to add her to the deck, 1) she drops in as a three drop which is good as I have so much at four currently 2) deat touch tokens are hard to deal with and can easily punch through courser and Caryatid while defending me quite well 3) the deck is primarily GB based meaning that she is actually something that could go online as a creature.
2 Endless Obedience - I am hesitant due to its cost as well as it being a noncreature but at the same time I have been trying to find another source of reanimation to run maindeck. I need to give it a shot though as I think the convoke actually makes it a lot more reasonable to cast and I do need to play with what removal and how much I play mainboard.
Some good discussion here. I agree that I am probably a little light on my reanimation effects so I will make a few changes.
CUTS:
2 Nyx Weaver - I have just had too much trouble trying to play with him to be honest. As a creature his stats just aren't relevant enough with what the current meta is running and he costs too much to use his ability.
2 Hero's Downfall - I have struggled with how much removal to run and honestly a lot of the removal is non synergistic which makes the deck operate a bit more awkwardly.
ADDS:
2 Pharika, God of Affliction - adding two might be heavy handed but there were several reasons I wanted to add her to the deck, 1) she drops in as a three drop which is good as I have so much at four currently 2) deat touch tokens are hard to deal with and can easily punch through courser and Caryatid while defending me quite well 3) the deck is primarily GB based meaning that she is actually something that could go online as a creature.
2 Endless Obedience - I am hesitant due to its cost as well as it being a noncreature but at the same time I have been trying to find another source of reanimation to run maindeck. I need to give it a shot though as I think the convoke actually makes it a lot more reasonable to cast and I do need to play with what removal and how much I play mainboard.
Three extremely busy days later, I think this list is a little better. A suggestion would be maybe run 1 Soul of Innistrad MB. Soul of Innistrad isn't very good in my list because Sidisi is the only creature I want casted from my hand later in the game. However, with all these Rhinos and Wingmate Rocs, it'd be pretty amazing after you held up mana for removal and they did nothing, allowing you to reload. I'd cut both Necropolis fiend, as in testing he really hasn't been that good. The key to really good reanimator decks is to have a huge impact as soon as it hits the board and I think Ashen Rider would give you a much more powerful bomb. Also goes great with Endless Obedience
If you want a better matchup against other Abzan decks, run Rescue from the Underworld in the sideboard. If they try to Abzan charm your Rhino, and you sac it with Rescue, then bring back something nasty with it, you basically win the game.
So overall I'd suggest testing:
MB:
-2 Necropolis
+1 Ashen Rider
+1 Soul of Inn.
SB:
-1 Soul of Inn.
-1 Necropolis Fiend
+2 Rescue from the Underworld
Three extremely busy days later, I think this list is a little better. A suggestion would be maybe run 1 Soul of Innistrad MB. Soul of Innistrad isn't very good in my list because Sidisi is the only creature I want casted from my hand later in the game. However, with all these Rhinos and Wingmate Rocs, it'd be pretty amazing after you held up mana for removal and they did nothing, allowing you to reload. I'd cut both Necropolis fiend, as in testing he really hasn't been that good. The key to really good reanimator decks is to have a huge impact as soon as it hits the board and I think Ashen Rider would give you a much more powerful bomb. Also goes great with Endless Obedience
If you want a better matchup against other Abzan decks, run Rescue from the Underworld in the sideboard. If they try to Abzan charm your Rhino, and you sac it with Rescue, then bring back something nasty with it, you basically win the game.
So overall I'd suggest testing:
MB:
-2 Necropolis
+1 Ashen Rider
+1 Soul of Inn.
SB:
-1 Soul of Inn.
-1 Necropolis Fiend
+2 Rescue from the Underworld
All three of my losses at states were to decks running heavy creatures and ended up mostly killing me via Stormbreath Dragon. In my own experience so far he is really strong against creature heavy removal light decks. He also gives me more removal in my list without using as many spells in deck which is a good thing. When against dragon heavy removal light decks the roc gets a lot worse and the fiends become much stronger. He also really helps my Sidisi to swing out as I can make any 5/5s smaller than her just off of her own trigger assuming they block. Where the Necropolis Fiend shines is against the creature heavy removal light lists. Where the roc shines tends to be against more removal heavy lists.
There is also the fact that Ashen Rider costs a lot of mana and realistically its unlikely I pay the full mana to play a Necropolis Fiend due to the delve he has.
Soul of Inn - I am looking to push one into the main as it stands. I just cant figure out what I want to move where to try to do it as of right now.
Rescue from the Underworld - I still personally don't care for the card.
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Ashen rider seems like the #1 reason to include white. I don't like necropolis fiendat all in this archetype, especially when paired with murderous cut. He's just not that great of a card and puts too much pressure on the yard. I think a singleton empty the pits could be an insanely powerful topdeck in a lot of situations.
I think courser of kruphix is really bad in this archetype. It does nothing to advance the overall strategy and is a terrible whip target. Just random goodstuff. Seems like a red herring.
Why not just cut the Communes and run 4 Whips? Also, what is Pharika really doing for you? Exiling your creatures is a bit counter productive, and you're not on the constellation sub-theme to take advantage of them. Also, 4 Murderous Cuts and 2-4 Downfalls is a nice removal suite to have. Soul of Innistrad definitely needs to be in the main, he's much better then endless obedience. You can see my list in my signature.
Ashen rider seems like the #1 reason to include white. I don't like necropolis fiendat all in this archetype, especially when paired with murderous cut. He's just not that great of a card and puts too much pressure on the yard. I think a singleton empty the pits could be an insanely powerful topdeck in a lot of situations.
I think courser of kruphix is really bad in this archetype. It does nothing to advance the overall strategy and is a terrible whip target. Just random goodstuff. Seems like a red herring.
To me, its too slow still. If I were doing an all in on recursion plan it might be true but I am not running Satyr Wayfinder (because I feel he doesnt do enough). This list is still focused on midrange goodstuff to some extent and not 100% focused on reanimation as I feel that it runs stronger when someone inserts some removal focused on exiling your yard or taking out your recursion.
necropolis fiend - he has his pros and cons. I have been running 2-3 cuts for a while with 2 whips and I still see a ton of lands and noncreatures to exile in general. I feel like he gives me more removal in my list while being more interactive with my list than a Hero's Downfall offhand.
empty the pits - I pushed it arround for a while. To be honest I dont like it much for a few reasons. 1) its bad when you mill into it. Including it sort of means you probably need to run 2x Nyx Weaver as well at least to recover it. 2) I only wanted it against control decks and heavier value midrange decks. These still have a problem though where against the control decks they might just keep counters up so its still really hard to resolve against them especially if you have to recover it from the bin which was my experience too often.
courser of kruphix - I have actually found that he interacts quite profitably with Sidisi, Brood Tyrant and Commune with the Gods as he gives you future knowledge of what you might be binning and whenever you screw with your library it gives him another shot at value. It is true that he doesn't value well from the graveyard but he does gain value quite well just on his own.
Why not just cut the Communes and run 4 Whips? Also, what is Pharika really doing for you? Exiling your creatures is a bit counter productive, and you're not on the constellation sub-theme to take advantage of them. Also, 4 Murderous Cuts and 2-4 Downfalls is a nice removal suite to have. Soul of Innistrad definitely needs to be in the main, he's much better then endless obedience. You can see my list in my signature.
4 whip is sort of heavy handed in my mind. I did run three of them for a while in an earlier version of this deck but I find that relying on it less made my deck better. I don't want to curve into a whip generally speaking in my list because I am not milling as hard. Even in a list that is milling hard though I suspect that you would not want to play more than three outside of the assumption that everyone is running heavy spot removal. Running heavier on whip seems like a deckbuilding decision that will likely also want you to run heavier on self milling. I am not running as heavy on self milling as you are which also results in me not running as many whip.
Pharika - the deck is green black based so animating her seems like something I could easily hit. She acts more as removal than anything against fellow midrange decks because 1/1 deathtouchers are a pain to deal with. I dont plan to swarm the board with deathtouch tokens by any means but I can hit her off of a lot of the creature interaction effects in the deck which I like and animating her should be something I can do.
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Woah lots of opinions flying around. Guess I should give my experiences on each suggestion.
I agree with a few things said here, but remember that some cards are only good in some versions of the archetype.
For example, Empty the pits is much better in the all-in Sultai version, as you can actually pop it off with a good amount of zombies much easier early so it's not dead nearly as often. I could see it not being in Abzan-based decks.
I also agree that Necropolis Fiend is not worth the slots, but I run Sultai charms and can reanimate Hornets much easier in an all-in style deck so I don't need him as an answer to Stormbreath, so I can see where ISB is coming from here.
I also agree that 4 whip is too much. If you rely only on whip, it's much easier for them to board in answers to just whip and just lose game 2-3. Hence why I run 3 Whip and 3 Endless to great success in my Sultai all-in list.
Ashen Rider is a house and one of the main reasons this archetype is worth doing, but if he doesn't want to run them, that's fine.
Lastly, Courser of Kruphix is fine in either list because in Abzan they grind a little more, and in Sultai they have a lot more deck interaction and it's very easy to generate easy CA. I run 2, and it's been great since I never see more than one.
Life got busy for a while. I got around to playing a small turnout FNM this last week though and it was a blast. I ended up taking first in a small 8 man event but everyone who showed up were regulars with fairly decent decks. This was the list I ran for it:
We sort of stalemated with some fatties in play that I could not punch through, I managed to get a Sidisi out as well. He played a Hornet Queen which I swung all into. He blocked them and I flashed out a Dictate of Erebos which snowballed the rest of his guys. From there I played my own Hornet Queen which came back to win the game for me. He later revealed that he had a Curse of the Swine and Unravel the Aether the turn that I blew him out with the Dictate of Erebos but he had tapped out for the Hornet Queen assuming it would cover.
Match 2: UB Control
Game 1
I went first and my opponent had his second land drop as an ETB tapped land. I played a Pharika, God of Affliction when I knew he could not counter it. I pushed a few creatures arround from there making some of them into snakes as well. I got a somewhat early Whip of Erebos to land and from there managed to just chain Sidisi together off of the whip which really wore him out. He attempted to flash in a Pearl Lake Ancient to block later on against a whipped Rhino which I happened to have a Murderous Cut for with my two mana up. This closed out the game.
Game 2
I brought in my Bloodsoaked Champion and Soul of Innistrad against him. I open with a turn one Bloodsoaked Champion to my opponents surprise. I manage to poke him a few times with it and the turn he drops an answer on it I happen to have topdecked a Pharika, God of Affliction which I drop in behind his removal. From here I try a few threats which he shoots down. I use them to fuel snake tokens which reanimate the Champion. The snakes and champs force him to play his removal on awkard targets. I manage to get access to all three of my champs in this game and I just whittle him down. He ends up playing a late game Prognostic Sphinx which I Murderous Cut to tap it and kill him.
**Note** I did manage to catch him by surprise with my Bloodsoaked Champion sideboarding. He did have Jorubai Murk Lurker and I knew he did but I also assumed he would not be bringing them in as he did not know about the Champions. Game three and or replay will have more issues against this deck with him knowing about these next time.
Game 2 I manage to curve fairly well and happened to see a good amount of removal at the right times. I manage to dismantle most of what he puts in and win off of the back of a Necropolis Fiend who ended up eating two important creatures for me.
Game 3 he keeps a really loose hand of 7 and doesn't curve into his lands. I just run him over after mulliganning down to 5.
So, it was a lot of fun. Its not really that significant of data by any means as it was a small event but the deck did well for me. From this testing I guess I have some feedback on a few cards:
Pharika, God of Affliction its definately stronger against the creature heavy builds. I really enjoyed having access to the death touch tokens from her. Even against the control decks it let me utilize some of the creatures I had no plan to bring back like Coursers and Caryatid to give me a little damage boost and the tokens did well for enabling raid for me against the control decks. She is a bit slow to turn on as a creature but against the decks that gum up the ground with creatures it happened a decent bit against giving me a good attacker / blocker with her as well as the access to the deathtouch tokens.
Necropolis Fiend there are a good number of midrange decks in my meta that dont pack heavy removal. He comes in sooner than the Hornet Queen due to his delve and gives me access to a lot of direct removal for utility creatures which I like. I found him useful more often than not to be honest. I suspect if I saw more Abzan in my meta it would be less good for me but I am seeing a lot of green devotion and Temur currently.
Endless Obedience I recall drawing it something like twice and I cant recall ever casting it. Most of the time when I was "seeing" it from milling through it. I really have no data one way or another and need to test it further right now.
Bloodsoaked Champion in the board they do great against control decks. I knew that there were a few people in my meta who like playing heavier control decks which is why I packed them in. They give me some good value in poking power and they mill really great. They seem like they could even be an option coming in with the Dictate of Erebos against some slower midrange decks. They run into Caryatid and Courser all day though which is unfortunate which is why they are sideboarded.
2 Endless Obedience -> 2 Rescue from the Underworld I just want to see how they operate on the flip side. I have a lot of ETB sort of creatures that tend to take the focus of removal so the idea of dropping a value generating creature and getting a second good target back at the same time seems to be good stuff. I honestly, am not sure about this change yet as its a little bit odd in the fact that its generally a response based effect to removal but its so expensive that your opponent sort of needs to wait for you to try to use something. Its sort of slow though if you use it on your turn as well but I don't think there is enough graveyard hate at the moment to worry too much about that. Like I said, this one is a bit of a puzzle to me yet as I am not sold entirely on either one of these effects but I want to just sort of test things.
1 Plains -> 1 Forest I am just seeing a little more white than I want to right now. I did cut into the quantity of the whingmate rocks lately and I think it affects how much I want to see plains due to that. Green is very important in my early game so while I considered a nonbasic green I decided that I like lands that don't hurt me but I needed more green access.
SIDBOARD
1 Drown in Sorrow -> 1 Doomwake Giant I had a few games against opposing Hornet Queens where I thought about the quantity of Drown I run in my list. Due to how many creatures Drown affects I tend to only bring it in against faster aggro decks so I thought I could move this about a little and have some better versatility against mirror type decks who also run the queen. Overall, this move is a little weaker against aggro decks but I haven't been seeing much of that of late so I think this is a good move.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Nyx Weaver
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
2 Hornet Queen
2 Necropolis Fiend
SPELLS (12)
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Murderous Cut
3 Flooded Strand
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Plains
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
4 Opulent Palace
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Necropolis Fiend
2 Nylea's Disciple
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Soul of Innistrad
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Sagu Mauler
I am still kicking this around quite a bit. When I played it at states I had too many spells in my sideboard and I found it too disrupting to what the deck was trying to do. As it stands, the Nyx Weaver have been underwhelming and have been primarily in there due to the fact that I had been running Empty the Pits in my sideboard but honestly I have had enough issues bringing that in that I think I might end up getting rid of the Weavers as well and going elsewhere with them. The Wingmate Rocs have been hit and miss but when they have been good they have been really good. I have a lot of lifegain in general in this list though so its possible I might cut them as I have been trying to move at least one Soul of Innistrad to the mainboard for testing (hes new to the list).
When it comes to the landbase, I honestly haven't had much of a problem since its primarily a GB list splashing the other two colors. It might be another reason to try to cut the wingmates though but they generally have not been an issue. The fact that Opulent Palace taps for my main two colors is very nice as well.
Overall, the list is still more or less not tested to the point of me being certain that anything belongs or does not belong but my experiences so far is that there is somewhat of an engine to the deck which is creature and mill based. I want to try to stick to that plan a bit in my design yet.
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[Modern] Allies
Any feedback on how you feel about so many 4 drops? It feels impossible to cut any.
I know what you mean about the 4 drops. To be honest though, all of the 4 drops feel like they need to stay. I used to run a third whip main but I droped it for the fourth commune.
As my list is currently, it is likely that I cut the Nyx Weaver back to a 1x of and test him there. He is one of those cards I want to see somewhere in the deck but rarely want to opening hand it. I considered the potential to rotate him into something like Restock or more likely Taigam's Scheming but having a high creature count does matter in this list. I also want to try to keep my creature count high for the Whip and Sidisi. I made the mistake of running too many spells in my sideboard at states and it was noticable that I was cutting into my creature count too often. The Nyx Weaver has often felt really clunky due to the cost to recover a spell being so high and the size of it being too often irrelevant. It does however whip back nicely or recover a whip in the case of opponents running removal for enchantments. Overall its likely that I will be cutting my number back as too often its not what I want to see.
Ashen Rider I considered but to be honest outside of the situation where I am able to mill into it and then whip it back it feels underwhelming to me. Hornet Queen is also very strong with whip and it gives a lot of the midrange decks issues at the moment while costing one less mana to drop into play. I won a game off of it at states because I needed 4 blockers really to live and I hit it right on mana while at two life. Hornet Queen often gives me some troubles on its cost as well so paying one more mana for the rider seems a little less friendly to me. I think the rider is stronger against walker heavy metas but currently, midrange decks with just a few walkers tend to be the ones that are problems right now.
Quickling - it is an interesting idea as most of the current meta is running heavy spot removal. It does not however get around Whip of Erebos's exile clause but I could see it being run as a one of potentially. Offhand, I don't know if I will include it but it seems fun with the ETB stuff here.
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[Modern] Allies
I feel like it is better off to just go full all-in, but this isn't bad. Just a little more inconsistent, and has a little less raw power at the cost of being easier to pilot.
If anyone is interested in my build, you can see it and the logic behind it here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/16-10-14-all-in-reanimator/
I am with you though, Nyx weaver is not that great. I mostly run it to grab key pieces that I couldn't help but have in my grave, or as a tool-box later in the. 2 cards a turn is just too slow, and I'd much rather cast other things early unless I'm against aggro.
That doesn't work. Read Whip again. "If it would go from the battlefield to ANYWHERE else, exile it instead." Bouncing it to your hand doesn't dodge it. The only thing that does that I can think of on the top of my hand is Rescue from the underworld because rescue doesn't care where the sac'd creature is, it'll bring it back anyways.
I did consider going deeper in on the self milling but my approach came from essentially a straight midrange Abzan list and I have been porting over a bit slower. It all started because I just really like Sidisi, Brood Tyrant and thought she would be really cool with whip.
I will take a look at your list though. I really like what I have so far but am interested to see where others are at as well.
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[Modern] Allies
I considered them. I generally have fairly good card value overall though currently. There is also the problem that neither function well with the milling I am currently utilizing so they either diminish the power of Sidisi and Commune of the Gods or I cut into existing cards in the deck to run them. Cutting into the number of creatures is an issue for this deck in general as it works right now and overall the amount of card advantage in this list feels overall fairly good currently. It is more likely to consider them as a sideboard option against a control list where I might have more issues with card advantage but currently that does not seem to make up a very large portion of the meta.
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[Modern] Allies
Just to throw my two cents, card advantage is also really good against other midrange decks because most of the time you're trading 1 for 1. That's how I beat the current Abzan midrange meta most of the time. Outvalue and grind them out. That's also what Rescue from the Underworld is for. So amazing in that matchup late in the game.
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CUTS:
2 Nyx Weaver - I have just had too much trouble trying to play with him to be honest. As a creature his stats just aren't relevant enough with what the current meta is running and he costs too much to use his ability.
2 Hero's Downfall - I have struggled with how much removal to run and honestly a lot of the removal is non synergistic which makes the deck operate a bit more awkwardly.
ADDS:
2 Pharika, God of Affliction - adding two might be heavy handed but there were several reasons I wanted to add her to the deck, 1) she drops in as a three drop which is good as I have so much at four currently 2) deat touch tokens are hard to deal with and can easily punch through courser and Caryatid while defending me quite well 3) the deck is primarily GB based meaning that she is actually something that could go online as a creature.
2 Endless Obedience - I am hesitant due to its cost as well as it being a noncreature but at the same time I have been trying to find another source of reanimation to run maindeck. I need to give it a shot though as I think the convoke actually makes it a lot more reasonable to cast and I do need to play with what removal and how much I play mainboard.
The list at this point would look like this:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
2 Hornet Queen
2 Necropolis Fiend
SPELLS (12)
4 Commune with the Gods
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Murderous Cut
2 Endless Obedience
3 Flooded Strand
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Plains
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
4 Opulent Palace
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Necropolis Fiend
2 Nylea's Disciple
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Soul of Innistrad
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Sagu Mauler
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[Modern] Allies
Three extremely busy days later, I think this list is a little better. A suggestion would be maybe run 1 Soul of Innistrad MB. Soul of Innistrad isn't very good in my list because Sidisi is the only creature I want casted from my hand later in the game. However, with all these Rhinos and Wingmate Rocs, it'd be pretty amazing after you held up mana for removal and they did nothing, allowing you to reload. I'd cut both Necropolis fiend, as in testing he really hasn't been that good. The key to really good reanimator decks is to have a huge impact as soon as it hits the board and I think Ashen Rider would give you a much more powerful bomb. Also goes great with Endless Obedience
If you want a better matchup against other Abzan decks, run Rescue from the Underworld in the sideboard. If they try to Abzan charm your Rhino, and you sac it with Rescue, then bring back something nasty with it, you basically win the game.
So overall I'd suggest testing:
MB:
-2 Necropolis
+1 Ashen Rider
+1 Soul of Inn.
SB:
-1 Soul of Inn.
-1 Necropolis Fiend
+2 Rescue from the Underworld
All three of my losses at states were to decks running heavy creatures and ended up mostly killing me via Stormbreath Dragon. In my own experience so far he is really strong against creature heavy removal light decks. He also gives me more removal in my list without using as many spells in deck which is a good thing. When against dragon heavy removal light decks the roc gets a lot worse and the fiends become much stronger. He also really helps my Sidisi to swing out as I can make any 5/5s smaller than her just off of her own trigger assuming they block. Where the Necropolis Fiend shines is against the creature heavy removal light lists. Where the roc shines tends to be against more removal heavy lists.
There is also the fact that Ashen Rider costs a lot of mana and realistically its unlikely I pay the full mana to play a Necropolis Fiend due to the delve he has.
Soul of Inn - I am looking to push one into the main as it stands. I just cant figure out what I want to move where to try to do it as of right now.
Rescue from the Underworld - I still personally don't care for the card.
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[Modern] Allies
I think courser of kruphix is really bad in this archetype. It does nothing to advance the overall strategy and is a terrible whip target. Just random goodstuff. Seems like a red herring.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
To me, its too slow still. If I were doing an all in on recursion plan it might be true but I am not running Satyr Wayfinder (because I feel he doesnt do enough). This list is still focused on midrange goodstuff to some extent and not 100% focused on reanimation as I feel that it runs stronger when someone inserts some removal focused on exiling your yard or taking out your recursion.
necropolis fiend - he has his pros and cons. I have been running 2-3 cuts for a while with 2 whips and I still see a ton of lands and noncreatures to exile in general. I feel like he gives me more removal in my list while being more interactive with my list than a Hero's Downfall offhand.
empty the pits - I pushed it arround for a while. To be honest I dont like it much for a few reasons. 1) its bad when you mill into it. Including it sort of means you probably need to run 2x Nyx Weaver as well at least to recover it. 2) I only wanted it against control decks and heavier value midrange decks. These still have a problem though where against the control decks they might just keep counters up so its still really hard to resolve against them especially if you have to recover it from the bin which was my experience too often.
courser of kruphix - I have actually found that he interacts quite profitably with Sidisi, Brood Tyrant and Commune with the Gods as he gives you future knowledge of what you might be binning and whenever you screw with your library it gives him another shot at value. It is true that he doesn't value well from the graveyard but he does gain value quite well just on his own.
4 whip is sort of heavy handed in my mind. I did run three of them for a while in an earlier version of this deck but I find that relying on it less made my deck better. I don't want to curve into a whip generally speaking in my list because I am not milling as hard. Even in a list that is milling hard though I suspect that you would not want to play more than three outside of the assumption that everyone is running heavy spot removal. Running heavier on whip seems like a deckbuilding decision that will likely also want you to run heavier on self milling. I am not running as heavy on self milling as you are which also results in me not running as many whip.
Pharika - the deck is green black based so animating her seems like something I could easily hit. She acts more as removal than anything against fellow midrange decks because 1/1 deathtouchers are a pain to deal with. I dont plan to swarm the board with deathtouch tokens by any means but I can hit her off of a lot of the creature interaction effects in the deck which I like and animating her should be something I can do.
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[Modern] Allies
I agree with a few things said here, but remember that some cards are only good in some versions of the archetype.
For example, Empty the pits is much better in the all-in Sultai version, as you can actually pop it off with a good amount of zombies much easier early so it's not dead nearly as often. I could see it not being in Abzan-based decks.
I also agree that Necropolis Fiend is not worth the slots, but I run Sultai charms and can reanimate Hornets much easier in an all-in style deck so I don't need him as an answer to Stormbreath, so I can see where ISB is coming from here.
I also agree that 4 whip is too much. If you rely only on whip, it's much easier for them to board in answers to just whip and just lose game 2-3. Hence why I run 3 Whip and 3 Endless to great success in my Sultai all-in list.
Ashen Rider is a house and one of the main reasons this archetype is worth doing, but if he doesn't want to run them, that's fine.
Lastly, Courser of Kruphix is fine in either list because in Abzan they grind a little more, and in Sultai they have a lot more deck interaction and it's very easy to generate easy CA. I run 2, and it's been great since I never see more than one.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
2 Hornet Queen
2 Necropolis Fiend
SPELLS (12)
4 Commune with the Gods
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Murderous Cut
2 Endless Obedience
3 Flooded Strand
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Plains
1 Island
1 Mana Confluence
4 Opulent Palace
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Yavimaya Coast
3 Bloodsoaked Champion
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
3 Reclamation Sage
2 Dictate of Erebos
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Necropolis Fiend
Match 1: Temur Midrange with a little more control to it
Game 1
I curved well and he did not.
Game 2
He hit a turn 2 Sylvan Caryatid, T3 Savage Knuckleblade with haste T4 Savage Knuckleblade with haste. I couldn't stabilize and I died.
Game 3
We sort of stalemated with some fatties in play that I could not punch through, I managed to get a Sidisi out as well. He played a Hornet Queen which I swung all into. He blocked them and I flashed out a Dictate of Erebos which snowballed the rest of his guys. From there I played my own Hornet Queen which came back to win the game for me. He later revealed that he had a Curse of the Swine and Unravel the Aether the turn that I blew him out with the Dictate of Erebos but he had tapped out for the Hornet Queen assuming it would cover.
Match 2: UB Control
Game 1
I went first and my opponent had his second land drop as an ETB tapped land. I played a Pharika, God of Affliction when I knew he could not counter it. I pushed a few creatures arround from there making some of them into snakes as well. I got a somewhat early Whip of Erebos to land and from there managed to just chain Sidisi together off of the whip which really wore him out. He attempted to flash in a Pearl Lake Ancient to block later on against a whipped Rhino which I happened to have a Murderous Cut for with my two mana up. This closed out the game.
Game 2
I brought in my Bloodsoaked Champion and Soul of Innistrad against him. I open with a turn one Bloodsoaked Champion to my opponents surprise. I manage to poke him a few times with it and the turn he drops an answer on it I happen to have topdecked a Pharika, God of Affliction which I drop in behind his removal. From here I try a few threats which he shoots down. I use them to fuel snake tokens which reanimate the Champion. The snakes and champs force him to play his removal on awkard targets. I manage to get access to all three of my champs in this game and I just whittle him down. He ends up playing a late game Prognostic Sphinx which I Murderous Cut to tap it and kill him.
**Note** I did manage to catch him by surprise with my Bloodsoaked Champion sideboarding. He did have Jorubai Murk Lurker and I knew he did but I also assumed he would not be bringing them in as he did not know about the Champions. Game three and or replay will have more issues against this deck with him knowing about these next time.
Match 3: Temur Midrange Devotion Green
Game 1 we both get a slow opener. He sees his action and I don't. He takes me out with a Nylea,God of the Hunt + Polukranos, World Eater.
Game 2 I manage to curve fairly well and happened to see a good amount of removal at the right times. I manage to dismantle most of what he puts in and win off of the back of a Necropolis Fiend who ended up eating two important creatures for me.
Game 3 he keeps a really loose hand of 7 and doesn't curve into his lands. I just run him over after mulliganning down to 5.
So, it was a lot of fun. Its not really that significant of data by any means as it was a small event but the deck did well for me. From this testing I guess I have some feedback on a few cards:
Pharika, God of Affliction its definately stronger against the creature heavy builds. I really enjoyed having access to the death touch tokens from her. Even against the control decks it let me utilize some of the creatures I had no plan to bring back like Coursers and Caryatid to give me a little damage boost and the tokens did well for enabling raid for me against the control decks. She is a bit slow to turn on as a creature but against the decks that gum up the ground with creatures it happened a decent bit against giving me a good attacker / blocker with her as well as the access to the deathtouch tokens.
Necropolis Fiend there are a good number of midrange decks in my meta that dont pack heavy removal. He comes in sooner than the Hornet Queen due to his delve and gives me access to a lot of direct removal for utility creatures which I like. I found him useful more often than not to be honest. I suspect if I saw more Abzan in my meta it would be less good for me but I am seeing a lot of green devotion and Temur currently.
Endless Obedience I recall drawing it something like twice and I cant recall ever casting it. Most of the time when I was "seeing" it from milling through it. I really have no data one way or another and need to test it further right now.
Bloodsoaked Champion in the board they do great against control decks. I knew that there were a few people in my meta who like playing heavier control decks which is why I packed them in. They give me some good value in poking power and they mill really great. They seem like they could even be an option coming in with the Dictate of Erebos against some slower midrange decks. They run into Caryatid and Courser all day though which is unfortunate which is why they are sideboarded.
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[Modern] Allies
2 Endless Obedience -> 2 Rescue from the Underworld I just want to see how they operate on the flip side. I have a lot of ETB sort of creatures that tend to take the focus of removal so the idea of dropping a value generating creature and getting a second good target back at the same time seems to be good stuff. I honestly, am not sure about this change yet as its a little bit odd in the fact that its generally a response based effect to removal but its so expensive that your opponent sort of needs to wait for you to try to use something. Its sort of slow though if you use it on your turn as well but I don't think there is enough graveyard hate at the moment to worry too much about that. Like I said, this one is a bit of a puzzle to me yet as I am not sold entirely on either one of these effects but I want to just sort of test things.
1 Plains -> 1 Forest I am just seeing a little more white than I want to right now. I did cut into the quantity of the whingmate rocks lately and I think it affects how much I want to see plains due to that. Green is very important in my early game so while I considered a nonbasic green I decided that I like lands that don't hurt me but I needed more green access.
SIDBOARD
1 Drown in Sorrow -> 1 Doomwake Giant I had a few games against opposing Hornet Queens where I thought about the quantity of Drown I run in my list. Due to how many creatures Drown affects I tend to only bring it in against faster aggro decks so I thought I could move this about a little and have some better versatility against mirror type decks who also run the queen. Overall, this move is a little weaker against aggro decks but I haven't been seeing much of that of late so I think this is a good move.
The reflecting list looks like this:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
2 Hornet Queen
2 Necropolis Fiend
SPELLS (12)
4 Commune with the Gods
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Murderous Cut
2 Rescue from the Underworld
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mana Confluence
4 Opulent Palace
2 Plains
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Yavimaya Coast
3 Bloodsoaked Champion
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
3 Reclamation Sage
2 Dictate of Erebos
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Necropolis Fiend
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[Modern] Allies