I've only played the Pilgrim version in this standard. I do agree that it adds consistency, giving us 4 virtual copies of every aura in the deck. The ability to tutor up the one to fit the specific circumstance has been very good for me. The 3 drop heroic guys just don't seem necessary.
Pilgrim allows 4 virtual copies of every aura, that is, until Ashiok exiles away all your win conditions. I switched back away from Pilgrim and have been happy. I ain't goin back neither.
For anyone that is interested in the non-pilgrim version, last weekend Zach Jesse made the Top 8 of the SCG Open in Seattle with a pilgrim-less list. He ended up going 14-1 in the rounds, and finished 3rd in the Top 8.
On Reddit he had this to say about running a non-pilgrim version:
Quote from Zach Jesse »
I think the biggest way in which not playing Heliod's Pilgrim impacts the deck is that you're obliged to run more Aqueous Forms. Aqueous Form is a great way to close out games quickly, and if you're not able to tutor for them, you should be prepared to draw them naturally ... with 4 Aqueous Forms and 4 Battlewise Hoplites, you can get in a lot of scrying to dig for answers to problems or, more often the case, to maintain the momentum needed to win.
Thanks for posting this. His list is almost identical to the list I've been tearing up mtgo with for a while now. I feel validated.
I even ran Triton Tactics main for a while until I switched to more Stubborn Denial. My sideboard is way different though.
Very interesting, I always thought the main goal is to get Hero of Iroas in early and just go YOLO with it by pumping cheap ordeals/double ordeals and steam rolling the enemy from there. But I always had problem with consistency. Unfortunately I only realised Battlewise hoplite's scrying power from my past few games (forced to play them because I didn't have Hero of Iroas in my starting hands). Man, I wonder how many more games I could have salvaged if I prioritised on battlewise hoplite instead. Not to mention that playing the non pilgrim version, I can afford to place an early aqueous form to scry every single turn until I run out of protection spells which is crazy.
Ultra you are my hero posting that. I've been playing pilgrimless but with a slightly different build using 2 fabled hero. Gonna try his out after finishing up reading/watching the links you posted.
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Trying to make crappy pet cards work since 2002.
I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
Swap the 2 Seeker of the Way for another Trailblazer and Ordeal of Heliod and we have the same maindeck. Good to see someone else running 3 Stubborn Denials main. I don't think there's any particular disadvantage to it; most of the relevant decks in Standard right now are at least 50% noncreature, sans Whip decks.
The disadvantage is that against better players, it's not nearly as effective if you are on the draw. You can have hands full of denials, and not enough creatures/heroic enablers, so ferocious doesn't get turned on. If you aren't applying pressure to them, they just play around it and delay the important stuff by a turn. It does nothing to stop courser/siege rhino, so they can blank your 2/2 guys immediately.
Don't get me wrong, the card is good. It's just not great in all situations, which is why it's been a sideboard card. A lot of decks bring in more removal against us in games 2/3, so bringing them in to combat that has been the standard procedure. I could see an argument for 2 main, but I'd rather have the 1st ajani's presence (making 7 protection spells that trigger heroic in the main) in before I went to 3.
On a somewhat related note, the shift to 4 aqueous form maindeck and reducing/eliminating pilgrims is an interesting one. If you don't replace the pilgrims with any other 3 drops, you can also shave 1-2 lands. This increases the chances of drawing a protection spell early on, and that's certainly a valid tactic. With singing-bell strike being pretty bad right now against all the tokens running around, pilgrim may need to be reduced temporarily.
I mean, if the only thing you ever grab with them is an ordeal of thassa or aqueous form, then it's worth playing more aqueous forms and cutting it. By shifting to more 'business' by shaving lands, you don't need the ability to refuel mid-game as often (i.e. when you normally tutor up thassa with pilgrim) and you just draw into the aqueous forms instead of needing to tutor it up.
I can really get behind running 0 Pilgrims. Fabled hero will take this spot in testing this week. I usually hate drawing Pilgrims unless it is late-game.
I can really get behind running 0 Pilgrims. Fabled hero will take this spot in testing this week. I usually hate drawing Pilgrims unless it is late-game.
For me the problem with fabled hero is you'd rather battle mastery your big guy and swing for damage the same turn. I've experimented with fabled hero and most of the time I wish I could just battle mastery my big guy which often already has an aqueous form equipped too.
Eventually I switched out my fabled hero for a Pilgrim instead. I don't like the 3-4 Pilgrim version which runs only 1 aqueous form. For me it's too slow and as long as you only have 2 lands you almost can't use aqueous form, because of the Pilgrim (I guess you agree with me on this) But instead I experimented running 1 or 2, mainly acting as a 5th aqueous form or 3rd battle mastery (I run 4x aqueous form and 2x battle mastery) and in some situations save yourself with a tutored ordeal of heliod. It has worked wonders for me. Very often I have one of aqueous form and battle mastery in my hand and I can tutor for the other and surprise my opponent.
Aim is to place an early aqueous form on any creature, and abuse it's scrying power to get battle mastery/pilgrim/more protection etc If you can enchant your creature with battle mastery on by turn 4 or 5 with an aqueous form already in the battlefield and have a protection spell in hand it's almost a guaranteed win. This is very good in the current meta filled with whip decks because this deck wrecks them before they get a grip on the game.
Some things I have thought about but not experimented:
Taking out 1 Battle Mastery for 1 Stubborn Denial or Ajani's presence: It might actually save you some games when you have a counter spell mainboard or additional protection. But I'm not sure if it outweighs the games won as a result of battle mastery. In my opinion I would rather leave counter spells for sideboarded games because of the additional bile blights/drown in sorrows/end hostilities/banishing lights etc they sideboard in. We want to be as aggressive as possible.
Sideboard is far from perfect I think. Maybe you guys can give some advice (: I'm planning to add in 2 Mortal's Ardor and maybe 2 Hushwing Gryff once I get them.
I may gave a single Battle Mastery s try first. I ran the Tom Ross version for my store's Monday Standard and felt like I always had too many Pilgrims. Today after work I'll run a version without Pilgrim 1 less Seeker with a couple Fabled Hero, 2 More Forms and 1 Mastery and see how it runs.
I've been running one Fabled Hero instead of the Battle Mastery in the 0 Pilgrim deck and it has been a total all star when it comes down. It seems to put the opponent in a darned if you do darned if you don't situation where they either point their removal at the cheaper creature who is already buffed or the Hero who if they let live through their turn will probably kill them (spoiler alert: it did).
Won my monday standard tournament and he just wrecked house. I could see the reasoning for battle mastery, as I ran it in the pilgrim version, but I prefer have the creature as a back up plan.
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I've always had Fabled Hero in my deck and tbh I'm not that impressed with it. The 2 drops are already a little slower than you want and with only 20 lands it can be like turn 6 before FH can come down, even later if you want to protect him.
Battle Mastery seems a little more favorable since it pushes out a lot of damage as soon as it hits the table and it can get pretty cheap thanks to Hero of Iroas. It's been a card I've been considering for a while and I'd love to hear more about people's experience with it.
I ran 1 in my side for a long time, and brought it in almost every match. So, then I tried it in the main, but then the meta shifted a bit. Sultai reanimator has changed up their composition to give us a tougher match. Kiora sucks for us, and they are running more removal spells now, and since they can often murderous cut for 1 then hero's downfall in response to our protection spell.. they can kill your biggest guy most of the time. Then, between black zombies and green caryatids/coursers, they have a good way to block thru a protection spell to stall long enough to resolve a whip and put the game out of reach.
What used to be a practically auto-win when they ran 4 removal spells and commune with the gods, has become more about winning the coinflip.
So, slower effects aren't quite as strong anymore. We need to maximize our explosive starts and mana efficiency in the first 4 turns.
I'm now trying out the 20 land, no 3 drops version as a result. So far, if it gets a good starting hand, no one can beat it, but it's a bit inconsistent.
It seems like UW heroic is a known quantity now, and we aren't getting as many free wins anymore. Jeskai tokens is tough, our best matchups have moved closer to 60/40 rather then 80/20. Not sure the solution yet, and you can still win if you get just a little lucky. But, it's a far cry from the 'oops, I won an elite IQ' feel it had a few weeks ago.
edit: I will say, if you are gonna run the slower, more consistent version.. I like pilgrim + battle mastery more then I like fabled hero. I tried the heros out early on, over the eidolons of countless battles, and I didn't like them. They were often too slow, and too vulnerable (either tap out and they die, or wait till turn 5/6 when we hit our 4th land to play it with protection backup). Battle mastery on your 1 drop that you've buffed to a 4/5 was way better, and often cost 2 mana thanks to a hero of iroas.
That's what I came up with. I took tom ross deck and took out the eidolon of countless battles and a seeker of the way and added fabled hero. I just felt like countless battles was a horrible card in too many situations. It's bad to draw off the top and be your only creature, and I also felt like it was unimpressive many times to cast for 4 mana on a creature. I also think that heliod's pilgrim is totally awesome. Sure it's not getting in for damage but it brings a little consistency to an already inconsistent deck. With that said I think the deck is fun to play and rewards people who know how to squeeze extra value out of their cards. I just could not resist playing it since I traded literally all of my standard stuff away anyway and the deck cost next to nothing....lol
We already know about stance, and it's a great fit for this deck due to its casting cost. If it was only one W it would be beyond amazing but at 1 and a W is pretty meh. Could be a one of in side board, but honestly is a bigger weapon against us than a weapon we can use.
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I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
Anyway guys, Triton Tactics is an extremely underused and underrated card for UW Heroic now IMO. It helps you win races, acts as another form of removal and is also a heroic trigger (double heroic trigger if you have 2 creatures)
It's sneaking into lists, but it's still a little narrow so you rarely want more then 1 in the main. It's great when it works, but can't overload on that type of effect.
If some kind of red aggro deck started making a comeback, I'd say 1 main, 1 side. I always liked it there, especially since their removal is damage based. It's not great against Courser decks, as they don't normally want to attack unless they've already dealt with your guys. They are more defensive against us.
Triton Tactics is too cute for what this deck is trying to do which is really just get one threat at a time. Plus it's not super useful as protection in a meta that relies pretty heavily on deathtouch and hard removal instead of traditional combat to get rid of creatures. The only deck I see it being good against is RG Midrange/Monsters.
Anyways I'm kind of concerned for the future of the deck, so far neither blue or white seem to be getting much of anything in Fate Reforged. Will this deck still even be viable in FRF Type 2?
Man.. I love Todd Anderson, but I was on the verge of pulling my hair out a few times watching his UW heroic videos he just put up.
I dunno when he recorded them, but it really seemed like he was just trying the deck out and wasn't very familiar with it.
He admits to a big mistake in rd1 g1, but after that he has a couple spots where he says something like "I could hold up this protection spell.. but I'm just gonna go ahead and tap out to play another dude since even if he kills my bigger one, I can still beef up this other one" when his opponent could only play a single removal spell that turn. I understand mana efficiency, but when you can counter their spell, make the dude big enough to both outclass all their threats and do as much damage as the new creature would have anyways, it doesn't make sense. You aren't against crackling doom, you don't need to present multiple small threats, just one big unbeatable one.
Against the mono-red deck, he really doesn't realize you generally take a control role. You don't need to race, unless you have ordeal of heliod ready to go. You just make dudes with 3 toughness and eat their entire team, then you can swing lethal when they run out of cards.
I wish Tom Ross would do more videos, might get a decent showing of the tricks of UW heroic. Todd's better at midrangey strategies or after he's practiced a deck enough to really know it.
Anyways I'm kind of concerned for the future of the deck, so far neither blue or white seem to be getting much of anything in Fate Reforged. Will this deck still even be viable in FRF Type 2?
Honestly, while I'm obviously a big fan of the deck. It's not a classically 'good' deck, it only works because of how it fits into the current meta. Putting all your eggs in one basket is generally not a great idea. If control, or board wipes, were more popular this deck would be instantly hated out of the meta.
We aren't likely to get much, as the heroic mechanic and support for it were last block. It only popped up now as a bit of a fluke, really.
Valorous stance is 'ok' but once people try it out, they will probably realize it's not nearly as good in practice as it seems. Some kind of W/x aggro/token/heroic is likely the next closest deck to this that will do good.
Anyways I'm kind of concerned for the future of the deck, so far neither blue or white seem to be getting much of anything in Fate Reforged. Will this deck still even be viable in FRF Type 2?
Honestly, while I'm obviously a big fan of the deck. It's not a classically 'good' deck, it only works because of how it fits into the current meta. Putting all your eggs in one basket is generally not a great idea. If control, or board wipes, were more popular this deck would be instantly hated out of the meta.
We aren't likely to get much, as the heroic mechanic and support for it were last block. It only popped up now as a bit of a fluke, really.
Valorous stance is 'ok' but once people try it out, they will probably realize it's not nearly as good in practice as it seems. Some kind of W/x aggro/token/heroic is likely the next closest deck to this that will do good.
Still good enough to win an open I guess
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UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77507
4 Island
6 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mana Confluence
3 Temple of Enlightenment
Creatures [16]
4 Battlewise Hoplite
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Hero Of Iroas
2 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
2 Seeker of the Way
4 Aqueous Form
2 Ordeal of Heliod
4 Ordeal of Thassa
1 Stratus Walk
1 Ajani's Presence
4 Defiant Strike
2 Feat of Resistance
4 Gods Willing
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Triton Tactics
1 Ordeal of Heliod
1 Suspension Field
1 Hopeful Eidolon
2 Ajani's Presence
2 Erase
2 Mortal's Ardor
1 Negate
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Treasure Cruise
On Reddit he had this to say about running a non-pilgrim version:
Zach released a series of videos today of him playing the deck on MTGO:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ8jJjE1HR12sS_Zc1-sVPTagfhPCuBWC
Zach has also released a series of articles on The Meadery about the deck:
UW Heroic a Primer
Spell Choices in UW Heroic
UW Heroic Take Three
UW Heroic Take Four
He certainly has an entertaining style about him and a passion for UW Heroic. I particularly enjoyed the videos and the primer article.
I even ran Triton Tactics main for a while until I switched to more Stubborn Denial. My sideboard is way different though.
5 Island
6 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Enlightenment
Ceeartue (16)
4 Battlewise Hoplite
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Hero Of Iroas
2 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
2 Seeker of the Way
3 Aqueous Form
2 Ordeal of Heliod
4 Ordeal of Thassa
Instant (13)
4 Defiant Strike
2 Feat of Resistance
4 Gods Willing
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Ordeal of Heliod
2 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
2 Stratus Walk
3 Erase
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
Don't get me wrong, the card is good. It's just not great in all situations, which is why it's been a sideboard card. A lot of decks bring in more removal against us in games 2/3, so bringing them in to combat that has been the standard procedure. I could see an argument for 2 main, but I'd rather have the 1st ajani's presence (making 7 protection spells that trigger heroic in the main) in before I went to 3.
On a somewhat related note, the shift to 4 aqueous form maindeck and reducing/eliminating pilgrims is an interesting one. If you don't replace the pilgrims with any other 3 drops, you can also shave 1-2 lands. This increases the chances of drawing a protection spell early on, and that's certainly a valid tactic. With singing-bell strike being pretty bad right now against all the tokens running around, pilgrim may need to be reduced temporarily.
I mean, if the only thing you ever grab with them is an ordeal of thassa or aqueous form, then it's worth playing more aqueous forms and cutting it. By shifting to more 'business' by shaving lands, you don't need the ability to refuel mid-game as often (i.e. when you normally tutor up thassa with pilgrim) and you just draw into the aqueous forms instead of needing to tutor it up.
STANDARD
UB Midrange
Modern
U-Tron
For me the problem with fabled hero is you'd rather battle mastery your big guy and swing for damage the same turn. I've experimented with fabled hero and most of the time I wish I could just battle mastery my big guy which often already has an aqueous form equipped too.
Eventually I switched out my fabled hero for a Pilgrim instead. I don't like the 3-4 Pilgrim version which runs only 1 aqueous form. For me it's too slow and as long as you only have 2 lands you almost can't use aqueous form, because of the Pilgrim (I guess you agree with me on this) But instead I experimented running 1 or 2, mainly acting as a 5th aqueous form or 3rd battle mastery (I run 4x aqueous form and 2x battle mastery) and in some situations save yourself with a tutored ordeal of heliod. It has worked wonders for me. Very often I have one of aqueous form and battle mastery in my hand and I can tutor for the other and surprise my opponent.
Here's my current decklist:
2 Island
8 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Tranquil Cove
Creature (16)
4 Battlewise Hoplite
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Hero Of Iroas
2 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
2 Heliod's Pilgrim
4 Aqueous Form
2 Ordeal of Heliod
4 Ordeal of Thassa
2 Battle Mastery
Instant (10)
4 Defiant Strike
2 Feat of Resistance
4 Gods Willing
Sorcery (1)
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Ordeal of Heliod
1 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
2 Erase
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Negate
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Hopeful Eidolon
1 Triton Tactics
2 Ajani's Presence
1 Treasure Cruise
Aim is to place an early aqueous form on any creature, and abuse it's scrying power to get battle mastery/pilgrim/more protection etc If you can enchant your creature with battle mastery on by turn 4 or 5 with an aqueous form already in the battlefield and have a protection spell in hand it's almost a guaranteed win. This is very good in the current meta filled with whip decks because this deck wrecks them before they get a grip on the game.
Some things I have thought about but not experimented:
Taking out 1 Battle Mastery for 1 Stubborn Denial or Ajani's presence: It might actually save you some games when you have a counter spell mainboard or additional protection. But I'm not sure if it outweighs the games won as a result of battle mastery. In my opinion I would rather leave counter spells for sideboarded games because of the additional bile blights/drown in sorrows/end hostilities/banishing lights etc they sideboard in. We want to be as aggressive as possible.
Sideboard is far from perfect I think. Maybe you guys can give some advice (: I'm planning to add in 2 Mortal's Ardor and maybe 2 Hushwing Gryff once I get them.
STANDARD
UB Midrange
Modern
U-Tron
Won my monday standard tournament and he just wrecked house. I could see the reasoning for battle mastery, as I ran it in the pilgrim version, but I prefer have the creature as a back up plan.
I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
Battle Mastery seems a little more favorable since it pushes out a lot of damage as soon as it hits the table and it can get pretty cheap thanks to Hero of Iroas. It's been a card I've been considering for a while and I'd love to hear more about people's experience with it.
What used to be a practically auto-win when they ran 4 removal spells and commune with the gods, has become more about winning the coinflip.
So, slower effects aren't quite as strong anymore. We need to maximize our explosive starts and mana efficiency in the first 4 turns.
I'm now trying out the 20 land, no 3 drops version as a result. So far, if it gets a good starting hand, no one can beat it, but it's a bit inconsistent.
It seems like UW heroic is a known quantity now, and we aren't getting as many free wins anymore. Jeskai tokens is tough, our best matchups have moved closer to 60/40 rather then 80/20. Not sure the solution yet, and you can still win if you get just a little lucky. But, it's a far cry from the 'oops, I won an elite IQ' feel it had a few weeks ago.
edit: I will say, if you are gonna run the slower, more consistent version.. I like pilgrim + battle mastery more then I like fabled hero. I tried the heros out early on, over the eidolons of countless battles, and I didn't like them. They were often too slow, and too vulnerable (either tap out and they die, or wait till turn 5/6 when we hit our 4th land to play it with protection backup). Battle mastery on your 1 drop that you've buffed to a 4/5 was way better, and often cost 2 mana thanks to a hero of iroas.
4 favored hoplite
4 battlewise hoplite
4 hero of iroas
3 heliod's pilgrim
3 fabled hero
2 seeker of the way
spells
4 defiant strike
4 god's willing
2 feat of resistance
4 ordeal of thassa
1 ordeal of heliod
1 aqueous form
1 stratus walk
1 singing bell strike
4 flooded strand
4 temple of enlightenment
4 island
9 plains
1 mana confluence
1 aqueous form
3 stubborn denial
2 erase
2 glare of heresy
1 seeker of the way
1 treasure cruise
1 ordeal of heliod
1 Ajani's presence
3 lagonna-band trailblazer
That's what I came up with. I took tom ross deck and took out the eidolon of countless battles and a seeker of the way and added fabled hero. I just felt like countless battles was a horrible card in too many situations. It's bad to draw off the top and be your only creature, and I also felt like it was unimpressive many times to cast for 4 mana on a creature. I also think that heliod's pilgrim is totally awesome. Sure it's not getting in for damage but it brings a little consistency to an already inconsistent deck. With that said I think the deck is fun to play and rewards people who know how to squeeze extra value out of their cards. I just could not resist playing it since I traded literally all of my standard stuff away anyway and the deck cost next to nothing....lol
I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
If some kind of red aggro deck started making a comeback, I'd say 1 main, 1 side. I always liked it there, especially since their removal is damage based. It's not great against Courser decks, as they don't normally want to attack unless they've already dealt with your guys. They are more defensive against us.
Valorous Stance will become good if sweepers get used more but right now not needed.
Anyways I'm kind of concerned for the future of the deck, so far neither blue or white seem to be getting much of anything in Fate Reforged. Will this deck still even be viable in FRF Type 2?
UW Approach UW
EDH
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
I dunno when he recorded them, but it really seemed like he was just trying the deck out and wasn't very familiar with it.
He admits to a big mistake in rd1 g1, but after that he has a couple spots where he says something like "I could hold up this protection spell.. but I'm just gonna go ahead and tap out to play another dude since even if he kills my bigger one, I can still beef up this other one" when his opponent could only play a single removal spell that turn. I understand mana efficiency, but when you can counter their spell, make the dude big enough to both outclass all their threats and do as much damage as the new creature would have anyways, it doesn't make sense. You aren't against crackling doom, you don't need to present multiple small threats, just one big unbeatable one.
Against the mono-red deck, he really doesn't realize you generally take a control role. You don't need to race, unless you have ordeal of heliod ready to go. You just make dudes with 3 toughness and eat their entire team, then you can swing lethal when they run out of cards.
I wish Tom Ross would do more videos, might get a decent showing of the tricks of UW heroic. Todd's better at midrangey strategies or after he's practiced a deck enough to really know it.
Honestly, while I'm obviously a big fan of the deck. It's not a classically 'good' deck, it only works because of how it fits into the current meta. Putting all your eggs in one basket is generally not a great idea. If control, or board wipes, were more popular this deck would be instantly hated out of the meta.
We aren't likely to get much, as the heroic mechanic and support for it were last block. It only popped up now as a bit of a fluke, really.
Valorous stance is 'ok' but once people try it out, they will probably realize it's not nearly as good in practice as it seems. Some kind of W/x aggro/token/heroic is likely the next closest deck to this that will do good.