Yes, which is why I said it lets you go off from 0 cards in hand, which is sometimes relevant. Hammerhand does nothing for you, since when you're comboing you get to the point where you bounce all blockers anyhow. Twinflame gives your dudes haste, so that's not a problem either. I very strongly recommend no other extraneous wincon outside of twinflame since anything else is a dead card outside of the combo.
It may not let you get an extra card like Dragon Mantle, but I feel that the fact it can make your creatures unblockable and give one haste if you are bouncing it back to your hand with Retraction Helix makes it pretty viable.
I just see it as there being pros and cons to both of the cards. In the case of just two cards in your hand, Hammerhand/Dragon Mantle and Retraction Helix with Jeskai Ascendancy on the field, you can keep bouncing the HH to +X/+X your creatures and disable your opponent from blocking to get a rushing win or you could keep bouncing DM to your hand to draw cards and +X/+X your creatures to get a win while also casting Twin Flame?
I really like one of the decks that added Tormenting Voice. I also like Bassara Tower Archer. I ran it in board, but it might not be a bad mainboard. The artifact combo doesn't require a mana producer on board and with 1 extra mana it can use Purse for alt win con if Altar is pitched.
How are you bouncing blockers with Retraction Helix if your also bouncing the Dragon Mantle?
If you are going off with Dragon Mantle + Helix -- assuming you have the most basic set up of 2 dorks and an Ascendancy -- every additional Dragon Mantle or Helix or (Insert Whatever other 1 Mana Spells You may Play) nets you a mana or a retraction helix bounce. If you don't feel like thinking that hard about your combo turn, once you have infinite mana through your 0 mana artifact every spell you play is a retraction helix bounce.
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Evil is even, truth is an odd number, and death is a full stop.
Expanding on the each additional 1 mana spell, it also generates a mana with only 2 dudes, then you get to the point where you can cast a second ascendancy and Starr getting 2 untaps per mantle bounce, then you helix their blockers.
Edit: my point about hammerhand is that it doesnt do anything you're not able to do already with your cards that combo, with the additional drawback of not drawing a card naked if you need to force a combo that turn. The same is true of any wincon outside of twinflame, AND twinflame can make a combo happen with only one mana dude in play
So the idea with Dragon Mantle and Helix is to be playing more than just that one Dragon Mantle consistently once the combo takes off. Playing Retraction Helix, bouncing the Dragon Mantle you just played and got a card from, playing Dragon Mantle to untap and draw, bounce a blocker, play another 1 drop noncreature to untap, bounce Dragon Mantle back to your hand, etc, etc.
It almost seems like you're either new to the deck and/or have never played it before. Once you goldfish it a few times you find out all these things that sound weird. Trust and love friends, rejoice that combo is back and competitive.
So the idea with Dragon Mantle and Helix is to be playing more than just that one Dragon Mantle consistently once the combo takes off. Playing Retraction Helix, bouncing the Dragon Mantle you just played and got a card from, playing Dragon Mantle to untap and draw, bounce a blocker, play another 1 drop noncreature to untap, bounce Dragon Mantle back to your hand, etc, etc.
The biggest thing about Dragon Mantle is that you draw. That's really important because typically, you won't be able to go off with 0 cards in hand (or rather combo +1 card). On Saturday, I ran into some real bad matchups in which I was discarded 3 times in 2 losses and 2 times in another two losses. I was able to reassemble combo pieces in hand but with the card losses, I had to wait a round another turn. It's really hard to go off if you're getting discarded without Dragon Mantle imo.
Has anyone looked at/tried out Warden of the Eye? With it's inclusion, you can run both Commune with the Gods and Taigam's Scheming, increasing the consistency and selection of the deck while further fueling Dig through Time. But the best part of the card is that it adds a new combo! Twinflame and Warden are pretty fantastic together, enabling all the 3/3s you can pay for and an infinite combo with two mana creatures and Jeskai Ascendancy!
I don't know if the numbers on this deck are right, it's possible I should be playing some Tormenting Voices and a couple cantrips instead of the whole playset of Taigam's Scheming, but I sure like the way the deck looks. I would love some feedback!
Warden of the Eye is definitely an interesting idea. It seems like it shares the same space as the Nissa that Lee Shi Tian played: a late game card that increases resiliency while also functioning as a combo piece. While it's cool that there is another infinite combo with Warden, my only concern is that the games where you have 2 living mana dorks and an ascendancy are the ones you win 90% of the time anyways. Tormenting Voice has been very good for me, I would try a 2-2 Scheming Voice split and see if you like it. Definitely test out your list though, I'm interested how Warden performs!
I also like the Bassara Tower Archer sideboard plan that someone posted earlier. Maybe its even possible to add some Karametra's Favor to the maindeck and try to go off strictly with hexproof guys.
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Evil is even, truth is an odd number, and death is a full stop.
the mana's a total mess right now so I left it out. I really like going down to just 1 Twinflame as a win condition. I don't want to see any wincon until I'm going off, and at least Twinflame does other things.
it's performed about as well as I expected in testing, but I need to compare it to other versions so that may take some time
Hi guys,
I've been experimenting with these decks since they first started popping up after the spoilers.
I've been testing with Lee Shi Tian's list most recently.
I can't post a link due to not having enough posts, but google 'Lee Shi Tian jeskai' and it'll be the first result.
I'm trying to find a card to replace commune with the gods - It's a good card, but it feels like I'm digging away many of my win conditions / combo enablers (Twinflame, Dig, Retraction Helix, Briber's Purse, Tormenting Voice etc.) There've been plenty of times where I've been able to find a necessary mana dork with Commune, but there's been just as many times if not more where I throw away vital pieces.
I think in an enchantment heavy build this makes sense since you'd be able to fetch a higher percentage of your deck, but would something like Divination work better?
Previously I was running the 'astronomy storm' build which I feel works much smoother, but Tian's list is definitely more explosive if a little less consistent. Still not sure which I like better, but I'm definitely not as practiced with playing the Tian build.
I'm trying to find a card to replace commune with the gods - It's a good card, but it feels like I'm digging away many of my win conditions / combo enablers (Twinflame, Dig, Retraction Helix, Briber's Purse, Tormenting Voice etc.) There've been plenty of times where I've been able to find a necessary mana dork with Commune, but there's been just as many times if not more where I throw away vital pieces.
I think either adding/increasing some # of the following cards would be better IMO.
Taigam's sceming seems like the closest fit (though I just noticed Lee Shi wasn't running cruise either), though there are pro's and con's depending on the match up.
It's not that I'm getting confused as to why Dragon Mantle is so important, but I'm just feeling that Hammerhand can bring about just as much as a win con as Dragon Mantle with Retraction Helix without the need of another cheap instant/sorcery to play. I could be wrong, but I believe I like that variation and see how it plays against.
It's not that I'm getting confused as to why Dragon Mantle is so important, but I'm just feeling that Hammerhand can bring about just as much as a win con as Dragon Mantle with Retraction Helix without the need of another cheap instant/sorcery to play. I could be wrong, but I believe I like that variation and see how it plays against.
Dragon Mantle allows you to draw as many cards a you want. Each time you cast it you draw a card. You can draw to seven then utilize the ascendency. That is assuming that you can bounce it once the combo has been assembled. Two guys with one being a mana dork will do the trick. The card draw allows you to dig for any card that you might need. Does that make sense?
It's not that I'm getting confused as to why Dragon Mantle is so important, but I'm just feeling that Hammerhand can bring about just as much as a win con as Dragon Mantle with Retraction Helix without the need of another cheap instant/sorcery to play. I could be wrong, but I believe I like that variation and see how it plays against.
The actual win con is really unimportant at that point though. You can draw your whole deck, make infinite mana, bounce their whole board, and have a pile of infinitely large creatures. The biggest difficulty this deck has is assembling ascendancy and 1-2 mana dorks, not finding a win condition. Dragon Mantle digs you a card deeper which can really make a difference in finding whatever you're looking for pre-combo turn.
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Evil is even, truth is an odd number, and death is a full stop.
As I said, "it's not that I'm getting confused". I just don't see how Hammerhand isn't as viable, or at least how is it trash? Yes, it doesn't provide card draw on it's own, but it can be a game winner too.
Playing Hammerhand with Retraction Helix and Jeskai Ascendancy looks just as good as Dragon Mantle to me.
As I said, "it's not that I'm getting confused". I just don't see how Hammerhand isn't as viable, or at least how is it trash? Yes, it doesn't provide card draw on it's own, but it can be a game winner too.
Playing Hammerhand with Retraction Helix and Jeskai Ascendancy looks just as good as Dragon Mantle to me.
It's just not a needed card.
There are lots of ways to win, so the general assumption is that when you are going off you are going to win with one of those solutions. Which win conditions won't be totally (or nearly dead)outside of going off.
I won't say +1/+1 is never useful, but fire breathing and drawing to your combo is just a lot more useful most of the time then Hammerhand will be when your not going off.
Playing Hammerhand with Retraction Helix and Jeskai Ascendancy looks just as good as Dragon Mantle to me.
When you have all the pieces it doesn't matter what you use to kill them. When you have two dorks and an Ascendancy in play and your hand is 2 lands and a Dragon Mantle and you're going to die if you don't combo off that turn, that's when the cantrip part of Dragon Mantle is a big deal.
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Evil is even, truth is an odd number, and death is a full stop.
the point is why are you playing a card that essentially reads "R: spend one red mana" at any time you're not comboing?
dragon mantle is "R: draw a card" when you're not comboing.
when you are comboing, it doesn't matter what card you use, but it's better to have cards that make your deck better and more focused overall rather than literal dead cards except for when you're already winning.
tl;dr card is garbage because it does nothing unless you're already winning
Hi guys,
I've been experimenting with these decks since they first started popping up after the spoilers.
I've been testing with Lee Shi Tian's list most recently.
I can't post a link due to not having enough posts, but google 'Lee Shi Tian jeskai' and it'll be the first result.
I'm trying to find a card to replace commune with the gods - It's a good card, but it feels like I'm digging away many of my win conditions / combo enablers (Twinflame, Dig, Retraction Helix, Briber's Purse, Tormenting Voice etc.) There've been plenty of times where I've been able to find a necessary mana dork with Commune, but there's been just as many times if not more where I throw away vital pieces.
I think in an enchantment heavy build this makes sense since you'd be able to fetch a higher percentage of your deck, but would something like Divination work better?
Previously I was running the 'astronomy storm' build which I feel works much smoother, but Tian's list is definitely more explosive if a little less consistent. Still not sure which I like better, but I'm definitely not as practiced with playing the Tian build.
commune finds the most important parts of the combo, as well as fueling the graveyard for delve. you have 20 hits with it if you're playing 12 dorks 4 ascendancy 4 dragon mantle, which is enough to hit with commune far more often than not. sure, there are times when you mill some cool stuff like dig/helix/twinflame, but unless you mill all of your twinflames (which you should be playing at least 3), you're getting a ton of value out of it.
Nylea's Presence is the weakest card in the deck, looking at replacements. Probably the 4th dig through time and 2x treasure cruise, with an outside shot at the 4th twinflame and/or a 0cmc artifact making it in. I would give the nod to cornucopia since you can cast it turn 3 with a turn 2 dork, play a scry land, and have enough mana to do essentially whatever you want.
Scrylands are insane, and are a great form of digging that has been glossed over in light of the decks coming out of the PT. This mana base is incredible and I have yet to have trouble casting spells. Occasionally you have turn 1 scry turn 2 scry but even in those situations you've set up your deck in a better spot than it would be otherwise.
Maindeck is extremely solid and will go off turn 4 or 5 about 85-90% of the time, even through mulligans. Steam Augury is really good and lets you outplay your opponents, and function essentially as a dig through time/commune hybrid. The sideboard is set up for a few purposes - primarily swan song and restock come in vs thoughtseize and light permission decks, also negate if they have a lot of countermagic/utter end/deicide/anger of the gods/hero's downfall/drown in sorrow etc. Circle of Flame is for the hyper aggressive decks in the format, just to buy you enough time to combo since otherwise they don't interact with you other than life total. Steam Augury, satyr, and the 0cmc come in against decks you want to goldfish on, mono g devotion and the like. The goal is to combo off as fast as possible and since they don't interact with you in any meaningful way, you add ways to combo faster. I've been sideboarding out all of the presences, which is the biggest reason i'm dropping them from the deck, and usually 1x helix and up to 2 mystics for the blue spells. The reason I don't have any 0 cmc main is because I was sideboarding them out every game and not needing them at all to combo off.
Deck is very resilient, very powerful, and very consistently a turn 4/5 even through disruption.
I've heard that mana burn is no longer around in the tournaments, is that true? Just asking because of an X CMC Mindswipe combo if that is at all possible. Yes, it would through any opponent off guard at first and may keep them from playing any spells at first thought, but it wouldn't really matter since you could still hit your opponent with the burn?
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If you are going off with Dragon Mantle + Helix -- assuming you have the most basic set up of 2 dorks and an Ascendancy -- every additional Dragon Mantle or Helix or (Insert Whatever other 1 Mana Spells You may Play) nets you a mana or a retraction helix bounce. If you don't feel like thinking that hard about your combo turn, once you have infinite mana through your 0 mana artifact every spell you play is a retraction helix bounce.
Edit: my point about hammerhand is that it doesnt do anything you're not able to do already with your cards that combo, with the additional drawback of not drawing a card naked if you need to force a combo that turn. The same is true of any wincon outside of twinflame, AND twinflame can make a combo happen with only one mana dude in play
The biggest thing about Dragon Mantle is that you draw. That's really important because typically, you won't be able to go off with 0 cards in hand (or rather combo +1 card). On Saturday, I ran into some real bad matchups in which I was discarded 3 times in 2 losses and 2 times in another two losses. I was able to reassemble combo pieces in hand but with the card losses, I had to wait a round another turn. It's really hard to go off if you're getting discarded without Dragon Mantle imo.
Warden of the Eye is definitely an interesting idea. It seems like it shares the same space as the Nissa that Lee Shi Tian played: a late game card that increases resiliency while also functioning as a combo piece. While it's cool that there is another infinite combo with Warden, my only concern is that the games where you have 2 living mana dorks and an ascendancy are the ones you win 90% of the time anyways. Tormenting Voice has been very good for me, I would try a 2-2 Scheming Voice split and see if you like it. Definitely test out your list though, I'm interested how Warden performs!
I also like the Bassara Tower Archer sideboard plan that someone posted earlier. Maybe its even possible to add some Karametra's Favor to the maindeck and try to go off strictly with hexproof guys.
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Kiora's Follower
2 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Taigam's Scheming
4 Dig Through Time
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Dragon Mantle
4 Retraction Helix
1 Astral Cornucopia
1 Briber's Purse
1 Twinflame
the mana's a total mess right now so I left it out. I really like going down to just 1 Twinflame as a win condition. I don't want to see any wincon until I'm going off, and at least Twinflame does other things.
it's performed about as well as I expected in testing, but I need to compare it to other versions so that may take some time
I've been experimenting with these decks since they first started popping up after the spoilers.
I've been testing with Lee Shi Tian's list most recently.
I can't post a link due to not having enough posts, but google 'Lee Shi Tian jeskai' and it'll be the first result.
I'm trying to find a card to replace commune with the gods - It's a good card, but it feels like I'm digging away many of my win conditions / combo enablers (Twinflame, Dig, Retraction Helix, Briber's Purse, Tormenting Voice etc.) There've been plenty of times where I've been able to find a necessary mana dork with Commune, but there's been just as many times if not more where I throw away vital pieces.
I think in an enchantment heavy build this makes sense since you'd be able to fetch a higher percentage of your deck, but would something like Divination work better?
Previously I was running the 'astronomy storm' build which I feel works much smoother, but Tian's list is definitely more explosive if a little less consistent. Still not sure which I like better, but I'm definitely not as practiced with playing the Tian build.
I think either adding/increasing some # of the following cards would be better IMO.
Taigam's sceming seems like the closest fit (though I just noticed Lee Shi wasn't running cruise either), though there are pro's and con's depending on the match up.
Dragon Mantle allows you to draw as many cards a you want. Each time you cast it you draw a card. You can draw to seven then utilize the ascendency. That is assuming that you can bounce it once the combo has been assembled. Two guys with one being a mana dork will do the trick. The card draw allows you to dig for any card that you might need. Does that make sense?
The actual win con is really unimportant at that point though. You can draw your whole deck, make infinite mana, bounce their whole board, and have a pile of infinitely large creatures. The biggest difficulty this deck has is assembling ascendancy and 1-2 mana dorks, not finding a win condition. Dragon Mantle digs you a card deeper which can really make a difference in finding whatever you're looking for pre-combo turn.
Playing Hammerhand with Retraction Helix and Jeskai Ascendancy looks just as good as Dragon Mantle to me.
It's just not a needed card.
There are lots of ways to win, so the general assumption is that when you are going off you are going to win with one of those solutions. Which win conditions won't be totally (or nearly dead)outside of going off.
I won't say +1/+1 is never useful, but fire breathing and drawing to your combo is just a lot more useful most of the time then Hammerhand will be when your not going off.
When you have all the pieces it doesn't matter what you use to kill them. When you have two dorks and an Ascendancy in play and your hand is 2 lands and a Dragon Mantle and you're going to die if you don't combo off that turn, that's when the cantrip part of Dragon Mantle is a big deal.
dragon mantle is "R: draw a card" when you're not comboing.
when you are comboing, it doesn't matter what card you use, but it's better to have cards that make your deck better and more focused overall rather than literal dead cards except for when you're already winning.
tl;dr card is garbage because it does nothing unless you're already winning
commune finds the most important parts of the combo, as well as fueling the graveyard for delve. you have 20 hits with it if you're playing 12 dorks 4 ascendancy 4 dragon mantle, which is enough to hit with commune far more often than not. sure, there are times when you mill some cool stuff like dig/helix/twinflame, but unless you mill all of your twinflames (which you should be playing at least 3), you're getting a ton of value out of it.
4x Mana Confluence
2x Temple of Abandon
4x Temple of Mystery
3x Temple of Plenty
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x Kiora's Follower
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Dig Through Time
4x Retraction Helix
2x Steam Augury
4x Jeskai Ascendancy
3x Nylea's Presence
4x Commune with the Gods
3x Twinflame
4x Circle of Flame
2x Negate
1x Restock
1x Steam Augury
4x Swan Song
1x Voyaging Satyr
Nylea's Presence is the weakest card in the deck, looking at replacements. Probably the 4th dig through time and 2x treasure cruise, with an outside shot at the 4th twinflame and/or a 0cmc artifact making it in. I would give the nod to cornucopia since you can cast it turn 3 with a turn 2 dork, play a scry land, and have enough mana to do essentially whatever you want.
Scrylands are insane, and are a great form of digging that has been glossed over in light of the decks coming out of the PT. This mana base is incredible and I have yet to have trouble casting spells. Occasionally you have turn 1 scry turn 2 scry but even in those situations you've set up your deck in a better spot than it would be otherwise.
Maindeck is extremely solid and will go off turn 4 or 5 about 85-90% of the time, even through mulligans. Steam Augury is really good and lets you outplay your opponents, and function essentially as a dig through time/commune hybrid. The sideboard is set up for a few purposes - primarily swan song and restock come in vs thoughtseize and light permission decks, also negate if they have a lot of countermagic/utter end/deicide/anger of the gods/hero's downfall/drown in sorrow etc. Circle of Flame is for the hyper aggressive decks in the format, just to buy you enough time to combo since otherwise they don't interact with you other than life total. Steam Augury, satyr, and the 0cmc come in against decks you want to goldfish on, mono g devotion and the like. The goal is to combo off as fast as possible and since they don't interact with you in any meaningful way, you add ways to combo faster. I've been sideboarding out all of the presences, which is the biggest reason i'm dropping them from the deck, and usually 1x helix and up to 2 mystics for the blue spells. The reason I don't have any 0 cmc main is because I was sideboarding them out every game and not needing them at all to combo off.
Deck is very resilient, very powerful, and very consistently a turn 4/5 even through disruption.