Sodek, congratulations on winning the Trial! And yes, I'm having a tough time beating mono red and Esper so I may have to put down the combo for a little while. I even lost to a GW aggro deck last night for Game Day when he happened to have double Dromoka's Command to my one Swan Song.
Valonus, Caryatid is a big reason for playing 4 colors. If you plan on playing this particular version without them, I would up the land count to 22 lands and try playing more Ojutai's Command to get back your mana dudes from the graveyard. Still gonna have tough matchups against the current iterations of mono red and the dragon control decks, though.
Ojutai's Command is quite bad in this deck. There aren't many targets for reanimation, and when I was testing it I nearly always wanted to play something diffrent than UW Command. As Kanister said Dig Through Time is this deck powerhouse, playing with other, weaker cards is a mistake.
And I got nice idea - instead of Ny Fleece Ram as another creature for combo we should play 3-4 Raise the Alarm. Sometimes we can combo on 1/1 guy, but often it's "Counterspell" for Foul-Tongue Invocation and soldiers are nice blockers against red decks. Sometimes can even kill Rabblemaster in blocks! Also triggers Ascendancy
@kanister
I ran your list on Gameday with some slight changes and got 4th
main deck
- 1 taigams schemeing
+ temple of triumph
side
- sarkhan
- reviving melody
+2 ojutai's command
The command is great instant speed get back ram or caryatid end of turn untap and go off
I played this list in all its stages and I think you nailed it as far as consistancey is concerned love the list dude.
Don't cut Scheming, it's best card to dig for elements during combo turn, it is the best at making delve and set up combo. If u really want to put 22th land cut Treasre Cruise or Commune of the Gods. And land should add blue mana, becouse is the most important for deck consistency.
Well, now I have questions. Specifically "Why would you ever play Temur Charm?"
I concur with Sodek re: Ojutai's Command. In my testing last week it mostly just sat uselessly in my hand. I only cast it once and it was after I had already comboed and just wanted to get back my dead Den Protector.
It looks like the list tw0as found has a transformational sideboard, turning into more of a midrangy Temur deck. I guess Temur Charm fits his plan.
I currently play 1 Ojutai's Command main deck because everyone at my LGS tends to take my Caryatid if they hit me with an early Thoughtseize. I've won games with EOT command into Caryatid and draw a card into the combo. Also it opens up a line of play where you can put Caryatid or Den Protector into your graveyard off Scheming and dig deeper into your deck for combo pieces.
I understand not playing Ojutai's Command, though. My personal preference is to present a diverse set of threats.
Indeed Negate does cost two mana less, but I'm saying I maindeck Ojutai's Command as all 4 modes can be useful Game 1 as a one of. Then we can bring in Negates out of the sideboard if we are against Esper Control. I just like having options, even if it makes the deck weaker in terms of consistency, like Sodek says.
I think the Japanese decklist just highlights how the core combo just gets free wins. Omenspeaker I found to be an interesting choice, though not one I would play myself. This deck tends to win a large share of Game 1's against GR monsters or GW devotion or even Jeskai Tempo decks, so sometimes you just get the right matchups.
I'm still leery of playing fetches alongside Anticipate and Dig Through Time. Part of the power of this deck is knowing what cards you've sent to the bottom and calculating the odds of digging for your last combo piece. Wooded Foothills and Windswept Heath I have found to be odd fits. Anytime you search for Forest, that is a land that cannot tap for Ascendancy or Dig which came up often in my playtesting.
I'm not a fan of Omenspeaker either. I just think there's better two-drops for this deck. Namely Nyx-fleece or even Humble Defector.
And I think the Temur transformational sideboard is weird to say he least. There's better ways to do a transformational sideboard for this deck, IMO. It would be fairly easy to turn Ascendancy combo into Jeskai tokens or heroic with a transformational sideboard.
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Tranform to Heroic is weird and it is not working. Jeskai Tokens could be an idea but I think that the best line of play post side is just to protect or combo with Swan Songs and have some tools to fight fast aggro decks (Hornet Nest, Seismic Rupture). If post sid eu don't have to use Songs or aggr protection u probably playing against grat match up and siding is not usefull at all, becouse consistency will be more important.
I just got into this deck and will be trying out vanister's build (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9504&d=254578&f=ST) -1 Treasure Cruise, +1 Island (or Temple of Mystery). My biggest question is what do we take out when boarding? It looks like cutting a Scheming and Cruise here and there works well, but I am not sure when to take out certain combo pieces. Any advice would be appreciated. Excited to play this deck!
I've never liked Taigam's Scheming because it doesn't replace itself, which makes it worse than Tormenting Voice and Anticipate and on about equal footing with Commune with the Gods, which at least grabs you a card most of the time (admittedly it's better in Mantle builds), and I've voiced my distaste for Altar multiple times, but the key thing this deck is missing is the Den Protector, which has saved my bacon many times since it came out. It's very much worth working in a copy. Since I think six Delve spells is pushing it, I highly recommend cutting one for a Protector. You may also want to max out on Nyx-Fleece Ram in the main, it's a house against mono-red and pretty good against Gx Devotion strategies (though this deck doesn't need any help in that match).
Reharding sideboarding, I often just take out my worst cantrips (usually some number of Voice and Commune) for low non-creature slots, and the Delve spells always come out against mono-red because you just don't have the time to develop a GY capable of casting them. Bringing in 8 cards in that match is rough, but shaving some of the cantrips and keeping the combo itself tight (I'd even drop down to one Altar, for lists using it, since you can grab it as a one-of with the Purse loop) should be fine. Regarding Esper Dragons, I have no real advice because the deck just doesn't exist in my meta, so I have no experience combating it.
I'm iffy on Sarkhan in the board, he seems mostly useless for the mana involved when compared to the Sphinx, but maybe I just haven't tried him enough.
I don't like Taigam's Scheming either, and I also take some cantrips when I SB. Post board, I have the Ram+Purse+Helix plan against decks with a lot of burn (along with Ojutai's Command), but I still keep the Mantle build maindeck because I feel that it's easier to go off with it. But I'm tempted to play a 'boarded' build with Ram maindeck (and maybe Raise the alarm too!) to improve the Rxx matchups.
I prefer the other Sarkhan against Esper Dragons or UB control, since their only answer is Hero's Downfall (assuming you have a mana dude to take the edict). As I said previously, every treat this deck can switch into has a weak spot (Sphinx and PW are weak to counterspells, Sarkhan to removal, etc). If I were playing Control, I would SB out some Crux of Fate and maybe some Downfalls, and that's why I have the punching guy in the SB
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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When u play version with more manadorks than only Caryatids cutting Scheming can be good, but with Nyx-Fleece Ram and Caryatid version Taigam's Scheming is 4 off must in. Ok, it makes card disadvantage but it fuels turn 3 Dig, it can set up every card u need (part of combo, Dig, Swan Song) not only Caryatid and Ascendancy like Commmune does. In high variance version Delve Dig Through Time is heart of the deck, u have to play at least 7 mill spells to be able to cast Dig on time. And I and Kanister both wrote a lot about why Dragon's Mantle is bad, I don't want to say it again. Mantle and Den Protector are both overkill, just don't play it.
I have to agree. I played this deck back when it first started up with all the mana dorks. I always felt weak to things like Anger of the Gods. But I recently came back to standard and saw the Sylvan Caryatid and Nyx-Fleece Ram version and it's simply amazing. Without the combo, by turn 5 I managed to cast 2x Dig Through Time, 3x Anticipate, and 2x Taigam's Scheming. I managed to see everything but 13 cards in my deck before I got the combo and went off. To have the ability to not combo and still virtually make it through your entire deck is awesome. There are almost no dead cards in the deck and I notice I mulligan a lot less.
I don't understand the Taigam's Scheming hate. I've played it T2 into T3 Dig Through Time a few times. I don't really consider it card disadvantage when it fuels Dig, and sets up your draws.
If anyone has a good sideboard plan on exactly what gets interchanged in each match-up, please share it because I am having some slight problems in that department.
When I was playing on GP Kraków I was 5-0 and than lost twice to even not red aggro but Eidolon of the great Revel. 3 out of 4 games I lost after turn 2 Eidolon (even in 1 game I had turn 3 combo on the draw! It was very frustrating, losing despite my best draw). The bestresponse to Eidolon is Seismic Rupture, becouse it kills all opponents' creatures, not only problematic Eidolon. It should give extra time to set up.
Sac effects are very hard to overcome, only well timed Swan Song can block it, but it's hard to set up in one time casting Caryatid, having mana for Swan Song and digging for Ascendancy.
Still i'm pretty sure, that high variance version of Ascendancy combo is better than one with Dragon Mantle and extra mana dorks but without digging. It's better to fight with 2-3 edict spells in opponents deck than with whole removal package which can kill X/1 and X/2 guys without hexproof. Great match up against GW midrange, Bant Megamorph and variants of Abzan is enough to think about Ascendancy as competitive deck.
I've been lurking in this thread since the deck was brewed and finally decided to join. I had planned to do a Tournament Report of a PPTQ I took part in but I didn't end up doing well so eh. Still gonna post my decklist and some notes that I hope you'll all find interesting.
This deck is based heavily on the Zach Jesse decklist with some obvious modifications. I'll talk about a few of my choices.
Other DorksI know its a common debate whether you should play non-Carytid dorks or just more deck manipulation to find it. I was on the heavy delve build for along time before this and it would seem the dichotomy is pretty simple. Playing Carytid only gives you better play against the heavy and cheap removal decks but weakens your match-up substantially against green decks turning it from a slam dunk something less. Dragon Mantle also feels better when you play more guys and having an extra enchantment to sac feels good. Right now 8-10 dudes feels right.
Den Protector feels great and I doubt I'll ever go back to the Altar plan. The thing that hits me so strongly is how terribly it feels when I draw Altar and how good it feels to draw den protector letting you get back a vital combo piece.
Nyx-Fleece and Swan Song Were recent additions to the main deck. Swan Song feels like a slam dunk with the amount relevant main deck cards being played against us right now(Dromoka's Command, Foul-Tongue Invocation) but Nyx-fleece ram, a concession to monored, I feel was a mistake. I keep seeing the heavy delve lists plays Ram as a second creature and that confuses me the more I play with it. It feels underwhelming against any deck that isn't monored and because of their "Go wide" strategy never even felt that good there. They are gone.
Ojutai I tried the Dragonlord as a replacement for Prognostic Sphinx since it represents a faster clock and good interactions with ascendancy. I still found the card mostly to fragile against the decks we want it against. Its back to Prognostic Sphinx.
Deathmist Raptor However was a huge success. It was something that came to mind a few weeks ago but that I could only get the cards for recently. This is my anti-Esper plan and it works very well. Playing against Esper you board out the combo and board in threats, manipulation and counters. Keep you opponents from casting dig and get your 2 for 1's in and you could win a decent number of matches but are still unfavored Deathmist swings things in the other direction. Now even out Rattleclaws are must counter threats and we get them back constantly.
I have yet to find a plan against monored that I think is good enough but I'm going to keep looking. Here is the deck as it stands now.
The Nyx-Fleece Ram version is amazing against mono red. I don't have a problem at all against mono red post sideboard when you bring in Hornet's Nest and Seismic Rupture. Ram also helps when forced to sac enchantment. The deck doesn't slow down IMO for having less dorks, in fact I constantly go off T4/T5 with the rare T3. I just don't see myself ever going to the heavier creature build. I would rather top deck a Anticipate or Taigams Scheming over another dork anyday.
According to the Day 2 metagame breakdown at Paris, we can expect to see a lot of Megamorph, Esper Control, Red Aggro, and even Mardu Dragons. If Jeskai Combo made it to Day 2, it had to be under others but it didn't seem to garner much coverage. I think we're in a tough spot in the current metagame with a lot of Dromoka's Command, Foul-Tongue Invocation and even Crackling Doom making a comeback. I'm considering going up to 3 maindeck Swan Songs.
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Valonus, Caryatid is a big reason for playing 4 colors. If you plan on playing this particular version without them, I would up the land count to 22 lands and try playing more Ojutai's Command to get back your mana dudes from the graveyard. Still gonna have tough matchups against the current iterations of mono red and the dragon control decks, though.
And I got nice idea - instead of Ny Fleece Ram as another creature for combo we should play 3-4 Raise the Alarm. Sometimes we can combo on 1/1 guy, but often it's "Counterspell" for Foul-Tongue Invocation and soldiers are nice blockers against red decks. Sometimes can even kill Rabblemaster in blocks! Also triggers Ascendancy
I ran your list on Gameday with some slight changes and got 4th
main deck
- 1 taigams schemeing
+ temple of triumph
side
- sarkhan
- reviving melody
+2 ojutai's command
The command is great instant speed get back ram or caryatid end of turn untap and go off
I played this list in all its stages and I think you nailed it as far as consistancey is concerned love the list dude.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16586&iddeck=124159
I concur with Sodek re: Ojutai's Command. In my testing last week it mostly just sat uselessly in my hand. I only cast it once and it was after I had already comboed and just wanted to get back my dead Den Protector.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
I currently play 1 Ojutai's Command main deck because everyone at my LGS tends to take my Caryatid if they hit me with an early Thoughtseize. I've won games with EOT command into Caryatid and draw a card into the combo. Also it opens up a line of play where you can put Caryatid or Den Protector into your graveyard off Scheming and dig deeper into your deck for combo pieces.
I understand not playing Ojutai's Command, though. My personal preference is to present a diverse set of threats.
I think the Japanese decklist just highlights how the core combo just gets free wins. Omenspeaker I found to be an interesting choice, though not one I would play myself. This deck tends to win a large share of Game 1's against GR monsters or GW devotion or even Jeskai Tempo decks, so sometimes you just get the right matchups.
I'm still leery of playing fetches alongside Anticipate and Dig Through Time. Part of the power of this deck is knowing what cards you've sent to the bottom and calculating the odds of digging for your last combo piece. Wooded Foothills and Windswept Heath I have found to be odd fits. Anytime you search for Forest, that is a land that cannot tap for Ascendancy or Dig which came up often in my playtesting.
And I think the Temur transformational sideboard is weird to say he least. There's better ways to do a transformational sideboard for this deck, IMO. It would be fairly easy to turn Ascendancy combo into Jeskai tokens or heroic with a transformational sideboard.
About Mindslaver rulings:
Reharding sideboarding, I often just take out my worst cantrips (usually some number of Voice and Commune) for low non-creature slots, and the Delve spells always come out against mono-red because you just don't have the time to develop a GY capable of casting them. Bringing in 8 cards in that match is rough, but shaving some of the cantrips and keeping the combo itself tight (I'd even drop down to one Altar, for lists using it, since you can grab it as a one-of with the Purse loop) should be fine. Regarding Esper Dragons, I have no real advice because the deck just doesn't exist in my meta, so I have no experience combating it.
I'm iffy on Sarkhan in the board, he seems mostly useless for the mana involved when compared to the Sphinx, but maybe I just haven't tried him enough.
.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
I prefer the other Sarkhan against Esper Dragons or UB control, since their only answer is Hero's Downfall (assuming you have a mana dude to take the edict). As I said previously, every treat this deck can switch into has a weak spot (Sphinx and PW are weak to counterspells, Sarkhan to removal, etc). If I were playing Control, I would SB out some Crux of Fate and maybe some Downfalls, and that's why I have the punching guy in the SB
I don't understand the Taigam's Scheming hate. I've played it T2 into T3 Dig Through Time a few times. I don't really consider it card disadvantage when it fuels Dig, and sets up your draws.
This deck has a lot of weaknesses though as Crackling Doom, Foul-Tongue Invocation, Dromoka's Command and even Self-Inflicted Wound are becoming very popular and we are collateral damage for these cards. I don't know how we beat Eidolon of the Great Reveal unless we have the combo early and can Helix it back to their hand as we start to go off. Finally, control is such an awful match up as they pretty much have Counterspell.
This deck as a lot a fun interactions like casting Retraction Helix in response to a Dromoka's Command to bounce your Jeskai Ascendancy but not before looting. Also, know the order of operations on cards like Dromoka's Command. I was in a game where he casted Dromoka's Command making sac an Enchantment and fighting my Nyx-Fleece Ram. But because of the order of operations, I sac'd the ram allowing me to safely keep my Jeskai Ascendancy.
If anyone has a good sideboard plan on exactly what gets interchanged in each match-up, please share it because I am having some slight problems in that department.
Modern
Ad Nauseam
Dredge
Living End
Legacy
Lands
Sac effects are very hard to overcome, only well timed Swan Song can block it, but it's hard to set up in one time casting Caryatid, having mana for Swan Song and digging for Ascendancy.
Still i'm pretty sure, that high variance version of Ascendancy combo is better than one with Dragon Mantle and extra mana dorks but without digging. It's better to fight with 2-3 edict spells in opponents deck than with whole removal package which can kill X/1 and X/2 guys without hexproof. Great match up against GW midrange, Bant Megamorph and variants of Abzan is enough to think about Ascendancy as competitive deck.
2 Swan Song
2 Negate
3 Hornet Nest
4 Seismic Rupture
2 Reviving Melody
1 Narset Trenscendent
I've been lurking in this thread since the deck was brewed and finally decided to join. I had planned to do a Tournament Report of a PPTQ I took part in but I didn't end up doing well so eh. Still gonna post my decklist and some notes that I hope you'll all find interesting.
4 Sylvan Carytid
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Den Protector
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
Combo Pieces
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Dragon Mantle
2 Briber's Purse
4 Retraction Helix
3 Twin Flame
Deck Manipulation
3 Dig Through Time
4 Anticipate
3 Commune with the Gods
2 Swan Song
Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Frontier Bivouac
4 Mana Confluence
1 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Plenty
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Den Protector
3 Deathmist Raptor
2 Swan Song
1 Nyx-Fleece Ram
3 Seismic Rupture
1 Reviving Melody
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time
This deck is based heavily on the Zach Jesse decklist with some obvious modifications. I'll talk about a few of my choices.
Other DorksI know its a common debate whether you should play non-Carytid dorks or just more deck manipulation to find it. I was on the heavy delve build for along time before this and it would seem the dichotomy is pretty simple. Playing Carytid only gives you better play against the heavy and cheap removal decks but weakens your match-up substantially against green decks turning it from a slam dunk something less. Dragon Mantle also feels better when you play more guys and having an extra enchantment to sac feels good. Right now 8-10 dudes feels right.
Den Protector feels great and I doubt I'll ever go back to the Altar plan. The thing that hits me so strongly is how terribly it feels when I draw Altar and how good it feels to draw den protector letting you get back a vital combo piece.
Nyx-Fleece and Swan Song Were recent additions to the main deck. Swan Song feels like a slam dunk with the amount relevant main deck cards being played against us right now(Dromoka's Command, Foul-Tongue Invocation) but Nyx-fleece ram, a concession to monored, I feel was a mistake. I keep seeing the heavy delve lists plays Ram as a second creature and that confuses me the more I play with it. It feels underwhelming against any deck that isn't monored and because of their "Go wide" strategy never even felt that good there. They are gone.
Ojutai I tried the Dragonlord as a replacement for Prognostic Sphinx since it represents a faster clock and good interactions with ascendancy. I still found the card mostly to fragile against the decks we want it against. Its back to Prognostic Sphinx.
Deathmist Raptor However was a huge success. It was something that came to mind a few weeks ago but that I could only get the cards for recently. This is my anti-Esper plan and it works very well. Playing against Esper you board out the combo and board in threats, manipulation and counters. Keep you opponents from casting dig and get your 2 for 1's in and you could win a decent number of matches but are still unfavored Deathmist swings things in the other direction. Now even out Rattleclaws are must counter threats and we get them back constantly.
I have yet to find a plan against monored that I think is good enough but I'm going to keep looking. Here is the deck as it stands now.
4 Sylvan Carytid
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Den Protector
1 Kiora's Follower
Combo Pieces
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Dragon Mantle
2 Briber's Purse
4 Retraction Helix
3 Twin Flame
Deck Manipulation
3 Dig Through Time
4 Anticipate
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Swan Song
Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Frontier Bivouac
4 Mana Confluence
1 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Plenty
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Den Protector
4 Deathmist Raptor
2 Swan Song
3 Seismic Rupture
2 Reviving Melody
1 Dig Through Time
Modern
Ad Nauseam
Dredge
Living End
Legacy
Lands