Yeah I mean I went to Reality Shift before asking the question, and it's ok, it's just it's a matter of realistically how many slots can I take. Temur Charm is interesting. I really want that card to be good, maybe it finally is but up to this point it hasn't been even passable. It's been horrendous. The only way to really compensate that though might be generating more mana like my current list does. But having to have already landed one of the bigger bombs by the time it is active is a bit awkward. That might still give a decent enough window. The fact it's a counter spell as well that behaves similar to Clash which appears good enough for me right now might be close enough.
Ugin is the other option. This one I haven't tried. It might actually be really good against those decks, although you basically lose you whole board if you want to prevent Tragic Arrogance from being a thing. I would really have to see what sort of timing. If Perplexing Chimera was not an enchantment I'd seriously consider it. That's the sort of going deep I was hoping for. Dromoka's Command is so prevalent. I've been really trying to make an enchantment less Temur deck.
@sleepystoner: Love the card choices. Have a real hard time with the mana. 13 Red is insufficient for Phoenix, maybe that's fine, but it's even fringe problematic for Thunderbreak. 9 Blue is insufficient for Knuckleblade. Basically your 3 drops are never set to play on 3 let alone on 2 unless you land Rattleclaw and they don't kill it which is pretty much not happening right now unless you are against GW I guess. Basically this deck will stumble early on mana such a high percentage of the time the investment on those early threats will be very awkward. To play a deck that greedy on costs you would at minimum need 3 Shivan Reef Cutting the basic Island and 2 Mountains for it. I would also probably trade a Forest for a Mana Confluence. Even then though you'd be short on red. To really take advantage of Phoenix you want 16-18 red. Which gets you in a range where you probably want 1 or 2 lands of the Rugged Highland variety(if you are skipping temples). You don't
The mana probably should look like this to cover your colours:
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mana Confluence
4 Frontier Biovac
1 Rugged Highland
1 Swift Water Cliffs
I'm thinking some Swift Water Cliffs over the Reefs due to pain, but they are so much worse than temples it's probably best to keep the taplands at 6. If mana confluence is a problem I'd put in 1 more Rugged Highland for it.
I'm having problems with temur charm myself. I don't know how to time it well enough for it to be effective given my mana base. 11G with 4 from pain lands is just too painful. Maybe it's an inherent issue with my list and I find using it as a counter most of the time. The fight mode and the power through mode seems really good but I haven't had the chance to use it since I can easily get rid of thopters with anger. With this, I'd prefer a 4th scorn over it for now.
Anyway, I just found out that GR devo w/ hornet queen and RUbots play very differently. Usually, I can wait for the RUbots to go wide and then cast anger to clear the board, unless they go big with scissors then I'm dead before I can do anything game1. As with devo, I find myself wanting to cast anger turn 3/4 to clear the board of their dorks. This is very disruptive for their part and they have a hard time recovering from it. The problem is if the game drags on and they get a hornet queen out. I find it a problem card and this is where temur charm shines. However, most of the time I just wish I have another anger at hand to deal all of them.
Ok this is what I'm on right now. I realized that most of the value that I was getting from Woodland Bellower was better served as Sarkhan Unbroken. You want Bellower to up quantity of very specific hate cards but you don't want to lean on it. The sideboard plan is starting to come together now. I'm not sure I need the 2nd Rec Sage in the board but consider this list.
EDIT: I won an 8 man yesterday with the list above, so it felt not bad. Abzan Beastmater was a bit of a dud, so I started testing Reverent Hunter to good results. But I wanted to see how much more I could take it. I may have gone off the deep end but I figured if I'm making the investment I am why not push it even harder. Consider this list:
You wouldn't think Sarkhan Unbroken would be good in a deck like this (since you can't fetch him off a See the Unwritten) but he provides recurring ferocious and ramps you into 6 mana, which is where this deck is trying to operate since it unmorphs an Ashcloud Phoenix and is, well, See the Unwritten mana.
So here was the list I ran last FNM. It went 3-1 that night, losing to abzan control.
Match 1: Temur midrange 2-0
Both games went relatively fast. Opponent (who was on the play for 2 games) turns on both games were T1 elf, T2 caryatid, T3 xenagos. I had anger both games so I just wiped board on my turn 3 and a hasted knuckleblade on T4 to kill xenagos. Followed by a T5 stormbreath and T6 sarkhan, the games were easily sealed.
Match 2: UG Turbofog tutelage 2-0
Started game 1 with T3 knux, T4 regent. The rest of the turns were spent on burn/counters until opponent's tutelage is just too slow. Game 2 I had back to nature in and just wiped the monastery siege, dictate of kruphix and tutelage (tutelage was cast the same turn). Swing with stormbreath and opponent just doesnt have a hard removal to deal with it.
Match 3: Abzan control (1-2)
Game 1 was spent on explosive starts. T1 denial thoughtseize, T2 jet/scry, T3/T4 scorn charm and thoughtseize, T5 regent, T6 stormbreath. Game 2 I was stuck on 4 lands and I don't feel comfortable casting my spells without mana for denial, knowing that black has a lot of hard removal. Opponent eventually got an elspeth out with me stuck at nothing. Game 3 was very similar to game 2. My only mistake was I sided out 2 angers thinking that opponent has sided out elspeth after I scorned one the previous game.
Match 4: Temur midrange 2-0
Game 1 was very fast. Opponent was stuck on 3 lands, 1 mystic, 2 caryatid. T3 anger pretty much closed out the game. Game 2 opponent has T1 mystic, T2 caryatid, T3 hornet nest, T4 xenagos and I had no creatures. Had to anger to clear board though nest exploded and xenagos was able to summon regent. I summon regent on my turn and then traded it with the opposing regent. Next turn opponent's xenagos pumps out a hornet queen so pretty much everything is locked up. Anticipate at eot for anger, wipe board then slash xenagos. Next turn opponent's xenagos summoned a satyr and attacked. Next turn I swung a hasted knux on xenagos to kill it. Opponent then summoned top decked polukranos. I top deck kiora and had kiora lock down polukranos. Eventually summoned stormbreath dragon, burnt enemy then crater's claws.
Changes:
Aetherspouts just seemed too slow for me, replaced with draconic roar. Why only 1 roar? Well I can't find my 2nd roar so that's it.
Thoughts:
I'm not seeing how useful temur charm is for the current meta at my place. It just seems too slow. I'd rather replace those with a slash and a denial. 2 denial is just too few to have a fast-paced game. Magma spray is perfect. It burns opponents and it lets you set up your next draw. It's small advantages like this that I prefer over raw power. 2 crater's claws is very good for my burn-counter oriented list. 1 is good but 2 is where I want it at. And is Surrak really needed? I haven't seen any UB/esper control lists in the last few weeks and I haven't needed his trample against thopters. For me, killing scissors is more important that powering through thopters. That doesn't mean I'd let thopters get to critical mass though.
So, just for the record, here's my list that I'm sticking to for now. It worked well enough today I don't see a point in changing anything before the next tournament.
1: I feel like I got a little lucky today since I played against 2 RDW, 1 G/B Elves and 1 Mono-B Aggro. Those are all decks that I'm tuned to beat. So, despite my success I will caution that if your meta is heavy on G/R Devotion, Abzan Midrange and/or G/W Devotion your list should probably look a good bit different. In truth this might not even be the right deck for that metagame since the matchups in all 3 are pretty rough with Abzan probably being the least horrible of them since their clock isn't as fast, they don't run a lot of fliers and you can burn enough of their early creatures. Since G/R and G/W have such a hard time with all the RDW and Elves in the format though, I don't see that being too much of a problem in the near future.
In other news: Everything else from the GP top 8 looks pretty good for us. B/R Dragons could be an interesting Mirror, but I think we can tempo with them. Esper I know we beat (especially once we board out the Angers and most the burn)... kinda surprised to see that deck holding on with all the RDW running around.
Hi, this is my first post here. Sorry for my bad english, jejeje.
I played lastnight using this deck and I got 3 wins and 1 draw. The deck worked just great. I played against Jeskai aggro(2-1), UR ensoul artifact(2-0), Monored aggro(2-1) and Abzan midrange(1-1).
1- Jeskai Aggro 2-1
First hand was just perfect, my hand with 1 anger of the gods, 1 icefall regent, 1 draconic roar, 1 silumgar's scorn and lands(then my draws were: thunderbreak regent and burn spells). Just wait for him to put in play jace, soulfire and a mantis and I played anger of the gods. Then I played a thunderbreak regent, he played a mantis, then I tapped his mantis with my icefall regent and that was game 1.
Game two my hand was good but my oponnent sideboarded a lot of counters (negate and disdainful stroke). He countered my dragons, put in game an elspeth and a dragonlord ojutai and that was.
changes after game 2:
-1 sarkhan unbroken
-1 temur charm
-1 kiora
-1 ugin
+icefall regent
+anger of the gods
+2 feed the clan
Game three was very similar at game 1 but after wipe the board I played a thunderbreak regent, then a Sarkhan unbroken and he just didn´t have answer for them.
2- UR ensoul artifact 2-0
Game 1: he played a T1 Ornithopter, T3 hangarback. I played a anger of the gods. Then just burn his creatures and playing mine(keeping 1 mana untapped for his Stubborn denial just worked great).
Game 2: Mulligan to 6 (not burn and counter)then got a silumgar's scorn, 1 draconic and 1 wild slash. Burn and counter his creatures until having mana to play thunderbreak and icefall regent.
The sideboard changes were the same used vs Jeskai aggro.
3.- Monored 2-1
Game 1: My hand: 1 anger of the gods, 1 feed the clan, 1 draconic roar, 1 Savage Knuckleblade.
He keeped a hand with 1 land and not draw another until turn 3 (monastery swiftspear and a berseker in play)that give
me the time to Anger him, play knuckleblade and feed the clan. Won game 1.
changes after game 1:
-2 sarkhan unbroken
-2 temur charm
-1 kiora
-1 ugin
+2 twin bolt
+1 anger of the gods
+3 feed the clan
Game 2: My mistake for keeping a hand just with creatures and counter, no burn spells. T1 monastery, T2 monastery and Zurgo, T3 counter the 3 token sorcery but it just was too late, Loss game 2.
Game 3: 2 feed the clan, 1 twin bolt, 1 wild slash in hand. He played 2 stoke the flames to kill my 2 knuckleblade, then he has no answers for my icefall and thunderbreak regent.
4-Abzan Midrange 1-1
Game 1: Counter his Courser and counter his rhino give me time for play kiora and a sarkhan, knowing about the huge amount of removal I used a scryland first(keeping the land on top) and play the Kiora -1 ability to draw and play another land. With sarkhan put a dragon...he killed both of my PW(used 3 downfall for the 2 PW and the dragon token). Then Languish just for my knuckleblade then I know he have no creatures to play.
I played 3 dragons(blue and red regent and stormbreath), he destroyed them with elspeth, then return rhino with den and I have no answers for them I loose game 1.
changes after game 1:
-2 Anger of the gods
-2 wild slash
-1 twin bolt
-1 anticipate
+1 Perilous vault
+2 Icefall regent
+3 feed the clan
Game 2, was very fast. Play 2 feed the clan with ferocius from knuckleblade. I let him put 1 den and 2 rhinos in play, having a crater´s claw in hand I played thunderbreak regent and icefall regent, attack him twice and "claw" him. Win game 2
Game 3, very slow. In afew words he played elspeth 3 times (returning her with den protector). I draw all my anger of the gods wiping the elspeth´s tokens. Game 3 draw.
Like veritoanimus said, it´s a awesome deck vs aggro, but against Abzan or another midrange deck is a challenge, I´m thinking of putting in 2 or 3 stubborn denial in my Sideboard and taking out 1 sarkhan, 1 crater´s claw... and maybe 1 temur charm from the main. My logic used here is to stay ready for the removal (or PW)after playing your creatures.
You wouldn't think Sarkhan Unbroken would be good in a deck like this (since you can't fetch him off a See the Unwritten) but he provides recurring ferocious and ramps you into 6 mana, which is where this deck is trying to operate since it unmorphs an Ashcloud Phoenix and is, well, See the Unwritten mana.
Yeah before Bellower was legal I was sort of playing a deck like this to see if I thought it could feasible. My concern was of course running into Counterspells. I decided after a little testing I'd just have to wait for Bellower because setting up See the Unwritten took considerably my work. Like if I got a good dork draw I usually didn't want to slam it T4 if you could play a ferocious creature first whereas Bellower you most certainly would. Like you'd rather sandbag a Stormbreath in many situations than a Bellower, and See the Unwritten sort of forces your hand if you want to up your odds. Ultimately it was a counterspell issue with control and the matchup felt close but slightly unfavorable which I wasn't comfortable with at the time. I could be more comfortable with it recently but I generally prefer playing decks that show control decks whose their master. It was hard to play the right tools to make it even on the positive side. Obviously the first things you board out are the See the Unwrittens, but it went beyond that and was sort of fundamental to me making the shift to only counterspell reactive spells main. Basically you always want a deck right now (and even then) that has the ability to stop decks from going all in faster than you for a trivial opportunity cost. This means an ability to take out a T2 Ensoul or that Ascendancy etc or even that Stoke or opposing See the Unwritten or Atarka. Sarkhan is good in the deck, to enable Ferocity, but is the deck actually better off with Dragons over Whisperwood when it relies on it's board so much. Don't get me wrong I'm playing the exact same game. Seeing how much I can borrow from GR Devotion without getting stuck ground pounding and not being able to close games fast enough. But we can't depend on being faster in the head to head, and we should consider if the tradeoff makes us better in other matchups (like control which has been a weakness of Devotion).
The most interesting stuff to me is the tension between the fact that Control has to be making a comeback soon making this list tougher and the fact that Ashcloud in a world of Wild Slashes, Magma Sprays, and Searing Bloods seems so much worse than Regent. Even Hangerback Walker for that matter. That being said those were probably 2 weeks ago and if this week is dragons maybe Ashcloud is just good enough to cover your bases into a control metagame.
So here was the list I ran last FNM. It went 3-1 that night, losing to abzan control.
Match 1: Temur midrange 2-0
Both games went relatively fast. Opponent (who was on the play for 2 games) turns on both games were T1 elf, T2 caryatid, T3 xenagos. I had anger both games so I just wiped board on my turn 3 and a hasted knuckleblade on T4 to kill xenagos. Followed by a T5 stormbreath and T6 sarkhan, the games were easily sealed.
Match 2: UG Turbofog tutelage 2-0
Started game 1 with T3 knux, T4 regent. The rest of the turns were spent on burn/counters until opponent's tutelage is just too slow. Game 2 I had back to nature in and just wiped the monastery siege, dictate of kruphix and tutelage (tutelage was cast the same turn). Swing with stormbreath and opponent just doesnt have a hard removal to deal with it.
Match 3: Abzan control (1-2)
Game 1 was spent on explosive starts. T1 denial thoughtseize, T2 jet/scry, T3/T4 scorn charm and thoughtseize, T5 regent, T6 stormbreath. Game 2 I was stuck on 4 lands and I don't feel comfortable casting my spells without mana for denial, knowing that black has a lot of hard removal. Opponent eventually got an elspeth out with me stuck at nothing. Game 3 was very similar to game 2. My only mistake was I sided out 2 angers thinking that opponent has sided out elspeth after I scorned one the previous game.
Match 4: Temur midrange 2-0
Game 1 was very fast. Opponent was stuck on 3 lands, 1 mystic, 2 caryatid. T3 anger pretty much closed out the game. Game 2 opponent has T1 mystic, T2 caryatid, T3 hornet nest, T4 xenagos and I had no creatures. Had to anger to clear board though nest exploded and xenagos was able to summon regent. I summon regent on my turn and then traded it with the opposing regent. Next turn opponent's xenagos pumps out a hornet queen so pretty much everything is locked up. Anticipate at eot for anger, wipe board then slash xenagos. Next turn opponent's xenagos summoned a satyr and attacked. Next turn I swung a hasted knux on xenagos to kill it. Opponent then summoned top decked polukranos. I top deck kiora and had kiora lock down polukranos. Eventually summoned stormbreath dragon, burnt enemy then crater's claws.
Changes:
Aetherspouts just seemed too slow for me, replaced with draconic roar. Why only 1 roar? Well I can't find my 2nd roar so that's it.
Thoughts:
I'm not seeing how useful temur charm is for the current meta at my place. It just seems too slow. I'd rather replace those with a slash and a denial. 2 denial is just too few to have a fast-paced game. Magma spray is perfect. It burns opponents and it lets you set up your next draw. It's small advantages like this that I prefer over raw power. 2 crater's claws is very good for my burn-counter oriented list. 1 is good but 2 is where I want it at. And is Surrak really needed? I haven't seen any UB/esper control lists in the last few weeks and I haven't needed his trample against thopters. For me, killing scissors is more important that powering through thopters. That doesn't mean I'd let thopters get to critical mass though.
Yeah everything you described is what happens when you play a lot of spells and not enough threats. I understand it's intentional but it's really hard for a deck with expensive spells to effectively play a tempo game purely off spells. You guys keep posting these almost control like lists but let's face it, we do not really have control in these colors. There is no room for missing stuff. You have to have the spells line up right and leave no room. If you are a better player than most of your opponents you hard effort will probably pay off, but if your opponent gets around it the deck has no safety valve something every control deck needs. These lists remind of when a formats new and mono red is king and people bring out GW Lifegain as a deck. The GW Lifegain deck is really good in that field, and is even passable against control because it has a lot of creatures that can attack that are slightly bigger. But it has no real power so when a proactive real deck comes along it looks like it does absolutely nothing and gets completely crushed.
There is a big reason why UR is almost never a deck in Standard unless their is a combo or engine that it can be built around. Those are the most do nothing colours in magic together. The rare exceptions is if you are basically playing a blue heavy creature deck with a red splash. You add the 3rd colour it can be wildly different since both colours provide great elements, but UR on it's own is really good if you are satisfied by some perverted notion of whipping your deck out and shuffling it in front of people. Maybe your opponent likes to watch. Where RUG is different is it is generally G first.. it's GRu or GUr because outside of Tarmogoyf in Legacy which is an insane rate the green splash adds things that are unneeded. Red already has big creatures in dragons. It just doesn't have the biggest creatures along the curve or a way to accelerate. This usually means green is a key part of the mana if you are looking for that.
So back to the heavy spell versions. If the opponent lands one good threat and has permission backed up.. Or let's say they land a Siege Rhino do you really have time to play around these games. It's like playing Abzan Control with worse cards outside of the control mirror. You are probably slightly better against green devotion too, but it's arguable because you can also just draw the wrong parts of the deck and never be able to come back. Can you picture if your opponent ever had Denial for that Anger or you didn't have Anger. There is such a huge chance that event looks completely different. SImilarly what if they T2 Knucks.. and Anger did nothing. Or if someone was wise enough to expect knuckleblade after anger when they see Temur colours and just leave their Token back on an open board. I do it all the time. Knuckleblade generally doesn't beat Xenagos... I'd rather be the person who just had my board wiped with the Xenagos than the person with Knuckleblade most of the time.
The problem comes in if you stumble and don't have the right answer in a deck like this you might be left holding up the wrong answer instead of promoting your gameplan. You need so many spells because the deck needs a variety and density of answers since none of the answers are that good universally. In Abzan it's pretty easy to play less 1 of this etc.. it's like 4 Abzan Charm no brainer.. Maybe 3 Heroes Downfall etc.. There is this consistency there. Even if you answer you need to be ready to pounce afterwards. Knuckleblade is good there. The unfortunate part is if they don't bite, because they've already recognized on pure colour basis they are advantaged you might have a hard time. What if they just don't play anything except EoT draw cards with Abzan Charm and keep up removal. I don't know if Temur Control can even walk toe to toe with Abzan card for card. I find Abzan matchups easy because I can always force their hand and basically break their pattern and time walk them to get very far ahead. If you aren't doing anything they care about maybe they just don't fall for the cheap tricks. And that is the real concern here, since their is this deficit of real power in UR the tricks are always cheap tricks and usually if expected quite easy to play around. Your opponent is in no real fear of you doing something devastating. WHat's the worst thing that can happen you counter a spell, or Aetherspout them. Your spells aren't any cheaper or more efficient so outside of counter, Knucks sort of line you don't get ahead and if they don't fall for the counter.. well nothing happens and maybe their bigger spells are better.
I always lament Temur Charms power in that it looks like it's a decent card but it isn't ever really. But maybe it's the perfect analog here. The card epitomizes the exact problem with play Temur in this fashion. The card is pretty decent trick to build on something and it can be a blow out, but generally nothing it does is just quite powerful enough and it's overcosted for the type of deck that would want to use that sort of plan. What you end up with a card that actually feels like less than the sum of it's parts because it's cost invalidates it.
That's a cool deck. I like the curve basically. Whether or not I like the mana is another thing but the colours look right. It's just always hard to judge at a certain threshold. He basically took a typical Temur Dragons mold and replaced the 3 Atarka's with 2 Dromoka's and an Ugin. I think I might have to try that.
As for myself I'm done with gimmicky approaches. You need to try them out at the beginning of each format, but for me Woodland Bellower is a bust for now. Until Nykthos and Genesis Hydra go away. Don't get me wrong. The card is decent with the right support. But the best play really was T1 Elf, T2 Shaman of the Forgotten Ways, T3 Bellower + Reverent Hunter as a 6/6. This is a powerful opening to be sure but drawing the Hunter was awkward, and playing more than one Hunter was awkward. Basically Deathmist, Knuckles, and Hunter were all the same card slightly different so unless there was an enchantment you really wanted to kill nothing really stood out as a target. And the inconsistency of drawing the Reclamation Sage or Elf, Hunter, all Dragons opener was enough to make it not as powerful as it needed to be. If it was always the biggest game in town I could live with that variance but Nykthos says otherwise.
Mind you some good stuff came out of that. Like I like Whisperwood better than the 3rd or 4th Sarkhan. Shaman of the Forgotten Ways is like Lotus Cobra (and is an x/3). I never thought I'd like a Dreamweaver Druid but this one has been good (I'm sure until I run into Draconic Roar.dec). Obviously it isn't as good as Cobra but it gives you that play ahead of the curve leave permission up angle that I miss from Cobra days. Those lines are usually much better than jamming Bellower at 6. Playing a 5 drop and leaving up Denial is much more potent usually.. I want my mana to survive so Caryatid is back.
The other thing was I got a good feel of how far I could stretch the mana with Knuckles. I side Knuckles out a lot but he's the best intermediate play now I think so I'm going to jam him. The trick though is play 25 lands. I've been on that before but I wasn't playing enough Temples. I'm trying to shift around the base again.
I have 2 free sideboard spots right now. Mainly that this list is probably like 75% against Abzan Control. Whisperwood gives the dragons even more wrath protection, and allows you to even sandbag them against Elspeth. Roast might be what I want against Abzan Aggro but the matchup is already reasonable. I've been finding this list pretty good across the board but it really sticks out how good it is against Abzan. The trickiest part is if they have Dromoka they will bring it in against you because of the permission. Which means that Dromoka Tragic Arrogance is a thing. Mind you if they are missing either side they fall easily. The permission main makes control decent too. Basically the last 2 spots are probably removal spells, like Roast or more Magma Sprays. I was considering Draconic Roar other than I usually side out my Stormbreaths against decks that I really need more burn, so unless Abzan Aggro or Jeskai are problematic I don't see it. It's possible I'm just supposed to play some awkward cards versus fliers like Arbor Colossus or Plummet. Colossus + Surrak are even decent upper end subs against red aggro given their 6 toughness and even Dromoka's Command decks, since outside of pure GW Deathmist is on a bit of a decline and Knuckleblade does nothing a lot of times in both places.
So the way I see it is you either have to play Dromoka or Ugin or cater to removing it. However outside of Dromoka, permission deals with every other top end threat including Ugin. So in Temur Dragons it was a sort of given to me. However that 4 color list is interesting. It feels even better paired with the permission than my list. The burn might be wasted on it. It has this manic thing where it attacks in 2 phases but doesn't really have a bridge. That will work generally if you can keep the pressure on long enough while you draw the mana to get to plan 2, however if you get there and you kept the pressure up why haven't you won? I have the same issue trying to justify Atarka. But I can force a bigger window. If the opponent just Hero's your Dromoka or End Hostilities it's unlikely even Ugin gets you back or a couple Draconic Roars since if they were good enough you would have won the game already.
EDIT: Updated my list above.. Trying something a little greedier but it's hard to deny the pure card quality. I mean no deck has more dragons.
Could anyone do a quick critique of my deck? i'm a fairly casual player, and this is a somewhat budget build so i didn't purchase any expensive fetch/dual lands.
Ryansolid, have you tested this deck against aggro decks? I always have problems with them when I play Temur with no anger of the gods and no feed the clan.
Could anyone do a quick critique of my deck? i'm a fairly casual player, and this is a somewhat budget build so i didn't purchase any expensive fetch/dual lands.
so rejigger around my lands so i have access to more red mana?
thanks!
That's one solution. You want G on turn 1, so you need ~11 untapped G sources. You want RR or GG on t3, so that's ~16 of each. Mystics count for a few G. You want U on t2, so that's about 11 U sources. A challenge without using fetches.
Thanks alot for your help man, super informative and useful
I was thinking maybe on doubling up my pain lands (going 4x shivan reef) and looking for some stomping grounds. Wooded foothills are definitely out of my budget right now though.
Thanks alot for your help man, super informative and useful
I was thinking maybe on doubling up my pain lands (going 4x shivan reef) and looking for some stomping grounds. Wooded foothills are definitely out of my budget right now though.
I'd hold off on Stomping Grounds...they're not Standard legal...soooo...
But I'd buy foothills. If you want to play a 3-color deck in standard you kinda need Fetch lands. There's really no comparison.
Thanks alot for your help man, super informative and useful
I was thinking maybe on doubling up my pain lands (going 4x shivan reef) and looking for some stomping grounds. Wooded foothills are definitely out of my budget right now though.
Fetches are expensive, but represent just about the best value. Stormbreath is irreplaceable, but in 6 weeks: toast. With only 4 taplands currently, my value advice would be to get even a pair of fetches and a pair of the gainlands (rugged Highlands?) if your budget permits.
I played Temur See the Unwritten at the WMCQ in Philly. I played pretty poorly and was compensated as such (5-3).
Sarkhan Unbroken was hot garbage all weekend.
Surrak Dragonclaw on the other hand? This guy is good. This guy is really good. Against Abzan Aggro he is an absolute house. He ambushes literally the entire deck, only dying to Abzan Charm or a huge Walker.
If I were in the Temur boat, I'd start jamming more of him.
You wouldn't think Sarkhan Unbroken would be good in a deck like this (since you can't fetch him off a See the Unwritten) but he provides recurring ferocious and ramps you into 6 mana, which is where this deck is trying to operate since it unmorphs an Ashcloud Phoenix and is, well, See the Unwritten mana.
Brought the following list to a local FNM after driving 2 hours to get back home. Went straight from the highway to the LGS and went 4-1 with the following Temur list. First I'll post a quick rundown of matches.
R1 vs. Matthew (MonoRed/RW/something) 2-1
The guy wasn't great. So a miserable matchup turned into a fine one. Game 1 I hit all 3 Thunderbreak Regents and he had to kill each one with burn spells, leading to 12 damage over the course of the game. Game 2 I had in the bag. I stopped a Deflecting Palm with Wild Slash to knock him to 3, but should have attacked with my mana guys. Because at 3 he had enough life to crack two fetch lands and hit me with 2 Exquisite Firecrafts for dead. Game 3 was easy. Just a whole bunch of Stubborn Denial making him sad.
R2 vs. Brian (UR Tutelage) 2-1
I lost game 1 to a mana screw and him hitting double/triple Tutelage. Not much to say there. Game 2 hit landed an early Xenagos and had Back to Nature for when he tried to draw off his double Tutelage. Game 3 he was never able to get more than a single tutelage up at a time, and Savage Knuckleblade did the rest of the work. Anger of the Gods and Encase in Ice look really silly against Papa Knucks.
R3 vs. Travis (Mardu Aggro/Midrage) 2-1 Not a Dragons deck. It was playing things like Sarkhan, Elspeth, Hordeling Outburst, and Butcher of the Horde. Game 1 I got kinda lucky. I hit his Butcher with a Reality Shift after he sacked a whole bunch of goblins to it, and he manifested a Crackling Doom. At that point I had enough pressure to just fly over the top and kill him. Game 2 I couldn't get my footing and he smashed me with Goblins and Rabblemaster. Game 3 was close, and he landed a Sorin to Stabilize and go from 4 to 10. But I was able to Stormbreath and Craters Claws for exactly lethal.
R4 vs. Joshua (Abzan Control) 1-2
Game 1 saw me hit every elf in my deck. And Xenagos. Not exactly what you want to see vs. some one playing Drown in Sorrow and Languish. Game 2 was a piece of cake. I had all the right threats to his removal and all the right answers (Stubborn Denial) to his other things. Game 3 finally looked like I might stabilize, but I was at 1 after landing Atarka, and he had 2 guys left to kill me with.
R5 vs. Steven (Bant Megamorph) 2-0
Pretty easy, all things considered. Game 1 saw Thunderbreak Regent jump in early. I actually missed two Regent triggers when he tried to Dromoka's command his Deathmist Raptor and fight my dragon...twice. I had to Reality shift his guy, and he responded with the second Command...so I responded with the second shift. So I missed 6 damage that way. Didn't really matter, since I then dropped Stormbreath and knocked him to 6 with lethal in hand. Game 2 was just about the same. Double Regents make for rough beats against Deathmist Raptor decks, and I knew I could race it pretty easily.
Notes on individual cards.
Reality Shift is the only card that answers everything. Unfortunately. It's really not my favorite thing to be doing, but it answers Hangarback, Dragonlords, and various other flying threats all at instant speed on the cheap. The manifest they get can go either way. Sometimes they'll manifest a key removal spell or planeswalker. Other times they'll get a creature and you'll be back to square one. It's something you have to really measure and I don't blame anyone else who doesn't want to play it.
I'm split on Shaman of Forgotten Ways. Sometimes it's absolutely great. Other times it doesn't do enough. That said, It was VERY easy for me to get to the required 11 mana during the night, and I was able to activate the Shaman against my Abzan opponent in Game 1. I didn't, because then I'd die on the crack-back. But I almost had it.
Xenagos is still the best card in the deck. Man. It's insane and probably not even close. I wish I could find a way to play more of him. Stormbreath might be next, but Xenagos gives you everything this deck needs in just about every matchup.
Stubborn Denial is unreal. It's just so good and probably exactly what this deck wants. It's such a blowout against Abzan and UB. In my mind it's the single reason to be playing Temur over GR Dragons/Midrange/Aggro. If you're not playing Stubbs, why bother playing Blue at all? It means you get to laugh at Languish and removal spells.
Dragonlord Atarka and Crater's Claws are simply the best things you can be doing with all the man the deck makes. If I can, I'll never tap out for either, because leaving one blue open to represent stubbs is fantastic.
I'd like to fit some of the following into the deck, at least to test.
Icefall Regent: It seems like a decent hedge against other creature decks. Plus you might get to live the dream with it and Thunderbreak to make removing it extra difficult.
Draconic Roar: With 9 dragons main-deck, I feel like some number of these is pretty good. Unfortunately, my non-creature spell slots are pretty tight. I don't think it's better than Crater's Claws, and it's definitely worse than Reality Shift against Siege Rhino and Hangarback Walker.
Magma Spray: This can easily be put in instead of Wild Slash to deal with Hangarback. I like Slash against the odd Deflecting Palm or Foggy deck, though. And most of the decks that play Hangarback are also decks you REALLY don't want Spray against either.
Hornet Nest: If Goblins/Mono-red Dudes becomes more of the red-based meta than MonoRed Burn, Hornet Nest gets the nod over Feed the Clan. Man, I really hate Feed the Clan, but it's a pretty solid chunk of life...
Ryansolid, have you tested this deck against aggro decks? I always have problems with them when I play Temur with no anger of the gods and no feed the clan.
Yep, although really only the red variety. I imagine mono black aggro would be just awkward enough but I could be wrong. I'm not considering Abzan or Jeskai Aggro as aggro in this comparison since they are really midrange decks. Firstly I'm going to say those 2 last removal slots are usually removal that can be used in red matchups. Usually I do find I need a certain threshold of burn spells. Different Temur decks need different things. I've played around with a few of the options but Anger never worked well for me in a deck that is at all ambitious on curve since I wanted to side out my x/4's generally and really 5 is where I tended to want to stop against decks I could rely on my dorks with. The way I actually beat those red decks is usually Atarka and being able to counter their burn to the face. That takes your dorks surviving. Gather Courage is possibly the best anti red counter spell. That being said I'm a dog game 1 unless I just get there and I'm depending on the opponent having red removal. I played against Boros and honestly it was my Bellower for Rec Sage that made a huge difference there, so this is being a bit narrow. As long as mono red is the only real aggro deck I don't think it's too hard to push this sort of plan. I've always played the aggro matchups close rather than really trying to control the game. They need to burn you out generally so my Stubborn Denials may only be gain 4's instead of 10's. But I can much easier play more of these type of cards without dedicated cards.
Feed the Clan I toyed with a bit but I never could stick with it because it was a special purpose counterspell like Gather Courage was. The difference was it required more setup. Where there were plenty of games Gather would make the difference and similarly I wouldn't be able to get Feed online til my back was already against the wall and they had some anti life gain card. The timing never worked for me, but everyone plays their lines a bit different.
I played Temur See the Unwritten at the WMCQ in Philly. I played pretty poorly and was compensated as such (5-3).
Sarkhan Unbroken was hot garbage all weekend.
Surrak Dragonclaw on the other hand? This guy is good. This guy is really good. Against Abzan Aggro he is an absolute house. He ambushes literally the entire deck, only dying to Abzan Charm or a huge Walker.
If I were in the Temur boat, I'd start jamming more of him.
Surrak is good in a land of Dromoka's Command (and by extension usually Ultimate Price). When size matters he's a rate you can't ignore. It means that Surrak has really only 1 truly bad matchup and it's Abzan Control. That's enough to delegate the card to sideboard for me but he's finally decently positioned. I'm not too surprised Sarkhan wasn't right in that list mind you as I suggested in my last comment. I was comparing Sarkhan to See the Unwritten and that's actually the right sort of way of looking at it. I don't think the deck can afford 6 See the Unwritten. Unless you are significantly ahead on presence can you really play Sarkhan. You need an additional creature to his dragon for each creature the opponent controls, and Languish a is a real issue so you usually can't just play it into Siege Rhino or if you do, draw a card (again only when you have additional blocker. Sarkhan is slow too. You play it to have a gradual CA engine typically. It's better than Whisperwood when you pack permission but it doesn't protect your board. You play cards like this when you need some value in the mid-late game so that you don't just 1 for 1'd out of the game as punishment for the amount of mana you play.
Brought the following list to a local FNM after driving 2 hours to get back home. Went straight from the highway to the LGS and went 4-1 with the following Temur list. First I'll post a quick rundown of matches.
R1 vs. Matthew (MonoRed/RW/something) 2-1
The guy wasn't great. So a miserable matchup turned into a fine one. Game 1 I hit all 3 Thunderbreak Regents and he had to kill each one with burn spells, leading to 12 damage over the course of the game. Game 2 I had in the bag. I stopped a Deflecting Palm with Wild Slash to knock him to 3, but should have attacked with my mana guys. Because at 3 he had enough life to crack two fetch lands and hit me with 2 Exquisite Firecrafts for dead. Game 3 was easy. Just a whole bunch of Stubborn Denial making him sad.
R2 vs. Brian (UR Tutelage) 2-1
I lost game 1 to a mana screw and him hitting double/triple Tutelage. Not much to say there. Game 2 hit landed an early Xenagos and had Back to Nature for when he tried to draw off his double Tutelage. Game 3 he was never able to get more than a single tutelage up at a time, and Savage Knuckleblade did the rest of the work. Anger of the Gods and Encase in Ice look really silly against Papa Knucks.
R3 vs. Travis (Mardu Aggro/Midrage) 2-1 Not a Dragons deck. It was playing things like Sarkhan, Elspeth, Hordeling Outburst, and Butcher of the Horde. Game 1 I got kinda lucky. I hit his Butcher with a Reality Shift after he sacked a whole bunch of goblins to it, and he manifested a Crackling Doom. At that point I had enough pressure to just fly over the top and kill him. Game 2 I couldn't get my footing and he smashed me with Goblins and Rabblemaster. Game 3 was close, and he landed a Sorin to Stabilize and go from 4 to 10. But I was able to Stormbreath and Craters Claws for exactly lethal.
R4 vs. Joshua (Abzan Control) 1-2
Game 1 saw me hit every elf in my deck. And Xenagos. Not exactly what you want to see vs. some one playing Drown in Sorrow and Languish. Game 2 was a piece of cake. I had all the right threats to his removal and all the right answers (Stubborn Denial) to his other things. Game 3 finally looked like I might stabilize, but I was at 1 after landing Atarka, and he had 2 guys left to kill me with.
R5 vs. Steven (Bant Megamorph) 2-0
Pretty easy, all things considered. Game 1 saw Thunderbreak Regent jump in early. I actually missed two Regent triggers when he tried to Dromoka's command his Deathmist Raptor and fight my dragon...twice. I had to Reality shift his guy, and he responded with the second Command...so I responded with the second shift. So I missed 6 damage that way. Didn't really matter, since I then dropped Stormbreath and knocked him to 6 with lethal in hand. Game 2 was just about the same. Double Regents make for rough beats against Deathmist Raptor decks, and I knew I could race it pretty easily.
Notes on individual cards.
Reality Shift is the only card that answers everything. Unfortunately. It's really not my favorite thing to be doing, but it answers Hangarback, Dragonlords, and various other flying threats all at instant speed on the cheap. The manifest they get can go either way. Sometimes they'll manifest a key removal spell or planeswalker. Other times they'll get a creature and you'll be back to square one. It's something you have to really measure and I don't blame anyone else who doesn't want to play it.
I'm split on Shaman of Forgotten Ways. Sometimes it's absolutely great. Other times it doesn't do enough. That said, It was VERY easy for me to get to the required 11 mana during the night, and I was able to activate the Shaman against my Abzan opponent in Game 1. I didn't, because then I'd die on the crack-back. But I almost had it.
Xenagos is still the best card in the deck. Man. It's insane and probably not even close. I wish I could find a way to play more of him. Stormbreath might be next, but Xenagos gives you everything this deck needs in just about every matchup.
Stubborn Denial is unreal. It's just so good and probably exactly what this deck wants. It's such a blowout against Abzan and UB. In my mind it's the single reason to be playing Temur over GR Dragons/Midrange/Aggro. If you're not playing Stubbs, why bother playing Blue at all? It means you get to laugh at Languish and removal spells.
Dragonlord Atarka and Crater's Claws are simply the best things you can be doing with all the man the deck makes. If I can, I'll never tap out for either, because leaving one blue open to represent stubbs is fantastic.
I'd like to fit some of the following into the deck, at least to test.
Icefall Regent: It seems like a decent hedge against other creature decks. Plus you might get to live the dream with it and Thunderbreak to make removing it extra difficult.
Draconic Roar: With 9 dragons main-deck, I feel like some number of these is pretty good. Unfortunately, my non-creature spell slots are pretty tight. I don't think it's better than Crater's Claws, and it's definitely worse than Reality Shift against Siege Rhino and Hangarback Walker.
Magma Spray: This can easily be put in instead of Wild Slash to deal with Hangarback. I like Slash against the odd Deflecting Palm or Foggy deck, though. And most of the decks that play Hangarback are also decks you REALLY don't want Spray against either.
Hornet Nest: If Goblins/Mono-red Dudes becomes more of the red-based meta than MonoRed Burn, Hornet Nest gets the nod over Feed the Clan. Man, I really hate Feed the Clan, but it's a pretty solid chunk of life...
I think your existing list is pretty good, there are a few metagame calls for the cards to test but most of them won't be good enough unless you have a specific need for certain interactions. Something Magma Spray or Hornet's Nest are those sort of cards but might be completely unnecessary. Although in my opinion Deflecting Palm versus exile isn't even a debate. Every random Ashcloud or Flamewake Phoenix, Hangarback, Den Protector, Bloodsoaked Champion. None of these may be a real thing right now, but they've all been more of a thing than Deflecting Palm ever has outside of that Draft to Constructed Boros player or think I'm too clever Jeskai player at the local FNM. Shaman is sometimes a "dead" draw but the payout if early is so huge it is a real consideration. Your top end is less ambitious than mine so it's less worth it definitely. Especially because it can't fuel Claws. Part of the reason I play so fat is I needed more payout to be worth playing that card for me that involved going up to 8 5 drops. That being said I guess it's a bit similar to Claws the incentive for me is basically casting creatures at a great discount and leaving up Clash of Wills.
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I played Temur See the Unwritten at the WMCQ in Philly. I played pretty poorly and was compensated as such (5-3).
Sarkhan Unbroken was hot garbage all weekend.
Surrak Dragonclaw on the other hand? This guy is good. This guy is really good. Against Abzan Aggro he is an absolute house. He ambushes literally the entire deck, only dying to Abzan Charm or a huge Walker.
If I were in the Temur boat, I'd start jamming more of him.
Surrak is good in a land of Dromoka's Command (and by extension usually Ultimate Price). When size matters he's a rate you can't ignore. It means that Surrak has really only 1 truly bad matchup and it's Abzan Control. That's enough to delegate the card to sideboard for me but he's finally decently positioned. I'm not too surprised Sarkhan wasn't right in that list mind you as I suggested in my last comment. I was comparing Sarkhan to See the Unwritten and that's actually the right sort of way of looking at it. I don't think the deck can afford 6 See the Unwritten. Unless you are significantly ahead on presence can you really play Sarkhan. You need an additional creature to his dragon for each creature the opponent controls, and Languish a is a real issue so you usually can't just play it into Siege Rhino or if you do, draw a card (again only when you have additional blocker. Sarkhan is slow too. You play it to have a gradual CA engine typically. It's better than Whisperwood when you pack permission but it doesn't protect your board. You play cards like this when you need some value in the mid-late game so that you don't just 1 for 1'd out of the game as punishment for the amount of mana you play.
Yeah. Ultimately, a lot of games came down to just not having enough large beaters. Walkers are sorta trash in the See the Unwritten strategies. Really, I should be trying the Atarka Abzan See the Unwritten lists but I'm a little wary of their mana.
The deck could easily support more Surrak, the Hunt Caller but I'm wary of jamming too many of him.
The more I look at it the more I like Dromoka. The fact that it isn't necessarily that hard to play is real. Christian had 4 lands to cast it off of, 4 Caryatid, and 2 Sarkhan. It really doesn't take anymore than that. I've been testing it the last day or so on my current mana (same list as my sig replace whisperwood). Which is 2 lands, 4 Caryatid + 3 Shaman, and 2 Sarkhan. My sources are definitely more conditional, but it makes cards like Gather Courage out of the board much better on their payout. It basically humiliates most red decks. Downside is it is pretty do nothing against Abzan Control. It's passable against Abzan Aggro. I do find it interesting that it sort of makes Dragonclaw redundant. I'm not sure that's in a bad way though. Having so many can't be countered threats makes it really difficult for control especially when you have your own counterspells. In basic Dromoka is the best card at holding the skies with Sarkhan to pull the long game. Shaman + Xenagos is still the safety switch if things try to go too long. I know I'm talking all in context of my list but I can't help but feel while the posted list does some good things it's only leveraging part of the card which adds quite a different element to a lot of matchups.
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Rolled FNM but a lot of not real decks. Abzan aggro is still a joke. Control is fine assuming you sequence your stuff correctly. SB still needs a ton of work. Surrak Dragonclaw is still nuts in the current meta.
Lots of EOT Surrak into See the Unwritten all while the opponent thought it was ok to tap out.
I'd like another Xenagos, the Reveler and maybe something like Rabblemaster. Or whatever.
Match 1: RG devo splash U 1-2
Game 1 I got a lot of my dragons out and just won the game. Game 2 I sided in my angers and stroke, siding out dorks. Opponent also sided out dorks so the angers were dead cards. I was hitting in the air with regent and SBD. Eventually a hornet queen came out and I was not able to draw claws. Game 3 was very much the same as game 2. Consecutive genesis hydras is no fun at all. Oh and windstorm from the side does an amazing job at killing dragons.
Match 2: Monored burn 2-1
Game 1 went very fast. 2 dorks were hit with searing blood and a couple swiftspears were hitting me. Game 2 I side in 3 anger, 3 feed the clan, 2 roast siding out some dorks and the big guys and a couple satyrs. T3 anger, T4 polukranos, T5 monstrous, claws for the win. Game 3 still the same but no polky in hand. Swiftspears were swinging and opponent tapped out for lightning strike and slash. EOT boon satyr, next turn shaman. Opponent was out of gas at that point and I cast feed the clan the next turn. That's pretty much it. Sadly no firecraft for that opponent.
Match 3: BG elves 2-1
Game 1 was just too fast with a collected company hitting 2 shamans. Dead before I knew what hit me. SB package same as monored. Games 2 and 3 were very explosive games. Game 2 I went T1 elf, T2 morph, T3 stormbreath. Denial on CoCo, bestow on SBD then eventually win. Game 3 I let opponent build up board state, anger, polky, keranos, win.
Match 4: Monored burn 2-0
Firecraft, dragon fodder, denizen, the hurts are all present. Opponent did not manage to bring out swiftspear so when I got polky out, the board has been pretty much stabilized. Games 2 and 3 went pretty much the same with T3 anger, polky, feed the clan.
The funky parts are atarka, whisperwood and keranos. I only have 2 SBD and I'm looking for additional top ends. Luckily I have both whisperwood and keranos so I just threw them in there. Kiora is also a questionable inclusion as xenagos is always better. I will switch to xenagos maybe by next week, though kiora did serve well with her -1 ability (+1 was activated just to keep her alive).
The SB does contain a lot of enchantment/artifact hate since there were a lot of guys at the LGS running UG turbofog tutelage and those decks are a real pain. However, once the tutelage is taken out, it's gonna get a lot better. But I did not get matched with any of them so a large part of my SB was practically useless all night.
Ugin is the other option. This one I haven't tried. It might actually be really good against those decks, although you basically lose you whole board if you want to prevent Tragic Arrogance from being a thing. I would really have to see what sort of timing. If Perplexing Chimera was not an enchantment I'd seriously consider it. That's the sort of going deep I was hoping for. Dromoka's Command is so prevalent. I've been really trying to make an enchantment less Temur deck.
@sleepystoner: Love the card choices. Have a real hard time with the mana. 13 Red is insufficient for Phoenix, maybe that's fine, but it's even fringe problematic for Thunderbreak. 9 Blue is insufficient for Knuckleblade. Basically your 3 drops are never set to play on 3 let alone on 2 unless you land Rattleclaw and they don't kill it which is pretty much not happening right now unless you are against GW I guess. Basically this deck will stumble early on mana such a high percentage of the time the investment on those early threats will be very awkward. To play a deck that greedy on costs you would at minimum need 3 Shivan Reef Cutting the basic Island and 2 Mountains for it. I would also probably trade a Forest for a Mana Confluence. Even then though you'd be short on red. To really take advantage of Phoenix you want 16-18 red. Which gets you in a range where you probably want 1 or 2 lands of the Rugged Highland variety(if you are skipping temples). You don't
The mana probably should look like this to cover your colours:
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mana Confluence
4 Frontier Biovac
1 Rugged Highland
1 Swift Water Cliffs
I'm thinking some Swift Water Cliffs over the Reefs due to pain, but they are so much worse than temples it's probably best to keep the taplands at 6. If mana confluence is a problem I'd put in 1 more Rugged Highland for it.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I'm having problems with temur charm myself. I don't know how to time it well enough for it to be effective given my mana base. 11G with 4 from pain lands is just too painful. Maybe it's an inherent issue with my list and I find using it as a counter most of the time. The fight mode and the power through mode seems really good but I haven't had the chance to use it since I can easily get rid of thopters with anger. With this, I'd prefer a 4th scorn over it for now.
Anyway, I just found out that GR devo w/ hornet queen and RUbots play very differently. Usually, I can wait for the RUbots to go wide and then cast anger to clear the board, unless they go big with scissors then I'm dead before I can do anything game1. As with devo, I find myself wanting to cast anger turn 3/4 to clear the board of their dorks. This is very disruptive for their part and they have a hard time recovering from it. The problem is if the game drags on and they get a hornet queen out. I find it a problem card and this is where temur charm shines. However, most of the time I just wish I have another anger at hand to deal all of them.
RBW Mardu Reveler
Commander:
UW Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper - One-Punch Griffin || UR Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain - Historic Tribal Superfriends
GR Omnath, Locus of Rage - Turbo Lands Spellslinger || WURBG Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Living Death Reanimator
BGonti, Lord of Luxury - Gonti's Midnight Party
Under Construction:
WGU Rubinia Soulsinger - Enchantress || RBGU Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Cascading Artifacts
RU Jhoira of the Ghitu - Dragonstorm Eldrazi || RU Mizzix of the Izmagnus - Spellslinger
WURBG The Ur-Dragon - Cloning for the Win || WGU Roon of the Hidden Realm - Creature Toolbox
RBGU Vial Smasher the Fierce Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix - Lots'a Combos || BW Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Reanimator Combo
WBGU Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Modified Precon
BUR Nekusar, the Mindrazer || U Arcanis the Omnipotent - Artifact "Storm"
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Frontier Bivouac
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Shivan Reef
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creature(26):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Abzan Beastmaster
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Woodland Bellower
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Magma Spray
1 Crater's Claws
2 Clash of Wills
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Gather Courage
1 Magma Spray
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Roast
2 Reality Shift
2 Back to Nature
2 Hornet Nest
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Mob Rule
EDIT: I won an 8 man yesterday with the list above, so it felt not bad. Abzan Beastmater was a bit of a dud, so I started testing Reverent Hunter to good results. But I wanted to see how much more I could take it. I may have gone off the deep end but I figured if I'm making the investment I am why not push it even harder. Consider this list:
3 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Temple of Abandon
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creature(29):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
2 Deathmist Raptor
1 Reverent Hunter
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Whisperwood Elemental
2 Woodland Bellower
3 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Clash of Wills
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Gather Courage
2 Magma Spray
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Roast
2 Reality Shift
2 Back to Nature
2 Hornet Nest
1 Barrage of Boulders
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
3x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Deathmist Raptor
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4x Ashcloud Phoenix
1x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Xenagos, God of Revels
3x Dragonlord Atarka
Planeswalkers: (4)
2x Sarkhan Unbroken
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
4x See the Unwritten
1x Crater's Claws
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
4x Yavimaya Coast
1x Shivan Reef
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forest
4x Mountain
2x Magma Spray
2x Arbor Colossus
1x Harbinger of the Hunt
1x Arc Lightning
2x Roast
1x Back to Nature
2x Shaman of the Great Hunt
1x Surrak Dragonclaw
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Stubborn Denial
See the Unwritten is still the best card in the deck. Hangarback Walker isn't a huge concern since you can just fly over.
I'm probably going to have to cut Xenagos, God of Revels since hangarback abzan runs a minimum of 3 Dromoka's Command.
Maybe I'll cut one and just play another Surrak, the Hunt Caller.
You wouldn't think Sarkhan Unbroken would be good in a deck like this (since you can't fetch him off a See the Unwritten) but he provides recurring ferocious and ramps you into 6 mana, which is where this deck is trying to operate since it unmorphs an Ashcloud Phoenix and is, well, See the Unwritten mana.
Match 1: Temur midrange 2-0
Both games went relatively fast. Opponent (who was on the play for 2 games) turns on both games were T1 elf, T2 caryatid, T3 xenagos. I had anger both games so I just wiped board on my turn 3 and a hasted knuckleblade on T4 to kill xenagos. Followed by a T5 stormbreath and T6 sarkhan, the games were easily sealed.
Match 2: UG Turbofog tutelage 2-0
Started game 1 with T3 knux, T4 regent. The rest of the turns were spent on burn/counters until opponent's tutelage is just too slow. Game 2 I had back to nature in and just wiped the monastery siege, dictate of kruphix and tutelage (tutelage was cast the same turn). Swing with stormbreath and opponent just doesnt have a hard removal to deal with it.
Match 3: Abzan control (1-2)
Game 1 was spent on explosive starts. T1 denial thoughtseize, T2 jet/scry, T3/T4 scorn charm and thoughtseize, T5 regent, T6 stormbreath. Game 2 I was stuck on 4 lands and I don't feel comfortable casting my spells without mana for denial, knowing that black has a lot of hard removal. Opponent eventually got an elspeth out with me stuck at nothing. Game 3 was very similar to game 2. My only mistake was I sided out 2 angers thinking that opponent has sided out elspeth after I scorned one the previous game.
Match 4: Temur midrange 2-0
Game 1 was very fast. Opponent was stuck on 3 lands, 1 mystic, 2 caryatid. T3 anger pretty much closed out the game. Game 2 opponent has T1 mystic, T2 caryatid, T3 hornet nest, T4 xenagos and I had no creatures. Had to anger to clear board though nest exploded and xenagos was able to summon regent. I summon regent on my turn and then traded it with the opposing regent. Next turn opponent's xenagos pumps out a hornet queen so pretty much everything is locked up. Anticipate at eot for anger, wipe board then slash xenagos. Next turn opponent's xenagos summoned a satyr and attacked. Next turn I swung a hasted knux on xenagos to kill it. Opponent then summoned top decked polukranos. I top deck kiora and had kiora lock down polukranos. Eventually summoned stormbreath dragon, burnt enemy then crater's claws.
Changes:
Aetherspouts just seemed too slow for me, replaced with draconic roar. Why only 1 roar? Well I can't find my 2nd roar so that's it.
Thoughts:
I'm not seeing how useful temur charm is for the current meta at my place. It just seems too slow. I'd rather replace those with a slash and a denial. 2 denial is just too few to have a fast-paced game. Magma spray is perfect. It burns opponents and it lets you set up your next draw. It's small advantages like this that I prefer over raw power. 2 crater's claws is very good for my burn-counter oriented list. 1 is good but 2 is where I want it at. And is Surrak really needed? I haven't seen any UB/esper control lists in the last few weeks and I haven't needed his trample against thopters. For me, killing scissors is more important that powering through thopters. That doesn't mean I'd let thopters get to critical mass though.
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Icefall Regent
1 Dragonlord Atarka
Lands (25)
4 Mountain
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Swiftwater Cliffs
3 Shivan Reef
2 Island
3 Temple of Abandon
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Temple of Epiphany
3 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Magma Jet
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Anticipate
2 Wild Slash
2 Temur Charm
1 Draconic Roar
1 Dig Through Time
1 Stoke the Flames
Sorcery (5)
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Crater's Claws
Planeswalker (3)
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Back to Nature
2 Reality Shift
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Feed the Clan
2 Roast
1 Unravel the Æther
1 Perilous Vault
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
RBW Mardu Reveler
Commander:
UW Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper - One-Punch Griffin || UR Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain - Historic Tribal Superfriends
GR Omnath, Locus of Rage - Turbo Lands Spellslinger || WURBG Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Living Death Reanimator
BGonti, Lord of Luxury - Gonti's Midnight Party
Under Construction:
WGU Rubinia Soulsinger - Enchantress || RBGU Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Cascading Artifacts
RU Jhoira of the Ghitu - Dragonstorm Eldrazi || RU Mizzix of the Izmagnus - Spellslinger
WURBG The Ur-Dragon - Cloning for the Win || WGU Roon of the Hidden Realm - Creature Toolbox
RBGU Vial Smasher the Fierce Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix - Lots'a Combos || BW Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Reanimator Combo
WBGU Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Modified Precon
BUR Nekusar, the Mindrazer || U Arcanis the Omnipotent - Artifact "Storm"
Hi, this is my first post here. Sorry for my bad english, jejeje.
I played lastnight using this deck and I got 3 wins and 1 draw. The deck worked just great. I played against Jeskai aggro(2-1), UR ensoul artifact(2-0), Monored aggro(2-1) and Abzan midrange(1-1).
1- Jeskai Aggro 2-1
First hand was just perfect, my hand with 1 anger of the gods, 1 icefall regent, 1 draconic roar, 1 silumgar's scorn and lands(then my draws were: thunderbreak regent and burn spells). Just wait for him to put in play jace, soulfire and a mantis and I played anger of the gods. Then I played a thunderbreak regent, he played a mantis, then I tapped his mantis with my icefall regent and that was game 1.
Game two my hand was good but my oponnent sideboarded a lot of counters (negate and disdainful stroke). He countered my dragons, put in game an elspeth and a dragonlord ojutai and that was.
changes after game 2:
-1 sarkhan unbroken
-1 temur charm
-1 kiora
-1 ugin
+icefall regent
+anger of the gods
+2 feed the clan
Game three was very similar at game 1 but after wipe the board I played a thunderbreak regent, then a Sarkhan unbroken and he just didn´t have answer for them.
2- UR ensoul artifact 2-0
Game 1: he played a T1 Ornithopter, T3 hangarback. I played a anger of the gods. Then just burn his creatures and playing mine(keeping 1 mana untapped for his Stubborn denial just worked great).
Game 2: Mulligan to 6 (not burn and counter)then got a silumgar's scorn, 1 draconic and 1 wild slash. Burn and counter his creatures until having mana to play thunderbreak and icefall regent.
The sideboard changes were the same used vs Jeskai aggro.
3.- Monored 2-1
Game 1: My hand: 1 anger of the gods, 1 feed the clan, 1 draconic roar, 1 Savage Knuckleblade.
He keeped a hand with 1 land and not draw another until turn 3 (monastery swiftspear and a berseker in play)that give
me the time to Anger him, play knuckleblade and feed the clan. Won game 1.
changes after game 1:
-2 sarkhan unbroken
-2 temur charm
-1 kiora
-1 ugin
+2 twin bolt
+1 anger of the gods
+3 feed the clan
Game 2: My mistake for keeping a hand just with creatures and counter, no burn spells. T1 monastery, T2 monastery and Zurgo, T3 counter the 3 token sorcery but it just was too late, Loss game 2.
Game 3: 2 feed the clan, 1 twin bolt, 1 wild slash in hand. He played 2 stoke the flames to kill my 2 knuckleblade, then he has no answers for my icefall and thunderbreak regent.
4-Abzan Midrange 1-1
Game 1: Counter his Courser and counter his rhino give me time for play kiora and a sarkhan, knowing about the huge amount of removal I used a scryland first(keeping the land on top) and play the Kiora -1 ability to draw and play another land. With sarkhan put a dragon...he killed both of my PW(used 3 downfall for the 2 PW and the dragon token). Then Languish just for my knuckleblade then I know he have no creatures to play.
I played 3 dragons(blue and red regent and stormbreath), he destroyed them with elspeth, then return rhino with den and I have no answers for them I loose game 1.
changes after game 1:
-2 Anger of the gods
-2 wild slash
-1 twin bolt
-1 anticipate
+1 Perilous vault
+2 Icefall regent
+3 feed the clan
Game 2, was very fast. Play 2 feed the clan with ferocius from knuckleblade. I let him put 1 den and 2 rhinos in play, having a crater´s claw in hand I played thunderbreak regent and icefall regent, attack him twice and "claw" him. Win game 2
Game 3, very slow. In afew words he played elspeth 3 times (returning her with den protector). I draw all my anger of the gods wiping the elspeth´s tokens. Game 3 draw.
Like veritoanimus said, it´s a awesome deck vs aggro, but against Abzan or another midrange deck is a challenge, I´m thinking of putting in 2 or 3 stubborn denial in my Sideboard and taking out 1 sarkhan, 1 crater´s claw... and maybe 1 temur charm from the main. My logic used here is to stay ready for the removal (or PW)after playing your creatures.
Something like this:
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Epiphany
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Shivan Reef
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creatures (11)
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Icefall Regent
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sorcery (4)
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Crater's Claws
Instant (15)
2 Anticipate
1 Dig Through Time
1 Temur Charm
1 Stubborn denial
3 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Draconic Roar
2 Wild Slash
1 Twin Bolt
1 Feed the Clan
1 Ætherspouts
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Icefall Regent
1 Ætherspouts
2 Stubborn denial
2 Twin Bolt
1 Perilous Vault
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Back to Nature
3 Feed the Clan
Yeah before Bellower was legal I was sort of playing a deck like this to see if I thought it could feasible. My concern was of course running into Counterspells. I decided after a little testing I'd just have to wait for Bellower because setting up See the Unwritten took considerably my work. Like if I got a good dork draw I usually didn't want to slam it T4 if you could play a ferocious creature first whereas Bellower you most certainly would. Like you'd rather sandbag a Stormbreath in many situations than a Bellower, and See the Unwritten sort of forces your hand if you want to up your odds. Ultimately it was a counterspell issue with control and the matchup felt close but slightly unfavorable which I wasn't comfortable with at the time. I could be more comfortable with it recently but I generally prefer playing decks that show control decks whose their master. It was hard to play the right tools to make it even on the positive side. Obviously the first things you board out are the See the Unwrittens, but it went beyond that and was sort of fundamental to me making the shift to only counterspell reactive spells main. Basically you always want a deck right now (and even then) that has the ability to stop decks from going all in faster than you for a trivial opportunity cost. This means an ability to take out a T2 Ensoul or that Ascendancy etc or even that Stoke or opposing See the Unwritten or Atarka. Sarkhan is good in the deck, to enable Ferocity, but is the deck actually better off with Dragons over Whisperwood when it relies on it's board so much. Don't get me wrong I'm playing the exact same game. Seeing how much I can borrow from GR Devotion without getting stuck ground pounding and not being able to close games fast enough. But we can't depend on being faster in the head to head, and we should consider if the tradeoff makes us better in other matchups (like control which has been a weakness of Devotion).
The most interesting stuff to me is the tension between the fact that Control has to be making a comeback soon making this list tougher and the fact that Ashcloud in a world of Wild Slashes, Magma Sprays, and Searing Bloods seems so much worse than Regent. Even Hangerback Walker for that matter. That being said those were probably 2 weeks ago and if this week is dragons maybe Ashcloud is just good enough to cover your bases into a control metagame.
Yeah everything you described is what happens when you play a lot of spells and not enough threats. I understand it's intentional but it's really hard for a deck with expensive spells to effectively play a tempo game purely off spells. You guys keep posting these almost control like lists but let's face it, we do not really have control in these colors. There is no room for missing stuff. You have to have the spells line up right and leave no room. If you are a better player than most of your opponents you hard effort will probably pay off, but if your opponent gets around it the deck has no safety valve something every control deck needs. These lists remind of when a formats new and mono red is king and people bring out GW Lifegain as a deck. The GW Lifegain deck is really good in that field, and is even passable against control because it has a lot of creatures that can attack that are slightly bigger. But it has no real power so when a proactive real deck comes along it looks like it does absolutely nothing and gets completely crushed.
There is a big reason why UR is almost never a deck in Standard unless their is a combo or engine that it can be built around. Those are the most do nothing colours in magic together. The rare exceptions is if you are basically playing a blue heavy creature deck with a red splash. You add the 3rd colour it can be wildly different since both colours provide great elements, but UR on it's own is really good if you are satisfied by some perverted notion of whipping your deck out and shuffling it in front of people. Maybe your opponent likes to watch. Where RUG is different is it is generally G first.. it's GRu or GUr because outside of Tarmogoyf in Legacy which is an insane rate the green splash adds things that are unneeded. Red already has big creatures in dragons. It just doesn't have the biggest creatures along the curve or a way to accelerate. This usually means green is a key part of the mana if you are looking for that.
So back to the heavy spell versions. If the opponent lands one good threat and has permission backed up.. Or let's say they land a Siege Rhino do you really have time to play around these games. It's like playing Abzan Control with worse cards outside of the control mirror. You are probably slightly better against green devotion too, but it's arguable because you can also just draw the wrong parts of the deck and never be able to come back. Can you picture if your opponent ever had Denial for that Anger or you didn't have Anger. There is such a huge chance that event looks completely different. SImilarly what if they T2 Knucks.. and Anger did nothing. Or if someone was wise enough to expect knuckleblade after anger when they see Temur colours and just leave their Token back on an open board. I do it all the time. Knuckleblade generally doesn't beat Xenagos... I'd rather be the person who just had my board wiped with the Xenagos than the person with Knuckleblade most of the time.
The problem comes in if you stumble and don't have the right answer in a deck like this you might be left holding up the wrong answer instead of promoting your gameplan. You need so many spells because the deck needs a variety and density of answers since none of the answers are that good universally. In Abzan it's pretty easy to play less 1 of this etc.. it's like 4 Abzan Charm no brainer.. Maybe 3 Heroes Downfall etc.. There is this consistency there. Even if you answer you need to be ready to pounce afterwards. Knuckleblade is good there. The unfortunate part is if they don't bite, because they've already recognized on pure colour basis they are advantaged you might have a hard time. What if they just don't play anything except EoT draw cards with Abzan Charm and keep up removal. I don't know if Temur Control can even walk toe to toe with Abzan card for card. I find Abzan matchups easy because I can always force their hand and basically break their pattern and time walk them to get very far ahead. If you aren't doing anything they care about maybe they just don't fall for the cheap tricks. And that is the real concern here, since their is this deficit of real power in UR the tricks are always cheap tricks and usually if expected quite easy to play around. Your opponent is in no real fear of you doing something devastating. WHat's the worst thing that can happen you counter a spell, or Aetherspout them. Your spells aren't any cheaper or more efficient so outside of counter, Knucks sort of line you don't get ahead and if they don't fall for the counter.. well nothing happens and maybe their bigger spells are better.
I always lament Temur Charms power in that it looks like it's a decent card but it isn't ever really. But maybe it's the perfect analog here. The card epitomizes the exact problem with play Temur in this fashion. The card is pretty decent trick to build on something and it can be a blow out, but generally nothing it does is just quite powerful enough and it's overcosted for the type of deck that would want to use that sort of plan. What you end up with a card that actually feels like less than the sum of it's parts because it's cost invalidates it.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90070
As for myself I'm done with gimmicky approaches. You need to try them out at the beginning of each format, but for me Woodland Bellower is a bust for now. Until Nykthos and Genesis Hydra go away. Don't get me wrong. The card is decent with the right support. But the best play really was T1 Elf, T2 Shaman of the Forgotten Ways, T3 Bellower + Reverent Hunter as a 6/6. This is a powerful opening to be sure but drawing the Hunter was awkward, and playing more than one Hunter was awkward. Basically Deathmist, Knuckles, and Hunter were all the same card slightly different so unless there was an enchantment you really wanted to kill nothing really stood out as a target. And the inconsistency of drawing the Reclamation Sage or Elf, Hunter, all Dragons opener was enough to make it not as powerful as it needed to be. If it was always the biggest game in town I could live with that variance but Nykthos says otherwise.
Mind you some good stuff came out of that. Like I like Whisperwood better than the 3rd or 4th Sarkhan. Shaman of the Forgotten Ways is like Lotus Cobra (and is an x/3). I never thought I'd like a Dreamweaver Druid but this one has been good (I'm sure until I run into Draconic Roar.dec). Obviously it isn't as good as Cobra but it gives you that play ahead of the curve leave permission up angle that I miss from Cobra days. Those lines are usually much better than jamming Bellower at 6. Playing a 5 drop and leaving up Denial is much more potent usually.. I want my mana to survive so Caryatid is back.
The other thing was I got a good feel of how far I could stretch the mana with Knuckles. I side Knuckles out a lot but he's the best intermediate play now I think so I'm going to jam him. The trick though is play 25 lands. I've been on that before but I wasn't playing enough Temples. I'm trying to shift around the base again.
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Frontier Bivouac
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creature(26):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
2 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Dragonlord Atarka
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Clash of Wills
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Gather Courage
2 Magma Spray
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Reality Shift
2 Back to Nature
2 Roast
1 Hornet Nest
1 Barrage of Boulders
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Arbor Colossus
I have 2 free sideboard spots right now. Mainly that this list is probably like 75% against Abzan Control. Whisperwood gives the dragons even more wrath protection, and allows you to even sandbag them against Elspeth. Roast might be what I want against Abzan Aggro but the matchup is already reasonable. I've been finding this list pretty good across the board but it really sticks out how good it is against Abzan. The trickiest part is if they have Dromoka they will bring it in against you because of the permission. Which means that Dromoka Tragic Arrogance is a thing. Mind you if they are missing either side they fall easily. The permission main makes control decent too. Basically the last 2 spots are probably removal spells, like Roast or more Magma Sprays. I was considering Draconic Roar other than I usually side out my Stormbreaths against decks that I really need more burn, so unless Abzan Aggro or Jeskai are problematic I don't see it. It's possible I'm just supposed to play some awkward cards versus fliers like Arbor Colossus or Plummet. Colossus + Surrak are even decent upper end subs against red aggro given their 6 toughness and even Dromoka's Command decks, since outside of pure GW Deathmist is on a bit of a decline and Knuckleblade does nothing a lot of times in both places.
So the way I see it is you either have to play Dromoka or Ugin or cater to removing it. However outside of Dromoka, permission deals with every other top end threat including Ugin. So in Temur Dragons it was a sort of given to me. However that 4 color list is interesting. It feels even better paired with the permission than my list. The burn might be wasted on it. It has this manic thing where it attacks in 2 phases but doesn't really have a bridge. That will work generally if you can keep the pressure on long enough while you draw the mana to get to plan 2, however if you get there and you kept the pressure up why haven't you won? I have the same issue trying to justify Atarka. But I can force a bigger window. If the opponent just Hero's your Dromoka or End Hostilities it's unlikely even Ugin gets you back or a couple Draconic Roars since if they were good enough you would have won the game already.
EDIT: Updated my list above.. Trying something a little greedier but it's hard to deny the pure card quality. I mean no deck has more dragons.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4x Boon Satyr
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Frost Walker
3x Heir of the Wilds
2x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Savage Knuckleblade
1x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
5x Forest
4x Frontier Bivouac
4x Island
4x Mountain
2x Shivan Reef
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x Lightning Strike
2x Stubborn Denial
4x Crater's Claws
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
The plan is to eventually add
4x Stormbreath dragon
maybe an extra surrak?
let me know what you guys think, thanks!
Ryansolid, have you tested this deck against aggro decks? I always have problems with them when I play Temur with no anger of the gods and no feed the clan.
With 10 R sources, I foresee trouble casting Ashcloud or Stormbreath.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
thanks!
That's one solution. You want G on turn 1, so you need ~11 untapped G sources. You want RR or GG on t3, so that's ~16 of each. Mystics count for a few G. You want U on t2, so that's about 11 U sources. A challenge without using fetches.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I was thinking maybe on doubling up my pain lands (going 4x shivan reef) and looking for some stomping grounds. Wooded foothills are definitely out of my budget right now though.
I'd hold off on Stomping Grounds...they're not Standard legal...soooo...
But I'd buy foothills. If you want to play a 3-color deck in standard you kinda need Fetch lands. There's really no comparison.
Fetches are expensive, but represent just about the best value. Stormbreath is irreplaceable, but in 6 weeks: toast. With only 4 taplands currently, my value advice would be to get even a pair of fetches and a pair of the gainlands (rugged Highlands?) if your budget permits.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Sarkhan Unbroken was hot garbage all weekend.
Surrak Dragonclaw on the other hand? This guy is good. This guy is really good. Against Abzan Aggro he is an absolute house. He ambushes literally the entire deck, only dying to Abzan Charm or a huge Walker.
If I were in the Temur boat, I'd start jamming more of him.
Updated list:
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Deathmist Raptor
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4x Ashcloud Phoenix
1x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Surrak Dragonclaw
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
3x Dragonlord Atarka
4x See the Unwritten
Lands: (23)
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
4x Yavimaya Coast
1x Shivan Reef
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forest
4x Mountain
1x Disperse
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Back to Nature
1x Magma Spray
2x Arc Lightning
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Arbor Colossus
2x Roast
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
Ashcloud Phoenix is just too good against Abzan Control. It's pretty garbage against Abzan aggro and the like. You can just swap her out.
Surrak Dragonclaw is fantastic since you can flash eot and give your See the Unwritten ferocious.
I have nothing but high praise for this guy.
Sarkhan Unbroken was terrible for the past week and I should've cut him before the WMCQ.
R1 vs. Matthew (MonoRed/RW/something) 2-1
The guy wasn't great. So a miserable matchup turned into a fine one. Game 1 I hit all 3 Thunderbreak Regents and he had to kill each one with burn spells, leading to 12 damage over the course of the game. Game 2 I had in the bag. I stopped a Deflecting Palm with Wild Slash to knock him to 3, but should have attacked with my mana guys. Because at 3 he had enough life to crack two fetch lands and hit me with 2 Exquisite Firecrafts for dead. Game 3 was easy. Just a whole bunch of Stubborn Denial making him sad.
R2 vs. Brian (UR Tutelage) 2-1
I lost game 1 to a mana screw and him hitting double/triple Tutelage. Not much to say there. Game 2 hit landed an early Xenagos and had Back to Nature for when he tried to draw off his double Tutelage. Game 3 he was never able to get more than a single tutelage up at a time, and Savage Knuckleblade did the rest of the work. Anger of the Gods and Encase in Ice look really silly against Papa Knucks.
R3 vs. Travis (Mardu Aggro/Midrage) 2-1
Not a Dragons deck. It was playing things like Sarkhan, Elspeth, Hordeling Outburst, and Butcher of the Horde. Game 1 I got kinda lucky. I hit his Butcher with a Reality Shift after he sacked a whole bunch of goblins to it, and he manifested a Crackling Doom. At that point I had enough pressure to just fly over the top and kill him. Game 2 I couldn't get my footing and he smashed me with Goblins and Rabblemaster. Game 3 was close, and he landed a Sorin to Stabilize and go from 4 to 10. But I was able to Stormbreath and Craters Claws for exactly lethal.
R4 vs. Joshua (Abzan Control) 1-2
Game 1 saw me hit every elf in my deck. And Xenagos. Not exactly what you want to see vs. some one playing Drown in Sorrow and Languish. Game 2 was a piece of cake. I had all the right threats to his removal and all the right answers (Stubborn Denial) to his other things. Game 3 finally looked like I might stabilize, but I was at 1 after landing Atarka, and he had 2 guys left to kill me with.
R5 vs. Steven (Bant Megamorph) 2-0
Pretty easy, all things considered. Game 1 saw Thunderbreak Regent jump in early. I actually missed two Regent triggers when he tried to Dromoka's command his Deathmist Raptor and fight my dragon...twice. I had to Reality shift his guy, and he responded with the second Command...so I responded with the second shift. So I missed 6 damage that way. Didn't really matter, since I then dropped Stormbreath and knocked him to 6 with lethal in hand. Game 2 was just about the same. Double Regents make for rough beats against Deathmist Raptor decks, and I knew I could race it pretty easily.
2x Boon Satyr
2x Dragonlord Atarka
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Savage Knuckleblade
2x Shaman of Forgotten Ways
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3x Thunderbreak Regent
Planeswalker (2)
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
Sorcery (4)
3x Crater's Claws
1x Roast
2x Reality Shift
3x Stubborn Denial
Land (23)
3x Forest
3x Frontier Bivouac
1x Island
1x Mana Confluence
2x Mountain
1x Shivan Reef
3x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Temple of Mystery
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Yavimaya Coast
2x Back to Nature
2x Den Protector
3x Disdainful Stroke
2x Feed the Clan
2x Roast
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Surrak Dragonclaw
2x Wild Slash
Notes on individual cards.
Reality Shift is the only card that answers everything. Unfortunately. It's really not my favorite thing to be doing, but it answers Hangarback, Dragonlords, and various other flying threats all at instant speed on the cheap. The manifest they get can go either way. Sometimes they'll manifest a key removal spell or planeswalker. Other times they'll get a creature and you'll be back to square one. It's something you have to really measure and I don't blame anyone else who doesn't want to play it.
I'm split on Shaman of Forgotten Ways. Sometimes it's absolutely great. Other times it doesn't do enough. That said, It was VERY easy for me to get to the required 11 mana during the night, and I was able to activate the Shaman against my Abzan opponent in Game 1. I didn't, because then I'd die on the crack-back. But I almost had it.
Xenagos is still the best card in the deck. Man. It's insane and probably not even close. I wish I could find a way to play more of him. Stormbreath might be next, but Xenagos gives you everything this deck needs in just about every matchup.
Stubborn Denial is unreal. It's just so good and probably exactly what this deck wants. It's such a blowout against Abzan and UB. In my mind it's the single reason to be playing Temur over GR Dragons/Midrange/Aggro. If you're not playing Stubbs, why bother playing Blue at all? It means you get to laugh at Languish and removal spells.
Dragonlord Atarka and Crater's Claws are simply the best things you can be doing with all the man the deck makes. If I can, I'll never tap out for either, because leaving one blue open to represent stubbs is fantastic.
I'd like to fit some of the following into the deck, at least to test.
Icefall Regent: It seems like a decent hedge against other creature decks. Plus you might get to live the dream with it and Thunderbreak to make removing it extra difficult.
Draconic Roar: With 9 dragons main-deck, I feel like some number of these is pretty good. Unfortunately, my non-creature spell slots are pretty tight. I don't think it's better than Crater's Claws, and it's definitely worse than Reality Shift against Siege Rhino and Hangarback Walker.
Magma Spray: This can easily be put in instead of Wild Slash to deal with Hangarback. I like Slash against the odd Deflecting Palm or Foggy deck, though. And most of the decks that play Hangarback are also decks you REALLY don't want Spray against either.
Hornet Nest: If Goblins/Mono-red Dudes becomes more of the red-based meta than MonoRed Burn, Hornet Nest gets the nod over Feed the Clan. Man, I really hate Feed the Clan, but it's a pretty solid chunk of life...
Yep, although really only the red variety. I imagine mono black aggro would be just awkward enough but I could be wrong. I'm not considering Abzan or Jeskai Aggro as aggro in this comparison since they are really midrange decks. Firstly I'm going to say those 2 last removal slots are usually removal that can be used in red matchups. Usually I do find I need a certain threshold of burn spells. Different Temur decks need different things. I've played around with a few of the options but Anger never worked well for me in a deck that is at all ambitious on curve since I wanted to side out my x/4's generally and really 5 is where I tended to want to stop against decks I could rely on my dorks with. The way I actually beat those red decks is usually Atarka and being able to counter their burn to the face. That takes your dorks surviving. Gather Courage is possibly the best anti red counter spell. That being said I'm a dog game 1 unless I just get there and I'm depending on the opponent having red removal. I played against Boros and honestly it was my Bellower for Rec Sage that made a huge difference there, so this is being a bit narrow. As long as mono red is the only real aggro deck I don't think it's too hard to push this sort of plan. I've always played the aggro matchups close rather than really trying to control the game. They need to burn you out generally so my Stubborn Denials may only be gain 4's instead of 10's. But I can much easier play more of these type of cards without dedicated cards.
Feed the Clan I toyed with a bit but I never could stick with it because it was a special purpose counterspell like Gather Courage was. The difference was it required more setup. Where there were plenty of games Gather would make the difference and similarly I wouldn't be able to get Feed online til my back was already against the wall and they had some anti life gain card. The timing never worked for me, but everyone plays their lines a bit different.
Surrak is good in a land of Dromoka's Command (and by extension usually Ultimate Price). When size matters he's a rate you can't ignore. It means that Surrak has really only 1 truly bad matchup and it's Abzan Control. That's enough to delegate the card to sideboard for me but he's finally decently positioned. I'm not too surprised Sarkhan wasn't right in that list mind you as I suggested in my last comment. I was comparing Sarkhan to See the Unwritten and that's actually the right sort of way of looking at it. I don't think the deck can afford 6 See the Unwritten. Unless you are significantly ahead on presence can you really play Sarkhan. You need an additional creature to his dragon for each creature the opponent controls, and Languish a is a real issue so you usually can't just play it into Siege Rhino or if you do, draw a card (again only when you have additional blocker. Sarkhan is slow too. You play it to have a gradual CA engine typically. It's better than Whisperwood when you pack permission but it doesn't protect your board. You play cards like this when you need some value in the mid-late game so that you don't just 1 for 1'd out of the game as punishment for the amount of mana you play.
I think your existing list is pretty good, there are a few metagame calls for the cards to test but most of them won't be good enough unless you have a specific need for certain interactions. Something Magma Spray or Hornet's Nest are those sort of cards but might be completely unnecessary. Although in my opinion Deflecting Palm versus exile isn't even a debate. Every random Ashcloud or Flamewake Phoenix, Hangarback, Den Protector, Bloodsoaked Champion. None of these may be a real thing right now, but they've all been more of a thing than Deflecting Palm ever has outside of that Draft to Constructed Boros player or think I'm too clever Jeskai player at the local FNM. Shaman is sometimes a "dead" draw but the payout if early is so huge it is a real consideration. Your top end is less ambitious than mine so it's less worth it definitely. Especially because it can't fuel Claws. Part of the reason I play so fat is I needed more payout to be worth playing that card for me that involved going up to 8 5 drops. That being said I guess it's a bit similar to Claws the incentive for me is basically casting creatures at a great discount and leaving up Clash of Wills.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Yeah. Ultimately, a lot of games came down to just not having enough large beaters. Walkers are sorta trash in the See the Unwritten strategies. Really, I should be trying the Atarka Abzan See the Unwritten lists but I'm a little wary of their mana.
The deck could easily support more Surrak, the Hunt Caller but I'm wary of jamming too many of him.
The more I look at it the more I like Dromoka. The fact that it isn't necessarily that hard to play is real. Christian had 4 lands to cast it off of, 4 Caryatid, and 2 Sarkhan. It really doesn't take anymore than that. I've been testing it the last day or so on my current mana (same list as my sig replace whisperwood). Which is 2 lands, 4 Caryatid + 3 Shaman, and 2 Sarkhan. My sources are definitely more conditional, but it makes cards like Gather Courage out of the board much better on their payout. It basically humiliates most red decks. Downside is it is pretty do nothing against Abzan Control. It's passable against Abzan Aggro. I do find it interesting that it sort of makes Dragonclaw redundant. I'm not sure that's in a bad way though. Having so many can't be countered threats makes it really difficult for control especially when you have your own counterspells. In basic Dromoka is the best card at holding the skies with Sarkhan to pull the long game. Shaman + Xenagos is still the safety switch if things try to go too long. I know I'm talking all in context of my list but I can't help but feel while the posted list does some good things it's only leveraging part of the card which adds quite a different element to a lot of matchups.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Deathmist Raptor
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Ashcloud Phoenix
2x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2x Surrak Dragonclaw
2x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Xenagos, the God of Revels
3x Dragonlord Atarka
4x See the Unwritten
Lands: (23)
4x Frontier Bivouac
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Epiphany
4x Yavimaya Coast
1x Shivan Reef
4x Forest
4x Mountain
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Stubborn Denial
2x Arbor Colossus
2x Arc Lightning
1x Magma Spray
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
1x Harbinger of the Hunt
1x Disperse
1x Feed the Clan
1x Mob Rule
2x Unravel the Aether
Rolled FNM but a lot of not real decks. Abzan aggro is still a joke. Control is fine assuming you sequence your stuff correctly. SB still needs a ton of work. Surrak Dragonclaw is still nuts in the current meta.
Lots of EOT Surrak into See the Unwritten all while the opponent thought it was ok to tap out.
I'd like another Xenagos, the Reveler and maybe something like Rabblemaster. Or whatever.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Boon Satyr
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Whisperwood Elemental
1 Dragonlord Atarka
Lands (24)
6 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
3 Yavimaya Coast
3 Mountain
3 Shivan Reef
3 Temple of Abandon
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Temple of Epiphany
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Reality Shift
Sorcery (3)
3 Crater's Claws
Planeswalker (3)
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Feed the Clan
2 Unravel the Æther
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Roast
2 Back to Nature
1 Destructive Revelry
Match 1: RG devo splash U 1-2
Game 1 I got a lot of my dragons out and just won the game. Game 2 I sided in my angers and stroke, siding out dorks. Opponent also sided out dorks so the angers were dead cards. I was hitting in the air with regent and SBD. Eventually a hornet queen came out and I was not able to draw claws. Game 3 was very much the same as game 2. Consecutive genesis hydras is no fun at all. Oh and windstorm from the side does an amazing job at killing dragons.
Match 2: Monored burn 2-1
Game 1 went very fast. 2 dorks were hit with searing blood and a couple swiftspears were hitting me. Game 2 I side in 3 anger, 3 feed the clan, 2 roast siding out some dorks and the big guys and a couple satyrs. T3 anger, T4 polukranos, T5 monstrous, claws for the win. Game 3 still the same but no polky in hand. Swiftspears were swinging and opponent tapped out for lightning strike and slash. EOT boon satyr, next turn shaman. Opponent was out of gas at that point and I cast feed the clan the next turn. That's pretty much it. Sadly no firecraft for that opponent.
Match 3: BG elves 2-1
Game 1 was just too fast with a collected company hitting 2 shamans. Dead before I knew what hit me. SB package same as monored. Games 2 and 3 were very explosive games. Game 2 I went T1 elf, T2 morph, T3 stormbreath. Denial on CoCo, bestow on SBD then eventually win. Game 3 I let opponent build up board state, anger, polky, keranos, win.
Match 4: Monored burn 2-0
Firecraft, dragon fodder, denizen, the hurts are all present. Opponent did not manage to bring out swiftspear so when I got polky out, the board has been pretty much stabilized. Games 2 and 3 went pretty much the same with T3 anger, polky, feed the clan.
The funky parts are atarka, whisperwood and keranos. I only have 2 SBD and I'm looking for additional top ends. Luckily I have both whisperwood and keranos so I just threw them in there. Kiora is also a questionable inclusion as xenagos is always better. I will switch to xenagos maybe by next week, though kiora did serve well with her -1 ability (+1 was activated just to keep her alive).
The SB does contain a lot of enchantment/artifact hate since there were a lot of guys at the LGS running UG turbofog tutelage and those decks are a real pain. However, once the tutelage is taken out, it's gonna get a lot better. But I did not get matched with any of them so a large part of my SB was practically useless all night.
RBW Mardu Reveler
Commander:
UW Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper - One-Punch Griffin || UR Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain - Historic Tribal Superfriends
GR Omnath, Locus of Rage - Turbo Lands Spellslinger || WURBG Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Living Death Reanimator
BGonti, Lord of Luxury - Gonti's Midnight Party
Under Construction:
WGU Rubinia Soulsinger - Enchantress || RBGU Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Cascading Artifacts
RU Jhoira of the Ghitu - Dragonstorm Eldrazi || RU Mizzix of the Izmagnus - Spellslinger
WURBG The Ur-Dragon - Cloning for the Win || WGU Roon of the Hidden Realm - Creature Toolbox
RBGU Vial Smasher the Fierce Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix - Lots'a Combos || BW Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Reanimator Combo
WBGU Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Modified Precon
BUR Nekusar, the Mindrazer || U Arcanis the Omnipotent - Artifact "Storm"