I think Sagu Mauler will be key against those decks as a threat that cant be taken out with anything other than Elspeth and End Hostilities and Mass Calcify in those lists. I think it is currently a bit undervalued and will start becoming a key card in green based decks looking to play around spot removal.
Prognostic Sphinx will also be a strong contender for a good beatdown card because it is also difficult to remove for either deck and can easily stop mantis riders.
I think running a few more counterspells than I used to will be useful as well. A lot of the big cards to worry about can be dealt with by playing Disdainful Stroke ( Plansewalkers, Rhino, Roc, utter end), and we have Dissolve for the stuff disdainful stroke cant get if we need it.
I like Kiora, the crashing wave in the Abzan matchup to be able to basically stop the biggest thing they have for a while, and if you can defend her, they need to use resources to deal with her instead of your creatures. I think Jeskai has enough threats that it would be hard for Kiora to feel worthwhile though. I probably keep her main board still though.
I like reclamation sage for getting rid of important cards such as Banishing Lights, Coursers, and in some Abzan decks Whip.
And finally the card I really like in midrange mirror matches, Icy Blast. If youre running enough creatures that will reliably trigger the ferocious trigger, you basically get at least 1 free swing with no blockers and the next turn you will only have to deal with what they just played. Really good for finishing off a game in stalled boards which are common with the Abzan matchups. Also holds off a bunch of guys in jeskai, preventing the attacks and convoke mana for stoke the flames.
I think Sagu Mauler will be key against those decks as a threat that cant be taken out with anything other than Elspeth and End Hostilities and Mass Calcify in those lists. I think it is currently a bit undervalued and will start becoming a key card in green based decks looking to play around spot removal.
Prognostic Sphinx will also be a strong contender for a good beatdown card because it is also difficult to remove for either deck and can easily stop mantis riders.
I think running a few more counterspells than I used to will be useful as well. A lot of the big cards to worry about can be dealt with by playing Disdainful Stroke ( Plansewalkers, Rhino, Roc, utter end), and we have Dissolve for the stuff disdainful stroke cant get if we need it.
I like Kiora, the crashing wave in the Abzan matchup to be able to basically stop the biggest thing they have for a while, and if you can defend her, they need to use resources to deal with her instead of your creatures. I think Jeskai has enough threats that it would be hard for Kiora to feel worthwhile though. I probably keep her main board still though.
I like reclamation sage for getting rid of important cards such as Banishing Lights, Coursers, Gods, and in some Abzan decks Whip.
And finally the card I really like in midrange mirror matches, Icy Blast. If youre running enough creatures that will reliably trigger the ferocious trigger, you basically get at least 1 free swing with no blockers and the next turn you will only have to deal with what they just played. Really good for finishing off a game in stalled boards which are common with the Abzan matchups. Also holds off a bunch of guys in jeskai, preventing the attacks and convoke mana for stoke the flames.
i agree with everything. (but reclamation sage doesn´t kill gods)
Also i think we need threats in the lower end of the curve that make them use their removal fast and at sorcery speed;
- chasm skulker (chasm skulker on second turns looks promising)
- 2/2 khans green creature with deathtouch , bye sylvan cariatid.
- Reclamation sage
- etc... need help on the list.
I think Sagu Mauler will be key against those decks as a threat that cant be taken out with anything other than Elspeth and End Hostilities and Mass Calcify in those lists. I think it is currently a bit undervalued and will start becoming a key card in green based decks looking to play around spot removal.
Prognostic Sphinx will also be a strong contender for a good beatdown card because it is also difficult to remove for either deck and can easily stop mantis riders.
I think running a few more counterspells than I used to will be useful as well. A lot of the big cards to worry about can be dealt with by playing Disdainful Stroke ( Plansewalkers, Rhino, Roc, utter end), and we have Dissolve for the stuff disdainful stroke cant get if we need it.
I like Kiora, the crashing wave in the Abzan matchup to be able to basically stop the biggest thing they have for a while, and if you can defend her, they need to use resources to deal with her instead of your creatures. I think Jeskai has enough threats that it would be hard for Kiora to feel worthwhile though. I probably keep her main board still though.
I like reclamation sage for getting rid of important cards such as Banishing Lights, Coursers, Gods, and in some Abzan decks Whip.
And finally the card I really like in midrange mirror matches, Icy Blast. If youre running enough creatures that will reliably trigger the ferocious trigger, you basically get at least 1 free swing with no blockers and the next turn you will only have to deal with what they just played. Really good for finishing off a game in stalled boards which are common with the Abzan matchups. Also holds off a bunch of guys in jeskai, preventing the attacks and convoke mana for stoke the flames.
i agree with everything. (but reclamation sage doesn´t kill gods)
Also i think we need threats in the lower end of the curve that make them use their removal fast and at sorcery speed;
- chasm skulker (chasm skulker on second turns looks promising)
- 2/2 khans green creature with deathtouch , bye sylvan cariatid.
- Reclamation sage
- etc... need help on the list.
That's exactly why I've been pushing Icefeather Aven. It's a 2/2 flyer for 2 with a morph mode that works great in late game. A 2/2 flyer is a threat to deal with, especially when it comes down turn 2. Also especially when you run Boon Saytr in your list.
I've gutted and shifted my deck to Sultai Midrange, but before I did, I was contemplating running a single Archetype of Endurance. Thought I'd offer that up to you guys.
Yeah I agree on the Icefeather Aven! I ended up siding horizon chimeras out for the Avens and I think they were a lot better for an early agressive threat. Losing the 1 power from Chimera was no big deal after being able to start swinging at least a turn earlier. And since I'm splashing white for Ajani, Mentor of Heroes the synergy with Ajani's +1 for counters is really good if the opponent has a hard time with fliers.
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Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Epic match with GR midrange.
Stalled board, he plays Stormbreath. I play and monstrous Colossus. Collosus attacks, he chords Hornet nest getting 9 bees. I cast Genesis Hydra for 16, fetching Polukranos. He Setessan Tactics trading 6 hornets for all my guys. I play Hornet Queen. He casts Polukranos and Xenagos. Next turn he attacks and monsterizes. In response I Jest and block. All honrets die and Polukranos too. Then Xenagos and Chandra take over. The board fills with stuff, and I couldn't keep pace. He gets a second Poukranos and that's game.
Playing Abzan midrange, I got owned. anything I played died. Sphinxes got tapped down by Hero's Downfall. Then walkers took over. Cards stripped by Liliana and Thoughtseize. Creatures powered up by Ajani and Sorin. Then Elspeth to wipe any big board presence and bile blight for the hornets.
It's time to retool. I think an answer is counterspells and hexproof. This might be extreme, but I'm going to try only playing hexproof and indestructible guys. Caryatid and Bassara Tower Archer, Kruphix, Mauler, etc. See the Unwritten as a power play. Aspect of Hydra, Boon Satyr to powerup. Polukranos because it's a great followup to a board full of unkillable things. Finally stubborn denial, disdain, dissolve.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
It's time to retool. I think an answer is counterspells and hexproof. This might be extreme, but I'm going to try only playing hexproof and indestructible guys. Caryatid and Bassara Tower Archer, Kruphix, Mauler, etc. See the Unwritten as a power play. Aspect of Hydra, Boon Satyr to powerup. Polukranos because it's a great followup to a board full of unkillable things. Finally stubborn denial, disdain, dissolve.
been thinking the same. The problem is that bassara tower archer doesn´t do anything on it´s own. So maybe, and thinking on the curve, ghostfire blade may be a good tool.
Epic match with GR midrange.
Stalled board, he plays Stormbreath. I play and monstrous Colossus. Collosus attacks, he chords Hornet nest getting 9 bees. I cast Genesis Hydra for 16, fetching Polukranos. He Setessan Tactics trading 6 hornets for all my guys. I play Hornet Queen. He casts Polukranos and Xenagos. Next turn he attacks and monsterizes. In response I Jest and block. All honrets die and Polukranos too. Then Xenagos and Chandra take over. The board fills with stuff, and I couldn't keep pace. He gets a second Poukranos and that's game.
Playing Abzan midrange, I got owned. anything I played died. Sphinxes got tapped down by Hero's Downfall. Then walkers took over. Cards stripped by Liliana and Thoughtseize. Creatures powered up by Ajani and Sorin. Then Elspeth to wipe any big board presence and bile blight for the hornets.
It's time to retool. I think an answer is counterspells and hexproof. This might be extreme, but I'm going to try only playing hexproof and indestructible guys. Caryatid and Bassara Tower Archer, Kruphix, Mauler, etc. See the Unwritten as a power play. Aspect of Hydra, Boon Satyr to powerup. Polukranos because it's a great followup to a board full of unkillable things. Finally stubborn denial, disdain, dissolve.
Going with the hexproof guys and the countermagic is too much. You are swinging too far into just trying to beat their game instead of focusing on your own. I run two Quicklings main board exactly for playing against all the Hero's Downfall and the like. It nullifies their card, and keeps some tempo in the process. I also run two Negate in main board for the same kind of reason, to be able to counter the Anger Of The Gods or End Hostilities. With 3 Prophet of Kruphix main deck, it should be pretty easy to keep mana open on their turn when they would blow you out.
Maybe my scheme is too much, but Two Each is far too little. You will find half your games you have neither. Also the counters arent mainly to protect us, but to stop Rhino, Sorin, Roc, etc from landing. These spells are never dead as they either protect or stop.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I agree with the Reverend that focusing solely on those things is a little far but I agree that we need to protect ourselves from the opposing threats primarily with our counters. I am thinking about getting back into standard and this is the list I would run:
I'm looking for the right mix of threats and control. With 3 Kiora's I definitely want to be able to protect her so my build leans a little more controlling. I am thinking about removing the Followers for maybe another Mauler and the fourth Dissolve but don't want to leave myself without enough plays early game.
FWIW, I playtested Dig (6 games) in my build last night and found it to be a horrible fit because I wasn't filling up my graveyard with enough spells.
The only exception to this was when my opponent was drawing a lot of removal, then it was great as a way to regain strategic card advantage.
I'm currently maindecking Jace's Ingenuity and holding Dig in the SB for the heavy removal matchups.
i offer myself to play in cockatrice against any UG list that you guys want to try out. I really want to improve the UG. It would be a good idea to start against abzan.
As I'm looking at it, you are right that 2 Quickling and 2 Negate majn isn't enough against Abzan. In my build, I'm also running 3 Polymorphist's Jest which will frankly blow out Roc and Rhino.
I can't say this enough, Jest is just the best right now. The meta is this ATM:
1) Spot removal
2) Play "bigger" threat
3) Swing to win
Jest fits perfect in this meta, cause it essentially counters 2 and 3. It makes their "better" play worse than what you have on the board, and at instant speed, it's a blow out to trade favorably. Number 1 here is easy to deal with, just fill your deck with more threats than they have removal. They only run 4 Hero's Downfall, and you should have far many more threats than that.
Sorin is a bit of a threat, but playing 4+ flyers main, he is much less of a problem. It means he down ticks, which makes him more vulnerable.
13 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abzan Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
And Elspeth, and more removal in board. Expect a pair of Rocs to run interference as Sorin upticks.
My latest thought is to beat them at their game, running full tempo with walkers and Mauler as wincons, and just slow them down with flash, counters and ETB tricks.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
You need to consistently be able to drop threats while still having control options available. Maybe morphs are the way to go so you can drop cards and leave that Disdainful Stroke/Negate mana open. If they kill the morph as you flip it, it will EOT for them (If they're not targeting a flipped Mauler), so you'll still be in control. Then run Digs or Cruise so you can use their own removal against them.
Oh, and Windstorm. All of their fliers are less tough than ours.
Windstorm would be great against Hornet Queen. I seem to have a good match up against Abzan ,I play 4 Maulers main. I think playing an aggressive list is the key . Icy Blast and Kiora, The Crashing Wave have been really good for me.
I had forgot all about Windstorm I'll be adding a couple to my sb. I'm finding that a Boon Satyr bestowed on a Sagu Mauler is fun times. Phytotitan Would would be good against End Hostilities Phytotitan is hard to get rid of. Another card I'm looking at is Hunter's Prowess played on a hexproof creature like mauler could be lights out.
otherwise, the low CC options for hexproof in UG are pretty limited, aren't they?
maybe a one-of to help turn the tide when you stick a mauler or sphinx?
That's what I was thinking 1 of in the board but I don't know if it would be better than See the Unwritten since it can help you recover from mass destruction. Another card I'm looking at is Briber's Purse .
13 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abzan Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
And Elspeth, and more removal in board. Expect a pair of Rocs to run interference as Sorin upticks.
My latest thought is to beat them at their game, running full tempo with walkers and Mauler as wincons, and just slow them down with flash, counters and ETB tricks.
I think this summarizes one of the problems we have in this thread: The quality of our competition.
I play at a pretty casual store with a lot of non-netdeck builds. I might run into a deck like this once every 2-3 months. I get the impression that you live on the other end of the spectrum and play some of the top flight decks routinely. The others here are probably in between us in terms of quality of competition. We may be talking about the same deck archetype, but we're playing against vastly different opponents.
So I have four Goblin Rabblemasters now. I wonder if they're worth slotting into a Prophet deck, because they punch above their weight class. Probably janky, and I lack the proper mana base, sadly. Maybe it would look something like:
Prognostic Sphinx will also be a strong contender for a good beatdown card because it is also difficult to remove for either deck and can easily stop mantis riders.
I think running a few more counterspells than I used to will be useful as well. A lot of the big cards to worry about can be dealt with by playing Disdainful Stroke ( Plansewalkers, Rhino, Roc, utter end), and we have Dissolve for the stuff disdainful stroke cant get if we need it.
I like Kiora, the crashing wave in the Abzan matchup to be able to basically stop the biggest thing they have for a while, and if you can defend her, they need to use resources to deal with her instead of your creatures. I think Jeskai has enough threats that it would be hard for Kiora to feel worthwhile though. I probably keep her main board still though.
I like reclamation sage for getting rid of important cards such as Banishing Lights, Coursers, and in some Abzan decks Whip.
And finally the card I really like in midrange mirror matches, Icy Blast. If youre running enough creatures that will reliably trigger the ferocious trigger, you basically get at least 1 free swing with no blockers and the next turn you will only have to deal with what they just played. Really good for finishing off a game in stalled boards which are common with the Abzan matchups. Also holds off a bunch of guys in jeskai, preventing the attacks and convoke mana for stoke the flames.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
i agree with everything. (but reclamation sage doesn´t kill gods)
Also i think we need threats in the lower end of the curve that make them use their removal fast and at sorcery speed;
- chasm skulker (chasm skulker on second turns looks promising)
- 2/2 khans green creature with deathtouch , bye sylvan cariatid.
- Reclamation sage
- etc... need help on the list.
That's exactly why I've been pushing Icefeather Aven. It's a 2/2 flyer for 2 with a morph mode that works great in late game. A 2/2 flyer is a threat to deal with, especially when it comes down turn 2. Also especially when you run Boon Saytr in your list.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Ah yeah that was me forgetting to proofread my post >.< fixed it.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Stalled board, he plays Stormbreath. I play and monstrous Colossus. Collosus attacks, he chords Hornet nest getting 9 bees. I cast Genesis Hydra for 16, fetching Polukranos. He Setessan Tactics trading 6 hornets for all my guys. I play Hornet Queen. He casts Polukranos and Xenagos. Next turn he attacks and monsterizes. In response I Jest and block. All honrets die and Polukranos too. Then Xenagos and Chandra take over. The board fills with stuff, and I couldn't keep pace. He gets a second Poukranos and that's game.
Playing Abzan midrange, I got owned. anything I played died. Sphinxes got tapped down by Hero's Downfall. Then walkers took over. Cards stripped by Liliana and Thoughtseize. Creatures powered up by Ajani and Sorin. Then Elspeth to wipe any big board presence and bile blight for the hornets.
It's time to retool. I think an answer is counterspells and hexproof. This might be extreme, but I'm going to try only playing hexproof and indestructible guys. Caryatid and Bassara Tower Archer, Kruphix, Mauler, etc. See the Unwritten as a power play. Aspect of Hydra, Boon Satyr to powerup. Polukranos because it's a great followup to a board full of unkillable things. Finally stubborn denial, disdain, dissolve.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
been thinking the same. The problem is that bassara tower archer doesn´t do anything on it´s own. So maybe, and thinking on the curve, ghostfire blade may be a good tool.
Going with the hexproof guys and the countermagic is too much. You are swinging too far into just trying to beat their game instead of focusing on your own. I run two Quicklings main board exactly for playing against all the Hero's Downfall and the like. It nullifies their card, and keeps some tempo in the process. I also run two Negate in main board for the same kind of reason, to be able to counter the Anger Of The Gods or End Hostilities. With 3 Prophet of Kruphix main deck, it should be pretty easy to keep mana open on their turn when they would blow you out.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
1x Arbor Colossus
3x Chord of Calling
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Dig Through Time
3x Dissolve
2x Elvish Mystic
6x Forest
4x Island
2x Kiora's Follower
3x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2x Negate
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Prophet of Kruphix
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Sagu Mauler
1x Soul of Ravnica
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Temple of Mystery
4x Thornwood Falls
4x Yavimaya Coast
1x AEtherspouts
2x Arbor Colossus
1x Clever Impersonator
2x Hornet Nest
1x Hornet Queen
2x Icy Blast
2x Negate
2x Plummet
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Sagu Mauler
I'm looking for the right mix of threats and control. With 3 Kiora's I definitely want to be able to protect her so my build leans a little more controlling. I am thinking about removing the Followers for maybe another Mauler and the fourth Dissolve but don't want to leave myself without enough plays early game.
Signature by DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
The only exception to this was when my opponent was drawing a lot of removal, then it was great as a way to regain strategic card advantage.
I'm currently maindecking Jace's Ingenuity and holding Dig in the SB for the heavy removal matchups.
I can't say this enough, Jest is just the best right now. The meta is this ATM:
1) Spot removal
2) Play "bigger" threat
3) Swing to win
Jest fits perfect in this meta, cause it essentially counters 2 and 3. It makes their "better" play worse than what you have on the board, and at instant speed, it's a blow out to trade favorably. Number 1 here is easy to deal with, just fill your deck with more threats than they have removal. They only run 4 Hero's Downfall, and you should have far many more threats than that.
Sorin is a bit of a threat, but playing 4+ flyers main, he is much less of a problem. It means he down ticks, which makes him more vulnerable.
My current build for reference.
Creatures (30)
2 Quickling
4 Icefeather Aven
4 Kiora's Follower
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Boon Satyr
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Arbor Colossus
3 Prophet of Kruphix
2 Sagu Mauler
2 Negate
4 Polymorphist's Jest
Lands (24)
2 Island
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Thornwood Falls
4 Yavimaya Coast
7 Forest
2 Negate
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Setessan Tactics
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Reclamation Sage
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Prognostic Sphinx
13 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abzan Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
And Elspeth, and more removal in board. Expect a pair of Rocs to run interference as Sorin upticks.
My latest thought is to beat them at their game, running full tempo with walkers and Mauler as wincons, and just slow them down with flash, counters and ETB tricks.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
You need to consistently be able to drop threats while still having control options available. Maybe morphs are the way to go so you can drop cards and leave that Disdainful Stroke/Negate mana open. If they kill the morph as you flip it, it will EOT for them (If they're not targeting a flipped Mauler), so you'll still be in control. Then run Digs or Cruise so you can use their own removal against them.
Oh, and Windstorm. All of their fliers are less tough than ours.
And Wingmate. It can take out Stormbreath and leave your Sphinx still standing.
otherwise, the low CC options for hexproof in UG are pretty limited, aren't they?
maybe a one-of to help turn the tide when you stick a mauler or sphinx?
I think this summarizes one of the problems we have in this thread: The quality of our competition.
I play at a pretty casual store with a lot of non-netdeck builds. I might run into a deck like this once every 2-3 months. I get the impression that you live on the other end of the spectrum and play some of the top flight decks routinely. The others here are probably in between us in terms of quality of competition. We may be talking about the same deck archetype, but we're playing against vastly different opponents.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Genesis Hydra
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Hornet Queen
1 Hydra Broodmaster
4 Kiora's Follower
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Prognostic Sphinx
3 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Sagu Mauler
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
2 Dig Through Time
5 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Shivan Reef
1 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast