I'm liking Thoughtseize so far, it grabs Polukranos, The World Eater and stops all kinds of problems before they become problems. On top of that with the Mardu Skullhunter you can have them without a hand pretty quick. With the abundance of one drops I never have a problem casting it and dropping a dude.
Utter End has been good as well. One time I've had it in hand and not had the mana to use it. In most cases it is a better Hero's Downfall though given the abundance of Whip of Erebos I see in my meta.
Gnarled Scarhide is definitely a card I've wavered on. It is a decent one drop, and it can be ok as a bestow, but it turns on enchantment removal which has been strangely relevant. I wouldn't mind replacing him if I could find a better warrior. He fits the overall plan of getting in quick and stomping face before they can establish a board though. Grim Haruspex does come in for long games. Honestly though when the deck works I still have a card or two in my hand when they are dead.
I really want to like Return to the Ranks but I never have more than 4 mana so I would only get two dudes. Athreos, God of Passage keeps a lot of them out of the yard since they would otherwise be taking a lot of bolts. I definitely don't mind swinging all out with him on the board unless I suspect a combat trick or an Erase. Thoughtseize helps with this though. Usually if they hold a top deck I'll snipe it over playing another dude. Also, devotion hasn't been a problem. Having Athreos as a dude swinging out is awesome the dream is real there.
Finally, Chief of the Edge ... I only have one token deck in my meta and running three Bile Blight and a Festergloom hoses the hell out of it.
Honestly though when the deck works I still have a card or two in my hand when they are dead.
Yeah this is why I feel card draw in such a deck is largely irrelevant. You want to kill them before such a thing is needed and you're mostly drawing into crap mid-late game anyway.
I really want to like Return, but I never have more than 4 mana so I would only get two dudes.
It has convoke. You could easily get more if need be. Though surprised you never have more than four mana.
Sounds good though. Perhaps I need to re-consider Thoughtseize. I was currently considering a playset of Bile Blight and Suspension Field, but maybe I should make room for a playset of Thoughtseize. Just sold my own playset a few weeks ago though :p.
I don't usually have untapped guys to convoke, I swing all out often. Mid-late I could see it has value, I might try it, but usually if the game goes that long I'm chump blocking hoping to top deck a Mogis's Marauder.
Thoughtseize is great, you can really screw up their game plan with it.
Edit: I may have been slightly exaggerating about never having more than four mana, but I never count on it. If I reliably hit five mana I'd throw in a singleton End Hostilities because if it ever goes that long I'm facing down a definite disadvantage creature wise.
Like the look of your lists. How did the matches go? Did you make use of your sideboard much?
Matches went OK. Some matches were intense. I REALLY like the variety of cards in B/W, and I'm hoping that the support for this deck is only increased as the block moves on. As far as matches go, I'm sort of drawing a blank. I remember more of the second day...were I placed 11th. lol
The main comment I have about this deck is that you HAVE to start well. If you can't hit early, this deck loses a lot of steam in the mid to late game. I'm thinking good and hard about adding 2-3 Athreos, God of Passage as he's indestructible and your opponents must think long and hard about using the removal and board wipes.
Another comment I had was about Tormented Hero. I don't like her anymore. I know she's a one drop, but she comes into play tapped and her only benefit comes from Boon of Erebos, which is always the first card I boarded out. If anything, I HAVE to play Boon of Erebos to make her any kind of playable. Gnarled Scarhide, Herald of Anafenza and Ruthless Ripper will get a good look.
Also, I'm making my removal better by adding Utter End and Hero's Downfall. Devouring Light was only good against similar aggro decks and mostly became a dead card when playing anything else (Jeskai Combo or any form of control, namely). I had a match were Prognostic Sphinx gave me fits, even though I had an active Spear of Heliod and 3 Devouring Light in hand.
FINALLY, as far as sideboard use, I boarded in Grim Haruspex and Stain the Mind to try and generate draw/remove their big cards. I never saw a single card I boarded in all weekend. lol I wish I had more to tell...there just isn't.
Edit: I may have been slightly exaggerating about never having more than four mana, but I never count on it. If I reliably hit five mana I'd throw in a singleton End Hostilities because if it ever goes that long I'm facing down a definite disadvantage creature wise.
End Hostilities huh? Never really considered it a viable card for an aggro deck - just seems fundamentally opposed to it. Though I can see where you're coming from. Still I think I'd rather concentrate on ways to win without needing such a card.
The main comment I have about this deck is that you HAVE to start well. If you can't hit early, this deck loses a lot of steam in the mid to late game. I'm thinking good and hard about adding 2-3 Athreos, God of Passage as he's indestructible and your opponents must think long and hard about using the removal and board wipes.
I think what I like about this deck on top of what you've already said is that it actually depends how you run it. Because I use more anthems my creatures can get pretty big and the mid-game isn't always so bad for me. "I see you have a 5/4 Butcher of the Horde. I also have several creatures with similar power/toughness." I could if I wanted to run more anthems and make this a namesake for the deck, as @RedGauntlet mentioned earlier. I am actually quite tempted to do this because anthems really help out against burn (i.e., puts them out of reach/force them to 2-for-1 themself).
But yeah, starting well is important regardless. It's the crux of many aggro-type decks.
Herald of Anafenza I don't think quite works in the deck. Three mana is a lot for us to create an otherwise very weak creature. Could work in an anthem heavy deck though.
Also, I'm making my removal better by adding Utter End and Hero's Downfall. Devouring Light was only good against similar aggro decks and mostly became a dead card when playing anything else (Jeskai Combo or any form of control, namely). I had a match were Prognostic Sphinx gave me fits, even though I had an active Spear of Heliod and 3 Devouring Light in hand.
I'm very much of the opinion that the only removal you really need is Bile Blight, Suspension Field and maybe Thoughtseize. At least in terms of what they do, that's all you need. They hose:
I've seen a build that runs more attrition-style, with Thoughtseize and Mardu Skullhunter hosing down your chances to stabilize, and running Timely Hordemate for excellent recursion. If you bring a skullhunter back it's value town, and suddenly Athreos, god of passage becomes much more menacing. If you bring back a Chief of the edge you're setting 7 power on the field for 4 mana, and that's if you don't have any other warriors on the field, that's sweet.
End Hostilities would be more of a reset against something like G/R monsters where they can assemble a formidable board presence quickly. Like I stated though I never count on seeing five mana. That's why I topped out with Sorin at 4. I'm really thinking about dropping one of him. I hate seeing two of him in my hand.
Despite my protestations that Herald of Anafenza doesn't work in this sort of deck I'm going to give it another go. The deck wants creatures out and he gives us an out. It's just Outlast is such a crap ability.
I also think a couple of Brimaz, King of Oreskos actually really works here. The deck has issues against burn but he helps to some degree; he also survives Anger of the Gods. He also gives us extra creatures.
I've also decided based on the playtests that the deck wants 12 one drop creatures - or something close to this number.
I'm thinking about splashing a third color for this deck as the land support and benefits from one other color could help this deck win with consistency.
You can't run 20 lands, zero acceleration and ever expect to hit your 4-drops on time. With 20 lands, you'll only be able to hit your 4th land on T4 about 44% of the time. Heck, you won't even be able to cast your 3-drops on T3 in about 4 of every 10 games you play. I don't think this deck really wants to go long anyway, so your best bet is probably to just stay extremely low to the ground. I'm betting the nut draw in this type of deck would include some combination of three 1-drops plus disruption/removal and evasion.
You can't run 20 lands, zero acceleration and ever expect to hit your 4-drops on time. With 20 lands, you'll only be able to hit your 4th land on T4 about 44% of the time. Heck, you won't even be able to cast your 3-drops on T3 in about 4 of every 10 games you play. I don't think this deck really wants to go long anyway, so your best bet is probably to just stay extremely low to the ground. I'm betting the nut draw in this type of deck would include some combination of three 1-drops plus disruption/removal and evasion.
Never really thought about playing it like that, to be honest. I think I got a bit obsessed with using Sorin, Solemn Visitor. In a way I think I can see something like that working utilising early board plays and hand disruption.
I've actually gone the Mardu route tonight. The deck list isn't stellar but hopefully it'll do alright - it is kind of experimental. To be honest I just want to use a deck that's fun, regardless of if it wins. I'm running:
The Gnarled Scarhide and War-Name Aspirant might look a little out of place but they've playtested OK in the amounts shown. Having 4 Aspirants could be bad as it always feels dirty playing it as a 2/1, but here I've been more likely to play it as a 3/2 consistently. Have considered Spiteful Returned in that slot too. Not sure if there's a lot in it. Both are useful against 0/X blockers, with the former doubling as a warrior. Course, Spiteful can be bestowed...
The only thing I'm really happy with in this deck is the mama base. It's been surprisingly consistent in my playtesting. For reference I used this guide to assemble it.
OK so, won two 2-0 and lost one 2-0. The matches were as follows:
1) Orzhov Warriors.
Although this was definitely a budget version. First game I answered his threats with noncreature spells while having a Seeker of the Way on the board. He couldn't keep up and I won by playing a few more like Chief of the Edge.
Second game I don't really remember. It was a bit of a non-event.
2) Golgari aggro/midrangey type deck.
First game I got badly mana screwed and sat the game out with two mana. He played a Reaper of the Wilds and if I had that third drop a Crackling Doom may have swung the game in my favour. I didn't and he eventually won.
Second game I made a sideboard error. Because I got mana screwed I felt I needed to ensure I had creatures/spells in hand I could use to beat him, so I sideboarded out Zurgo Helmsmasher. However I couldn't beat him quickly enough and he managed to stabilise with Courser of Kruphix and friends and, in particular, the Whip of Erebos. However despite his presence he didn't have much in the way of removal. If I had pulled Zurgo or another bigger threat, in particular Zurgo, it could have changed the game. Certainly it would have given me something to attack with.
3) Golgari/Sidisi Whip
The first game was decided by Goblin Rabblemaster. He didn't put out any decent board presence by turn 3 so I played the Rabblemaster and quickly dwindled down his life total.
Overall thought the deck played very well. I think I'll probably MB Thoughtseize, I sided it in for just about every match. I'll probably just replace the Gnarled Scarhide and War-Name Aspirant.
I'm kinda sad this thread is so slow, but with the new set I saw a card that really jumped out at me. Harsh Sustenance
This seems like it could be really good late game in several scenarios. At worst it would be something like a helix, at best it could 5+ and maybe more. This is definitely going in as an 2-3 of for testing if nothing else.
I'm kinda sad this thread is so slow, but with the new set I saw a card that really jumped out at me. Harsh Sustenance
This seems like it could be really good late game in several scenarios. At worst it would be something like a helix, at best it could 5+ and maybe more. This is definitely going in as an 2-3 of for testing if nothing else.
There's another thread created as a primer for this, so.
I've also been excited by this card and plan to run a playset in my current deck. This was based on the fact it seemed to consistently have many creatures out at a time.
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Utter End has been good as well. One time I've had it in hand and not had the mana to use it. In most cases it is a better Hero's Downfall though given the abundance of Whip of Erebos I see in my meta.
Gnarled Scarhide is definitely a card I've wavered on. It is a decent one drop, and it can be ok as a bestow, but it turns on enchantment removal which has been strangely relevant. I wouldn't mind replacing him if I could find a better warrior. He fits the overall plan of getting in quick and stomping face before they can establish a board though. Grim Haruspex does come in for long games. Honestly though when the deck works I still have a card or two in my hand when they are dead.
I really want to like Return to the Ranks but I never have more than 4 mana so I would only get two dudes. Athreos, God of Passage keeps a lot of them out of the yard since they would otherwise be taking a lot of bolts. I definitely don't mind swinging all out with him on the board unless I suspect a combat trick or an Erase. Thoughtseize helps with this though. Usually if they hold a top deck I'll snipe it over playing another dude. Also, devotion hasn't been a problem. Having Athreos as a dude swinging out is awesome the dream is real there.
Finally, Chief of the Edge ... I only have one token deck in my meta and running three Bile Blight and a Festergloom hoses the hell out of it.
Yeah this is why I feel card draw in such a deck is largely irrelevant. You want to kill them before such a thing is needed and you're mostly drawing into crap mid-late game anyway.
It has convoke. You could easily get more if need be. Though surprised you never have more than four mana.
Sounds good though. Perhaps I need to re-consider Thoughtseize. I was currently considering a playset of Bile Blight and Suspension Field, but maybe I should make room for a playset of Thoughtseize. Just sold my own playset a few weeks ago though :p.
Thoughtseize is great, you can really screw up their game plan with it.
Edit: I may have been slightly exaggerating about never having more than four mana, but I never count on it. If I reliably hit five mana I'd throw in a singleton End Hostilities because if it ever goes that long I'm facing down a definite disadvantage creature wise.
Matches went OK. Some matches were intense. I REALLY like the variety of cards in B/W, and I'm hoping that the support for this deck is only increased as the block moves on. As far as matches go, I'm sort of drawing a blank. I remember more of the second day...were I placed 11th. lol
The main comment I have about this deck is that you HAVE to start well. If you can't hit early, this deck loses a lot of steam in the mid to late game. I'm thinking good and hard about adding 2-3 Athreos, God of Passage as he's indestructible and your opponents must think long and hard about using the removal and board wipes.
Another comment I had was about Tormented Hero. I don't like her anymore. I know she's a one drop, but she comes into play tapped and her only benefit comes from Boon of Erebos, which is always the first card I boarded out. If anything, I HAVE to play Boon of Erebos to make her any kind of playable. Gnarled Scarhide, Herald of Anafenza and Ruthless Ripper will get a good look.
Also, I'm making my removal better by adding Utter End and Hero's Downfall. Devouring Light was only good against similar aggro decks and mostly became a dead card when playing anything else (Jeskai Combo or any form of control, namely). I had a match were Prognostic Sphinx gave me fits, even though I had an active Spear of Heliod and 3 Devouring Light in hand.
FINALLY, as far as sideboard use, I boarded in Grim Haruspex and Stain the Mind to try and generate draw/remove their big cards. I never saw a single card I boarded in all weekend. lol I wish I had more to tell...there just isn't.
End Hostilities huh? Never really considered it a viable card for an aggro deck - just seems fundamentally opposed to it. Though I can see where you're coming from. Still I think I'd rather concentrate on ways to win without needing such a card.
I think what I like about this deck on top of what you've already said is that it actually depends how you run it. Because I use more anthems my creatures can get pretty big and the mid-game isn't always so bad for me. "I see you have a 5/4 Butcher of the Horde. I also have several creatures with similar power/toughness." I could if I wanted to run more anthems and make this a namesake for the deck, as @RedGauntlet mentioned earlier. I am actually quite tempted to do this because anthems really help out against burn (i.e., puts them out of reach/force them to 2-for-1 themself).
But yeah, starting well is important regardless. It's the crux of many aggro-type decks.
Herald of Anafenza I don't think quite works in the deck. Three mana is a lot for us to create an otherwise very weak creature. Could work in an anthem heavy deck though.
I'm very much of the opinion that the only removal you really need is Bile Blight, Suspension Field and maybe Thoughtseize. At least in terms of what they do, that's all you need. They hose:
1) Token decks
2) Fatties
3) Board wipes
Although unfortunately none of them do more than one of these things, but then neither does Hero's Downfall or Devouring Light et al which all cost more to cast. Well, Thoughtseize can help dismantle Jeskai Ascendancy as well.
I've given Timely Hordemate some thought. He definitely bears testing.
2 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Master of the Feast
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Tormented Hero
2 Herald of Anafenza
2 Soldier of the Pantheon
2 Ajani Steadfast
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Instants:
2 Bile Blight
Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
Enchantments:
2 Spear of Heliod
2 Suspension Field
Land:
5 Swamp
4 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Plains
2 Temple of Silence
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Despite my protestations that Herald of Anafenza doesn't work in this sort of deck I'm going to give it another go. The deck wants creatures out and he gives us an out. It's just Outlast is such a crap ability.
I also think a couple of Brimaz, King of Oreskos actually really works here. The deck has issues against burn but he helps to some degree; he also survives Anger of the Gods. He also gives us extra creatures.
I've also decided based on the playtests that the deck wants 12 one drop creatures - or something close to this number.
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Skullhunter
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Seeker of the Way
3 Sightless Brawler
2 Cavalry Pegasus
2 Master of the Feast
2 Timely Hordemate
3 Banishing Light
3 Spear of Heliod
2 Return to the Ranks
2 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Silence
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
3 Plains
Tormented Hero has been replaced by Mardu Skullhunter. Also added a 3rd Spear of Heliod. I had matches where I didn't seem to draw one. Also trying out 2 Timely Hordemate, seems pretty good mid to late game.
I will report back!
I'm thinking about splashing a third color for this deck as the land support and benefits from one other color could help this deck win with consistency.
The colors under consideration:
Red for a Mardu theme:
With Nomad Outpost and Mana Confluence the land base will be easy to fix. Red gives us access to: Monastery Swiftspear, Mardu Charm, Mardu Ascendancy, Chained to the Rocks, Magma Spray, Rouse the Mob, Deflecting Palm, Fall of the Hammer, Jeering Instigator, Tymaret, the Murder King Lightning Strike, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magma Jet, Stoke the Flames, etc.
Green for a Abzan theme:
With Sandsteppe Citadel and again Mana Confluence the land base is easily fixed. Green gives us access to: Fleecemane Lion, Feed the Clan, Heir of the Wilds, Kin-Tree Invocation, Rakshasa Deathdealer, Abzan Charm, Abzan Ascendancy & Anafenza, the Foremost.
Thoughts? Comments? Other Card suggestions?
Never really thought about playing it like that, to be honest. I think I got a bit obsessed with using Sorin, Solemn Visitor. In a way I think I can see something like that working utilising early board plays and hand disruption.
I've actually gone the Mardu route tonight. The deck list isn't stellar but hopefully it'll do alright - it is kind of experimental. To be honest I just want to use a deck that's fun, regardless of if it wins. I'm running:
3 Butcher of the Horde
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Tormented Hero
2 Gnarled Scarhide
2 Herald of Torment
2 Zurgo Helmsmasher
4 Seeker of the Way
2 War-Name Aspirant
Spells:
2 Boon of Erebos
4 Crackling Doom
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Mana Confluence
1 Mountain
4 Nomad Outpost
2 Plains
4 Swamp
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Triumph
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Hushwing Gryff
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Read The Bones
4 Thoughtseize
Edit: Sideboard.
The Gnarled Scarhide and War-Name Aspirant might look a little out of place but they've playtested OK in the amounts shown. Having 4 Aspirants could be bad as it always feels dirty playing it as a 2/1, but here I've been more likely to play it as a 3/2 consistently. Have considered Spiteful Returned in that slot too. Not sure if there's a lot in it. Both are useful against 0/X blockers, with the former doubling as a warrior. Course, Spiteful can be bestowed...
The only thing I'm really happy with in this deck is the mama base. It's been surprisingly consistent in my playtesting. For reference I used this guide to assemble it.
I'll let you know how I get on.
1) Orzhov Warriors.
Although this was definitely a budget version. First game I answered his threats with noncreature spells while having a Seeker of the Way on the board. He couldn't keep up and I won by playing a few more like Chief of the Edge.
Second game I don't really remember. It was a bit of a non-event.
2) Golgari aggro/midrangey type deck.
First game I got badly mana screwed and sat the game out with two mana. He played a Reaper of the Wilds and if I had that third drop a Crackling Doom may have swung the game in my favour. I didn't and he eventually won.
Second game I made a sideboard error. Because I got mana screwed I felt I needed to ensure I had creatures/spells in hand I could use to beat him, so I sideboarded out Zurgo Helmsmasher. However I couldn't beat him quickly enough and he managed to stabilise with Courser of Kruphix and friends and, in particular, the Whip of Erebos. However despite his presence he didn't have much in the way of removal. If I had pulled Zurgo or another bigger threat, in particular Zurgo, it could have changed the game. Certainly it would have given me something to attack with.
3) Golgari/Sidisi Whip
The first game was decided by Goblin Rabblemaster. He didn't put out any decent board presence by turn 3 so I played the Rabblemaster and quickly dwindled down his life total.
The second game also saw Goblin Rabblemaster however he managed to stabilise a little better and ended up using a Nyx Weaver to pull a Whip of Erebos back into his hand while he had a Nighthowler on the battle field. However Butcher of the Horde, Goblin Rabblemaster and a bestowed Herald of Torment on a Tormented Hero won the day, especially as I Thoughtseize'd his removal and Whip earlier on.
Overall thought the deck played very well. I think I'll probably MB Thoughtseize, I sided it in for just about every match. I'll probably just replace the Gnarled Scarhide and War-Name Aspirant.
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Seeker of the Way
3 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Sightless Brawler
2 Master of the Feast
4 Thoughtseize
4 Boon of Erebos
3 Murderous Cut
2 Spear of Heliod
1 Return to the Ranks
Land
4 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Silence
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mardu Ascendancy
4 Crackling Doom
4 Stoke the Flames
Land 21
4 Mana Confluence
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Caves of Koilos
2 Nomad Outpost
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Plains
Discussing a very similar idea here - http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/580219-mardu-aggro-revamped
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Tormented Hero
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Seeker of the Way
3 Sightless Brawler
2 Master of the Feast
1 Cavalry Pegasus
Support
4 Banishing Light
4 Thoughtseize
4 Boon of Erebos
3 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Spear of Heliod
1 Return to the Ranks
4 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Silence
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Return to the Ranks
2 End Hostilities
2 Cavalry Pegasus
3 Murderous Cut
3 Bile Blight
4 Suspension Field
This seems like it could be really good late game in several scenarios. At worst it would be something like a helix, at best it could 5+ and maybe more. This is definitely going in as an 2-3 of for testing if nothing else.
There's another thread created as a primer for this, so.
I've also been excited by this card and plan to run a playset in my current deck. This was based on the fact it seemed to consistently have many creatures out at a time.