Hi. You guys probably already saw, but there was a 21 points or better list at the protour. It seems pretty strong and shares a lot with the lists posted in the thread. I am not an Esper player (I have an Abzan deck). However, now that Abzan will be in the rise, Esper should be well positioned in the meta. What do you guys think ? As an Abzan player I sometimes have trouble vs this type of control deck and so was thinking of building it =)
What matchups should I be aware of ? I am guessing rabble red..but those do not seem that common in MTGO. Anything else?
Also, regarding the red splash someone suggested. Has it worked out? It seems like an interesting idea. A small but consistent splash would open the way for Mardu charm or crackling doom (even Rabblemaster from the SB for the control mirror!) which are awesome!
I was playing on cockatrice the other day and had several a dan players scoop to ashiok. So far I've had the most trouble with UR artifact/affinity type decks. Rabble is pretty tough, but if you land a wipe it's not too bad once you stabilize. Post board drown in sorrow is rough for them.
I've been testing this esper list of mine by a good amount on cockatrice and I really like it against the aggressive decks and then you have a sideboard to have a pretty good shot against midrange and also other control decks. I'd definitely would run it at a big event like an scg open if I had access to the cards.
Also, I would like to note that I normally like divination over font of fortunes but with 12 scry lands that come into play tapped I like on turn 3 that you can just play font of fortunes and then play scry land it's been working out well.
I also have been liking despise in the maindeck over thoughtseize like against a deck like jeskai wins I've taken their mantis rider or rabblemaster which has been pretty effective for me since then you also have nyx fleece ram and resolute archangel to off set their burn. I have also been playing against a lot of aggro decks lately so I like having three last breaths in the board.
You also probably are wondering why I don't run ashiok it's because this deck has plenty of other things to do on turn 3 and beyond. I just like playing a a discard spell and using the mana left over to leave mana up for bile blight or just play font of fortunes. Besides black has plenty of other powerful cards to run besides ashiok like utter end, hero's downfall and thoughtseize. The one perilous vault and the third last breath are the two flexible slots in the sideboard, so they can be anything you want if you choose to play this list but if not that's also fine I don't force people to trying my lists anyway but feel free to do so as the list has been working out for me.
Oh and I also suppose the pearl lake ancient is also another flexible slot in the sideboard since it goes with perilous vault as well. So yeah the flexible slots can be anything that makes sense for metagaming.
Well I suppose you could run up to three ashioks in the sideboard for my list(using that as an example). I haven't really been much of a fan of ashiok in testing but I definitely understand the people that do play him.
Hey guys looking at playing an Esper Control deck tomorrow at FNM and possibly for Game Day. However, I am tryingto figure out what best cards are used to combat aggro decks and Jeskai wins. For aggro, Last Breath and Drown in Sorrow seem fantastic, however do we need both? Right now between the main and side I have 4 of each, and I think that's a little overkill, especially since I also have Rams in the deck. I'm just not sure which is better.
In terms of combating Jeskai Wins, I have found a lot of good results in playing Stubborn Denial when I played Grixis. Because Jeskai is all about using mana efficiently as tempo-minded as possible, they will often tap out to cast burn spells or will want to cast two spells consecutively, and this card lets us mess up their plans in that regard for a very cheap mana cost. Plus, it turns on with Archangel out, which is a serendipitous bonus. However, I don't think this card is that great in ANY other matchup, except maybe the mirror (but probably not). I'm not sure if it's worth packing this just to combat Jeskai wins or if just playing Negate is better. What kind of luck have you guys found versus Jeskai?
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Hey guys looking at playing an Esper Control deck tomorrow at FNM and possibly for Game Day. However, I am tryingto figure out what best cards are used to combat aggro decks and Jeskai wins. For aggro, Last Breath and Drown in Sorrow seem fantastic, however do we need both? Right now between the main and side I have 4 of each, and I think that's a little overkill, especially since I also have Rams in the deck. I'm just not sure which is better.
In terms of combating Jeskai Wins, I have found a lot of good results in playing Stubborn Denial when I played Grixis. Because Jeskai is all about using mana efficiently as tempo-minded as possible, they will often tap out to cast burn spells or will want to cast two spells consecutively, and this card lets us mess up their plans in that regard for a very cheap mana cost. Plus, it turns on with Archangel out, which is a serendipitous bonus. However, I don't think this card is that great in ANY other matchup, except maybe the mirror (but probably not). I'm not sure if it's worth packing this just to combat Jeskai wins or if just playing Negate is better. What kind of luck have you guys found versus Jeskai?
3 Rams in the main, 3 Ashioks in the main, and side in 2 Bile Blights and another Archangel... pray to see your counters and have a turn 3 Ashiok..
I guess I understand why Ashiok is good vs Jeskai but at the same time I don't understand why he is the end all be all. There is a very good chance he will whiff against their deck and it doesn't matter if you exile their burn spells in the same reason milling people isn't really a way to stop them from pulling good cards - it's all chance. If anything, I would imagine they'll just ignore Ashiok and concentrate on just burning you out. It's not out of the question to have them burn us out in 5-6 turns, and if we waste a turn playing Ashiok, that's one less turn to play actual removal/counterspells, and the first few turns against their decks seem crucial. I'm not saying he's bad, but is that really the best option we have? It seems kind of flimsy.
edit: I should say, I understand that there are other good cards against them like Ram and Bile Blight, etc, but a lot of people seem to be putting stock specifically into Ashiok as a way to combat Jeskai very favorably.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
If we run MB rams, stain the mind could come down a little earlier. Stain seems good but at the same time wouldn't we rather just counter the spell they do grab and attempt to play? Stain seems better in creature based strategies that get hosed by 1 or 2 cards (ie. mono black's bane is drown in sorrow). I think T5 is too slow personally.
I took it to a local qualifer and went 1-3 drop. I split all my other matches. I've managed to do well vs the meta decks. Abzan is surprisingly a good matchup and i feel i have the advantage. The very fast aggro decks can be a problem
Also, thoughts on 3x lilliana and 1 elspeth over 2 and 2? My thinking is that on turn 5/6, i don't want to draw an elspeth. Not that i WANT to draw lilliana, but I'd rather draw lilly than elspeth on turn 5. And if i really want elspeth, i can tutor for her
any suggestions for my list? I've tried brimaz a few times but double white isn't consistent enough on turn 3 for me to like it.
also, would it be possible and worth while to splash green for abzan and sultai charms?
I guess I understand why Ashiok is good vs Jeskai but at the same time I don't understand why he is the end all be all. There is a very good chance he will whiff against their deck and it doesn't matter if you exile their burn spells in the same reason milling people isn't really a way to stop them from pulling good cards - it's all chance. If anything, I would imagine they'll just ignore Ashiok and concentrate on just burning you out. It's not out of the question to have them burn us out in 5-6 turns, and if we waste a turn playing Ashiok, that's one less turn to play actual removal/counterspells, and the first few turns against their decks seem crucial. I'm not saying he's bad, but is that really the best option we have? It seems kind of flimsy.
edit: I should say, I understand that there are other good cards against them like Ram and Bile Blight, etc, but a lot of people seem to be putting stock specifically into Ashiok as a way to combat Jeskai very favorably.
Jeskai doesn't run many creatures so it's best to tap out as soon as you can for Ashiok and save your removal for their riders after. They have more burn than your counters, their burn is cheaper than your counters so sitting on a counter while they build up enough mana to shoot 2-3 burn spells over the course of 1 turn isn't efficient use of your mana. The waiting game is not in your favour against this deck. Ashiok has high loyalty so he often will eat 2 burn spells which is about 6-8 damage to your face. If they don't kill Ashiok, he exiles 3 cards a turn compared to their draw 1 which is still chance but odds are in your favour you're going to take something nasty. Back this up with life gain and some counters and with a good draw and some luck, I think it's the best way to combat the deck. Ashiok is probably your best threat as it comes out early and does permanent damage to their deck while providing a distraction for your life total. Exiling over 3 burn spells and even the odd creature is no joke. As long as you can keep your life total healthy through life gain, Ashiok is one of your better threats.
I really like your idea of Stubborn Denial. Seems like some high level counter picking Jeskai with their tempo style.
I guess I understand why Ashiok is good vs Jeskai but at the same time I don't understand why he is the end all be all. There is a very good chance he will whiff against their deck and it doesn't matter if you exile their burn spells in the same reason milling people isn't really a way to stop them from pulling good cards - it's all chance. If anything, I would imagine they'll just ignore Ashiok and concentrate on just burning you out. It's not out of the question to have them burn us out in 5-6 turns, and if we waste a turn playing Ashiok, that's one less turn to play actual removal/counterspells, and the first few turns against their decks seem crucial. I'm not saying he's bad, but is that really the best option we have? It seems kind of flimsy.
edit: I should say, I understand that there are other good cards against them like Ram and Bile Blight, etc, but a lot of people seem to be putting stock specifically into Ashiok as a way to combat Jeskai very favorably.
Jeskai doesn't run many creatures so it's best to tap out as soon as you can for Ashiok and save your removal for their riders after. They have more burn than your counters, their burn is cheaper than your counters so sitting on a counter while they build up enough mana to shoot 2-3 burn spells over the course of 1 turn isn't efficient use of your mana. The waiting game is not in your favour against this deck. Ashiok has high loyalty so he often will eat 2 burn spells which is about 6-8 damage to your face. If they don't kill Ashiok, he exiles 3 cards a turn compared to their draw 1 which is still chance but odds are in your favour you're going to take something nasty. Back this up with life gain and some counters and with a good draw and some luck, I think it's the best way to combat the deck. Ashiok is probably your best threat as it comes out early and does permanent damage to their deck while providing a distraction for your life total. Exiling over 3 burn spells and even the odd creature is no joke. As long as you can keep your life total healthy through life gain, Ashiok is one of your better threats.
I really like your idea of Stubborn Denial. Seems like some high level counter picking Jeskai with their tempo style.
Okay that actually does make a lot of sense. I could see how Ashiok becomes this very "damned if you do, damned if you don't" card for them to try and deal with. So since that matchup is so bad for us, should we be running 4-of Ashiok between the main and sideboard? (S)he also seems very good against the midrangey decks that play Siege Rhino and Courser, so I feel like it may be worthwhile to have as many copies as possible, but maybe that's not right.
edit: By the way has anyone tried Kill Shot in the main or sideboard? I really like the card for how easy it is to cast, the fact that it kills an attacking creature (which honestly are the only creatures we really care about), and is non conditional nature unlike Reprisal, Last Breath, etc. Obviously I'm not saying we should replace Hero's Downfall with it, but I just was wondering if anyone had messed with it yet.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Stormbreath can definitely be a weak spot, but we have Hero's Downfall and counterspells to deal with it. Really i don't use white for any removal aside from End Hostilities, which obviously is unaffected.
Note: I was missing a Dig Through Time ( I was expecting to run three) so I replaced it with an extra Jace's Ingenuity.
Overall the deck performed very well, and I was very pleased with the results even if my record doesn't seem fantastic. I'll give some brief notes on matches.
Game 1: 2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
This match is our toughest, so i was really worried about it. And game one I got burned out really early, too much pressure being put on me. It was pretty easy for him. i think the only card I cast was a Hero's Downfall and a Dissolve. Game two I landed an early Nyx Fleece Ram followed by and Ashiok, both which caused him to really struggle with burning me out. Ashiok did a lot of work here, grabbing me a Keranos, which went on to get me enough card advantage to land a Liliana and Elspeth, stabilizing at around 5 life. Game three I Despise'd a Keranos early and landed a Ram, which he had to Stoke to kill. I landed an Elspeth he couldn't deal with and he tried to burn me out, getting me to 2 life. However, an Elspeth ultimate won me the game.
Game 2: 1-1-1 vs Abzan Midrange
The first game was pretty cut and dry - he played a bunch of threats, Monstrosity'd a Fleecemane Lion, and I wiped the board with End Hostilities, leaving just the Lion left before playing Elspeth to create chump blockers every turn. Despise was amazing in this matchup and Elspeth won it for me. Game two I got kind of screwed by my lands and wasn't able to counter a Siege Rhino on time. We had some back and forth but I didn't see enough removal and he overpowered me. Game three was tedious - I had a fair amount of removal, but he landed Ajani and was able to to get two Fleemane Lions out. I played Elspeth to create blockers and he removed it with banishing Light. Ram put up a good wall, but he busted through before I used End Hostilities to kill everything else he had and played a Resolute Archangel on time turn 3, making it impossible for him to win.
Game 3: 0-2 vs Mardu Midrange
The first game I ended up with all white black lands and three Dissolves and a Dog Through Time in my hand. I didn't even put up a fight. Game two went really long - Ashiok did really good work here and almost milled him out, but Sarkhan keep beating my face in and even after playing Resolute Archangel, he still killed me. I didn't see any removal spells, and so he ended up ultimating Sarkhan, drowning me in card advantage but winning 7 cards before milling himself.
Game 4: 2-0 vs Jeskai Tempo
this was a Jeskai Tempo variant that used Ascendancy. Not as a combo piece, but just as a way to filter through cards and pump his guys. Game one I drew plenty of removal and landed a Ram early so I was able to hold him back until Elspeth got an ultimate off. game two I landed a Ram early again, but he got two Ascendancies out, and I was stuck looking at an awkward Bile Blight after he used Feat of Resistance on his Mantis Rider to stop a Hero's Downfall. However, I used back to back Dig Through Times to get two more Rams out, doing a good job at mitigating my life loss. Eventually he ran out of spells and I was able to run out a Liliana, stopping him from getting too many cards, and landed an Elspeth shortly after. A well timed Stubborn Denial helped me avoid a Stoke the Flames, and i was able to get Resolute Archangel out to put me out of burn range and win.
Overall, the deck works great,a nd I had a really good time with it. It felt like a deck that could attack rom different angles and always kept your opponent guessing. In fact I had multiple times when an opponent assumed I had a counterspell and would just flat out not play a threat out of fear.
A couple notes:
- Last Breath seemed useless. Bile Blight is harder to cast, but did way more work, and needing all these cards against Aggro seems like overkill. I'm going to cut them for probably two Reprisals or a Reprisal and a Negate.
- End Hostilities wasn't the best card int he deck, but did serious work against Abzan and even the Jeskai decks once or twice. It's a really solid card, but not spectacular. I'm not sure if I need the fourth in the side, but I'll keep trying it.
- Erase was amazing. I got rid of a lot of banishing Lights with it, and keeping one mana up is very easy and deceptive in our deck. This is the same reason Stubborn Denial did pretty well too - keeping one mana up is usually incredibly easy with out deck. Though I don't think Stubborn denial needs to be more than a one-of in the side.
- Despise was an all star. So much so that I may take Thoughtseize down to two in the side and replace it with the fourth Despise. I don't like Thoughtseize in this deck but it is kind of a necessary evil. Between it and the fetchlands, I think we lose too much life, even with taking Ram and Archangel into account. I may try completely cutting it next week and see how it goes, just to experiment.
Anyway, I'll be taking this to Game Day tomorrow hopefully and should get more practice in with it
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Esper is where it's at right now. I'm running a UWb list that uses black for 4 MB Downfalls, 1 murderous cutting, 1 utter end and 1 silence.
The rest is UW control with a fairly fast mana base (16 untapped lands with 3 radiant fountains.(one is the 61st card).
I can pretty reliably untapped with turn two and hold Nullify/negate open, dissolve t3 and go from there.
Sideboard 1 Erase (for combo) 1 Disdainful Stroke (My Meta is dirty with abzan midrange) 1 Gainsay (A nod to other control decks, and Temur, which is kind of randomly this deck's worst nightmare.) 2 Prognostic Sphinx (For more aggression/vs Storm breath/sarkhan decks) 3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver (My meta has some of these huge green decks that Gen is is hydra and see the unwritten their entire threat base, and ashiok is hilarious vs them.) 1 Resolute Archangel 1 Silence the Believers (Will become a fated ret for game day if I can find one..) 1 End Hostilities 4 Last Breath
did banishing light lose alot of power in the swap over?
are to many people siding in erase?
I've always liked banishing light, but idk what I'd drop for it if i were to replace it.
also are draw spells like divination/jaces ingenueity and font of fortunes important?
noticed nearly every esper deck plays draws of some sort (other than dig) but the list I have doesn't.
I don't like tapping out on our turn unless it's for a threat, so Banishing Light is a card I have never really liked. It's not a bad card, but we have better options to remove anything Banishing Light could, without having to worry if they are packing enchantment removal. because of the rise of the Ascendancy combo, a lot of decks have some form of enchantment hate on their side, and there is nothing worse than paying three mana to Banishing Light something only for them to instant speed Erase/Back to nature/etc to make it come back when we aren't prepared.
Also, yes card draw is important. Dig Through Time is an incredible card, but sometimes you just need raw card advantage. A lot of our cards are one for one removal, so we are in parity with our opponent. But with cards like Abzan Charm and Genesis Hydra around, we need ways to not only keep with our opponent's cards, but try and outpace them in raw cards so that we don't get into topdeck mode as often - our topdecks are usually going to be weaker than theirs because of their reactive nature. Font of Fortunes also gives you a turn two play, which we don't really have, and then we can pop it when we don't need to play anything else.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
do yu guys like it as a side board card vs the ramp decks that can get out a 3-4 sarkhan/polkuranos/etc?
I'm not sure what I'd add in my deck. MAybe draw power?
@waerlock: How you like the perlious vault? i've been seeing alot of lists add it and have been wanting to give it a try myself
Also the idea of splashing red and going 4 color control intrigues me. What do you guys think on splashing red for keranos and chandra and kinda using lilly+chandra to play any card out of your deck when you need it
Sarkhan is actually very easily for us to deal with, seeing as we should be packing the full 4 Hero's Downfall and copy or two of Utter End. I admit he can be problematic if left unchecked, but pretty much any Walker is. If we think they are playing Sarkhan or we use a discard spell and see that they have it and opt not to take it, we need to organize our game plan to deal with him.
Polukranos on the other hand is not a big deal. He's really just a vanilla creature that can be pumped since he doesn't have any Monstrosity targets to kill. I will be more than happy to chump him with Ram and then End Hostilities or just use spot removal when he comes down. The real card that is a pain is Rakshasa Deathdealer - that card does work against us. We have to basically apply a lot of pressure against them to make them want to tap out or use their mana, and then take advantage of that to kill it when they don't have regen mana up. This can be very tough sometimes. Though obviously Ram is also an all star here because they have to pump twice to kill it.
As for splashing red, I admit that Keranos is sweet in any control deck, but I don't think Chandra does enough. Her + Lili is cute and I have done it before in Grixis, but A: If you can get both of them out without them dying you are probably just winning anyway, and B: Chandra is RR, which is way harder to warp our manabase around for a card that is only good like 30% of the time in our deck. I honestly don't think she does much for our deck, since we run a decent amount of counters and she pretty much makes us play our Instants are glorified Sorceries, not leaving as much mana up during our opponent's turns, if at all.
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I make art!
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing: Standard: UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
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What matchups should I be aware of ? I am guessing rabble red..but those do not seem that common in MTGO. Anything else?
Also, regarding the red splash someone suggested. Has it worked out? It seems like an interesting idea. A small but consistent splash would open the way for Mardu charm or crackling doom (even Rabblemaster from the SB for the control mirror!) which are awesome!
Thanks
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Resolute Archangel
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Dissolve
3 End Hostilities
4 Dig Through Time
3 Font of Fortunes
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
4 Bile Blight
1 Prognostic Sphinx
3 Despise
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Negate
1 End Hostilities
1 Nyx-Fleece Ram
3 Thoughtseize
3 Last Breath
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
1 Perilous Vault
Also, I would like to note that I normally like divination over font of fortunes but with 12 scry lands that come into play tapped I like on turn 3 that you can just play font of fortunes and then play scry land it's been working out well.
I also have been liking despise in the maindeck over thoughtseize like against a deck like jeskai wins I've taken their mantis rider or rabblemaster which has been pretty effective for me since then you also have nyx fleece ram and resolute archangel to off set their burn. I have also been playing against a lot of aggro decks lately so I like having three last breaths in the board.
You also probably are wondering why I don't run ashiok it's because this deck has plenty of other things to do on turn 3 and beyond. I just like playing a a discard spell and using the mana left over to leave mana up for bile blight or just play font of fortunes. Besides black has plenty of other powerful cards to run besides ashiok like utter end, hero's downfall and thoughtseize. The one perilous vault and the third last breath are the two flexible slots in the sideboard, so they can be anything you want if you choose to play this list but if not that's also fine I don't force people to trying my lists anyway but feel free to do so as the list has been working out for me.
Oh and I also suppose the pearl lake ancient is also another flexible slot in the sideboard since it goes with perilous vault as well. So yeah the flexible slots can be anything that makes sense for metagaming.
I just felt like sharing my list and that is all.
In terms of combating Jeskai Wins, I have found a lot of good results in playing Stubborn Denial when I played Grixis. Because Jeskai is all about using mana efficiently as tempo-minded as possible, they will often tap out to cast burn spells or will want to cast two spells consecutively, and this card lets us mess up their plans in that regard for a very cheap mana cost. Plus, it turns on with Archangel out, which is a serendipitous bonus. However, I don't think this card is that great in ANY other matchup, except maybe the mirror (but probably not). I'm not sure if it's worth packing this just to combat Jeskai wins or if just playing Negate is better. What kind of luck have you guys found versus Jeskai?
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
3 Rams in the main, 3 Ashioks in the main, and side in 2 Bile Blights and another Archangel... pray to see your counters and have a turn 3 Ashiok..
edit: I should say, I understand that there are other good cards against them like Ram and Bile Blight, etc, but a lot of people seem to be putting stock specifically into Ashiok as a way to combat Jeskai very favorably.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Find me on TappedOut also!
Trade with me!! Always in search of cards!
1x Resolute Archangel
1x Medomai the Ageless
2x Thoughtseize
2x End Hostilities
3x banishing Light
1x Despise
2x Bile Blight
2x Utter End
3x Heros Downfall
2x Last Breath
2x Murderous Cut
2x Dissolve
2x Dig Through Time
3x Lilliana
2x Jace
1x Elspeth
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Islands
2x Urborg
3x Temple of deceit
3x Temple of enlightnement
1x Temple of silence
2x Caves of Koilos
1x Mana confluence
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Dismal Backwater
I took it to a local qualifer and went 1-3 drop. I split all my other matches. I've managed to do well vs the meta decks. Abzan is surprisingly a good matchup and i feel i have the advantage. The very fast aggro decks can be a problem
Also, thoughts on 3x lilliana and 1 elspeth over 2 and 2? My thinking is that on turn 5/6, i don't want to draw an elspeth. Not that i WANT to draw lilliana, but I'd rather draw lilly than elspeth on turn 5. And if i really want elspeth, i can tutor for her
any suggestions for my list? I've tried brimaz a few times but double white isn't consistent enough on turn 3 for me to like it.
also, would it be possible and worth while to splash green for abzan and sultai charms?
Jeskai doesn't run many creatures so it's best to tap out as soon as you can for Ashiok and save your removal for their riders after. They have more burn than your counters, their burn is cheaper than your counters so sitting on a counter while they build up enough mana to shoot 2-3 burn spells over the course of 1 turn isn't efficient use of your mana. The waiting game is not in your favour against this deck. Ashiok has high loyalty so he often will eat 2 burn spells which is about 6-8 damage to your face. If they don't kill Ashiok, he exiles 3 cards a turn compared to their draw 1 which is still chance but odds are in your favour you're going to take something nasty. Back this up with life gain and some counters and with a good draw and some luck, I think it's the best way to combat the deck. Ashiok is probably your best threat as it comes out early and does permanent damage to their deck while providing a distraction for your life total. Exiling over 3 burn spells and even the odd creature is no joke. As long as you can keep your life total healthy through life gain, Ashiok is one of your better threats.
I really like your idea of Stubborn Denial. Seems like some high level counter picking Jeskai with their tempo style.
Okay that actually does make a lot of sense. I could see how Ashiok becomes this very "damned if you do, damned if you don't" card for them to try and deal with. So since that matchup is so bad for us, should we be running 4-of Ashiok between the main and sideboard? (S)he also seems very good against the midrangey decks that play Siege Rhino and Courser, so I feel like it may be worthwhile to have as many copies as possible, but maybe that's not right.
edit: By the way has anyone tried Kill Shot in the main or sideboard? I really like the card for how easy it is to cast, the fact that it kills an attacking creature (which honestly are the only creatures we really care about), and is non conditional nature unlike Reprisal, Last Breath, etc. Obviously I'm not saying we should replace Hero's Downfall with it, but I just was wondering if anyone had messed with it yet.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
also, does anyone else feel stormbreath dragon is like the bane of this deck? I seriously hate when a stormbreath gets cast vs me
I'd much rather try to deal with sarkhan, sorin, siege rhino, so many other cards than a stormbraeth
Anyway, this is what I ran tonight:
1 Resolute Archangel
3 Nyx Fleece Ram
Planeswalkers
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Liliana Vess
Instants
4 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Dissolve
2 Utter End
1 Murderous Cut
2 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Dig Through Time
3 Despise
3 End Hostilities
26 Lands
2 Erase
3 Thoughtseize
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Last Breath
1 Nyx Fleece Ram
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 End Hostilities
1 Resolute Archangel
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
Note: I was missing a Dig Through Time ( I was expecting to run three) so I replaced it with an extra Jace's Ingenuity.
Overall the deck performed very well, and I was very pleased with the results even if my record doesn't seem fantastic. I'll give some brief notes on matches.
Game 1: 2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
This match is our toughest, so i was really worried about it. And game one I got burned out really early, too much pressure being put on me. It was pretty easy for him. i think the only card I cast was a Hero's Downfall and a Dissolve. Game two I landed an early Nyx Fleece Ram followed by and Ashiok, both which caused him to really struggle with burning me out. Ashiok did a lot of work here, grabbing me a Keranos, which went on to get me enough card advantage to land a Liliana and Elspeth, stabilizing at around 5 life. Game three I Despise'd a Keranos early and landed a Ram, which he had to Stoke to kill. I landed an Elspeth he couldn't deal with and he tried to burn me out, getting me to 2 life. However, an Elspeth ultimate won me the game.
Game 2: 1-1-1 vs Abzan Midrange
The first game was pretty cut and dry - he played a bunch of threats, Monstrosity'd a Fleecemane Lion, and I wiped the board with End Hostilities, leaving just the Lion left before playing Elspeth to create chump blockers every turn. Despise was amazing in this matchup and Elspeth won it for me. Game two I got kind of screwed by my lands and wasn't able to counter a Siege Rhino on time. We had some back and forth but I didn't see enough removal and he overpowered me. Game three was tedious - I had a fair amount of removal, but he landed Ajani and was able to to get two Fleemane Lions out. I played Elspeth to create blockers and he removed it with banishing Light. Ram put up a good wall, but he busted through before I used End Hostilities to kill everything else he had and played a Resolute Archangel on time turn 3, making it impossible for him to win.
Game 3: 0-2 vs Mardu Midrange
The first game I ended up with all white black lands and three Dissolves and a Dog Through Time in my hand. I didn't even put up a fight. Game two went really long - Ashiok did really good work here and almost milled him out, but Sarkhan keep beating my face in and even after playing Resolute Archangel, he still killed me. I didn't see any removal spells, and so he ended up ultimating Sarkhan, drowning me in card advantage but winning 7 cards before milling himself.
Game 4: 2-0 vs Jeskai Tempo
this was a Jeskai Tempo variant that used Ascendancy. Not as a combo piece, but just as a way to filter through cards and pump his guys. Game one I drew plenty of removal and landed a Ram early so I was able to hold him back until Elspeth got an ultimate off. game two I landed a Ram early again, but he got two Ascendancies out, and I was stuck looking at an awkward Bile Blight after he used Feat of Resistance on his Mantis Rider to stop a Hero's Downfall. However, I used back to back Dig Through Times to get two more Rams out, doing a good job at mitigating my life loss. Eventually he ran out of spells and I was able to run out a Liliana, stopping him from getting too many cards, and landed an Elspeth shortly after. A well timed Stubborn Denial helped me avoid a Stoke the Flames, and i was able to get Resolute Archangel out to put me out of burn range and win.
Overall, the deck works great,a nd I had a really good time with it. It felt like a deck that could attack rom different angles and always kept your opponent guessing. In fact I had multiple times when an opponent assumed I had a counterspell and would just flat out not play a threat out of fear.
A couple notes:
- Last Breath seemed useless. Bile Blight is harder to cast, but did way more work, and needing all these cards against Aggro seems like overkill. I'm going to cut them for probably two Reprisals or a Reprisal and a Negate.
- End Hostilities wasn't the best card int he deck, but did serious work against Abzan and even the Jeskai decks once or twice. It's a really solid card, but not spectacular. I'm not sure if I need the fourth in the side, but I'll keep trying it.
- Erase was amazing. I got rid of a lot of banishing Lights with it, and keeping one mana up is very easy and deceptive in our deck. This is the same reason Stubborn Denial did pretty well too - keeping one mana up is usually incredibly easy with out deck. Though I don't think Stubborn denial needs to be more than a one-of in the side.
- Despise was an all star. So much so that I may take Thoughtseize down to two in the side and replace it with the fourth Despise. I don't like Thoughtseize in this deck but it is kind of a necessary evil. Between it and the fetchlands, I think we lose too much life, even with taking Ram and Archangel into account. I may try completely cutting it next week and see how it goes, just to experiment.
Anyway, I'll be taking this to Game Day tomorrow hopefully and should get more practice in with it
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
did banishing light lose alot of power in the swap over?
are to many people siding in erase?
I've always liked banishing light, but idk what I'd drop for it if i were to replace it.
also are draw spells like divination/jaces ingenueity and font of fortunes important?
noticed nearly every esper deck plays draws of some sort (other than dig) but the list I have doesn't.
The rest is UW control with a fairly fast mana base (16 untapped lands with 3 radiant fountains.(one is the 61st card).
I can pretty reliably untapped with turn two and hold Nullify/negate open, dissolve t3 and go from there.
Edit:
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
2 Nullify
3 Drops
1 Divination
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Drops
1 Silence the Believers
1 Utter End
1 Perilous Vault
5 +
3 End Hostilities
1 Resolute Archangel
2 Pearl Lake Ancient
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time
2 Swamp (might drop 1x black source for 1 more plains..)
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Evolving Wilds
3 Radiant Fountain
2 Poluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Cave of Kilos
2 Tranquil Cove (8 life through lands that can be recycled through ple)
4 UW Scry
2 UB Scry
2 WB Scry
1 Erase (for combo)
1 Disdainful Stroke (My Meta is dirty with abzan midrange)
1 Gainsay (A nod to other control decks, and Temur, which is kind of randomly this deck's worst nightmare.)
2 Prognostic Sphinx (For more aggression/vs Storm breath/sarkhan decks)
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver (My meta has some of these huge green decks that Gen is is hydra and see the unwritten their entire threat base, and ashiok is hilarious vs them.)
1 Resolute Archangel
1 Silence the Believers (Will become a fated ret for game day if I can find one..)
1 End Hostilities
4 Last Breath
I don't like tapping out on our turn unless it's for a threat, so Banishing Light is a card I have never really liked. It's not a bad card, but we have better options to remove anything Banishing Light could, without having to worry if they are packing enchantment removal. because of the rise of the Ascendancy combo, a lot of decks have some form of enchantment hate on their side, and there is nothing worse than paying three mana to Banishing Light something only for them to instant speed Erase/Back to nature/etc to make it come back when we aren't prepared.
Also, yes card draw is important. Dig Through Time is an incredible card, but sometimes you just need raw card advantage. A lot of our cards are one for one removal, so we are in parity with our opponent. But with cards like Abzan Charm and Genesis Hydra around, we need ways to not only keep with our opponent's cards, but try and outpace them in raw cards so that we don't get into topdeck mode as often - our topdecks are usually going to be weaker than theirs because of their reactive nature. Font of Fortunes also gives you a turn two play, which we don't really have, and then we can pop it when we don't need to play anything else.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)
Did well at game day, went x-1-1 into top 8 and lost a durdle fest to a 4c (no green) control thing. I beat him r5 but he got me.
Changes going forward
2 Negate
2 Nullify
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
1 Perilous Vault
4 End Hostilities
1 Aetherspouts
2 Pearl Lake Ancient
4 Dig Through Time
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
1 Resolute Archangel
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Island
3 Radiant Fountain
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Evolving Wilds
1 W/B Temple
2 Tranquil Cove
2 U/B Temple
4 U/W Temple
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Resolute Archangel
1 Erase
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Gainsay
1 Nullify
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
1 Fated Retribution
I'm not sure what I'd add in my deck. MAybe draw power?
@waerlock: How you like the perlious vault? i've been seeing alot of lists add it and have been wanting to give it a try myself
Also the idea of splashing red and going 4 color control intrigues me. What do you guys think on splashing red for keranos and chandra and kinda using lilly+chandra to play any card out of your deck when you need it
Polukranos on the other hand is not a big deal. He's really just a vanilla creature that can be pumped since he doesn't have any Monstrosity targets to kill. I will be more than happy to chump him with Ram and then End Hostilities or just use spot removal when he comes down. The real card that is a pain is Rakshasa Deathdealer - that card does work against us. We have to basically apply a lot of pressure against them to make them want to tap out or use their mana, and then take advantage of that to kill it when they don't have regen mana up. This can be very tough sometimes. Though obviously Ram is also an all star here because they have to pump twice to kill it.
As for splashing red, I admit that Keranos is sweet in any control deck, but I don't think Chandra does enough. Her + Lili is cute and I have done it before in Grixis, but A: If you can get both of them out without them dying you are probably just winning anyway, and B: Chandra is RR, which is way harder to warp our manabase around for a card that is only good like 30% of the time in our deck. I honestly don't think she does much for our deck, since we run a decent amount of counters and she pretty much makes us play our Instants are glorified Sorceries, not leaving as much mana up during our opponent's turns, if at all.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors, I mostly post from my tablet/smartphone.
Currently playing:
Standard:
UBRControl
Commander:
White Makes Right (Mikaeus, The Lunarch)
Izzet Fun Yet? (Jhoira of the Ghitu)
The Perfect Storm (Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge)
Dead Grave Walking (Skullbriar, the Walking Grave)
How Could You Be So Heartless? (Heartless Hidetsugu)