@marsh9799: I'll have to disagree. At the risk of going into semantics, lets define what a "control" deck is. A match always has a control player and a beatdown player, even mono red mirror has a control and beatdown player (and, of course, who's who can change as the match goes on). So what is a control "deck". A control deck is a deck whose pilot wants to be the control player in every moment of every game. The best example of true control decks are Floch's M15 deck, or the Nephalia Drownyard/snapcaster mage decks of the innistrad block. These are decks that almost never wanted to beat down on anyone. Just defend, defend, defend.
I don't think "defence defence defence" is what this deck does. This deck uses removal and countermagic to buy time until a bid beater (Ojutai, Ugin, the Silumgars) comes down and then beats your face in. This is a deck that wants to be the control in the early game, but really beats down mid/late game. So yeah, it plays draw-go in the early game, but not because it wants to lock your opponent out of playing (like the original draw go decks) but, rather, because it is buying time until it goes fully beatdown on the opponent.
I think that in the spectrum Agrro----- Midrange------Control this deck is definitely more controlling that the big abzan decks for sure, but there are some decks that are even more controlling (like Cuneo's UW or Sullivan's UB).
Using the definitions form the article you posted, Dragons seems much more what the author calls "hybrid control" or "midrange control" than "control". Dragons decks try to buy time and then commit a 4 turn clock (ojutai) that forces the opponent to answer it or die. It never wins by inevitability. It wins by putting you on a clock and turning the tables: the hunted is now the hunter, the defender is now the aggressor. This is different than saying "hey, I'll answer all your threats and then I inevitably win because you can't". Anyhow, I don't wish to start a "more controlling than thou" debate. I was simply pointing out my conclusions form Fabiano's deck. And that conclusion is that the deck is great if you enjoy tapping out for threats that put your opponents on a clock, and having cards that protect said threat (a "protect the queen" approach if you like). But if you enjoy winning by playing lands, saying "no" and waiting until all your opponent has left in his deck is useless air, then this might not be the deck for you.
Hybrid control, in the end, seeks to establish complete control over the time in the game. In other words, hybrid control seeks to reach a board state from which it can halt its opponent’s forward progress (momentum) and generally win the game soon afterward.
Control is completely unconcerned with any proactive game plan. Control is concerned with recovering lost time and board advantage in a variety of ways. In other words, control is concerned with being able to develop its resources and neutralizing an opponent’s board position.
Went 3-1 at FNM beating 2 Jeskai mid range and abzan mid range, losing to burn and beating burn in top 8 to split top 4.
Jeskai midrange isn't a huge deal now that I have the full 4 Foul Tongue after board.
Abzan midrange match was pretty annoying after board with him boarding in 12 cards. 4 Duress, 4 Foul-Tongue Invocation, 4 Den Protector. He had 4 Thoughtseize main. Ended up getting him with a Silumgar I got back with Haven of the Spirit Dragon with less then 10 cards in my deck after he killed 3 of my dragons, Tasigur milled one and he killed both Tasigur. Maybe Risen Executioner will help against him. Although they are kinda bad against Rhino.
I might try Risen Executioner in place of Tasigur next week. I like Tasigur except when Tasigur mills one of my dragons. Expecting more Esper Dragons in the future but I only saw the same 3 of us playing it and two of us played it week one. Not so sure though since Tasigur is good all the time out of the board while Risen Executioner only seems good against control.
Haven of the Spirit dragon i will probably cut. It was bad for mana twice and I actually used it once against the Abzan player who boarded in 4 Foul Tongue.
Still have not run into Megamorph Abzan. There is not a lot of esper dragons at my FNM. Maybe Silence the Believers or Perilous Vault is worth running if Megamorph Abzan is popular?
@Fabiano's list
The Gerard Fabiano list looks interesting.
I might switch to the Fabiano 3 Ojutai and 1 Silumgar split. Ojutai's card advantage is amazing but Silumgar's always on hex proof is nice to not always require a counter for protection and the Silumgar -1/-1 trigger is really amazing against mono red.
As much as I like Ashiok and taking the opponent's creatures I have not been too impressed by Ashiok in Esper. Running Ashiok require's playing Thoughtseize to clear the way and I don't really like Thoughtseize with lots of fast aggro at my local friday night magic. Also with Esper you do not have any quick blockers to defend Ashiok. Sultai had Wayfinder to find land and block for a turn which was enough to protect Ashiok.
Self Inflicted Wound seems too tailored for Abzan. Do not like it being a sorcery either. Think I prefer Foul-Tongue since it can gain you life and is an instant.
how do people feel on going being more control heavy and having the full 4 dissolves and full 4 scorns and an assortment of removal with a lower dragon count?
atm I have a 2/2 split with ojutai and silumgar (ugin+2 havens) and its been working fairly well for me
Ive noticed alot of decks are starting to go to 3 or even 4 ojutai with a few silumgars thrown in.
yeah, Ojutai >> Silumgar. Wafo Tapa had a 4 dissolves, 4 scorns, 2 Ojutai, 2 Silumgar deck at the PT. So it's definitely doable. I think his list was basically 4-of the obvious cards (downfall, scrons, dissolves, dig), 4 dragons, and then some number of blights, prices and anticipates.
how do people feel on going being more control heavy and having the full 4 dissolves and full 4 scorns and an assortment of removal with a lower dragon count?
atm I have a 2/2 split with ojutai and silumgar (ugin+2 havens) and its been working fairly well for me
Ive noticed alot of decks are starting to go to 3 or even 4 ojutai with a few silumgars thrown in.
I been running 4 Dissolve, 4 Silumgar's Scorn with 2 Ojutai and 2 Silumgar since day 1 and it works for me. 8 Counters is really good. Considering a move to 3 Ojutai and 1 Silumgar though but the 2/2 split has been good so far. I only run 1 Haven because I am more heavy into white for Utter End and Arashin Cleric.
If the Megamorph deck shows up more I think replacing some of the Dissolves with Dissipate might be a good idea. Although Scry one dissolve is really nice, the exile on Dissipate if countering Raptor sounds good.
yeah, Ojutai >> Silumgar. Wafo Tapa had a 4 dissolves, 4 scorns, 2 Ojutai, 2 Silumgar deck at the PT. So it's definitely doable. I think his list was basically 4-of the obvious cards (downfall, scrons, dissolves, dig), 4 dragons, and then some number of blights, prices and anticipates.
I agree with this build of 4 Dig Through Time, 4 Dissolve, 4 Hero's Downfall, 4 Silumgar's Scorn. These cards are just so good. 4 Dragons works except against mono red I think you want more to be certain you have one to gain life off of Foul-Tongue and you want to jam one on 5 or 6 and win before they can burn you out.
went to SCG portland and went 3-4 before dropping :/.
Lost to jeskai tokens round 1, GR dragons round 3, Abzan aggro round 6, and then mardu something round 7
Beat GR dragons in Round 2, GW devotion in round 5, mono black aggro round 3
I'm not sure 3 ojutai is what I want. Constantly I'd have one and then draw another when I didn't want it at the time. I might go back to 1 silumgar and 2 ojutai or 2/2 split
I'm also thinking of abandoning the dragons all together and going a super friends list. Something like 4 ashiok, 3 elspeth, 2 sorin, 2 narset, a Lilianna, and maybe an ugin.
Cut the scorns/foul tongues and just go a tap out slam threat type style.
Probably isn't good but I'm goign to give it a go at my shops next small casual event
I'm also thinking of abandoning the dragons all together and going a super friends list. Something like 4 ashiok, 3 elspeth, 2 sorin, 2 narset, a Lilianna, and maybe an ugin.
Cut the scorns/foul tongues and just go a tap out slam threat type style.
Probably isn't good but I'm goign to give it a go at my shops next small casual event
I ran a deck kinda like what you described at FNM the other night and went 4-1. Made some modifications to the deck, but this is where I'm currently at. It's a control deck at heart, but can very much play a sort-of midrange game, and it switches from defense to offense on the drop of a dime.
This deck spawned from me liking to cast a massive Secure the Wastes at the end of my opponent's turn, but in this deck, I wanted to make that the focus, and following it up with a Sorin is just nasty. Raise the Alarm gives the deck an amazing matchup against mono-red, and lets you start putting pressure on your opponent early if they're going slow. This deck just laughs at removal like Foul-Tongue Invocation and Roast, and with the popularity of those types of cards, tokens is pretty well positioned. You do have to be aware of Virulent Plague and Bile Blight, but just don't spam too many of those token producers at once, and have those counters and Erases on standby.
I went 2-2 this past friday. Same list as last week but tried boarded 2 Risen Executioner instead of two Tasigur. Risen Executioner was terrible because I was wishing it as Tasigur like every match since I didn't play any control mirrors.
Beat Jeskai Tokens 2-1, Abzan Aggro 2-0 lost to Mega Morph 1-2.
Lost for first time against the raptor/den protector deck. Lost 2-1. Managed to get a win out of an early ojutai and utter end his raptor followed by countering every more or attempt to kill ojutai. One game I just got stuck on 3 lands and the other game got ran over with mega morphs, since didn't draw enough counters and only hit one utter end.
Also lost to this Rally the Ancestors combo deck 2-1 with Enchantment creatures and the creature that your opponent loses 1 life for each enchantment that enters play as well as the devotion haste creature so you would lose a bunch of life and if that didn't kill you the creatures attacking with haste would kill you. I did get him one game but then he brought in the discard and ran me out of counters the other two.
I am considering trying Dissipate instead of Dissolve, maybe a 1 of Silence the Believers with side board Perilous Vaults for these two match ups if they become more popular.
@Systematicpro
Have not tried the 3 Ojutai but I like the 2 Ojutai, 2 Silumgar the Drifting Death split.
I actually like Sultai if you want to play a Super friends list. Wayfinder provides a chump blocker to protect your planeswalkers and finds you land and fuels delver. Garruk is pretty awesome in killing planeswalkers or creatures or making 3/3 beasts.
I do not like Devouring Light because of the sorcery speed and enchantment removal becomes a blow out. Your better off with Dissipate, Silence the Believers and Utter End exiling their card out right without letting them have the chance of getting it back.
I ran into my first Deathmist raptor/den protector deck last week. The net deckers are starting to show up now. Seems to be more Esper Dragons too this past week but didn't play any of them.
@megaman125
Interesting deck.
How has Ashiok been with no Thoughtseize to clear the way? Raise the Alarm probably serves well to provide chump blockers to protect Ashiok.
I do not like token strategies because I like using Virulent Plague sideboard to improve my Jeskai Tokens and mono red match ups.
I actually like Sultai if you want to play a Super friends list. Wayfinder provides a chump blocker to protect your planeswalkers and finds you land and fuels delver. Garruk is pretty awesome in killing planeswalkers or creatures or making 3/3 beasts.
I do not like Devouring Light because of the sorcery speed and enchantment removal becomes a blow out. Your better off with Dissipate, Silence the Believers and Utter End exiling their card out right without letting them have the chance of getting it back.
I ran into my first Deathmist raptor/den protector deck last week. The net deckers are starting to show up now. Seems to be more Esper Dragons too this past week but didn't play any of them.
@megaman125
Interesting deck.
How has Ashiok been with no Thoughtseize to clear the way? Raise the Alarm probably serves well to provide chump blockers to protect Ashiok.
I do not like token strategies because I like using Virulent Plague sideboard to improve my Jeskai Tokens and mono red match ups.
Devouring Light is an instant and enchantment removal does nothing to it. I might make the switch from Dissolve to Dissipate after not exiling that Deathmist or Dragon with a counter ends up costing me a game, until then I like the scry too much.
I have thought about Sultai for superfriends because I do like Garruk. However, I'd be sacrificing the token angle and I'm not willing to do that. The deck plays like a midrange control, attacking from multiple angles until 1 or more end up overwhelming my opponent. With Sultai superfriends, it's just one angle (planeswalkers). With that in mind, I don't feel the need to have Thoughtseize because I don't need to clear the way for Ashiok, since Ashiok is not the main focus, it's just one of multiple angles I'm attacking with. Tokens died? Spam more tokens. Tokens still died? Use Ashiok/Narset. Those not working? How about planesawlkers that spam tokens, or start threatening to work towards ultimates on 4 different planeswalkers. Board not favorable? End Hostilities, then spam tokens again.
The Ashioks were in the sideboard for FNM, and I was running Spear of Heliod, but I found myself not really needing or caring about the spear since I had 3 Sorin, and ended up siding them out in every matchup I played, whether it was aggro or control. After the Ashioks performed well, I decided to try them out in the main. (Originally, I also had Ugin in the deck, but that was just... not really needed).
As for Virulent Plague, I do have Erases in the sideboard, but I think more people are going to use their sideboard slots on Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow because those cards are not only good against tokens, they're good against a wider variety of threats that Virulent Plague doesn't touch.
I haven't seen anyone play Jeskai tokens at my LGS, so I have no idea how that matchup would go, but I would imagine it would involve lots of tokens on both sides, Utter Ending/countering Ascendency, and wiping the board should I fall behind on the token making, then spam tokens with Elspeth.
I actually like Sultai if you want to play a Super friends list. Wayfinder provides a chump blocker to protect your planeswalkers and finds you land and fuels delver. Garruk is pretty awesome in killing planeswalkers or creatures or making 3/3 beasts.
I do not like Devouring Light because of the sorcery speed and enchantment removal becomes a blow out. Your better off with Dissipate, Silence the Believers and Utter End exiling their card out right without letting them have the chance of getting it back.
I ran into my first Deathmist raptor/den protector deck last week. The net deckers are starting to show up now. Seems to be more Esper Dragons too this past week but didn't play any of them.
@megaman125
Interesting deck.
How has Ashiok been with no Thoughtseize to clear the way? Raise the Alarm probably serves well to provide chump blockers to protect Ashiok.
I do not like token strategies because I like using Virulent Plague sideboard to improve my Jeskai Tokens and mono red match ups.
Devouring Light is an instant and enchantment removal does nothing to it. I might make the switch from Dissolve to Dissipate after not exiling that Deathmist or Dragon with a counter ends up costing me a game, until then I like the scry too much.
I have thought about Sultai for superfriends because I do like Garruk. However, I'd be sacrificing the token angle and I'm not willing to do that. The deck plays like a midrange control, attacking from multiple angles until 1 or more end up overwhelming my opponent. With Sultai superfriends, it's just one angle (planeswalkers). With that in mind, I don't feel the need to have Thoughtseize because I don't need to clear the way for Ashiok, since Ashiok is not the main focus, it's just one of multiple angles I'm attacking with. Tokens died? Spam more tokens. Tokens still died? Use Ashiok/Narset. Those not working? How about planesawlkers that spam tokens, or start threatening to work towards ultimates on 4 different planeswalkers. Board not favorable? End Hostilities, then spam tokens again.
The Ashioks were in the sideboard for FNM, and I was running Spear of Heliod, but I found myself not really needing or caring about the spear since I had 3 Sorin, and ended up siding them out in every matchup I played, whether it was aggro or control. After the Ashioks performed well, I decided to try them out in the main. (Originally, I also had Ugin in the deck, but that was just... not really needed).
As for Virulent Plague, I do have Erases in the sideboard, but I think more people are going to use their sideboard slots on Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow because those cards are not only good against tokens, they're good against a wider variety of threats that Virulent Plague doesn't touch.
I haven't seen anyone play Jeskai tokens at my LGS, so I have no idea how that matchup would go, but I would imagine it would involve lots of tokens on both sides, Utter Ending/countering Ascendency, and wiping the board should I fall behind on the token making, then spam tokens with Elspeth.
I was thinking Banishing Light which is an enchantment. Sorry. There are not too many creatures that sit around and be annoying with out attacking in current standard so that looks like a good option other then it costs 1WW. I prefer Hero's Downfall because it hits planeswalkers too but you are heavy white.
I really like Ashiok against midrange and control. Not very good against agressive decks. Considering sideboarding Ashiok again but finding space is tough.
Jeskai tokens is really about if they can resolve Accendancy without you having an Utter End for it. If they don't you can easily clear their tokens with Drown in Sorrow. Virulent Plague just kills off Jeskai Tokens if resolved so I board 1 Virulent Plague. It is very good against mono red and their tokens as well.
I was thinking Banishing Light which is an enchantment. Sorry. There are not too many creatures that sit around and be annoying with out attacking in current standard so that looks like a good option other then it costs 1WW. I prefer Hero's Downfall because it hits planeswalkers too but you are heavy white.
I really like Ashiok against midrange and control. Not very good against agressive decks. Considering sideboarding Ashiok again but finding space is tough.
Jeskai tokens is really about if they can resolve Accendancy without you having an Utter End for it. If they don't you can easily clear their tokens with Drown in Sorrow. Virulent Plague just kills off Jeskai Tokens if resolved so I board 1 Virulent Plague. It is very good against mono red and their tokens as well.
Oh ok, yeah, there's a lot of light cards in standard right now, Banishing Light, Devouring Light, Pillar of Light. The 3 mana can be a bit much for only hitting creatures, but I can use my tokens to convoke it, which opens a handful of possibilities, like playing a Raise the Alarm, blocking with the tokens, and casting Devouring Light in my opponent's attack step, or tapping out for some other spell while still having "mana" up for spot removal. I can certainly see why you would want Hero's Downfall, as my build only really has Utter End to hit Planeswalkers. With instant tokens and a possible pump, planeswalkers that are played without some sort of protection don't provide me with too much hassle. I'm also not running downfall because double black is too much on my mana base, hence my choice to go with Utter End.
Ashiok can be ok for me against aggro decks, since I can spam tokens that block or trade with my opponent's stuff, giving me time to use Ashiok to start playing stolen creatures.
I've found my deck has pretty good game against most of the format, and in particular I do really well in the Esper Dragons mirror match. Plague is in the side for Jeskai tokens, might be better served as other cards depending on the meta of the event you expect.
Utter End in the main has been wonderful.
I'll swear by 4 Ojutai. Yes, sometimes you draw too many and it's the pits. But in a deck with so much filtering, that's very rare. Ojutai dies all the time, especially post board, and having the option to trade with it when needed is wonderful. I'm also not as obligated to use my counter spells to protect Ojutai when I run 4 and 2 Haven's as I might be with 3 Ojutai and 1 Haven, instead I can use them to grind the game out longer.
My plan against RDW is to lose game 1 and have a 50/50 or 55/45 game 2 and 3. If I just wanted to fix that match, I'd run more white sources and run 4 Arashin Cleric with 2 Ojutai's Command.
Round 2 vs. Mardu Midrange. 2-1
He curved out with Seeker, Hordeling Outburst, and 2 Butchers. I countered the first butcher, but the second one brought me down to 3 life. I played an End Hostilities, but he had a Lightning Strike in hand. Game 2, he had the same start as game 1, but this time I was better equiped to deal with it. Elspeth and Sorin took over the board, and he had no answer for mass tokens with mass lifegain. Game 3 he got stuck on 2 land for a while, and by the time he found more, I had Sorin on the board with some tokens, which was followed up with more tokens.
I don't recall exactly how I sideboarded this match, but I think I brought in 2 Surge of Righteousness and 2 Negates for 2 Devouring Light and 2 Dissipate, but I may have removed Anticipates.
Round 3 vs. Abzan Aggro. 2-0
Game 1 he was curving out nicely with Fleecemane Lion, Anafenza (which met a counter), and Sorin. He got a few hits in with the Lion until I Utter Ended it after he played Sorin and pumped. Next turn he made a Vampire. An End of turn Secure the Wastes plus my follow up Sorin eliminated his Sorin. He downfalled Sorin, but a Dig Through Time got me another Sorin and Elspeth. The Sorin met another Downfall, and so did Elspeth after blowing up a Rhino he just played. I drew into a 2nd Elspeth with stuck around and won me the game with a bunch of tokens.
I sided out Anticipates for Frost Walkers. Don't recall what else I took out, but I remember bringing in Ojutai's Command as well.
Game 2 was kinda of a blow out. He had to mulligan down to 5, and his first play was a turn 4 Rhino. By the time he got that, I had a Frost Walker and some tokens out. I dropped a Sorin and pumped, swinging with the Frost Walker. After thinking about it, he did trade his Rhino. After that, I spent the rest of the game with 1 for 1 removal on his guys until tokens + Sorin won.
Round 4 vs. Abzan control. 2-0
Game 1 he Thoughtseized me taking my Secure the Wastes. I followed up with a Raise the Alarm while he played Courser of Cruphix. We traded damage for a turn before he left his Courser up to block. I noticed he was getting a lot of lands with the Courser, and with another land on top, I Devouring Lighted the Courser when he blocked my token. We traded some cards 1 for 1 for a while, with me just hoping to ride him out. A Dig got me more fuel. A secure the wastes followed up with Sorin brought him to 4 life, and Nissa wasn't enough of a blockade for me.
Game 2 I got some tokens off of Raise the Alarm, and we traded Ashioks and Downfalls for a couple turns. I got a Narset to stick, then a Sorin while I counted his stuff. He attempted to cast an Ugin the turn before Narset's ultimate, and it was Dissipated.
Round 5 vs. RDW. 1-2
We IDed, but played the match for fun. I was on the play game 1 and had to mulligan down to 5, keeping a hand with 3 land, a Sorin, and Raise the Alarm. I couldn't ask for a better 5 card hand for this matchup. A turn 2 Raise the Alarm traded with a Lightning Berserker and Denizen, and a turn 3 Secure the Wastes traded with 2 Satyrs while he played a 2nd Eidolon. I followed up with a Sorin, making a vampire, while he burned them both, taking 8 damage in the process. A dig got me Secure the Wastes and Elspeth. Secure for 4 traded with his 2 Eidolons, and I played Elspeth with 5 life remaining, then came back and won.
Game 2 he Twin Bolted my Raise the Alarm tokens before they could block, and I was sad. Things got worse as I started missing land drops and he was able to overrun me, despite having every 2 mana card I could want in my opening hand. Game 3 was much the same with me missing land drops.
Overall the deck ran great, and I plan on taking it to a PPTQ next Saturday. I will swap Surge of Righteousness for Arashin Cleric in the sideboard. I feel I really need to go for a creature gameplan against red decks, plus the cleric has more synergy with Ojutai's Command and Sorin.
So given the results of the last two weeks, it seems clear that the meta has shifted towards three flavors of Abzan mid-range (I'll explain below why I think from the more aggressive, Beatdown Aggro and Megamorph builds to the much more control-ish "Control" build are all mid-range if anyone cares), GW Co-Co, and Mono-Red/Atarka Aggro, with Esper falling a bit behind, I think we have to ask, "What's a real control player to do? Have aggro and mid-range re-asserted their seemingly inevitable post-M11 dominance in Standard?"
Esper Dragons players have been slow to innovate, and I suspect that is because the focus has been on "I player Esper over UB because of Dragonlord Ojutai." All responses have been driven by two things: staying in "Esper = UBw for Ojutai" mindset and Reid Duke's "Win the mirror first" perspective.
The meta seems to require going in the other direction.
Embrace Esper over UB splashing w
We need to expand the role of white mana, especially for Utter End. 2 Utter End in the main allow us to move to 2 Hero's Downfall safely while providing an answer to every non-land, non-hexproof, non-Stormbreath Dragon permanent, with exile. This is where I make the pitch that exile and non-creature, non-land permanent removal are increasingly important.
I have personally retreated from Narset for the moment because she isn't doing enough in this meta. Thank you Thoughtseize, you big, fat jerk.
Is there anything else in White that we might consider? You tell me. I'm not ready to go Ojutai's Command + Arashin Clericbecause I think it is a bit too focused on Mono-Red and not good enough against Abzan.
Win the Mirror vs. Win the Aggro Match
Reid Duke, all around amazing player and apparently super nice guy, made a point that was great two weeks ago, but I think it is wrong now. You used to want to win Game 1 in the mirror more than you wanted to win Game 1 against anything else. That is a passed moment. If you lose Game 1 to Abzan Aggro, GW Co-Co, Abzan Megamorph, or Mono-R/Atarka Aggro, chances are you lose one of the other two games to them as well. On the other hand, in a land of control decks with finishers that can take over a game and limited lifegain for control, you can play 3 games without a draw.
The more mirror-centric Esper deck will likely beat you game 1, but after sideboarding it is a game of skill and chance. On the other hand, if you constantly lose Game 1 to Abzan and Red, you are going to be out of the tournament far too quickly.
Other changes Ultimate Price is actually quite weak at the moment, except versus Mono-Red and Mono-Green, and it is only better than Bile Blight in the latter. Better two Hero's Downfall in the side than UP. Better the fourth Foul-Tongue Invocation.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is strong against everything except mono-red. Run at least 1 and maybe 2 in the main.
As exile improves, so does Perilous Vault. It not only griefs the graveyard game, but it forces players to slow down. I'm not suggesting getting rid of a Crux of Fateyet, but you should have 1 PV somewhere in your 75. Also, adjust your playstyle accordingly. Don't slam multiple dragons if you need to play a PV. Play like a control player, not a fake-control-really-mid-range player.
Dissipate is a pretty good card. If you are only playing 2 Dissolve, maybe the scry counts for less than exile... It is also good in the mirror because it makes Haven worse.
Thoughtseize might be better out of the side in the mirror than in the main against the other decks. They are typically too threat-heavy and 2 life is a significant loss. Then again, taking away a Den Protector is pretty good too.
Side Bar aka Rant
All the Abzan decks are mid-range. ALL of them. ALL OF THEM. Don't be fooled.
Aggro decks win turn 4 with some combination of creatures and reach (aka burn and/or pump), with no concern for interacting with you. If you ask your opponent's deck, "Do you interact with me?", an actual Aggro deck will respond, "What is this "interaction" of which you speak? Oh, and you're dead." Mono-R, RDW, Mono-W Humans and Bant Auras were all relatively recent aggro decks.
Abzan Aggro and Megamorph aka Mid-Range Beatdown
Largely the same deck, FWIW.
1. They interact quite a bit with the opponent: Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, Abzan Charm.
2. They play planeswalkers.
3. Reliance on CMC 4 and 5 creatures.
4. Designed to win in the mid-game (round 5-8).
5. They can make use of 6+ mana.
6. Draw spells. 'Nuff said.
Verdict? Seriously? Not aggro. Even less aggro than GR Ramp was and ramp decks are classic mid-range beatdown.
Abzan Control
This is a harder case to make, but I will make it.
1. Way too many creatures. Control decks rarely run more than 6 wincons because everything else is interaction.
2. The deck seeks to incrementally improve its position over yours, especially on the board, but also in the hand (think Thoughtseize plus a little draw.) For example, board-wipe is a last resort, not a staple. Elspeth mostly ought to make three creatures and jam your opponent up, allowing you, again, to progress your board. Control keeps the field clean and establishes inevitability. Even Esper Dragons plays that game, thanks to hexproof creatures and a ton of removal/counter.
3. No counterspells. Some control decks play more, some play less, and once in a great while midrange plays a couple (usually some odd Blue Jund-style hybrid or RUG), but it's a staple piece of control decks.
4. Following on point 2, not enough draw.
5. Follow up on 1 and 2, the playstyle of this deck wants to use mana efficiently every turn to remove a threat or play a threat. If this deck isn't tapped out, it probably didn't do something right or it is stuck without a play and is not happy.
This deck is far closer to Mono-B Mid-Range from the last standard than anyone would like to admit.
So here's a version designed to address the new Deathmist/Den Protector meta, this version is less UBw and more UBW, which was initiated by the desire to play Elspeth. Benefits over previous versions include no longer stressing over generating UU and/or BB on T2, the mana is gentler and more versatile; Elspeth does a great job of clogging the ground up nicely, and there's more versatile sideboard options. As many lists have, the deck has pushed Foul-Tongue to a 4x, and Perilous Vault and Utter End both make maindeck appearances. With Foul Tongue and Scorn maxed out, it's important to have the Dragons to support them and Ojutai has also been pushed to 4. Dragonlord Silumgar was chosen as the fifth dragon due to his ability to steal 'Walkers, one of the ways this deck tries to address not being able to play Downfall anymore. Between Vault, Dragonlord, and the single Utter End, as well as Ugin, this should help make up for the loss of what is typically 2-3 Downfalls in prior UBw lists. Murderous Cut comes in at an increased number alongside the full compliment of fetchlands to help make up for the missing Downfalls as well. It is, however, limited to a 2x due to the fact that I don't think the deck could well support 4 digs and more than 2 cuts. Valorous Stance is basically the 3rd Cut I wanted to play but couldn't, and has some versatility to protect your own dragons.
Narset is maybe my most questionable choice, but every time I look at this list, I see so many things I want to rebound, I see a ton of scrying to setup the top card of the deck, and I always see Narset coming on 6 freaking loyalty for 4 mana, so she's getting tried out as a 1x. The first time I rebound Foul Tongue is probably gonna feel really good. Aaanyway, I'll see how it does tomorrow night. I feel like RDW is a problem, but I also feel like every deck feels that way to an extent. The four foul tongues and the Last Breaths, hopefully will make for a better match than it seems on paper.
Elspeth is a good idea because she does jam up the board and it forces them to play more on the board. I don't know that I want her main deck, but out of the side, very much so. I like her better than Vault because clogging the board is better with our deck than wiping it.
Few critical notes:
25 lands is too little. You need at least 27, and maybe 28 with that many 5-8 drops. I would drop Ugin and Narset for lands.
Ashiok is better than Elspeth Game 1 against Control and still strong against GW Co-Co and the Abzan builds. Exiling creatures is good. Exiling their hand and graveyard is excellent. Ashiok is the best way to control the graveyard available to control.
It's a little wonky as sideboards go, but Silence is suddenly really strong and because we are beating mid-range decks that play into the late game, StB will sometimes tap for 7 or 10 and be a mini-sweeper with Exile.
Stratus Dancer seems good against Control and Mono-Red and not bad against Jeskai.
I'm trying the 3 Dismal Backwater, but I am not a huge fan of them over being able to play untapped basics. I may go back to 5/3 Island/Swamp
I like the logic behind the dragons you chose. As far as the comments on mana goes, normally I'd agree with you, but when playing 9 scry effects, and two anticipates, and suddenly not having to be nearly as picky about your mana, I'm going to test on 25 as I like the business density offered by it and I want to give Narset a chance, but if it proves problematic, I may push to 26. As far as Silence goes though, the issue I see is that I'd rather play a 3rd Crux there since they are a constant 5 mana to kill every one of their dudes and none of yours. Well, except in the mirror, when Ojutai isn't involved. I get that it can be spot removal, but if you're having to pay the cost of crux to hit more than one target, wouldn't you rather just play the 3rd Crux there? Especially because you don't have Ugin or Elspeth as board resetters in your list, just the double crux.
I'd probably drop Prerogative to play the 4th dig. Esper Dragons is still a relevant deck, but it's not quite as rampant as the CoCo decks and Abzan decks continue to evolve, Deathmist and Den Protector are the hot cards right now and you must be able to answer them. Since you play a lot more land, the 4th dig I think will help you filter through that and find what you need better than the occasional prerogative not getting countered, especially since Ashiok is good in the mirror anyway. The double Ashioks are also good against Abzan as well, so you see some maindeck hate for those matchups anyway. A better way to improve the mirror if you cut prerogative, is to add another Haven. If you wind up in the mirror and are playing more Havens, my money is on you. They also offer a certain amount of mana fixing by ensuring you have Ojutai's white, as your deck is base blue/black. I would consider trading the Urborg out, once you get BB online, you're done needing a whole lot more unless there's a late game silence, at which point you probably have it anyway. I guess it lets your fetches tap for mana, but with Dig Through Time, they're usually better off getting cracked to thin and then serve as fuel for Dig. Unless your life total is super low, which against the mirror means you're about to lose soon anyway. The other land I would consider swapping for it is a Caves of Koilos, because no one likes having two painlands in play. It hurts. And you're already playing Thoughtseize to boot.
Lastly, when was the last time you complained about drawing a Foul-Tongue? I'd push this count to 4. It's a stupid good card if you've got the Dragons to support it, which you do. (There's something else, Haven helps you keep Scorn and Foul-Tongue online). Not sure what you want to cut, but if it were me, I would look to either the pair of Thoughtseize and play the 4th invocation and a Murderous Cut, or the Silence the Believers. Of course, then I'd feel like you'd want to find another sweeper-esque effect, and I don't actually think a 3rd Crux would be my choice.
Again, I dig the "hate on the cool kids" Ashiok package as a 2x and I like your Dragon split, but I don't think you'll see as many Dragon mirrors so I consider the cards targeting them to be less relevant. Also, every deck seems to be getting better except Jeskai, I don't think you'll see them as much anymore either.
Still, your meta is entirely unknown to me, so your decisions may have more reasoning behind them, plus I forgot that Silence exiles, so I look forward to seeing you test with Silence.
Doublepost, but for a reason: Tested deck this evening. 25 lands seems fine but I think 26 would also be acceptable depending on your preference. The balance seems right as well. Beat the crap out of mono-green devotion, the deck handled the deathmist/den protector engine well, in addition to beating Whisperwood and Genesis Hydras.
Also played Abzan aggro. I misplayed, about to stabilize after hacking through 2 Siege Rhinos, a Fleecemane, two Sorins and their vampires, and a Wingmate Roc, Seige Rhino #3 finally got me, and if I'd tapped differently, it wouldn't have. Oh well, sometimes you die to 3 Siege Rhinos. Dragonlord Silumgar however did awesome not by being cast, but by being revealed to Silumgar's Scorn. Opponent had to severely alter the way he played around that card. List seems promising so far. Not had a chance to utilize Narset yet, but that may change. 'Board seems solid. Might choose to play a second Utter End out of the board to further assist dealing with 'walkers. One other note, I accidentally played the deck with Dissipates instead of Dissolves, and was pretty pleased with the results. There's a lot of crap in the format right now most people do not like coming back to haunt them later. I might just keep playing 'em.
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I don't think "defence defence defence" is what this deck does. This deck uses removal and countermagic to buy time until a bid beater (Ojutai, Ugin, the Silumgars) comes down and then beats your face in. This is a deck that wants to be the control in the early game, but really beats down mid/late game. So yeah, it plays draw-go in the early game, but not because it wants to lock your opponent out of playing (like the original draw go decks) but, rather, because it is buying time until it goes fully beatdown on the opponent.
I think that in the spectrum Agrro----- Midrange------Control this deck is definitely more controlling that the big abzan decks for sure, but there are some decks that are even more controlling (like Cuneo's UW or Sullivan's UB).
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I gotta know how to beat mono red/atarka sleigh. The only times I've ever won is due to my opponent stumbling/having a god type hand for the matchup.
The matchup feels so terrible for me that I've considered just ignoring the matchup and just hope to dodge it and side for the other decks
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Narset Transcendent
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
4 Dissolve
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Ultimate Price
2 Utter End
2 Crux of Fate
5 Island
2 Swamp
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Silence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Arashin Cleric
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Virulent Plague
2 Negate
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Drown in Sorrow
Went 3-1 at FNM beating 2 Jeskai mid range and abzan mid range, losing to burn and beating burn in top 8 to split top 4.
Jeskai midrange isn't a huge deal now that I have the full 4 Foul Tongue after board.
Abzan midrange match was pretty annoying after board with him boarding in 12 cards. 4 Duress, 4 Foul-Tongue Invocation, 4 Den Protector. He had 4 Thoughtseize main. Ended up getting him with a Silumgar I got back with Haven of the Spirit Dragon with less then 10 cards in my deck after he killed 3 of my dragons, Tasigur milled one and he killed both Tasigur. Maybe Risen Executioner will help against him. Although they are kinda bad against Rhino.
I might try Risen Executioner in place of Tasigur next week. I like Tasigur except when Tasigur mills one of my dragons. Expecting more Esper Dragons in the future but I only saw the same 3 of us playing it and two of us played it week one. Not so sure though since Tasigur is good all the time out of the board while Risen Executioner only seems good against control.
Haven of the Spirit dragon i will probably cut. It was bad for mana twice and I actually used it once against the Abzan player who boarded in 4 Foul Tongue.
Still have not run into Megamorph Abzan. There is not a lot of esper dragons at my FNM. Maybe Silence the Believers or Perilous Vault is worth running if Megamorph Abzan is popular?
@Fabiano's list
The Gerard Fabiano list looks interesting.
I might switch to the Fabiano 3 Ojutai and 1 Silumgar split. Ojutai's card advantage is amazing but Silumgar's always on hex proof is nice to not always require a counter for protection and the Silumgar -1/-1 trigger is really amazing against mono red.
As much as I like Ashiok and taking the opponent's creatures I have not been too impressed by Ashiok in Esper. Running Ashiok require's playing Thoughtseize to clear the way and I don't really like Thoughtseize with lots of fast aggro at my local friday night magic. Also with Esper you do not have any quick blockers to defend Ashiok. Sultai had Wayfinder to find land and block for a turn which was enough to protect Ashiok.
Self Inflicted Wound seems too tailored for Abzan. Do not like it being a sorcery either. Think I prefer Foul-Tongue since it can gain you life and is an instant.
atm I have a 2/2 split with ojutai and silumgar (ugin+2 havens) and its been working fairly well for me
Ive noticed alot of decks are starting to go to 3 or even 4 ojutai with a few silumgars thrown in.
Dissolve is a nod to the mirror if nothing else.
I been running 4 Dissolve, 4 Silumgar's Scorn with 2 Ojutai and 2 Silumgar since day 1 and it works for me. 8 Counters is really good. Considering a move to 3 Ojutai and 1 Silumgar though but the 2/2 split has been good so far. I only run 1 Haven because I am more heavy into white for Utter End and Arashin Cleric.
If the Megamorph deck shows up more I think replacing some of the Dissolves with Dissipate might be a good idea. Although Scry one dissolve is really nice, the exile on Dissipate if countering Raptor sounds good.
I agree with this build of 4 Dig Through Time, 4 Dissolve, 4 Hero's Downfall, 4 Silumgar's Scorn. These cards are just so good. 4 Dragons works except against mono red I think you want more to be certain you have one to gain life off of Foul-Tongue and you want to jam one on 5 or 6 and win before they can burn you out.
Lost to jeskai tokens round 1, GR dragons round 3, Abzan aggro round 6, and then mardu something round 7
Beat GR dragons in Round 2, GW devotion in round 5, mono black aggro round 3
I'm not sure 3 ojutai is what I want. Constantly I'd have one and then draw another when I didn't want it at the time. I might go back to 1 silumgar and 2 ojutai or 2/2 split
I'm also thinking of abandoning the dragons all together and going a super friends list. Something like 4 ashiok, 3 elspeth, 2 sorin, 2 narset, a Lilianna, and maybe an ugin.
Cut the scorns/foul tongues and just go a tap out slam threat type style.
Probably isn't good but I'm goign to give it a go at my shops next small casual event
I ran a deck kinda like what you described at FNM the other night and went 4-1. Made some modifications to the deck, but this is where I'm currently at. It's a control deck at heart, but can very much play a sort-of midrange game, and it switches from defense to offense on the drop of a dime.
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Narset Transcendent
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Other Spells (25)
4 Raise the Alarm
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Devouring Light
4 Dissolve
2 Utter End
2 End Hostilities
3 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Tranquil Cove
1 Temple of Deceit
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Surge of Righteousness
2 Negate
2 Erase
3 Merciless Executioner
3 Frost Walker
1 Ojutai's Command
This deck spawned from me liking to cast a massive Secure the Wastes at the end of my opponent's turn, but in this deck, I wanted to make that the focus, and following it up with a Sorin is just nasty. Raise the Alarm gives the deck an amazing matchup against mono-red, and lets you start putting pressure on your opponent early if they're going slow. This deck just laughs at removal like Foul-Tongue Invocation and Roast, and with the popularity of those types of cards, tokens is pretty well positioned. You do have to be aware of Virulent Plague and Bile Blight, but just don't spam too many of those token producers at once, and have those counters and Erases on standby.
I saw devouring light and my initial reaction was "why not downfall?" and then i was like omg if that's for that deck that's genius.
I've never been a fan of devouring light personally but that deck is so bad for the dragons/control lists that I'm considering it
No downfall because this deck is only lightly splashing black, hence the utter ends.
Beat Jeskai Tokens 2-1, Abzan Aggro 2-0 lost to Mega Morph 1-2.
Lost for first time against the raptor/den protector deck. Lost 2-1. Managed to get a win out of an early ojutai and utter end his raptor followed by countering every more or attempt to kill ojutai. One game I just got stuck on 3 lands and the other game got ran over with mega morphs, since didn't draw enough counters and only hit one utter end.
Also lost to this Rally the Ancestors combo deck 2-1 with Enchantment creatures and the creature that your opponent loses 1 life for each enchantment that enters play as well as the devotion haste creature so you would lose a bunch of life and if that didn't kill you the creatures attacking with haste would kill you. I did get him one game but then he brought in the discard and ran me out of counters the other two.
I am considering trying Dissipate instead of Dissolve, maybe a 1 of Silence the Believers with side board Perilous Vaults for these two match ups if they become more popular.
@Systematicpro
Have not tried the 3 Ojutai but I like the 2 Ojutai, 2 Silumgar the Drifting Death split.
I actually like Sultai if you want to play a Super friends list. Wayfinder provides a chump blocker to protect your planeswalkers and finds you land and fuels delver. Garruk is pretty awesome in killing planeswalkers or creatures or making 3/3 beasts.
I do not like Devouring Light because of the sorcery speed and enchantment removal becomes a blow out. Your better off with Dissipate, Silence the Believers and Utter End exiling their card out right without letting them have the chance of getting it back.
I ran into my first Deathmist raptor/den protector deck last week. The net deckers are starting to show up now. Seems to be more Esper Dragons too this past week but didn't play any of them.
@megaman125
Interesting deck.
How has Ashiok been with no Thoughtseize to clear the way? Raise the Alarm probably serves well to provide chump blockers to protect Ashiok.
I do not like token strategies because I like using Virulent Plague sideboard to improve my Jeskai Tokens and mono red match ups.
Devouring Light is an instant and enchantment removal does nothing to it. I might make the switch from Dissolve to Dissipate after not exiling that Deathmist or Dragon with a counter ends up costing me a game, until then I like the scry too much.
I have thought about Sultai for superfriends because I do like Garruk. However, I'd be sacrificing the token angle and I'm not willing to do that. The deck plays like a midrange control, attacking from multiple angles until 1 or more end up overwhelming my opponent. With Sultai superfriends, it's just one angle (planeswalkers). With that in mind, I don't feel the need to have Thoughtseize because I don't need to clear the way for Ashiok, since Ashiok is not the main focus, it's just one of multiple angles I'm attacking with. Tokens died? Spam more tokens. Tokens still died? Use Ashiok/Narset. Those not working? How about planesawlkers that spam tokens, or start threatening to work towards ultimates on 4 different planeswalkers. Board not favorable? End Hostilities, then spam tokens again.
The Ashioks were in the sideboard for FNM, and I was running Spear of Heliod, but I found myself not really needing or caring about the spear since I had 3 Sorin, and ended up siding them out in every matchup I played, whether it was aggro or control. After the Ashioks performed well, I decided to try them out in the main. (Originally, I also had Ugin in the deck, but that was just... not really needed).
As for Virulent Plague, I do have Erases in the sideboard, but I think more people are going to use their sideboard slots on Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow because those cards are not only good against tokens, they're good against a wider variety of threats that Virulent Plague doesn't touch.
I haven't seen anyone play Jeskai tokens at my LGS, so I have no idea how that matchup would go, but I would imagine it would involve lots of tokens on both sides, Utter Ending/countering Ascendency, and wiping the board should I fall behind on the token making, then spam tokens with Elspeth.
I was thinking Banishing Light which is an enchantment. Sorry. There are not too many creatures that sit around and be annoying with out attacking in current standard so that looks like a good option other then it costs 1WW. I prefer Hero's Downfall because it hits planeswalkers too but you are heavy white.
I really like Ashiok against midrange and control. Not very good against agressive decks. Considering sideboarding Ashiok again but finding space is tough.
Jeskai tokens is really about if they can resolve Accendancy without you having an Utter End for it. If they don't you can easily clear their tokens with Drown in Sorrow. Virulent Plague just kills off Jeskai Tokens if resolved so I board 1 Virulent Plague. It is very good against mono red and their tokens as well.
Say you have a big creature under ashiok and perilous vault on the field
Would you down ashiok, maintain priority and crack vault to have the big dude on an empty board?
ive done this a few times and sometime's it's worked out (obv ashioks not on an empty board)
Typically i like to crack vault at the end of my opponents turn so im looking at a clear board when i untap, even if it means taking some damage
Oh ok, yeah, there's a lot of light cards in standard right now, Banishing Light, Devouring Light, Pillar of Light. The 3 mana can be a bit much for only hitting creatures, but I can use my tokens to convoke it, which opens a handful of possibilities, like playing a Raise the Alarm, blocking with the tokens, and casting Devouring Light in my opponent's attack step, or tapping out for some other spell while still having "mana" up for spot removal. I can certainly see why you would want Hero's Downfall, as my build only really has Utter End to hit Planeswalkers. With instant tokens and a possible pump, planeswalkers that are played without some sort of protection don't provide me with too much hassle. I'm also not running downfall because double black is too much on my mana base, hence my choice to go with Utter End.
Ashiok can be ok for me against aggro decks, since I can spam tokens that block or trade with my opponent's stuff, giving me time to use Ashiok to start playing stolen creatures.
4x Dismal Backwater
2x Flooded Strand
2x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
3x Temple of Deceit
3x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Temple of Silence
Spells
2x Anticipate
2x Crux of Fate
3x Dig Through Time
4x Dissolve
2x Divination
3x Foul-Tongue Invocation
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Jace's Ingenuity
4x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Ultimate Price
2x Utter End
4x Dragonlord Ojutai
1x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
3x Arashin Cleric
2x Bile Blight
2x Dragonlord's Prerogative
2x Negate
2x Self-Inflicted Wound
1x Stratus Dancer
2x Virulent Plague
1x Ultimate Price
I've found my deck has pretty good game against most of the format, and in particular I do really well in the Esper Dragons mirror match. Plague is in the side for Jeskai tokens, might be better served as other cards depending on the meta of the event you expect.
Utter End in the main has been wonderful.
I'll swear by 4 Ojutai. Yes, sometimes you draw too many and it's the pits. But in a deck with so much filtering, that's very rare. Ojutai dies all the time, especially post board, and having the option to trade with it when needed is wonderful. I'm also not as obligated to use my counter spells to protect Ojutai when I run 4 and 2 Haven's as I might be with 3 Ojutai and 1 Haven, instead I can use them to grind the game out longer.
My plan against RDW is to lose game 1 and have a 50/50 or 55/45 game 2 and 3. If I just wanted to fix that match, I'd run more white sources and run 4 Arashin Cleric with 2 Ojutai's Command.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
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#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Narset Transcendent
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Other Spells (25)
4 Raise the Alarm
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Devouring Light
4 Dissipate
2 Utter End
2 End Hostilities
3 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Tranquil Cove
1 Temple of Deceit
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Surge of Righteousness
2 Negate
2 Erase
3 Merciless Executioner
3 Frost Walker
1 Ojutai's Command
I did decide to swap the Dissolves for Dissipates. Went 4-0-1 at FNM last night with this, taking 1st place. Here's a quick match breakdown.
Round 1 vs. U/W Altar of the Brood mill combo. 2-0
He wasn't happy when I Devouring Lighted his Ensoul Artifacted Altar... twice. Planeswalkers just kinda ran him over.
Round 2 vs. Mardu Midrange. 2-1
He curved out with Seeker, Hordeling Outburst, and 2 Butchers. I countered the first butcher, but the second one brought me down to 3 life. I played an End Hostilities, but he had a Lightning Strike in hand. Game 2, he had the same start as game 1, but this time I was better equiped to deal with it. Elspeth and Sorin took over the board, and he had no answer for mass tokens with mass lifegain. Game 3 he got stuck on 2 land for a while, and by the time he found more, I had Sorin on the board with some tokens, which was followed up with more tokens.
I don't recall exactly how I sideboarded this match, but I think I brought in 2 Surge of Righteousness and 2 Negates for 2 Devouring Light and 2 Dissipate, but I may have removed Anticipates.
Round 3 vs. Abzan Aggro. 2-0
Game 1 he was curving out nicely with Fleecemane Lion, Anafenza (which met a counter), and Sorin. He got a few hits in with the Lion until I Utter Ended it after he played Sorin and pumped. Next turn he made a Vampire. An End of turn Secure the Wastes plus my follow up Sorin eliminated his Sorin. He downfalled Sorin, but a Dig Through Time got me another Sorin and Elspeth. The Sorin met another Downfall, and so did Elspeth after blowing up a Rhino he just played. I drew into a 2nd Elspeth with stuck around and won me the game with a bunch of tokens.
I sided out Anticipates for Frost Walkers. Don't recall what else I took out, but I remember bringing in Ojutai's Command as well.
Game 2 was kinda of a blow out. He had to mulligan down to 5, and his first play was a turn 4 Rhino. By the time he got that, I had a Frost Walker and some tokens out. I dropped a Sorin and pumped, swinging with the Frost Walker. After thinking about it, he did trade his Rhino. After that, I spent the rest of the game with 1 for 1 removal on his guys until tokens + Sorin won.
Round 4 vs. Abzan control. 2-0
Game 1 he Thoughtseized me taking my Secure the Wastes. I followed up with a Raise the Alarm while he played Courser of Cruphix. We traded damage for a turn before he left his Courser up to block. I noticed he was getting a lot of lands with the Courser, and with another land on top, I Devouring Lighted the Courser when he blocked my token. We traded some cards 1 for 1 for a while, with me just hoping to ride him out. A Dig got me more fuel. A secure the wastes followed up with Sorin brought him to 4 life, and Nissa wasn't enough of a blockade for me.
Sideboard: -3 Anticipate, -2 End Hostilities, -2 Devouring Light, +3 Frost Walker, +1 Ojutai's Command, +1 Erase, +2 Negate
Game 2 I got some tokens off of Raise the Alarm, and we traded Ashioks and Downfalls for a couple turns. I got a Narset to stick, then a Sorin while I counted his stuff. He attempted to cast an Ugin the turn before Narset's ultimate, and it was Dissipated.
Round 5 vs. RDW. 1-2
We IDed, but played the match for fun. I was on the play game 1 and had to mulligan down to 5, keeping a hand with 3 land, a Sorin, and Raise the Alarm. I couldn't ask for a better 5 card hand for this matchup. A turn 2 Raise the Alarm traded with a Lightning Berserker and Denizen, and a turn 3 Secure the Wastes traded with 2 Satyrs while he played a 2nd Eidolon. I followed up with a Sorin, making a vampire, while he burned them both, taking 8 damage in the process. A dig got me Secure the Wastes and Elspeth. Secure for 4 traded with his 2 Eidolons, and I played Elspeth with 5 life remaining, then came back and won.
Sideboard: -4 Dissipate, -2 Utter End, -1 Narset +4 Surge of Righteousness, +2 Negate, +1 Ojutai's Command.
Game 2 he Twin Bolted my Raise the Alarm tokens before they could block, and I was sad. Things got worse as I started missing land drops and he was able to overrun me, despite having every 2 mana card I could want in my opening hand. Game 3 was much the same with me missing land drops.
Overall the deck ran great, and I plan on taking it to a PPTQ next Saturday. I will swap Surge of Righteousness for Arashin Cleric in the sideboard. I feel I really need to go for a creature gameplan against red decks, plus the cleric has more synergy with Ojutai's Command and Sorin.
Esper Dragons players have been slow to innovate, and I suspect that is because the focus has been on "I player Esper over UB because of Dragonlord Ojutai." All responses have been driven by two things: staying in "Esper = UBw for Ojutai" mindset and Reid Duke's "Win the mirror first" perspective.
The meta seems to require going in the other direction.
Embrace Esper over UB splashing w
We need to expand the role of white mana, especially for Utter End. 2 Utter End in the main allow us to move to 2 Hero's Downfall safely while providing an answer to every non-land, non-hexproof, non-Stormbreath Dragon permanent, with exile. This is where I make the pitch that exile and non-creature, non-land permanent removal are increasingly important.
I have personally retreated from Narset for the moment because she isn't doing enough in this meta. Thank you Thoughtseize, you big, fat jerk.
Is there anything else in White that we might consider? You tell me. I'm not ready to go Ojutai's Command + Arashin Clericbecause I think it is a bit too focused on Mono-Red and not good enough against Abzan.
Win the Mirror vs. Win the Aggro Match
Reid Duke, all around amazing player and apparently super nice guy, made a point that was great two weeks ago, but I think it is wrong now. You used to want to win Game 1 in the mirror more than you wanted to win Game 1 against anything else. That is a passed moment. If you lose Game 1 to Abzan Aggro, GW Co-Co, Abzan Megamorph, or Mono-R/Atarka Aggro, chances are you lose one of the other two games to them as well. On the other hand, in a land of control decks with finishers that can take over a game and limited lifegain for control, you can play 3 games without a draw.
The more mirror-centric Esper deck will likely beat you game 1, but after sideboarding it is a game of skill and chance. On the other hand, if you constantly lose Game 1 to Abzan and Red, you are going to be out of the tournament far too quickly.
Other changes
Ultimate Price is actually quite weak at the moment, except versus Mono-Red and Mono-Green, and it is only better than Bile Blight in the latter. Better two Hero's Downfall in the side than UP. Better the fourth Foul-Tongue Invocation.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is strong against everything except mono-red. Run at least 1 and maybe 2 in the main.
As exile improves, so does Perilous Vault. It not only griefs the graveyard game, but it forces players to slow down. I'm not suggesting getting rid of a Crux of Fate yet, but you should have 1 PV somewhere in your 75. Also, adjust your playstyle accordingly. Don't slam multiple dragons if you need to play a PV. Play like a control player, not a fake-control-really-mid-range player.
Dissipate is a pretty good card. If you are only playing 2 Dissolve, maybe the scry counts for less than exile... It is also good in the mirror because it makes Haven worse.
Thoughtseize might be better out of the side in the mirror than in the main against the other decks. They are typically too threat-heavy and 2 life is a significant loss. Then again, taking away a Den Protector is pretty good too.
Side Bar aka Rant
All the Abzan decks are mid-range. ALL of them. ALL OF THEM. Don't be fooled.
Aggro decks win turn 4 with some combination of creatures and reach (aka burn and/or pump), with no concern for interacting with you. If you ask your opponent's deck, "Do you interact with me?", an actual Aggro deck will respond, "What is this "interaction" of which you speak? Oh, and you're dead." Mono-R, RDW, Mono-W Humans and Bant Auras were all relatively recent aggro decks.
Abzan Aggro and Megamorph aka Mid-Range Beatdown
Largely the same deck, FWIW.
1. They interact quite a bit with the opponent: Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, Abzan Charm.
2. They play planeswalkers.
3. Reliance on CMC 4 and 5 creatures.
4. Designed to win in the mid-game (round 5-8).
5. They can make use of 6+ mana.
6. Draw spells. 'Nuff said.
Verdict? Seriously? Not aggro. Even less aggro than GR Ramp was and ramp decks are classic mid-range beatdown.
Abzan Control
This is a harder case to make, but I will make it.
1. Way too many creatures. Control decks rarely run more than 6 wincons because everything else is interaction.
2. The deck seeks to incrementally improve its position over yours, especially on the board, but also in the hand (think Thoughtseize plus a little draw.) For example, board-wipe is a last resort, not a staple. Elspeth mostly ought to make three creatures and jam your opponent up, allowing you, again, to progress your board. Control keeps the field clean and establishes inevitability. Even Esper Dragons plays that game, thanks to hexproof creatures and a ton of removal/counter.
3. No counterspells. Some control decks play more, some play less, and once in a great while midrange plays a couple (usually some odd Blue Jund-style hybrid or RUG), but it's a staple piece of control decks.
4. Following on point 2, not enough draw.
5. Follow up on 1 and 2, the playstyle of this deck wants to use mana efficiently every turn to remove a threat or play a threat. If this deck isn't tapped out, it probably didn't do something right or it is stuck without a play and is not happy.
This deck is far closer to Mono-B Mid-Range from the last standard than anyone would like to admit.
Verdict? Not Control. Not really even close.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Narset is maybe my most questionable choice, but every time I look at this list, I see so many things I want to rebound, I see a ton of scrying to setup the top card of the deck, and I always see Narset coming on 6 freaking loyalty for 4 mana, so she's getting tried out as a 1x. The first time I rebound Foul Tongue is probably gonna feel really good. Aaanyway, I'll see how it does tomorrow night. I feel like RDW is a problem, but I also feel like every deck feels that way to an extent. The four foul tongues and the Last Breaths, hopefully will make for a better match than it seems on paper.
4 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Deceit
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
4 Island
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Flooded Strand
Creatures
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
Spells
1 Valorous Stance
1 Utter End
4 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Murderous Cut
2 Last Breath
4 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Dissolve
4 Dig Through Time
2 Anticipate
2 Crux of Fate
1 Perilous Vault
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Narset Transcendent
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Virulent Plague
4 Surge of Righteousness
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Radiant Purge
1 Perilous Vault
2 Dragonlord's Prerogative
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
I like the ideas.
Elspeth is a good idea because she does jam up the board and it forces them to play more on the board. I don't know that I want her main deck, but out of the side, very much so. I like her better than Vault because clogging the board is better with our deck than wiping it.
I am going with 3 Dragonlord Ojutai, 1 Dragonlord Silumgar and 1 Silumgar, Drifting Death because being able to have three dragons on the board is quite good. Also, each of their abilities is valuable.
Few critical notes:
25 lands is too little. You need at least 27, and maybe 28 with that many 5-8 drops. I would drop Ugin and Narset for lands.
Ashiok is better than Elspeth Game 1 against Control and still strong against GW Co-Co and the Abzan builds. Exiling creatures is good. Exiling their hand and graveyard is excellent. Ashiok is the best way to control the graveyard available to control.
I'm somewhere around here:
4 island
2 swamp
2 caves of koilos
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Temple of deceit
4 Temple of enlightenment
3 Dismal Backwater
Creatures 5
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Counterspells 7
3 Dissipate
4 Silumgar's Scorn
Targeted Removal 10
3 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
3 Foul-tongue invocation
Hand Destruction 2
2 Thoughtseize
Sweeper 2
2 Crux of Fate
Draw 6
3 Dig Through Time
2 Anticipate
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
3 drown in sorrow
2 Thoughtseize
2 Stratus Dancer
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 negate
1 Silence the Believers
1 Bile Blight
1 Virulent plague
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
It's a little wonky as sideboards go, but Silence is suddenly really strong and because we are beating mid-range decks that play into the late game, StB will sometimes tap for 7 or 10 and be a mini-sweeper with Exile.
Stratus Dancer seems good against Control and Mono-Red and not bad against Jeskai.
I'm trying the 3 Dismal Backwater, but I am not a huge fan of them over being able to play untapped basics. I may go back to 5/3 Island/Swamp
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I'd probably drop Prerogative to play the 4th dig. Esper Dragons is still a relevant deck, but it's not quite as rampant as the CoCo decks and Abzan decks continue to evolve, Deathmist and Den Protector are the hot cards right now and you must be able to answer them. Since you play a lot more land, the 4th dig I think will help you filter through that and find what you need better than the occasional prerogative not getting countered, especially since Ashiok is good in the mirror anyway. The double Ashioks are also good against Abzan as well, so you see some maindeck hate for those matchups anyway. A better way to improve the mirror if you cut prerogative, is to add another Haven. If you wind up in the mirror and are playing more Havens, my money is on you. They also offer a certain amount of mana fixing by ensuring you have Ojutai's white, as your deck is base blue/black. I would consider trading the Urborg out, once you get BB online, you're done needing a whole lot more unless there's a late game silence, at which point you probably have it anyway. I guess it lets your fetches tap for mana, but with Dig Through Time, they're usually better off getting cracked to thin and then serve as fuel for Dig. Unless your life total is super low, which against the mirror means you're about to lose soon anyway. The other land I would consider swapping for it is a Caves of Koilos, because no one likes having two painlands in play. It hurts. And you're already playing Thoughtseize to boot.
Lastly, when was the last time you complained about drawing a Foul-Tongue? I'd push this count to 4. It's a stupid good card if you've got the Dragons to support it, which you do. (There's something else, Haven helps you keep Scorn and Foul-Tongue online). Not sure what you want to cut, but if it were me, I would look to either the pair of Thoughtseize and play the 4th invocation and a Murderous Cut, or the Silence the Believers. Of course, then I'd feel like you'd want to find another sweeper-esque effect, and I don't actually think a 3rd Crux would be my choice.
Again, I dig the "hate on the cool kids" Ashiok package as a 2x and I like your Dragon split, but I don't think you'll see as many Dragon mirrors so I consider the cards targeting them to be less relevant. Also, every deck seems to be getting better except Jeskai, I don't think you'll see them as much anymore either.
Still, your meta is entirely unknown to me, so your decisions may have more reasoning behind them, plus I forgot that Silence exiles, so I look forward to seeing you test with Silence.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Also played Abzan aggro. I misplayed, about to stabilize after hacking through 2 Siege Rhinos, a Fleecemane, two Sorins and their vampires, and a Wingmate Roc, Seige Rhino #3 finally got me, and if I'd tapped differently, it wouldn't have. Oh well, sometimes you die to 3 Siege Rhinos. Dragonlord Silumgar however did awesome not by being cast, but by being revealed to Silumgar's Scorn. Opponent had to severely alter the way he played around that card. List seems promising so far. Not had a chance to utilize Narset yet, but that may change. 'Board seems solid. Might choose to play a second Utter End out of the board to further assist dealing with 'walkers. One other note, I accidentally played the deck with Dissipates instead of Dissolves, and was pretty pleased with the results. There's a lot of crap in the format right now most people do not like coming back to haunt them later. I might just keep playing 'em.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave