This was created after reading the previous Bug thread and some of the choices were out of stubbornness on my part. AS you can see by the dissolves MB with no BB in the main, definitely contributed to my loss in top 4.
Edit: Extinguish all hope is not the Board clear we are looking for. Most mid range decks are running their fair share of PW and Coursers.:P
-Kiora was a four mana explore most of the time, I agree on removing her almost entirely from the deck.
-Dissolves were also bad MB except against my R1 opponent Jeskai Tempo. Turn 3-4 we are building up our board with PW's and Courser's and by turn 5-6 my opponent already has a threat in play that i need to deal with while dissolve rots in my hand.
-3 sphinx seemed liked a bit much with 2 dig through time in the deck. I'm considering going down to 2 sphinx.
-Dig through time was the all star of the deck, whenever i cast it i won. I'm hesitant on going to 3 since no one else agrees with that but gosh darn i love this card.
-4th thoughtseize is excessive.
- I sided in disdainful stroke in against everything I played except mono-b. Its not dead against any deck in the format and does what i thought dissolve would do against aggro/tempo. Countering their finishers.
My SB was thrown together to cover all my bases.
The main problem with this control list as opposed to UW control from last standard is that it wins so slow and by not as much. I only felt safe attacking with 1 sphinx or courser at a time.
I agree that most of the planeswalkers outside of ashiok are kind of underwhelming. One distributing issue that somebody else brought up is how slow this deck is. I have also cut dig through time from my list. Without running a I win card or a card that catches you up from behind, playing dig as a 1 or 2 of really does not justify its inclusion in my opinion.
This is exactly why I play 2x, Ashiok, 2x Kiora, 1x Nissa, 1x Liliana, 1x Garruk in the main, and only 2 Prognostic Sphinx. More wincons..and Kiora/Nissa/Liliana can potentially close the game in a hurry. I actually tried one of Kamahl's builds before rotation and while I did feel in control in most of the games I played, the games were just taking to long to close out. As you play more you certainly get quicker at making decisions and working through the game, but I also prefer the ability to finish the game faster more consistently. My build is almost more geared towards a BGx Rock build with x being blue.
Back when I ran Polukranos, who was pretty awesome in the deck but weak to removal, I was able to close games quickly with him.
Prognostic Sphinx is slower, but does such a great job of "fixing" your cards and is a great blocker. Nissa can go berserk in games you get ahead with the removal as you can close out games very quickly.
Liliana Vess shreds your opponents hands, and typically requires to be attacked. However she has a high loyalty count and is not quickly killed. I think more people get focused on the fact that she can tutor and their isn't a "silver bullet" in the deck for her. I just take cards from my opponent to weaken their game plan and use your tutor if there is something I have to have now. Her ultimate comes up very fast and typically is a game winner.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave can ultimate pretty quickly herself but as it has been discussed she typically is not enough against some of the decks, most notably green...although Green can be handled if you have her and Downfall's/charms to maintain them at 1 "threat" at a time...the problem is Genesis Hydra is typically putting out threats at a rate of 2-1...or their mana ramping is. I find myself using Kiora much more now as a card/ramp engine, and she is still very good at that.
Garruk, Apex Predator is just so powerful and can do so much. It's wonderful to kill of a 10/10 hydra for the life to stay in the game. If I didn't have Kiora to help ramp into him I'd probably not play him, at least mainboard...but as I do, he has the ability to win with the 3/3 deathtouch army. It isn't particularly fast, but by then this is hopefully putting your opponent into the concede territory.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver can just be another blistering fast trouble maker if it comes in early and for the right matchups. If it doesn't come out early though it is often your Sultai Charm fodder in card draw.
Also, Dig Through Time is totally amazing. The best two cards of 7 are more consistently going to be better than the top 3...and this is usually cast for somewhere in the 2-4 mana range. Jace's Ingenuity is always 5 mana, and Divination only gets you the top two for basically the same cost. I really want to put 3 in the deck, not b/c that means I'm going to play 3, but because I really want 1 almost every game, and I'm not typically going to be disappointed with a second. Just think hard before cracking your Polluted Delta for a swamp...most games you'll need to be cracking it for an Island instead.
Not really sure if you are agreeing with my statement on planewalkers or not?
As to Dig, I understand and agree that 2 of your top 7 cards will be better than your top 2 or 3...My point is that if you are behind most lists don't run anything that will catch you up, if your ahead there is nothing in any lists that closes the game out faster which allows your opponent usually a turn or 2 of draws to get back into the game, if the game is even then getting a counter spell or removal is about the best you can hope for, which I find rather underwhelming.
I was agreeing that the deck is often to slow. I play more walkers to speed the game up, at least compared to Kamahl's build. I don't think the walkers collectively are underwhelming. All walkers are different, they have their strengths and weaknesses and so it is how you use them and build around them. My deck's design is to buy the time needed to get a couple walkers on the board giving me recurring card advantage that becomes overwhelming. Comparatively it is still slow versus aggro, but it isn't as slow as true control.
Kind of surprised that so many people are so down on Kiora. Maybe I just need to play with the deck more to see how inconsistent she is. In my experience though, she can quickly lock down the opponent if she isn't dealt with immediately. I know you're not typically supposed to evaluate walkers based on their ultimate, but I really think Kiora's is a real threat because of how quickly she reaches it and how quickly the game is over once you start making krakens every turn. She's similar to Ashiok, in the sense that if we have the proper defenses both walkers just put the game out of reach for your opponent in the span of a few turns. She's awful from behind, but so is Ashiok.
I admit that I could be totally wrong here. I'm sure most of you have a lot more experience with this deck than I do. I'm just thinking out loud here to try and get a better understanding of this deck's strengths and weaknesses.
Also, I'm having a hard time figuring out whether to add Liliana Vess or Garruk, Apex Predator to the MB. I think Liliana is definitely underatted. Even in he worst case scenario you play her as a 5CMC tutor, which is by no means the worst thing you could be doing. I also like Garruk because of how good he is from behind and because of how quickly he can spiral out of control. I'm just worried about the 7CMC being too slow. Has anybody else found Garruk to be too slow?
Another creature I've been thinking about is Reaper of the Wilds. I'm not crazy about the card in this deck, but it's a solid body, a resilient threat, and will provide a huge amount of scry if it stays on the board.
It actually still matches up well with a decent number of the midrange fatties that are currently seeing play. At the very least, it can trade with any creature for a single black mana.
I've been hesitant to employ too many creatures in my list thus far, but I feel like this deck needs a couple more powerful midgame plays that don't simply involve either killing a creature or drawing cards. In some match ups, that's all you want to be doing, but in others, it's not. Matched up against another slow deck, I often don't cast anything outside of a Caryatid and/or Courser, maybe a Charm, until turn 4. While this is fine, I often think that if I could curve tap land, into Caryatid, into turn 3 Reaper, against similarly slow decks, that would be a very powerful opening, and one upon which we could build with our removal and other threats, bringing the game to an end much more swiftly (something that many many people in this thread have identified as a problem). Even a turn 4 or 5 Reaper into another threat like Nissa or Sphinx would add so much more pressure.
I think it deserves to be tested as a two of, certainly no more than that.
Has anybody already tested Reaper? If so, what were the results? If not, what do you think of it on paper?
I have. It replaced Polukranos for me originally. I've played with it a bunch, and it is good, but I'm starting to think that Prognostic Sphinx is better. The ability to protect itself the turn it is cast with a discard and no mana up is huge and something Reaper can't match. FWIW Sphinx also dodges all those "4 power" cards like Elsepth etc.
Something that has been testing exceedingly well with me, and that I have steadily moved from sideboard to main deck recently is Clever Impersonator. With all the big creatures and Planeswalkers in Standard right now, this guy has won me more games than anyone else. Being able to cleverly impersonate the opponent's Sarkhan only to swing in and kill him out of nowhere is just amazing. Copying opposing Sagu Maulers or Wingmate Rocs or Stormbreath Dragons or even your own Prognostic Sphinxes is just fantastic. Even copying any of your Planeswalkers immediately after you use their minus ability can be a supremely strong play as well.
The Sidisi deck with Reaper etc. is sort of a different list than what we're working with here. It's almost a self-mill delve plan, which we're not on. Sagu Mauler etc are very good in that list. It should probably be a different thread though. It's more a midrange disruptive plan than it is control.
So everyone hates Kiora, that's fine. Ashiok seems like you'd go 2-3 main and if you choose 2 then you'd shoot for 1 more in the sideboard.
Sultai Charm is perfect at 3 in any Sultai list, IMO.
Reaper of the Wilds is probably a decent sideboard card against blitz decks. It's not great against green though, and is almost useless against the Jeskai deck. Its only pro there is that they can't kill it.
There's a lot of tweaking to be done, but in a meta that's heavily Jeskai tempo, Rabblered, and other highly aggressive strategies I like it. The Silence the Believers are a recent addition and help tremendously against Sarkhan. Kiora as a 4 of is probably wrong, but she blanks Sarkhan and at worst is an Explore and some life gain. The Jace's are great card filter that can eventually time spiral, and they often do considering how much removal and defensive cards the deck has. If I stick all three main deck planeswalkers, I usually ultimate all of them just from their synergies.
Kamahl I've been testing your latest decklist and testing vs ross merriams gb devotion list and it's a pretty rough matchup. If they resolve and eidolon it's touch to outpace there card advantage.
I don't know how much that deck will even get played, though, but if your environment becomes crowded with a deck like that, we have sideboard tools available. For instance, if you see enough of that particular deck (and Mono Black Aggro with mostly enchantment creatures) to be concerned, then I think we can afford to squeeze 2 Back to Nature into the sideboard to blow them out.
I don't know how much that deck will even get played, though, but if your environment becomes crowded with a deck like that, we have sideboard tools available. For instance, if you see enough of that particular deck (and Mono Black Aggro with mostly enchantment creatures) to be concerned, then I think we can afford to squeeze 2 Back to Nature into the sideboard to blow them out.
^ This. Particularly if you are also running Dig Through Time to hunt for it. They need to build board before anything else which gives you 5-6 turns where you will basically go unmolested or only lose 4-6 life.
I don't think hat will help much. I was using Kamahl sideboard plans and without any real board wipes the green deck would spiral out of control first, plus eidolon giving him draw Lowe was horrible. The worst was if he had an eidolon into play and ramped into a genesis hydra, and played a 2nd eidolon hd draw two plus have a decent board state. I simple just didn't have enough removal or Aetherspouts to clear the board. I breve raaw perilous vault in 10 games running 2 of them.
I don't think hat will help much. I was using Kamahl sideboard plans and without any real board wipes the green deck would spiral out of control first, plus eidolon giving him draw Lowe was horrible. The worst was if he had an eidolon into play and ramped into a genesis hydra, and played a 2nd eidolon hd draw two plus have a decent board state. I simple just didn't have enough removal or Aetherspouts to clear the board. I breve raaw perilous vault in 10 games running 2 of them.
If GB Constellation is a problem in your tournament environment which you feel you need to solve, then Back to Nature is the perfect answer. It does take up sideboard spots but if you truly expect that not preparing for it will cause you to do badly then that's what you should look at.
On the other hand, if you just ran some games against it and determined that it's a bad matchup for us, then that's one thing. You may not face many of them in tournaments, and if you do, sorry.
The green decks and constellation decks both do spiral out of control very quickly. But they don't really keep a whole lot back. That's why we need x-for-1 removal. Aetherspouts is almost useless once they see it as they will only attack with one or two big guys and leave the rest back.
Extinguish All Hope is good against the green decks but awful against Constellation. Back to Nature murks your own Coursers.
You could play In Garruk's Wake but that's just insane without ramp.
Sultai Charm hits enchantments.
You could also put Phenax in your board and try to mill them out as they will be doing a fair job of it themselves already.
If you want to side in against all the GX variants, what do you prefer, Disdainful Stroke or Despise?
I prefer Disdainful Stroke in this matchup, because since they will belch forth their hand against us, you HAVE to have Despise/Thoughtseize turn 1-2 for it to be of any use at all. That means running a lot of them, and drawing some later as terrible topdecks. Stroke, however, is cheap to hold up mana for, it is good all game from about turn 3 onwards, and it counters pretty much everything that matters in that match (including Eidolon of Blossoms, actually). Domri Rade is gone, so every planeswalker they might cast, plus every significant creature, plus random Chord of Calling that Despise can't get in the first place, all fall to Disdainful Stroke.
Of course, the real question is...why not both? If you want to run Despise in the SB, and some number of Disdainful Stroke in the side as well, I think that is perfectly fine. They both do work in that matchup. Because if you can TS/Despise on 1 or 2 of the first three turns, then at least you get them topdecking sooner, so it can be worth having the dead draws later to ensure that you start with at least one.
Yesterday I got some free time and made it out for a mid-sized tournament (five rounds). This is the list I used:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Kiora the Crashing Wave
3 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bile Blight
1 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Silence the Believers
3 Dig Through Time
4 Opulent Palace
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Deceit
3 Yavimaya Coast
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Urborg
SB:
4 Pharika's Cure
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Sultai Charm
1 Silence the Believers
1 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Into the AEther
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Dead Drop
Got second place with Sultai midrange. Got a bye, then I beat Jeskai Tempo, Mardu Midrange, lost to another Sultai deck and then beat Boros tokens in the last round. Top 8 didn't want to play so we just split the prizes.
Jeskai Tempo was a mostly easy match-up. He got me into single digits multiple times but I had enough removal and blockers to stabilize. In one game he pulled an alpha strike that decimated his board to get me to three life. He then tried to burn me out for three consecutive turns but I countered all of his burn spells and eventually I just killed him. Mardu midrange was also easy. We were evenly matched in threats and removal, but I had Dig Through Time and he didn't. Eventually he would run out of resources and I would still have tons of gas. Boros Tokens beat me first game, but I sideboarded into tons of spot removal and Drown in Sorrows. Just straight-up wrecked his board position over and over. He had Ride Down to make blocking risky for me, but I had Negate to make that plan risky for him. The Sultai match-up wasn't actually a mirror, because he was more focused on ramp. I lost game one because I got stuck on three lands all game, then on game two I ground him down till I had two removal spells in hand and a Reaper + Bow of Nylea on board to his no cards in hand and two Caryatids + Rattleclaw Mystic. Thought I the advantage but he topdecked Villainous Wealth and cast it for five, hitting all three of my Prognostic Sphinx (!). I still almost beat that, but he started chaining his own Dig Through Times and I couldn't keep up.
Some observations:
* My "scry chaff to the bottom of the deck" plan worked great. I looked at the bottom of my deck after every game and it was full of low impact cards I scryed down with Reaper, Sphinx, Lands and Digs. Polluted Deltas would have shuffled those back in so it was the right call to pass on them.
* Dig Through Time is the most powerful card in Standard.
* Prognostic Sphinx is great against Mantis Rider.
* Reaper of the Wilds is great vs Siege Rhino and Polukranos.
* Kiora was already iffy because of Rabblemaster threatening her if she comes down with a -1, but now that Mantis Rider is popular she's even worse.
* It mostly seemed better to fall behind a bit with an extra tap land and come from behind with Drown in Sorrow than it is to try and keep pace with Fetches, Pain Lands and Bile Blights. You still need Bile Blights to kill Mantis Rider though.
* Drown in Sorrow is great vs ramp because it hits the ramp dorks and also Hornet Queen.
* Negate seemed better than Disdainful Stroke in general, but I felt I needed stroke as an additional way to combat Hornet Queen. Adding in the second Drown in Sorrow seems better to me now that I think of it.
* Bile Blight can be used as a combat trick.
* Bow of Nylea can stop Jeskai from burning you out, handle a Hornet Queen all by itself, let Sphinx eat a dragon and make your Coursers into real threats.
* It's fine to leave Courser in as the only creature they can kill. After sideboarding they can either leave their removal on the board and maybe you don't even draw a Courser, or they can take their removal out and if you draw Courser you can ride it all the way to value town. Worst case scenario you play it and they kill it, which is mostly an even trade.
* I tested with AEtherspouts, Nissa and Ashiok but they weren't winning me games so I left them on the bench. Maybe with the new version I can put them in the board.
For the sideboard I used most of the cards and was happy with them except for Dead Drop and Unravel the AEther. I never went up against any Sphinx/Reaper/Sagu Mauler decks so there was never a reason to bring in Dead Drop. As for Unravel I didn't bring it in against Jeskai because in game one I saw Gods Willing so I assumed it was the Jadine build. Game 2 he had Banishing Light so maybe I should have brought it in after all. I didn't see Keranos, though. Would you bring Unravel in vs Jeskai in that circumstance? It's possible that I had too many Pharika's Cure because I found myself cutting cards that seemed only slightly worse against aggro, and that Sultai Charm should have been in the main.
I am making a few minor changes based on my experiences. I think I will cut the Kioras from the main to fit the fourth Reaper and Sphinx. I was never sad to topdeck them and always felt like drawing more would be great. I will also cut two Bile Blights and the Silence the Believers for two Sultai Charms and the second Drown in Sorrow. For the mana base, I will cut two pain lands for two Scry lands. Especially against aggro, I felt that I was always drawing one or two Pain lands too many. To be honest I frequently felt that if I could draw one land that came into play untapped and all the rest came into play tapped, I would be fine. For my next event I am thinking to go with something like this:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Negate
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Bow of Nylea
3 Dig Through Time
4 Opulent Palace
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Deceit
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Urborg
SB:
4 ???
4 Pharika's Cure
2 Silence the Believers
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Into the AEther
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Dead Drop
Honestly I've been running a controlling constellation deck with these colors pre-rotation as a screw around deck but seems with the new set to have gotten better, much better
This deck has a nice mainboard solution to aggro with Doomwake Giant, which is also a finisher. Card draw engine in Eidolon can also close out games while we 1 for 1 with removal, biggest problem is the turn we spend to get it online. Jeskai Burn is a good matchup as all their creatures except Mantis Rider die to all of our removal and any time they spend cards to kill our draw/doomwake engine are cards not pointed at our face. Much of the sideboard is designated for green decks with access to back to nature, which we simple side out Doomwakes,Eidolons,and Brain Maggot for other resilient finishers and more kill or counter spells. Thoughts would be appreciated of course
so that's my core 55 cards and i feel it is some what right atm, well in my opinion at least, everyone plays differently.
so i have 5 cards left, so after reading this thread its obvious to a lot of people that sultai control is slow at closing out games and i too realized this after playing a few games with it. also some sort of sweeper or 2/1 is needed in this deck. i will explain some of the core cards and why i like them
i really like sign in blood, gives you that early CA at the cost of 2 life plus we don't really do much on turn 2 with our deck full of cards with CMC 3+ so gives you that little boost early on when otherwise we wouldn't do much if we don't have a caryatid. so i have change the mana base to accommodate for it with cutting a few forests for some llanowar wastes, plus a temple of mystery for a temple of deceit so that it helps that black mana early on.
now murderous cut i was a bit skeptical on at first but i have come to love it. playing sign in blood works quite neat helping fuel that early delve while producing CA. much like how thoughtseize helps our delve early so murderous cut seems to be 1 mana removal if were tight on our mana however on average were casting it for 2 or 3 which is still excellent atm, however if we can spare mana we can also save some delve for our epic late game dig through time and cast cut for 5
and as for the rest of the deck it's all pretty straight forward i hope as there all great cards.
now to find the 5 cards that fill in my core sultai control deck, so keeping in mind that sultai doesn't really have efficient ways to end a game much like aetherling I've thought about some paths i could take with the deck on how to close games out
1. for a more grindy control i can use my final 5 slots playing: 2xkiora, the crashing wave. 1xGarruk, Apex predator, garruk is a great finisher but he likes to take his time. and another 2 slots with removal that can help gain some sort of CA that compliments the use of planeswalkers and protecting them so perilous vault is out of the question so could be something like drown in sorrow or aetherspouts or most likely extinguish all hope, one thing i should note is i find that an early sign in blood can increasingly help a kiora. i found out all to often that i would be playing a kiora and using -1 then draw to only find that i don't have another land to play, courser can help this but if you dont have courser it is such a feel bad, however if i can cast a sign in blood t2 or t3 i rarely don't have that second land to play on the same turn.
2. i mentioned perilous vault and thought about wow this card is a really good board wipe and able to catch us up and is also neat with nissa, worldwaker as we can keep our 4/4 lands after activating perilous vault so maybe i could use my 5 slots to add in 2x perilous vault 2x nissa, worldwaker and a spell, not sure which as of yet but most likely a 3rd sign in blood or 4th sultai charm or maybe a 3rd prog sphinx or even a 26th land is possible maybe you could share some input if you prefer #2.
3. i was always hesitant to play a 3rd prognostic sphinx a lot of people on this thread were playing it and i just wasn't sold, but after playing more and more games it really did just seem to do a whole lot, it took some time to overcome my stubbornness but i realized that this card can help if we need to go on the defensive and excellent at going on the aggressive, a 3/5 flyer that can block almost everything in the air and so much on the ground is great to have, and to add on the hexproof ability and the massive scry 3 is just icing on the cake. so being able to block really well makes it seem quite good with protecting kiora. so here i could see adding 1 or 2 sphinx, 2x kiora's and some removal/disruption such as aetherspouts, silence the believers or maybe a garruk or even a nissa i am just not to sure what the numbers should be as of yet with this one.
i have considered alternative finishers empty the pits but i dont want competition for my graveyard for delving with dig through time, some people have mentioned villanous wealth but i think you're going to deep and should be focusing on a ramp deck at least.
i also thought about sagu mauler, now i really like this card. its hard to gang block this guy against sultai when we can use some removal and its a blow out, so its usually going to be getting in for 6 per turn, however some negatives are elspeth, suns champion minus ability and crackling doom, so those 2 cards scare me away from sagu mauler. however nissa feels like a 6 drop in herself so if i can play a nissa and get two lands to become 4/4's then its already better then sagu mauler. so idk, if you would like to share you're experience with sagu mauler as that would be great but i think i would rather just be playing perilous vaults and nissa's and get that CA, but i could be wrong and sagu mauler might just be the next best thing
so this could have been a waste of time and useless but i hope it was helpful and that im somewhere on the right track with sultai control. if could give some input/constructive criticism that would be great
If you want to side in against all the GX variants, what do you prefer, Disdainful Stroke or Despise?
I prefer Disdainful Stroke in this matchup, because since they will belch forth their hand against us, you HAVE to have Despise/Thoughtseize turn 1-2 for it to be of any use at all. That means running a lot of them, and drawing some later as terrible topdecks. Stroke, however, is cheap to hold up mana for, it is good all game from about turn 3 onwards, and it counters pretty much everything that matters in that match (including Eidolon of Blossoms, actually). Domri Rade is gone, so every planeswalker they might cast, plus every significant creature, plus random Chord of Calling that Despise can't get in the first place, all fall to Disdainful Stroke.
Of course, the real question is...why not both? If you want to run Despise in the SB, and some number of Disdainful Stroke in the side as well, I think that is perfectly fine. They both do work in that matchup. Because if you can TS/Despise on 1 or 2 of the first three turns, then at least you get them topdecking sooner, so it can be worth having the dead draws later to ensure that you start with at least one.
This brings up an interesting point for me. It seems Disdainful Stroke is pretty much better than Negate in the current meta. Same cost and hits everything we need to worry about except removal and burn, and even then it hits Stoke the Flames.
So that brings me to my next point...why Dissolve at all, anywhere in the 75? Nullify seems so much better-suited to shore up the deficiencies of Disdainful Stroke and costs less. Keep in mind that Dissolve also has UU in its cost.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'd probably do counterspells like this:
I prefer both Despise and Disdainful Stroke in the green match. These preemptive tools are the cheapest form of removal you have and they tackle issues before they arise as early as turn 1. Attacking their hand like this helps solve the problem of falling behind.
The reason Dissolve is in the 75 is because you need overlap when it comes to counter because decks like Jeskai demand it. You have to respect both decks and Nullify does not do that in the way Dissolve does.
I prefer both Despise and Disdainful Stroke in the green match. These preemptive tools are the cheapest form of removal you have and they tackle issues before they arise as early as turn 1. Attacking their hand like this helps solve the problem of falling behind.
The reason Dissolve is in the 75 is because you need overlap when it comes to counter because decks like Jeskai demand it. You have to respect both decks and Nullify does not do that in the way Dissolve does.
Sure.
Is there a strong argument not to run Nullify or Negate at all? In this meta you see a lot of creatures. But then that brings us back to Disdainful Stroke.
Dissolve does hit everything so it seems like it's the sideboard that would be the best place for it. Or even some kind of split. Running one Dissolve mainboard seems like it would be a decent plan if any others are in the sideboard.
In the same vein, is Despise maindeck material? I'm of the mind that it is in a quantity of 2, but there are some decks against which it will be subpar (decks that don't care which of their creatures you take, e.g. Monoblack Aggro or red decks) and against which it will be downright bad (the UB and UW draw-go control decks that are popping up). Against the Jeskai list even it's very good, and against the green decks too. But I hate getting caught with my pants down with maindeck cards as that game 1 win is huge in this format.
Despise is great against Mono B Aggro G1. You don't lose the 2 life like Thoughtseize, and you get the grab a creature that's a repeatable source of damage. Even if you whiff with Despise on T1, you now have a good idea of what you're playing against. Thoughtseize and Despise can quickly put us way ahead and I feel we want some mix of at least 6 in our 75.
Polluted Delta vs. Temple of Deceit is a pretty good discussion point. Filtering is very essential for us to meet the board where it is and if we whiff on that then we are doomed. The only real advantage to fetchlands is that they thin your deck and help you bring back cards you've scryed away. They'll also help with getting rid of an unwanted card you've scryed into if you can see it already with Courser. Think those annoying late game discard spells.
Temple of Deceit fixes your mana better than P Delta too. You have to choose one land or the other with fetches which puts it behind in terms of color fixing.
I prefer both Despise and Disdainful Stroke in the green match. These preemptive tools are the cheapest form of removal you have and they tackle issues before they arise as early as turn 1. Attacking their hand like this helps solve the problem of falling behind.
The reason Dissolve is in the 75 is because you need overlap when it comes to counter because decks like Jeskai demand it. You have to respect both decks and Nullify does not do that in the way Dissolve does.
Sure.
Is there a strong argument not to run Nullify or Negate at all? In this meta you see a lot of creatures. But then that brings us back to Disdainful Stroke.
Dissolve does hit everything so it seems like it's the sideboard that would be the best place for it. Or even some kind of split. Running one Dissolve mainboard seems like it would be a decent plan if any others are in the sideboard.
In the same vein, is Despise maindeck material? I'm of the mind that it is in a quantity of 2, but there are some decks against which it will be subpar (decks that don't care which of their creatures you take, e.g. Monoblack Aggro or red decks) and against which it will be downright bad (the UB and UW draw-go control decks that are popping up). Against the Jeskai list even it's very good, and against the green decks too. But I hate getting caught with my pants down with maindeck cards as that game 1 win is huge in this format.
I have debated including Nullify but it ultimately came down to what I was wanting to do with it and how many counters I wanted to allocate to each match. This is why I prefer Dissolve. It plays the role of Negates 4-7 and Disdainful Stroke 3-6. Nullify matters a lot less against the Jeskai Tempo decks, and even Despise matters a lot less against them. The deck already has issues with seeing enough threats on a consistent level, it is something I have heard mentioned by many Jeskai players over the last series of events I have either attended or went to spectate. You need to value non creatures much more in this match, which makes Despise a less important card for this match.
I would just stick with Thoughtseize in the main and leave Despise in the board. Sure, you can main it, but any more than 4 discard spells and I think you are leaving yourself in a spot that is just going to give you a lot of bad top decks as a sorcery speed answer. Creatures in the later game are played off the top in almost every instance they are drawn, which is why I think Nullify is better MB than Despise and even then I probably would not main Nullify.
I like Dissolve much more than Nullify because it teams well with Negate for the Jeskai and control match as well as Disdainful Stroke for the green based midrange matches. Nullify is much worse in the Jeskai match and not really even that much better in the Mono green match - in fact I don't think it is better at all in that match as Nissa can slip under it. It really is more about pairing your counterspells properly rather than looking for ones that solve certain issues.
I prefer both Despise and Disdainful Stroke in the green match. These preemptive tools are the cheapest form of removal you have and they tackle issues before they arise as early as turn 1. Attacking their hand like this helps solve the problem of falling behind.
The reason Dissolve is in the 75 is because you need overlap when it comes to counter because decks like Jeskai demand it. You have to respect both decks and Nullify does not do that in the way Dissolve does.
Sure.
Is there a strong argument not to run Nullify or Negate at all? In this meta you see a lot of creatures. But then that brings us back to Disdainful Stroke.
Dissolve does hit everything so it seems like it's the sideboard that would be the best place for it. Or even some kind of split. Running one Dissolve mainboard seems like it would be a decent plan if any others are in the sideboard.
In the same vein, is Despise maindeck material? I'm of the mind that it is in a quantity of 2, but there are some decks against which it will be subpar (decks that don't care which of their creatures you take, e.g. Monoblack Aggro or red decks) and against which it will be downright bad (the UB and UW draw-go control decks that are popping up). Against the Jeskai list even it's very good, and against the green decks too. But I hate getting caught with my pants down with maindeck cards as that game 1 win is huge in this format.
I have debated including Nullify but it ultimately came down to what I was wanting to do with it and how many counters I wanted to allocate to each match. This is why I prefer Dissolve. It plays the role of Negates 4-7 and Disdainful Stroke 3-6. Nullify matters a lot less against the Jeskai Tempo decks, and even Despise matters a lot less against them. The deck already has issues with seeing enough threats on a consistent level, it is something I have heard mentioned by many Jeskai players over the last series of events I have either attended or went to spectate. You need to value non creatures much more in this match, which makes Despise a less important card for this match.
I would just stick with Thoughtseize in the main and leave Despise in the board. Sure, you can main it, but any more than 4 discard spells and I think you are leaving yourself in a spot that is just going to give you a lot of bad top decks as a sorcery speed answer. Creatures in the later game are played off the top in almost every instance they are drawn, which is why I think Nullify is better MB than Despise and even then I probably would not main Nullify.
I like Dissolve much more than Nullify because it teams well with Negate for the Jeskai and control match as well as Disdainful Stroke for the green based midrange matches. Nullify is much worse in the Jeskai match and not really even that much better in the Mono green match - in fact I don't think it is better at all in that match as Nissa can slip under it. It really is more about pairing your counterspells properly rather than looking for ones that solve certain issues.
So we keep Negate anyway? I guess it's the best counterspell for the Jeskai match and really any match where we can reasonably suppose that we will make it to the later turns.
I can see your logic about Nullify. Probably a good card for the draw-go decks, but that's not us.
Despise in the sideboard seems fine but you also run the risk of it being just dead later.
Do we leave all four Thoughtseize in for the green matchup in games 2-3? My first instinct would be yes, and we'd probably pull (in order of priority):
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers 6
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Sorceries 4
4 Thoughtseize
Instants 14
3 Sultai Charm
3 Dissolve
2 AEtherspouts
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Dig Through Time
4 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Opulent Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Extinguish All Hope
1 Aetherspouts
3 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Bile Blight
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Despise
This was created after reading the previous Bug thread and some of the choices were out of stubbornness on my part. AS you can see by the dissolves MB with no BB in the main, definitely contributed to my loss in top 4.
Edit: Extinguish all hope is not the Board clear we are looking for. Most mid range decks are running their fair share of PW and Coursers.:P
-Kiora was a four mana explore most of the time, I agree on removing her almost entirely from the deck.
-Dissolves were also bad MB except against my R1 opponent Jeskai Tempo. Turn 3-4 we are building up our board with PW's and Courser's and by turn 5-6 my opponent already has a threat in play that i need to deal with while dissolve rots in my hand.
-3 sphinx seemed liked a bit much with 2 dig through time in the deck. I'm considering going down to 2 sphinx.
-Dig through time was the all star of the deck, whenever i cast it i won. I'm hesitant on going to 3 since no one else agrees with that but gosh darn i love this card.
-4th thoughtseize is excessive.
- I sided in disdainful stroke in against everything I played except mono-b. Its not dead against any deck in the format and does what i thought dissolve would do against aggro/tempo. Countering their finishers.
My SB was thrown together to cover all my bases.
The main problem with this control list as opposed to UW control from last standard is that it wins so slow and by not as much. I only felt safe attacking with 1 sphinx or courser at a time.
I was agreeing that the deck is often to slow. I play more walkers to speed the game up, at least compared to Kamahl's build. I don't think the walkers collectively are underwhelming. All walkers are different, they have their strengths and weaknesses and so it is how you use them and build around them. My deck's design is to buy the time needed to get a couple walkers on the board giving me recurring card advantage that becomes overwhelming. Comparatively it is still slow versus aggro, but it isn't as slow as true control.
I admit that I could be totally wrong here. I'm sure most of you have a lot more experience with this deck than I do. I'm just thinking out loud here to try and get a better understanding of this deck's strengths and weaknesses.
Also, I'm having a hard time figuring out whether to add Liliana Vess or Garruk, Apex Predator to the MB. I think Liliana is definitely underatted. Even in he worst case scenario you play her as a 5CMC tutor, which is by no means the worst thing you could be doing. I also like Garruk because of how good he is from behind and because of how quickly he can spiral out of control. I'm just worried about the 7CMC being too slow. Has anybody else found Garruk to be too slow?
U/R Delver
I have. It replaced Polukranos for me originally. I've played with it a bunch, and it is good, but I'm starting to think that Prognostic Sphinx is better. The ability to protect itself the turn it is cast with a discard and no mana up is huge and something Reaper can't match. FWIW Sphinx also dodges all those "4 power" cards like Elsepth etc.
So everyone hates Kiora, that's fine. Ashiok seems like you'd go 2-3 main and if you choose 2 then you'd shoot for 1 more in the sideboard.
Sultai Charm is perfect at 3 in any Sultai list, IMO.
Reaper of the Wilds is probably a decent sideboard card against blitz decks. It's not great against green though, and is almost useless against the Jeskai deck. Its only pro there is that they can't kill it.
4 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Ashiok, the Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, the Living Guildpact
Creatures
1 Sagu Mauler
1 Arbor Colossus
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
Spells
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Dissolve
1 Aetherspouts
1 Silence the Believers
2 Bile Blight
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Murderous Cut
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Sultai Charm
1 Dismal Backwater
1 Jungle Hollow
2 Opulent Palace
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Mystery
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Nylea's Disciple
2 Negate
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Liliana Vess
1 Silence the Believers
1 In Garruk's Wake
1 Murderous Cut
There's a lot of tweaking to be done, but in a meta that's heavily Jeskai tempo, Rabblered, and other highly aggressive strategies I like it. The Silence the Believers are a recent addition and help tremendously against Sarkhan. Kiora as a 4 of is probably wrong, but she blanks Sarkhan and at worst is an Explore and some life gain. The Jace's are great card filter that can eventually time spiral, and they often do considering how much removal and defensive cards the deck has. If I stick all three main deck planeswalkers, I usually ultimate all of them just from their synergies.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
On the other hand, if you just ran some games against it and determined that it's a bad matchup for us, then that's one thing. You may not face many of them in tournaments, and if you do, sorry.
The green decks and constellation decks both do spiral out of control very quickly. But they don't really keep a whole lot back. That's why we need x-for-1 removal. Aetherspouts is almost useless once they see it as they will only attack with one or two big guys and leave the rest back.
Extinguish All Hope is good against the green decks but awful against Constellation. Back to Nature murks your own Coursers.
You could play In Garruk's Wake but that's just insane without ramp.
Sultai Charm hits enchantments.
You could also put Phenax in your board and try to mill them out as they will be doing a fair job of it themselves already.
Just some thoughts.
If you want to side in against all the GX variants, what do you prefer, Disdainful Stroke or Despise?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
I prefer Disdainful Stroke in this matchup, because since they will belch forth their hand against us, you HAVE to have Despise/Thoughtseize turn 1-2 for it to be of any use at all. That means running a lot of them, and drawing some later as terrible topdecks. Stroke, however, is cheap to hold up mana for, it is good all game from about turn 3 onwards, and it counters pretty much everything that matters in that match (including Eidolon of Blossoms, actually). Domri Rade is gone, so every planeswalker they might cast, plus every significant creature, plus random Chord of Calling that Despise can't get in the first place, all fall to Disdainful Stroke.
Of course, the real question is...why not both? If you want to run Despise in the SB, and some number of Disdainful Stroke in the side as well, I think that is perfectly fine. They both do work in that matchup. Because if you can TS/Despise on 1 or 2 of the first three turns, then at least you get them topdecking sooner, so it can be worth having the dead draws later to ensure that you start with at least one.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Kiora the Crashing Wave
3 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bile Blight
1 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Silence the Believers
3 Dig Through Time
4 Opulent Palace
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Deceit
3 Yavimaya Coast
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Urborg
SB:
4 Pharika's Cure
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Sultai Charm
1 Silence the Believers
1 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Into the AEther
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Dead Drop
Got second place with Sultai midrange. Got a bye, then I beat Jeskai Tempo, Mardu Midrange, lost to another Sultai deck and then beat Boros tokens in the last round. Top 8 didn't want to play so we just split the prizes.
Jeskai Tempo was a mostly easy match-up. He got me into single digits multiple times but I had enough removal and blockers to stabilize. In one game he pulled an alpha strike that decimated his board to get me to three life. He then tried to burn me out for three consecutive turns but I countered all of his burn spells and eventually I just killed him. Mardu midrange was also easy. We were evenly matched in threats and removal, but I had Dig Through Time and he didn't. Eventually he would run out of resources and I would still have tons of gas. Boros Tokens beat me first game, but I sideboarded into tons of spot removal and Drown in Sorrows. Just straight-up wrecked his board position over and over. He had Ride Down to make blocking risky for me, but I had Negate to make that plan risky for him. The Sultai match-up wasn't actually a mirror, because he was more focused on ramp. I lost game one because I got stuck on three lands all game, then on game two I ground him down till I had two removal spells in hand and a Reaper + Bow of Nylea on board to his no cards in hand and two Caryatids + Rattleclaw Mystic. Thought I the advantage but he topdecked Villainous Wealth and cast it for five, hitting all three of my Prognostic Sphinx (!). I still almost beat that, but he started chaining his own Dig Through Times and I couldn't keep up.
Some observations:
* My "scry chaff to the bottom of the deck" plan worked great. I looked at the bottom of my deck after every game and it was full of low impact cards I scryed down with Reaper, Sphinx, Lands and Digs. Polluted Deltas would have shuffled those back in so it was the right call to pass on them.
* Dig Through Time is the most powerful card in Standard.
* Prognostic Sphinx is great against Mantis Rider.
* Reaper of the Wilds is great vs Siege Rhino and Polukranos.
* Kiora was already iffy because of Rabblemaster threatening her if she comes down with a -1, but now that Mantis Rider is popular she's even worse.
* It mostly seemed better to fall behind a bit with an extra tap land and come from behind with Drown in Sorrow than it is to try and keep pace with Fetches, Pain Lands and Bile Blights. You still need Bile Blights to kill Mantis Rider though.
* Drown in Sorrow is great vs ramp because it hits the ramp dorks and also Hornet Queen.
* Negate seemed better than Disdainful Stroke in general, but I felt I needed stroke as an additional way to combat Hornet Queen. Adding in the second Drown in Sorrow seems better to me now that I think of it.
* Bile Blight can be used as a combat trick.
* Bow of Nylea can stop Jeskai from burning you out, handle a Hornet Queen all by itself, let Sphinx eat a dragon and make your Coursers into real threats.
* It's fine to leave Courser in as the only creature they can kill. After sideboarding they can either leave their removal on the board and maybe you don't even draw a Courser, or they can take their removal out and if you draw Courser you can ride it all the way to value town. Worst case scenario you play it and they kill it, which is mostly an even trade.
* I tested with AEtherspouts, Nissa and Ashiok but they weren't winning me games so I left them on the bench. Maybe with the new version I can put them in the board.
For the sideboard I used most of the cards and was happy with them except for Dead Drop and Unravel the AEther. I never went up against any Sphinx/Reaper/Sagu Mauler decks so there was never a reason to bring in Dead Drop. As for Unravel I didn't bring it in against Jeskai because in game one I saw Gods Willing so I assumed it was the Jadine build. Game 2 he had Banishing Light so maybe I should have brought it in after all. I didn't see Keranos, though. Would you bring Unravel in vs Jeskai in that circumstance? It's possible that I had too many Pharika's Cure because I found myself cutting cards that seemed only slightly worse against aggro, and that Sultai Charm should have been in the main.
I am making a few minor changes based on my experiences. I think I will cut the Kioras from the main to fit the fourth Reaper and Sphinx. I was never sad to topdeck them and always felt like drawing more would be great. I will also cut two Bile Blights and the Silence the Believers for two Sultai Charms and the second Drown in Sorrow. For the mana base, I will cut two pain lands for two Scry lands. Especially against aggro, I felt that I was always drawing one or two Pain lands too many. To be honest I frequently felt that if I could draw one land that came into play untapped and all the rest came into play tapped, I would be fine. For my next event I am thinking to go with something like this:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Negate
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Bow of Nylea
3 Dig Through Time
4 Opulent Palace
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Deceit
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Urborg
SB:
4 ???
4 Pharika's Cure
2 Silence the Believers
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Into the AEther
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Dead Drop
MB
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Creatures
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Brain Maggot
4 Doomwake Giant
4 Courser of Kruphix
Kill
2 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Sultai Charm
Land
4 Polluted Delta
1 Opulent Palace
2 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg Tomb of Yogmoth
2 Island
3 Swamp
4 Forest
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Prognostic Sphinx
2 Bile Blight
1 Thoughtseize
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Sultai Charm
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Extinguish All Hope
This deck has a nice mainboard solution to aggro with Doomwake Giant, which is also a finisher. Card draw engine in Eidolon can also close out games while we 1 for 1 with removal, biggest problem is the turn we spend to get it online. Jeskai Burn is a good matchup as all their creatures except Mantis Rider die to all of our removal and any time they spend cards to kill our draw/doomwake engine are cards not pointed at our face. Much of the sideboard is designated for green decks with access to back to nature, which we simple side out Doomwakes,Eidolons,and Brain Maggot for other resilient finishers and more kill or counter spells. Thoughts would be appreciated of course
[edit]- made it look all nice
1x Forest
2x Island
3x Llanowar Wastes
3x Opulent Palace
4x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
1x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Malady
3x Temple of Mystery
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Dig Through Time
4x Hero's Downfall
1x Murderous Cut
3x Sultai Charm
Planeswalkers
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
Creatures
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Prognostic Sphinx
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Sign in Blood
4x Thoughtseize
so that's my core 55 cards and i feel it is some what right atm, well in my opinion at least, everyone plays differently.
so i have 5 cards left, so after reading this thread its obvious to a lot of people that sultai control is slow at closing out games and i too realized this after playing a few games with it. also some sort of sweeper or 2/1 is needed in this deck. i will explain some of the core cards and why i like them
i really like sign in blood, gives you that early CA at the cost of 2 life plus we don't really do much on turn 2 with our deck full of cards with CMC 3+ so gives you that little boost early on when otherwise we wouldn't do much if we don't have a caryatid. so i have change the mana base to accommodate for it with cutting a few forests for some llanowar wastes, plus a temple of mystery for a temple of deceit so that it helps that black mana early on.
now murderous cut i was a bit skeptical on at first but i have come to love it. playing sign in blood works quite neat helping fuel that early delve while producing CA. much like how thoughtseize helps our delve early so murderous cut seems to be 1 mana removal if were tight on our mana however on average were casting it for 2 or 3 which is still excellent atm, however if we can spare mana we can also save some delve for our epic late game dig through time and cast cut for 5
and as for the rest of the deck it's all pretty straight forward i hope as there all great cards.
now to find the 5 cards that fill in my core sultai control deck, so keeping in mind that sultai doesn't really have efficient ways to end a game much like aetherling I've thought about some paths i could take with the deck on how to close games out
1. for a more grindy control i can use my final 5 slots playing: 2xkiora, the crashing wave. 1xGarruk, Apex predator, garruk is a great finisher but he likes to take his time. and another 2 slots with removal that can help gain some sort of CA that compliments the use of planeswalkers and protecting them so perilous vault is out of the question so could be something like drown in sorrow or aetherspouts or most likely extinguish all hope, one thing i should note is i find that an early sign in blood can increasingly help a kiora. i found out all to often that i would be playing a kiora and using -1 then draw to only find that i don't have another land to play, courser can help this but if you dont have courser it is such a feel bad, however if i can cast a sign in blood t2 or t3 i rarely don't have that second land to play on the same turn.
2. i mentioned perilous vault and thought about wow this card is a really good board wipe and able to catch us up and is also neat with nissa, worldwaker as we can keep our 4/4 lands after activating perilous vault so maybe i could use my 5 slots to add in 2x perilous vault 2x nissa, worldwaker and a spell, not sure which as of yet but most likely a 3rd sign in blood or 4th sultai charm or maybe a 3rd prog sphinx or even a 26th land is possible maybe you could share some input if you prefer #2.
3. i was always hesitant to play a 3rd prognostic sphinx a lot of people on this thread were playing it and i just wasn't sold, but after playing more and more games it really did just seem to do a whole lot, it took some time to overcome my stubbornness but i realized that this card can help if we need to go on the defensive and excellent at going on the aggressive, a 3/5 flyer that can block almost everything in the air and so much on the ground is great to have, and to add on the hexproof ability and the massive scry 3 is just icing on the cake. so being able to block really well makes it seem quite good with protecting kiora. so here i could see adding 1 or 2 sphinx, 2x kiora's and some removal/disruption such as aetherspouts, silence the believers or maybe a garruk or even a nissa i am just not to sure what the numbers should be as of yet with this one.
i have considered alternative finishers empty the pits but i dont want competition for my graveyard for delving with dig through time, some people have mentioned villanous wealth but i think you're going to deep and should be focusing on a ramp deck at least.
i also thought about sagu mauler, now i really like this card. its hard to gang block this guy against sultai when we can use some removal and its a blow out, so its usually going to be getting in for 6 per turn, however some negatives are elspeth, suns champion minus ability and crackling doom, so those 2 cards scare me away from sagu mauler. however nissa feels like a 6 drop in herself so if i can play a nissa and get two lands to become 4/4's then its already better then sagu mauler. so idk, if you would like to share you're experience with sagu mauler as that would be great but i think i would rather just be playing perilous vaults and nissa's and get that CA, but i could be wrong and sagu mauler might just be the next best thing
so this could have been a waste of time and useless but i hope it was helpful and that im somewhere on the right track with sultai control. if could give some input/constructive criticism that would be great
So that brings me to my next point...why Dissolve at all, anywhere in the 75? Nullify seems so much better-suited to shore up the deficiencies of Disdainful Stroke and costs less. Keep in mind that Dissolve also has UU in its cost.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'd probably do counterspells like this:
Main
2 Disdainful Stroke
Side
2 Disdainful Stroke
1-2 Nullify
The reason Dissolve is in the 75 is because you need overlap when it comes to counter because decks like Jeskai demand it. You have to respect both decks and Nullify does not do that in the way Dissolve does.
Is there a strong argument not to run Nullify or Negate at all? In this meta you see a lot of creatures. But then that brings us back to Disdainful Stroke.
Dissolve does hit everything so it seems like it's the sideboard that would be the best place for it. Or even some kind of split. Running one Dissolve mainboard seems like it would be a decent plan if any others are in the sideboard.
In the same vein, is Despise maindeck material? I'm of the mind that it is in a quantity of 2, but there are some decks against which it will be subpar (decks that don't care which of their creatures you take, e.g. Monoblack Aggro or red decks) and against which it will be downright bad (the UB and UW draw-go control decks that are popping up). Against the Jeskai list even it's very good, and against the green decks too. But I hate getting caught with my pants down with maindeck cards as that game 1 win is huge in this format.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
Polluted Delta vs. Temple of Deceit is a pretty good discussion point. Filtering is very essential for us to meet the board where it is and if we whiff on that then we are doomed. The only real advantage to fetchlands is that they thin your deck and help you bring back cards you've scryed away. They'll also help with getting rid of an unwanted card you've scryed into if you can see it already with Courser. Think those annoying late game discard spells.
Temple of Deceit fixes your mana better than P Delta too. You have to choose one land or the other with fetches which puts it behind in terms of color fixing.
2 fetchlands is probably fine. 4 is pushing it.
I have debated including Nullify but it ultimately came down to what I was wanting to do with it and how many counters I wanted to allocate to each match. This is why I prefer Dissolve. It plays the role of Negates 4-7 and Disdainful Stroke 3-6. Nullify matters a lot less against the Jeskai Tempo decks, and even Despise matters a lot less against them. The deck already has issues with seeing enough threats on a consistent level, it is something I have heard mentioned by many Jeskai players over the last series of events I have either attended or went to spectate. You need to value non creatures much more in this match, which makes Despise a less important card for this match.
I would just stick with Thoughtseize in the main and leave Despise in the board. Sure, you can main it, but any more than 4 discard spells and I think you are leaving yourself in a spot that is just going to give you a lot of bad top decks as a sorcery speed answer. Creatures in the later game are played off the top in almost every instance they are drawn, which is why I think Nullify is better MB than Despise and even then I probably would not main Nullify.
I like Dissolve much more than Nullify because it teams well with Negate for the Jeskai and control match as well as Disdainful Stroke for the green based midrange matches. Nullify is much worse in the Jeskai match and not really even that much better in the Mono green match - in fact I don't think it is better at all in that match as Nissa can slip under it. It really is more about pairing your counterspells properly rather than looking for ones that solve certain issues.
I can see your logic about Nullify. Probably a good card for the draw-go decks, but that's not us.
Despise in the sideboard seems fine but you also run the risk of it being just dead later.
Do we leave all four Thoughtseize in for the green matchup in games 2-3? My first instinct would be yes, and we'd probably pull (in order of priority):
Nylea
Chord
Genesis Hydra
Nissa