Welcome to the Sultai Control Primer, where you will learn a bit about the deck and the card choices available as well as some strategy behind it. I am excited to see these colors and what potential they may have in the new Standard format. The objective of this primer is to serve as an introduction to Sultai Control and offer a table for discussion and assistance.
Featuring Theros block all-stars: Sylvan Caryatid, Courser of Kruphix, and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Sultai Control offers one of the spotlight control shells coming out of Block Constructed and some of the most powerful control tools in Khans of Tarkir Standard format.
Sultai Control was the premier Control deck out of Theros Block Constructed and made use of some of the best cards in block for combating the best cards out of that Block. In a format where Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Fleecemane Lion, Stormbreath Dragon, and Xenagos the Reveler reigned supreme, Prognostic Sphinx was able to take advantage of the lack of sweepers to pin down the powerhouses of the format in an incredibly efficient way. Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Caryatid offered the deck a way to start walling aggressive strategies and help transition the deck into the later stages of the game and could create immense value with Prognostic Sphinx and Kiora, the Crashing Wave.
Heading into the Theros and Khans of Tarkir Standard, these tools once again provide the same raw efficiency backed by some of strongest removal in the format. In a world of aggressive strategies and dominant green based midrange decks, Sylvan Caryatid, Courser of Kruphix, Prognostic Sphinx and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver offer you powerful tools to combat the popular strategies in the opening of this format.
Currently building... XGRUrzaTron in Modern, WUBEsper Control in Modern, BGRJund in Modern, UWRThopter Miracles in Legacy, BUWGDelver-Tog in Legacy (My guilty pleasure)
I'm a bit maindecked vs. aggro, tokens, hornet queen, rabblemaster, satyrs, zombies, elvish mystic into rattleclaw mystic... all that stuff that Drown in sorrow blows out.
Thanks, Kamahl. I realize that this thread isn't in the "competitive" section so our discussion shouldn't be relegated to just the "hot shots" of the magic world. With that said, let's keep it competitive in spirit nonetheless. The quality of our discussion was high. I hope we keep it that way. Tried, honest, and civil.
Hey there, awesome thread. figured i would post my BUG deck here. Ive taken a brave chance and chosen not to play courser and caryatid in my build =). heres my build =)
my strategy more or less is heavy Blue Black control, splashing green mainly just for garruk and kiora so i have a lot less green sources and a lot fewer mana problems. My build features a premium removal suite, with a heavy set of planeswalkers. In sideboard ive opted for a lot of aggro removal options, i also have clever impersonator in there for some of the walker matchups, negates for the burn / counter control matches. and whelming wave which i except to see a fair amount of use for matchups that feature hexproof and clunky threats that i can globally remove creatures. Such as opponents prognostic sphinxes, fleece mane lions, token killing, etc, and one psychic intrusion for stealing some really high quality threats
the absence of silence the believers in some lists, is shocking. Without it you can´t interact with a god that is already in play. Also you remove creatures for reanimator.
I have not been able to test my deck too much, but the few games I have managed, it has consistently removed the threats as well as end the game at a decent pace.
The reason I play Extinguish all Hope is that I feel the deck needs some sort of sweeper effect. In Garruk's Wake is a bit too much mana, and you don't want too many copies of it anyway, so why not this card. The main enchantment creature in standard is Courser, and if you and your opponent have one, they just bounce off each other, so attacking is pointless. This resets the board, which can let you answer their new threats and get you ahead of their game.
I'm trying to build BUG deck:
(deck)
I'm thinking about switching Bident of Thassa for 26th land
Any thoughts??
Cheers
First of all, you are posting midrange (pretty much a Sultai version of Jund) deck, not control list, but apart from that, your manabase is borderline passable. With only 13 green sources and so many cipt lands, you might struggle to reliably play manadork t2. Replace the UB temples and Thornwood falls with BG temples and it will look much better - especially since you don't really need that many blue sources. Jungle hollow should probably be another palace, as the 1 life will rarely be relevant.
Your deck will suffer from the Jund syndrome - drawing the wrong half of your deck, but all BGx midrange decks suffer like that...
Bident is weird inclusion with just 9 creatures. Do you plan on using its activated ability extensively?
Whip is probably fine.
Villanious Wealth is imho 1of at most (if you really like the card) unless you can abuse it - read: being able to generate absurd amounts of mana via Nykthos or so. Spending 7-8 mana probably won't win your the game and something like Garruk or Nissa would definitely be much more reliable and desirable.
You really don't want to run 26 lands. Replace the Bident with another Dig. That card is nuts.
the absence of silence the believers in some lists, is shocking. Without it you can´t interact with a god that is already in play. Also you remove creatures for reanimator.
If the game gets to the point where silence the believers works on a god, you are pretty screwed anyway. And you really don't want to run 4mana removal. Right now, gods aren't that represented in meta. If every other deck was running a god and threatened to animate it readily, running it would definitely be an option. And I'd argue, I'd probably want to try and kill their devotion enablers to turn off the god that way.
If the game gets to the point where silence the believers works on a god, you are pretty screwed anyway. And you really don't want to run 4mana removal. Right now, gods aren't that represented in meta. If every other deck was running a god and threatened to animate it readily, running it would definitely be an option. And I'd argue, I'd probably want to try and kill their devotion enablers to turn off the god that way.
Sphinx is not concern with regards to providing god devotion (not right now anyway).
Sagu mauler is an issue and we have trouble dealing with it as it is, I will admit that being able to get rid of Nylea when supported by this creature would be nice, but in current meta this is unlikely to happen too often.
With your suggested line of play I'm, in this order:
a) killing bow with charm as bow is major issue that threatens getting out of hand quickly no matter if supported by a god or not
b) shutting Nylea down with Kiora
c) killing the dork, considering by the time this happens I'm most likely sitting on at least 2 removal spells that I can't use against anything else
d) trying to use double Bile Blight to kill Nylea (which probably isn't happening, but is still entirely possible)
If the game gets to the point where silence the believers works on a god, you are pretty screwed anyway. And you really don't want to run 4mana removal. Right now, gods aren't that represented in meta. If every other deck was running a god and threatened to animate it readily, running it would definitely be an option. And I'd argue, I'd probably want to try and kill their devotion enablers to turn off the god that way.
Well, you do have the ability to destroy the Bow with Charm, or you can Aetherspouts Nylea and anything else back to their hand (which helps more if you use counterspells), or you can fog her with Kiora. That is several answers for a situation in which only 1 of their four permanents on board is a threat (which means that you should have card advantage from not needing to answer the others).
If there is a god to worry about I would say it's Keranos in Jeskai decks. No way to answer him and he is a strong source of card advantage.
Sphinx is not concern with regards to providing god devotion (not right now anyway).
Sagu mauler is an issue and we have trouble dealing with it as it is, I will admit that being able to get rid of Nylea when supported by this creature would be nice, but in current meta this is unlikely to happen too often.
With your suggested line of play I'm, in this order:
a) killing bow with charm as bow is major issue that threatens getting out of hand quickly no matter if supported by a god or not
b) shutting Nylea down with Kiora
c) killing the dork, considering by the time this happens I'm most likely sitting on at least 2 removal spells that I can't use against anything else
d) trying to use double Bile Blight to kill Nylea (which probably isn't happening, but is still entirely possible)
I understand your point of view. but to me that double bile doesn´t seem right. If you know that something might happen you better be prepared. I mean, it isn´t that weird to play against two sylvan cariatyd, sagu mauler and nylea. Besides it seems better to spend 4 mana in one card rather than 4 mana on two cards. I guess that balance is everything.
In my testing I have found 3x seems to be right because not only the sheer about of enchantment creatures, but also the number of enchantments which white will attempt to play against us. In my SB it also allows for a swift switch out with other cards more suiting the given situation in which I boarded them for. Also, there is still a good number of solid color creatures which hit the board fairly frequently -- and of course, one cannot "discard" the draw 2 discard 1 by any means.
Anybody have any thoughts on Sultai Charm. I keep going back an forth on 2 or 3 copies.
I'd say 3 is correct. It's one of the best cards available in our colors.
As for the Silence the Believers debate, I believe it's a 1-of in the sideboard for specific situations. For 7 mana you get 2 guys, which is nice, but you won't make it to 7 mana unless you're playing against a similarly slow strategy.
All the folks wondering how to deal with problematic creatures...learn to lean. (On Aetherspouts.) It's the best "wipe" we have in these colors.
Anybody have any thoughts on Sultai Charm. I keep going back an forth on 2 or 3 copies.
From what I've seen so far in my playtesting, Sultai Charm is excellent if only for the first and last modes. The "discard 1" is actually hardly a drawback when we're running Dig Through Time and Murderous Cut. The only reason I run 3 instead of 4 is because Hero's Downfall is the better removal option and deserves to be played as a full playset.
here is my deck, i would like to play 4th caryatid but don't know what to shave. also with so much midrange and control looking to be more popular psychic intrusion is going to be awesome! specially in a deck that can ramp.
i don't know whether i want to play aetherspouts or silence the believers, and i love having 3 kiora's so that the first one you play is to get card advantage and ramp is sweet!!
i have cut down on bile blight main cause its average against midrange. im just expecting aggro to die down a little.
Great Primer Indeed. Nissa, Worldwaker should be in the main. I am also testing Sagu Mauler as a finisher (not to replace prognostic Sphinx). As for Kiora, are we just trying to get to 5 loyalty for that emblem? I know the +1 can stall a bit also.
I played a Midrangey/Control BUG deck last week, and we 4-1. My only issue I had was in a control mirror against Esper. I had focused on the Day 1 aggro decks that I knew would be kicking around. This was the list I ran.
Great Primer Indeed. Nissa, Worldwaker should be in the main. I am also doing testing Sagu Mauler as a finisher (not to replace prognostic Sphinx). As for Kiora, are we just trying to get to 5 loyalty for that emblem? I know the +1 can stall a bit also.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Nissa just slightly worse than the other planeswalkers in this build because of the midrange matchup?
What I like about this deck so far is that it's got a pretty good game against the midranged creature decks, which is where Ashiok and Kiora shine the most. Nissa is obviously very strong, and absolutely absurd against control decks, but isn't the prospect of making 4/4's a little less impressive when they'll be butting heads against Poly-K/Siege Rhino/Sagu Mauler/etc.?
I could be totally off here, and the only real reason I'm not planning on playing Nissa yet is because I'm not willing to shell out $40 for a card that'll drop like a brick after it rotates.
here is my deck, i would like to play 4th caryatid but don't know what to shave. also with so much midrange and control looking to be more popular psychic intrusion is going to be awesome! specially in a deck that can ramp.
i don't know whether i want to play aetherspouts or silence the believers, and i love having 3 kiora's so that the first one you play is to get card advantage and ramp is sweet!!
i have cut down on bile blight main cause its average against midrange. im just expecting aggro to die down a little.
I'd move the Silence the Believers to the sideboard to make room for a fourth Caryatid.
Great Primer Indeed. Nissa, Worldwaker should be in the main. I am also doing testing Sagu Mauler as a finisher (not to replace prognostic Sphinx). As for Kiora, are we just trying to get to 5 loyalty for that emblem? I know the +1 can stall a bit also.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Nissa just slightly worse than the other planeswalkers in this build because of the midrange matchup?
What I like about this deck so far is that it's got a pretty good game against the midranged creature decks, which is where Ashiok and Kiora shine the most. Nissa is obviously very strong, and absolutely absurd against control decks, but isn't the prospect of making 4/4's a little less impressive when they'll be butting heads against Poly-K/Siege Rhino/Sagu Mauler/etc.?
I could be totally off here, and the only real reason I'm not planning on playing Nissa yet is because I'm not willing to shell out $40 for a card that'll drop like a brick after it rotates.
Play with her. She keeps making 4/4's which we can leverage against our opponents as our removal will always be better than theirs. Aggro decks have trouble with that too. You basically keep making walls until you can alpha strike.
Some folks don't care for Nissa. I do. I like her alongside Darksteel Citadel a lot.
I'm excited to read the rest.
GWBAbzan Midrange in standard.
XRU Affinity in Modern
Currently building...
XGRUrzaTron in Modern, WUBEsper Control in Modern, BGRJund in Modern, UWRThopter Miracles in Legacy, BUWGDelver-Tog in Legacy (My guilty pleasure)
Trade list is coming soon.
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Embodiment of Spring
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Planeswalkers (7):
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
4 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instants & Sorceries (18):
2 Ætherspouts
2 Bile Blight
2 Dig Through Time
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
3 Sultai Charm
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Swamp
2 Opulent Palace
4 Polluted Delta
2 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ætherspouts
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
Looking forward to sideboarding strategies as well
4 sylvan caryatid
3 courser of kruphix
2 prognostic sphinx
1 sagu mauler
walkers
3 ashiok, nightmare weaver
2 kiora, the crashing wave
2 nissa, worldwaker
1 garruk, apex predator
3 thoughtseize
4 hero's downfall
1 bile blight
1 murderous cut
2 sultai charm
2 aetherspouts
2 drown in sorrow
draw
2 dig through time
2 extinguish all hope
3 pharika's cure
1 drown in sorrow
3 dissolve
3 disdainful stroke
1 negate
1 liliana vess
1 silence the believers
I'm a bit maindecked vs. aggro, tokens, hornet queen, rabblemaster, satyrs, zombies, elvish mystic into rattleclaw mystic... all that stuff that Drown in sorrow blows out.
My main considerations are 1) converting drown in sorrow and/or Nissa, worldwaker into more bile blight and sultai charm. I'm not happy with my bile blight and Charm count, but Nissa is sooo powerful...
3x courser... because I dislike drawing her late game.
my strategy more or less is heavy Blue Black control, splashing green mainly just for garruk and kiora so i have a lot less green sources and a lot fewer mana problems. My build features a premium removal suite, with a heavy set of planeswalkers. In sideboard ive opted for a lot of aggro removal options, i also have clever impersonator in there for some of the walker matchups, negates for the burn / counter control matches. and whelming wave which i except to see a fair amount of use for matchups that feature hexproof and clunky threats that i can globally remove creatures. Such as opponents prognostic sphinxes, fleece mane lions, token killing, etc, and one psychic intrusion for stealing some really high quality threats
6x Island
3x Opulent Palace
6x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
2x Temple of Malady
3x Temple of Mystery
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sorcery (3)
3x Thoughtseize
Creature (1)
1x Prognostic Sphinx
Instant (18)
1x AEtherspouts
3x Bile Blight
3x Dig Through Time
4x Dissolve
4x Hero's Downfall
3x Silence the Believers
4x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Garruk, Apex Predator
2x Jace, the Living Guildpact
3x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2x Liliana Vess
1x Bile Blight
2x Clever Impersonator
3x Drown in Sorrow
3x Negate
2x Pharika's Cure
1x Prognostic Sphinx
1x Psychic Intrusion
2x Whelming Wave
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Lili for control matchups
WizzardJohn:
I'm afraid your list is way too slow for current meta. But I won't judge and look forward to you posting your results with it.
4 temple of mystery
4 temple of malady
3 temple of deceit
1 opulent palace
1 yavimaya coast
3 llanowar wastes
4 polluted delta
2 swamp
2 forest
2 island
creatures
4 sylvan caryatid
4 courser of kruphix
3 prognostic sphinx
2 reaper of the wilds
1 polukranos, world eater
4 hero's downfall
3 sultai charm
2 murderous cut
2 silence the believers
2 dissolve
2 divination
1 jace's ingenuity
1 read the bones
1 treasure cruise
1 extinguish all hope
planeswalkers
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Pharika's Cure
2 Clever Impersonator
2 mistcutter hydra
2 gainsay
1 tormod's crypt
1 stain the mind
1 dissipate
1 bile blight
1 dark betrayal
1 extinguish all hope
The reason I play Extinguish all Hope is that I feel the deck needs some sort of sweeper effect. In Garruk's Wake is a bit too much mana, and you don't want too many copies of it anyway, so why not this card. The main enchantment creature in standard is Courser, and if you and your opponent have one, they just bounce off each other, so attacking is pointless. This resets the board, which can let you answer their new threats and get you ahead of their game.
First of all, you are posting midrange (pretty much a Sultai version of Jund) deck, not control list, but apart from that, your manabase is borderline passable. With only 13 green sources and so many cipt lands, you might struggle to reliably play manadork t2. Replace the UB temples and Thornwood falls with BG temples and it will look much better - especially since you don't really need that many blue sources. Jungle hollow should probably be another palace, as the 1 life will rarely be relevant.
Your deck will suffer from the Jund syndrome - drawing the wrong half of your deck, but all BGx midrange decks suffer like that...
Bident is weird inclusion with just 9 creatures. Do you plan on using its activated ability extensively?
Whip is probably fine.
Villanious Wealth is imho 1of at most (if you really like the card) unless you can abuse it - read: being able to generate absurd amounts of mana via Nykthos or so. Spending 7-8 mana probably won't win your the game and something like Garruk or Nissa would definitely be much more reliable and desirable.
You really don't want to run 26 lands. Replace the Bident with another Dig. That card is nuts.
If the game gets to the point where silence the believers works on a god, you are pretty screwed anyway. And you really don't want to run 4mana removal. Right now, gods aren't that represented in meta. If every other deck was running a god and threatened to animate it readily, running it would definitely be an option. And I'd argue, I'd probably want to try and kill their devotion enablers to turn off the god that way.
you can´t kill, at least not directly, sylvan caryatid, sagu mauler,prognostic sphinx.
So if your opponnent plays sylvan caryatid,bow of nylea,Nylea, God of the Hunt and then some dork, you want to kill the dork?? doesn´t seem right.
Sphinx is not concern with regards to providing god devotion (not right now anyway).
Sagu mauler is an issue and we have trouble dealing with it as it is, I will admit that being able to get rid of Nylea when supported by this creature would be nice, but in current meta this is unlikely to happen too often.
With your suggested line of play I'm, in this order:
a) killing bow with charm as bow is major issue that threatens getting out of hand quickly no matter if supported by a god or not
b) shutting Nylea down with Kiora
c) killing the dork, considering by the time this happens I'm most likely sitting on at least 2 removal spells that I can't use against anything else
d) trying to use double Bile Blight to kill Nylea (which probably isn't happening, but is still entirely possible)
Well, you do have the ability to destroy the Bow with Charm, or you can Aetherspouts Nylea and anything else back to their hand (which helps more if you use counterspells), or you can fog her with Kiora. That is several answers for a situation in which only 1 of their four permanents on board is a threat (which means that you should have card advantage from not needing to answer the others).
If there is a god to worry about I would say it's Keranos in Jeskai decks. No way to answer him and he is a strong source of card advantage.
I understand your point of view. but to me that double bile doesn´t seem right. If you know that something might happen you better be prepared. I mean, it isn´t that weird to play against two sylvan cariatyd, sagu mauler and nylea. Besides it seems better to spend 4 mana in one card rather than 4 mana on two cards. I guess that balance is everything.
As for the Silence the Believers debate, I believe it's a 1-of in the sideboard for specific situations. For 7 mana you get 2 guys, which is nice, but you won't make it to 7 mana unless you're playing against a similarly slow strategy.
All the folks wondering how to deal with problematic creatures...learn to lean. (On Aetherspouts.) It's the best "wipe" we have in these colors.
From what I've seen so far in my playtesting, Sultai Charm is excellent if only for the first and last modes. The "discard 1" is actually hardly a drawback when we're running Dig Through Time and Murderous Cut. The only reason I run 3 instead of 4 is because Hero's Downfall is the better removal option and deserves to be played as a full playset.
U/R Delver
4x Forest
2x Island
3x Opulent Palace
4x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
4x Temple of Malady
4x Temple of Mystery
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Prognostic Sphinx
3x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Dig Through Time
4x Hero's Downfall
1x Silence the Believers
3x Sultai Charm
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
3x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
2x Sign in Blood
4x Thoughtseize
2x Dissolve
4x Drown in Sorrow
1x Liliana Vess
2x Negate
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
2x Pharika's Cure
1x Psychic Intrusion
1x Silence the Believers
here is my deck, i would like to play 4th caryatid but don't know what to shave. also with so much midrange and control looking to be more popular psychic intrusion is going to be awesome! specially in a deck that can ramp.
i don't know whether i want to play aetherspouts or silence the believers, and i love having 3 kiora's so that the first one you play is to get card advantage and ramp is sweet!!
i have cut down on bile blight main cause its average against midrange. im just expecting aggro to die down a little.
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
1x Dismal Backwater
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Opulent Palace
5x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Malady
3x Yavimaya Coast
Creature
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Prognostic Sphinx
4x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Bile Blight
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Murderous Cut
2x Sultai Charm
Planeswalker
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Sorcery
2x Divination
2x Drown in Sorrow
4x Thoughtseize
1x AEtherspouts
1x Bile Blight
2x Dark Betrayal
3x Despise
1x Drown in Sorrow
2x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2x Negate
1x Nylea's Disciple
2x Whip of Erebos
I've been reworking this a little bit for this week and so far it looks like I'll be running this list below.
1x Forest
2x Island
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Opulent Palace
3x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Malady
2x Temple of Mystery
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
4x Courser of Kruphix
3x Prognostic Sphinx
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
2x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Instant
3x Bile Blight
2x Dig Through Time
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Murderous Cut
3x Sultai Charm
Sorcery
4x Thoughtseize
2x AEtherspouts
1x Bile Blight
2x Despise
3x Drown in Sorrow
3x Negate
2x Nylea's Disciple
2x Shipwreck Singer
I would love some of your thoughts on it, possible improvements.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Nissa just slightly worse than the other planeswalkers in this build because of the midrange matchup?
What I like about this deck so far is that it's got a pretty good game against the midranged creature decks, which is where Ashiok and Kiora shine the most. Nissa is obviously very strong, and absolutely absurd against control decks, but isn't the prospect of making 4/4's a little less impressive when they'll be butting heads against Poly-K/Siege Rhino/Sagu Mauler/etc.?
I could be totally off here, and the only real reason I'm not planning on playing Nissa yet is because I'm not willing to shell out $40 for a card that'll drop like a brick after it rotates.
U/R Delver
Aetherspouts is insane. Use it, you'll love it.
Play with her. She keeps making 4/4's which we can leverage against our opponents as our removal will always be better than theirs. Aggro decks have trouble with that too. You basically keep making walls until you can alpha strike.
Some folks don't care for Nissa. I do. I like her alongside Darksteel Citadel a lot.