What do you guys think about the re-animator spells that are available to us? Unlike previous standard sets, reanimation was quite broken. (Griselbrand, Elesh Norn, etc.) We already have the best possible creatures in WBG to reanimate. It becomes a matter of how we cheat them into play.
It's hard deciding between Endless Obedience ,Rescue from the Underworld and See the Unwritten(kind of). From all these decks we can see that we have a total of 4 types of viable reanimator spells for this deck. Whip of Erebos is the staple for reanimator. Lifelink for all your creatures is really great. The tricky part is how many reanimator spells we should run. The top 8 decklists run very variable decklists from just 2 whips to having all of those recursion spells in it.
Is it advisable to run 2 whip, 2 return, and 2 endless obedience? I guess from Minowara's report, See the Unwritten would be at best a sideboard card.(against control? so you don't lose as much as getting a rescue countered) Ramping perfectly onto it sounds great but is that enough to make it maindeck worthy? There could be times that it would be virtually dead with so much mill we run.
I'm still torn on which is best. Rescue the Underworld is nice because it's the only instant speed, so you can not only protect your creature from opposing spells, but you can also do it at the end of their turn. Endless is nice because you can use your Wayfinders and Rhino (if needed) to help get a creature out. This is a big question mark for me.
On another topic, I mentioned that I am not happy with Nyx Weaver. I was looking at some possible replacements, and this is what I came up with:
Anafenza -- strong beater for 3
Abzan Charm -- more control build
Hero's Downfall -- more control build
Banishing Light -- same as above, but what would you want to banish that you couldn't get rid of Hero's Downfall?
Bow of Nylea -- Option 3 is situationally good, Option 1 is curious -- could make better blockers or an attacking mystic/wayfinder
Brimasz -- probably too tough to get double white
Courser -- not sure if this adds much -- just slows down the game
Devouring Light -- neat tech, but again, double white is tough
Gift of Immortality -- interesting, but probably win-more
Herald of Torment -- probably not for this deck
Kruphix's Insight -- mill 6, keep an enchantment
Read the Bones -- nice card draw
Scout the Borders -- another mill card
Not sure people's thoughts on these. Or maybe we just keep Nyx Weaver. I'm leaning towards Abzan Charm or Hero's Downfall, or Anafenza. Wish we could get into blue to play Sultai Charm. It's perfect for this deck.
Anyone tested a 4 color reanimator deck list to use both the Rhino and Sidisi? Maybe that's getting too Frites.....
A four colour variant does sound interesting indeed. But it should be just a splash at most.
Mill that abzan has is really tricky and uncontrollable. Maybe it would be hard to cut Nyx Weaver for this reason because it serves as insurance for what you need at the moment.Did some playtesting earlier and it really shined by fishing out used spells I needed (especially murderous cuts). But a more control-leaning build would be a great point of comparison for the current build as four cuts don't really solve a lot. I personally run 3 cuts and 2 charms and it has been working well so far and I would like to run more but they usually get milled out if they aren't in my opening hand. It would be hard to recur them without the Nyx Weaver.
The brad nelson vs BBD video from SCG premium has just gone online to all! It's from 9/17/14 and BBD is playing valentines exact list. I believe its the first video of the deck being played competitively unless someone else can please prove me wrong and link it :). As with all the vs videos it has a deck tech which is always helpful for explaining how things work for new players etc. Even if this is now a little outdated and the build has evolved a little I think its an excellent video.
Also not sure what the correct protocol is but I'd like to start making this thread into a primer. If anyone has any thoughts, write ups etc they'd like included please post it or message it to me.
Edit: This video pre-dates valentines finish so I suppose BBD made the deck first???
I just went to a tourney again today and went 5-0. Beat two Jeskai decks. Will post a decklist tomorrow, but my initial comment is that Nyx Weaver was switched out, and I didn't miss it once at all. Deck felt much stronger without it.
I just went to a tourney again today and went 5-0. Beat two Jeskai decks. Will post a decklist tomorrow, but my initial comment is that Nyx Weaver was switched out, and I didn't miss it once at all. Deck felt much stronger without it.
Awesome result! Looking forward to your list and any comments/report you post.
Alright, I took this deck again to a standard tourney (18 people) yesterday and had good results. I came in 2nd, though realistically we stopped playing at the top 4 and just split the prizes. The actual record of the played games was 5-0.
Round 1: G/R Monsters 2-0
This was a decently easy game. The mana flowed well and the whip ended games. Planeswalkers die hard and fast to flying hasted creatures from the graveyard. I didn't even sideboard in this matchup.
Round 2: Jeskai Tempo 2-1
In game 1, two siege rhinos was able to finish up the game quickly. He never recovered. Game 2, I just got nothing going, and Stormbreath Dragon just ended me. Game 3, the whip ended things. The opponent brought in counters, but he just didn't have enough, and I landed a whip, and that was about it.
Round 3: Mardu Midrange 2-1
This was an odd matchup. Game 1 he got mana screwed and I crushed him. Game 2 I got mana screwed and he crushed me. So we went to play a real game 3, and I was able to take him down. It didn't put up too much of a fight.
Round 4: Sultai Reanimator 2-1
This was the same opponent I played a few weeks back, and what killed me that day, Nylea, bit it due to Abzan Charm. Game 1 we both got a whip out (long game), but I was able to wear him down faster because he didn't get enough creatures in his yard. Game 2, he wore me out with 3 coursers. Game 3, Duneblast late game finished it quickly.
Round 5: ID into top 8
Top 8:
Round 6: Jeskai Tempo 2-1
Game 1 I got out 3 Rhinos on turns 3, 4, and 5, and he scooped. Game 2, he was to kill me before I really got going. Game 3 went long. He got me down to 2, and next turn I played a Resolute Archangel, going back to 20. He was able to knock me back down to around 8 or so, but finally I pulled another Siege Rhino and killed him.
Board choices for Jeskai -- IN 3x Resolute Archangel, 2x Hero's Downfall OUT 3x Hornet Queen 2x Rescue from the Underworld
Thoughts:
The manabase felt perfect. It was pretty easy to get out a T1 mystic, T2 something else / tap land. I am fully on board with elvish mystic again. It is working great.
The deck was firing on all cylinders. I did not get to do any rescue from the underworlds because they just didn't come up, but I still back the card against most matchups (anything non-blue). It can be a 3 for 1 in response to removal.
As mentioned, I cut Nyx Weaver and added in two Abzan Charms and 1 extra Whip of Erebos. I added in the third whip since I am losing my ability to pull them back from the yard, and it seemed to work fine. There were multiple games where I wasn't upset to draw two either, as opponents prioritize (rightly) countering and removing them. The Abzan Charms were stellar. The exile was huge, especially on Sarkhan and gods (Nylea). I am considering changing the two hero's downfalls in the SB to two more Abzan Charm.
Here are my matchup counts to date (with various iterations):
Mono Red Goblins 1-1, feel better about this with board changes made in last few weeks
Mardu Midrange 4-0, I feel very confident here
Sultai Reanimator 1-0-1, this is a crapshoot, though Duneblast and Garruk in the board should be pretty helpful, if you see them. You will definitely get far enough to have the mana to play them. I don't see any notable boards in for them that help to the extent that our boarding in helps us.
G/R Monsters 2-0, feel good about this
Jeskai Tempo / Aggro, 3-0, not an easy matchup but I definitely feel that we have the advantage
Abzan Aggro / Midrange, -- I have yet to play it and I am concerned about it, mainly all the planeswalkers and the Fleecemain. There are a lot of people bringing it to the tournaments I am attending, but all the other decks out there keep taking them out so I never face them. Need playtesting practice here.
Jeskai Combo -- I think this will be a bad matchup for us, as we don't really have any way to interact with them in the right way. If it gets popular, we can pop Thoughtseize into the board, but this deck is not present in my meta.
Other 1-1, decks that I don't feel will be run into often enough to worry about.
I'm not sure if moving empty the pits to the sideboard is the right move because it can provide an alt win con if you find yourself having no reanimation target/reanimators but with a graveyard full of things to delve with. I feel Abzan Charm improves matchups against aggro and provides a larger range for removal like what was mentioned. (against gods and sarkhan) Resolute Archangel really needs to be mainboard given the speed of the deck though.
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Thanks for this list. I built and playtested and it is undefeated so far, but only after 4 games. I really like the creature suite and the reanimation suite that you have here.
Question: in the midrange "valentines" style lists, which do we think is better and why. see the unwritten,an additional reanimation spell like rescue or obediance, or extra removal like heros downfall or banishing light?
Im currently leaning towards unwritten or banishing light but id like to hear other opinons.
Also, i have no idea why people keep playing sidisi whip over this! Siege rhino is much stronger that sidisi unless your playing an aggro sidisi build which doesnt use hornet queens.
Question: in the midrange "valentines" style lists, which do we think is better and why. see the unwritten,an additional reanimation spell like rescue or obediance, or extra removal like heros downfall or banishing light?
Im currently leaning towards unwritten or banishing light but id like to hear other opinons.
Midrange calls for better or more removal, I'd go with mainboard downfall and sideboard banishing light. enchantment decks aren't really a thing and hero's downfall catches all major threats in standard anyway.
Thanks for this list. I built and playtested and it is undefeated so far, but only after 4 games. I really like the creature suite and the reanimation suite that you have here.
Good to hear! Post your matchups though so we can compare results How has it been working for you so far? Do you run into trouble with only having 5 removal spells? How are the nyx-weavers working for you? Without removal matchups with abzan or jeskai are difficult in my experience
I've been running this list for the past few weeks.
I placed 9th in my StarCity States Tournament with this, I was 1 point from the cut to top 8.
I made top 8/Top 4 on Game Day(I've only won a single Game Day{Its a curse})
A friend suggested Sidisi when I was first building the deck, after the first tourney I played, which was pretty terrible, I made some major changes, including Sidis's addition, and have never turned back.
The only difficult matchups Ive found so far are mono-red aggro and any control variant.
The Jeskai Burn/Aggro deck thats floating around can be annoying, but, if they dont get the nut draw, Ive been able to stabilize. The final match I played at states was against that deck; I got game 1 pretty quick. Game 2, my opponent had a decent start, but, Ran out of gas after getting me to 1 life. I found a whip and started bouncing back. He had one more good shot a couple turns later, pushing me all the way to 3, but, whip saved the day once again by getting me another Rhino, Opponent scooped up after the Rhino hit.
I've been running this list for the past few weeks.
I placed 9th in my StarCity States Tournament with this, I was 1 point from the cut to top 8.
I made top 8/Top 4 on Game Day(I've only won a single Game Day{Its a curse})
A friend suggested Sidisi when I was first building the deck, after the first tourney I played, which was pretty terrible, I made some major changes, including Sidis's addition, and have never turned back.
The only difficult matchups Ive found so far are mono-red aggro and any control variant.
The Jeskai Burn/Aggro deck thats floating around can be annoying, but, if they dont get the nut draw, Ive been able to stabilize. The final match I played at states was against that deck; I got game 1 pretty quick. Game 2, my opponent had a decent start, but, Ran out of gas after getting me to 1 life. I found a whip and started bouncing back. He had one more good shot a couple turns later, pushing me all the way to 3, but, whip saved the day once again by getting me another Rhino, Opponent scooped up after the Rhino hit.
Interesting list. I'm curious if you still feel the 2x sidisi is worth it over say 2x heros downfall or 2x hornet queens. I think Hornet queen is just generally better that overload because of the deathtouch and both will generally get you 4 tokens. I to have been using hornet nest in the SB. How have you found it?
Midrange calls for better or more removal, I'd go with mainboard downfall and sideboard banishing light. enchantment decks aren't really a thing and hero's downfall catches all major threats in standard anyway.
yeah I think the extra removal is better, I like banishing as you can search for it with commune and can hit those damn jeskai ascendancy
Also heads up people, the primer is now being written. If you have any testing notes or whatever message it to me and I'll include it if appropriate.
Good to hear! Post your matchups though so we can compare results How has it been working for you so far? Do you run into trouble with only having 5 removal spells? How are the nyx-weavers working for you? Without removal matchups with abzan or jeskai are difficult in my experience
I have been really busy lately, so I could only play some 1 game matches with the deck so far. Nyx weaver is ok, but I do worry about milling my kill spells when I need to draw one. You just have to trust the deck and let your weavers/satyrs fill up the yard. I am running only 2 murderous cuts and 1 utter end to help deal with planeswalkers/ensouled darksteel citadels.
yeah I think the extra removal is better, I like banishing as you can search for it with commune and can hit those damn jeskai ascendancy
Also heads up people, the primer is now being written. If you have any testing notes or whatever message it to me and I'll include it if appropriate.
Oh, ascendancy is a thing haha. It isn't as big as it is OL in my LGS, but when the time comes I'd run Banishing Light (fetching it with commune is tech) over Hero's downfall.
It's all very dependant with your meta really, even with Abzan Charm and Murderous Cut. I'd like to run 5-6 removal spells for good measure though, since we mill ourselves making every piece of removal count.
I have been really busy lately, so I could only play some 1 game matches with the deck so far. Nyx weaver is ok, but I do worry about milling my kill spells when I need to draw one. You just have to trust the deck and let your weavers/satyrs fill up the yard. I am running only 2 murderous cuts and 1 utter end to help deal with planeswalkers/ensouled darksteel citadels.
Interesting to see how your matchup would go against aggro decks and the like. Nyx Weaver can fish out kill spells you dump though. I'm eagerly waiting for results on this.
I've been running a list like this but without the 4 Commune with the Gods . Can someone explain to me why they are necessary? I've played about 50ish games against 6 or so different decklists from the pro-tour and I seem to get enough in my graveyard with wayfinders, weavers and 2 see the unwrittens
It's just a different way to get cards into the graveyard. I like that it is 2 casting cost (Nyx Weaver is 3 and only dumps 2 cards a turn, and is usually dead before you get to dump any cards, and See the Unwritten costs 6). I also like that you can pull an enchantment, so it allows me to dig for a Whip. Do note that the version I am running only plays 3 Communes though.
Pretty decent. I've maintained a 2:1 ratio against the jeskai tokens deck, a few variants of rabble and the abzan midrange. roughly a 50:50 against "jeskai wins" and a bit under 50:50 to black/blue control. Maybe it's just me, but most of my few wins against control were by wearing them down with satyrs and mystics, everything else just gets countered. I'll put up a decklist in a bit, but I think I'm going to test with communes. The upside of running a few see the unwrittens though is that sweet turn 4 double fatty off a turn 3 rhino. Obviously it doesnt happen much, but when it does its glorious
I've been running a list like this but without the 4 Commune with the Gods . Can someone explain to me why they are necessary? I've played about 50ish games against 6 or so different decklists from the pro-tour and I seem to get enough in my graveyard with wayfinders, weavers and 2 see the unwrittens
They're wayfinders 4-8 and so you have more chanes for fishing enchantments as minowara said. (could be banishing light if you're running that though)
What fatties do run? If you don't run a Necropolis Fiend then you wouldn't have the need for communes.
See the unwritten sounds awesome and is amazing in theory and I'd like to try it out.
How do you wear out abzan decks? They have a ton of removal and disruption which is pretty hard to deal with.
Honestly, see the unwritten is a star against midrange. If you can ever land an ashen rider or resolute archangel around the 5-6 turn mark, you are in pretty good stead. Unfortunately though, a lot of it comes down to who draws more rhinos in the first few turns.
Oh and I much prefer rescue from the underworld to endless obedience in that matchup. Saving creatures and recurring ETB effects is just so good
Hi, I'm new to the thread. As I cannot afford fetchlands, I would like to help people do somework on the more budget side of this deck. I will be starting with Tolarian Community College's build.
I am a little concerned over the amount of lands and how it might be lacking. Rattleclaw Mystic obviously isn't the best either, but it'll do.
In terms of decks as a whole, I think Resolute Archangel is a must, especially if Jeskai and Boss Sligh keep running around. It is the ultimate stabilizer. I also think that See the Unwritten is insane too. Against other midrange decks, it can almost be the equivalent value of 2 extra turns. It is too good to pass up.
How has Ashen Rider been proforming? Would you guys prefer it over Hero's Downfall the majority of the time?
I think that it may actually be underperforming for me. Yes, it is an amazing finisher, but I don't think it is NEARLY as good as Archangel or Hornet Queen. Archangel can make some games out of hand your opponents when you are on the edge of losing (Jeskai and Boss Sligh). Ashen Rider is a 1-for-1 killer. Hornet Queen, however, is more like a 5-for-1. It immediately stops attacking and can take care of multiple fatties (Abzan and Mardu). Ashen Rider can destroy permanents other than creatures, but I don't feel as there are that many other permanents that we need a reanimate target to take care of.
How do people feel about the Blue-Black control matchup? The odds are probably not in our favor both pre and post board but I'm wondering if there's anything we can do to try and even the them.
I think putting Fleecemane Lion and Rakshasa Deathdealer, and potentially Anafenza in the sideboard would help us a lot. Empty the Pitts might also be something to think about if you can manage it while the opponent is tapped out.
In general I'm just curious if anyone knows how to play this matchup? I keep stumbling every time I play it. I'm really having trouble figuring out how to play around counterspells. I don't know if I should try and play multiple threats a turn to try and stick something, or if I should try playing around Perilous Vault. Should I play Thoughtseize? Should I board out all the big threats like Hornet Queen and Ashen Rider? Should I not board out removal to try and use it on one of my own zombies via Empty the Pits against Bile Blight?
All these seem like viable lines of play I'm just not sure which are correct.
How has Ashen Rider been proforming? Would you guys prefer it over Hero's Downfall the majority of the time?
Ashen Rider is great. I run 2 and probably hard cast it half the time and reanimate half the time. It is usually the end of the game and breaks nearly all stalled-boards. A whipped Ashen Rider can take out 2 huge threats in one turn (entry and on attack (planeswalker)).
I'm not even considering dropping them. In a lot of games its better than Hornet Queen.
To another poster: I agree that Resolute Archangel is great. But with how midrangy many of the games I run into can be, Ashen Rider can break a stalled board, whereas Resolute Archangel is a bad cast when I'm near 20 life and doesn't dramatically affect board state. I carry 3 Archangels in my sideboard, but I don't think they replace the main deck Ashen Riders.
To another poster: I have no experience against control, but I am worried about the matchup. I think getting and sticking a Whip is a huge problem, as they have to get rid of each creature twice, and we can easily fill our yard to keep whipping things out. Without a whip, I imagine it's much more difficult, but we have more threats than they have counters / clears, so something will get through, I would think.
It's hard deciding between Endless Obedience ,Rescue from the Underworld and See the Unwritten(kind of). From all these decks we can see that we have a total of 4 types of viable reanimator spells for this deck. Whip of Erebos is the staple for reanimator. Lifelink for all your creatures is really great. The tricky part is how many reanimator spells we should run. The top 8 decklists run very variable decklists from just 2 whips to having all of those recursion spells in it.
Is it advisable to run 2 whip, 2 return, and 2 endless obedience? I guess from Minowara's report, See the Unwritten would be at best a sideboard card.(against control? so you don't lose as much as getting a rescue countered) Ramping perfectly onto it sounds great but is that enough to make it maindeck worthy? There could be times that it would be virtually dead with so much mill we run.
On another topic, I mentioned that I am not happy with Nyx Weaver. I was looking at some possible replacements, and this is what I came up with:
Anafenza -- strong beater for 3
Abzan Charm -- more control build
Hero's Downfall -- more control build
Banishing Light -- same as above, but what would you want to banish that you couldn't get rid of Hero's Downfall?
Bow of Nylea -- Option 3 is situationally good, Option 1 is curious -- could make better blockers or an attacking mystic/wayfinder
Brimasz -- probably too tough to get double white
Courser -- not sure if this adds much -- just slows down the game
Devouring Light -- neat tech, but again, double white is tough
Gift of Immortality -- interesting, but probably win-more
Herald of Torment -- probably not for this deck
Kruphix's Insight -- mill 6, keep an enchantment
Read the Bones -- nice card draw
Scout the Borders -- another mill card
Not sure people's thoughts on these. Or maybe we just keep Nyx Weaver. I'm leaning towards Abzan Charm or Hero's Downfall, or Anafenza. Wish we could get into blue to play Sultai Charm. It's perfect for this deck.
Anyone tested a 4 color reanimator deck list to use both the Rhino and Sidisi? Maybe that's getting too Frites.....
Mill that abzan has is really tricky and uncontrollable. Maybe it would be hard to cut Nyx Weaver for this reason because it serves as insurance for what you need at the moment.Did some playtesting earlier and it really shined by fishing out used spells I needed (especially murderous cuts). But a more control-leaning build would be a great point of comparison for the current build as four cuts don't really solve a lot. I personally run 3 cuts and 2 charms and it has been working well so far and I would like to run more but they usually get milled out if they aren't in my opening hand. It would be hard to recur them without the Nyx Weaver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8YxDq5XD_k
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29354_Brad-VS-BBD-BW-Aggro-VS-Junk-Reanimator.html
Also not sure what the correct protocol is but I'd like to start making this thread into a primer. If anyone has any thoughts, write ups etc they'd like included please post it or message it to me.
Edit: This video pre-dates valentines finish so I suppose BBD made the deck first???
Awesome result! Looking forward to your list and any comments/report you post.
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Siege Rhino
3x Hornet Queen
2x Ashen Rider
2x Necropolis Fiend
Other - 14
2x Rescue from the Underworld
2x Endless Obedience
3x Whip of Erebos
2x Murderous Cut
3x Commune with the Gods
2x Abzan Charm
4x Windswept Heath
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
1x Temple of Malady
1x Temple of Silence
2x Temple of Plenty
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Caves of Koilos
4x Llanowar Wastes
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
2x Duneblast
3x Resolute Archangel
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Bile Blight
1x Nyxfleece Ram
2x Reclamation Sage
The matches:
Round 1: G/R Monsters 2-0
This was a decently easy game. The mana flowed well and the whip ended games. Planeswalkers die hard and fast to flying hasted creatures from the graveyard. I didn't even sideboard in this matchup.
Round 2: Jeskai Tempo 2-1
In game 1, two siege rhinos was able to finish up the game quickly. He never recovered. Game 2, I just got nothing going, and Stormbreath Dragon just ended me. Game 3, the whip ended things. The opponent brought in counters, but he just didn't have enough, and I landed a whip, and that was about it.
Round 3: Mardu Midrange 2-1
This was an odd matchup. Game 1 he got mana screwed and I crushed him. Game 2 I got mana screwed and he crushed me. So we went to play a real game 3, and I was able to take him down. It didn't put up too much of a fight.
Round 4: Sultai Reanimator 2-1
This was the same opponent I played a few weeks back, and what killed me that day, Nylea, bit it due to Abzan Charm. Game 1 we both got a whip out (long game), but I was able to wear him down faster because he didn't get enough creatures in his yard. Game 2, he wore me out with 3 coursers. Game 3, Duneblast late game finished it quickly.
Round 5: ID into top 8
Top 8:
Round 6: Jeskai Tempo 2-1
Game 1 I got out 3 Rhinos on turns 3, 4, and 5, and he scooped. Game 2, he was to kill me before I really got going. Game 3 went long. He got me down to 2, and next turn I played a Resolute Archangel, going back to 20. He was able to knock me back down to around 8 or so, but finally I pulled another Siege Rhino and killed him.
Board choices for Jeskai -- IN 3x Resolute Archangel, 2x Hero's Downfall OUT 3x Hornet Queen 2x Rescue from the Underworld
Thoughts:
The manabase felt perfect. It was pretty easy to get out a T1 mystic, T2 something else / tap land. I am fully on board with elvish mystic again. It is working great.
The deck was firing on all cylinders. I did not get to do any rescue from the underworlds because they just didn't come up, but I still back the card against most matchups (anything non-blue). It can be a 3 for 1 in response to removal.
As mentioned, I cut Nyx Weaver and added in two Abzan Charms and 1 extra Whip of Erebos. I added in the third whip since I am losing my ability to pull them back from the yard, and it seemed to work fine. There were multiple games where I wasn't upset to draw two either, as opponents prioritize (rightly) countering and removing them. The Abzan Charms were stellar. The exile was huge, especially on Sarkhan and gods (Nylea). I am considering changing the two hero's downfalls in the SB to two more Abzan Charm.
Here are my matchup counts to date (with various iterations):
Mono Red Goblins 1-1, feel better about this with board changes made in last few weeks
Mardu Midrange 4-0, I feel very confident here
Sultai Reanimator 1-0-1, this is a crapshoot, though Duneblast and Garruk in the board should be pretty helpful, if you see them. You will definitely get far enough to have the mana to play them. I don't see any notable boards in for them that help to the extent that our boarding in helps us.
G/R Monsters 2-0, feel good about this
Jeskai Tempo / Aggro, 3-0, not an easy matchup but I definitely feel that we have the advantage
Abzan Aggro / Midrange, -- I have yet to play it and I am concerned about it, mainly all the planeswalkers and the Fleecemain. There are a lot of people bringing it to the tournaments I am attending, but all the other decks out there keep taking them out so I never face them. Need playtesting practice here.
Jeskai Combo -- I think this will be a bad matchup for us, as we don't really have any way to interact with them in the right way. If it gets popular, we can pop Thoughtseize into the board, but this deck is not present in my meta.
Other 1-1, decks that I don't feel will be run into often enough to worry about.
Now 12-2-1 over the past 3 weeks.
Thanks for this list. I built and playtested and it is undefeated so far, but only after 4 games. I really like the creature suite and the reanimation suite that you have here.
Im currently leaning towards unwritten or banishing light but id like to hear other opinons.
Also, i have no idea why people keep playing sidisi whip over this! Siege rhino is much stronger that sidisi unless your playing an aggro sidisi build which doesnt use hornet queens.
Midrange calls for better or more removal, I'd go with mainboard downfall and sideboard banishing light. enchantment decks aren't really a thing and hero's downfall catches all major threats in standard anyway.
Good to hear! Post your matchups though so we can compare results How has it been working for you so far? Do you run into trouble with only having 5 removal spells? How are the nyx-weavers working for you? Without removal matchups with abzan or jeskai are difficult in my experience
I placed 9th in my StarCity States Tournament with this, I was 1 point from the cut to top 8.
I made top 8/Top 4 on Game Day(I've only won a single Game Day{Its a curse})
A friend suggested Sidisi when I was first building the deck, after the first tourney I played, which was pretty terrible, I made some major changes, including Sidis's addition, and have never turned back.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Siege Rhino
2 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Hornet Queen
2 Ashen Rider
Spells
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Endless Obedience
1 See the Unwritten
1 Empty the Pits
3 Whip of Erebos
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Mana Confluence
2 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept heath
3 forest
3 Swamp
3 Plains
3 Hornet Nest
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Doomwake Giant
1 Resolute Archangel
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Hornet Queen
3 Banishing Light
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
The only difficult matchups Ive found so far are mono-red aggro and any control variant.
The Jeskai Burn/Aggro deck thats floating around can be annoying, but, if they dont get the nut draw, Ive been able to stabilize. The final match I played at states was against that deck; I got game 1 pretty quick. Game 2, my opponent had a decent start, but, Ran out of gas after getting me to 1 life. I found a whip and started bouncing back. He had one more good shot a couple turns later, pushing me all the way to 3, but, whip saved the day once again by getting me another Rhino, Opponent scooped up after the Rhino hit.
Ive been thinking more about maindecking a Resolute Archangel and Abhorrent Overlord, but, Im not sure what I'd cut for them.
Interesting list. I'm curious if you still feel the 2x sidisi is worth it over say 2x heros downfall or 2x hornet queens. I think Hornet queen is just generally better that overload because of the deathtouch and both will generally get you 4 tokens. I to have been using hornet nest in the SB. How have you found it?
yeah I think the extra removal is better, I like banishing as you can search for it with commune and can hit those damn jeskai ascendancy
Also heads up people, the primer is now being written. If you have any testing notes or whatever message it to me and I'll include it if appropriate.
I have been really busy lately, so I could only play some 1 game matches with the deck so far. Nyx weaver is ok, but I do worry about milling my kill spells when I need to draw one. You just have to trust the deck and let your weavers/satyrs fill up the yard. I am running only 2 murderous cuts and 1 utter end to help deal with planeswalkers/ensouled darksteel citadels.
Oh, ascendancy is a thing haha. It isn't as big as it is OL in my LGS, but when the time comes I'd run Banishing Light (fetching it with commune is tech) over Hero's downfall.
It's all very dependant with your meta really, even with Abzan Charm and Murderous Cut. I'd like to run 5-6 removal spells for good measure though, since we mill ourselves making every piece of removal count.
Interesting to see how your matchup would go against aggro decks and the like. Nyx Weaver can fish out kill spells you dump though. I'm eagerly waiting for results on this.
It's just a different way to get cards into the graveyard. I like that it is 2 casting cost (Nyx Weaver is 3 and only dumps 2 cards a turn, and is usually dead before you get to dump any cards, and See the Unwritten costs 6). I also like that you can pull an enchantment, so it allows me to dig for a Whip. Do note that the version I am running only plays 3 Communes though.
How has your playtesting gone?
They're wayfinders 4-8 and so you have more chanes for fishing enchantments as minowara said. (could be banishing light if you're running that though)
What fatties do run? If you don't run a Necropolis Fiend then you wouldn't have the need for communes.
See the unwritten sounds awesome and is amazing in theory and I'd like to try it out.
How do you wear out abzan decks? They have a ton of removal and disruption which is pretty hard to deal with.
Oh and I much prefer rescue from the underworld to endless obedience in that matchup. Saving creatures and recurring ETB effects is just so good
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Nyx Weaver
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Endless Obedience
3 Hornet Queen
2 Resolute Archangel
1 Ashen Rider
1 See the Unwritten
1 Empty the Pits
2 Murderous Cut
2 Banishing Light
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Blossoming Sands
3 Jungle Hollow
5 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Plains
I am a little concerned over the amount of lands and how it might be lacking. Rattleclaw Mystic obviously isn't the best either, but it'll do.
In terms of decks as a whole, I think Resolute Archangel is a must, especially if Jeskai and Boss Sligh keep running around. It is the ultimate stabilizer. I also think that See the Unwritten is insane too. Against other midrange decks, it can almost be the equivalent value of 2 extra turns. It is too good to pass up.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
I think that it may actually be underperforming for me. Yes, it is an amazing finisher, but I don't think it is NEARLY as good as Archangel or Hornet Queen. Archangel can make some games out of hand your opponents when you are on the edge of losing (Jeskai and Boss Sligh). Ashen Rider is a 1-for-1 killer. Hornet Queen, however, is more like a 5-for-1. It immediately stops attacking and can take care of multiple fatties (Abzan and Mardu). Ashen Rider can destroy permanents other than creatures, but I don't feel as there are that many other permanents that we need a reanimate target to take care of.
I think putting Fleecemane Lion and Rakshasa Deathdealer, and potentially Anafenza in the sideboard would help us a lot. Empty the Pitts might also be something to think about if you can manage it while the opponent is tapped out.
In general I'm just curious if anyone knows how to play this matchup? I keep stumbling every time I play it. I'm really having trouble figuring out how to play around counterspells. I don't know if I should try and play multiple threats a turn to try and stick something, or if I should try playing around Perilous Vault. Should I play Thoughtseize? Should I board out all the big threats like Hornet Queen and Ashen Rider? Should I not board out removal to try and use it on one of my own zombies via Empty the Pits against Bile Blight?
All these seem like viable lines of play I'm just not sure which are correct.
Ashen Rider is great. I run 2 and probably hard cast it half the time and reanimate half the time. It is usually the end of the game and breaks nearly all stalled-boards. A whipped Ashen Rider can take out 2 huge threats in one turn (entry and on attack (planeswalker)).
I'm not even considering dropping them. In a lot of games its better than Hornet Queen.
To another poster: I agree that Resolute Archangel is great. But with how midrangy many of the games I run into can be, Ashen Rider can break a stalled board, whereas Resolute Archangel is a bad cast when I'm near 20 life and doesn't dramatically affect board state. I carry 3 Archangels in my sideboard, but I don't think they replace the main deck Ashen Riders.
To another poster: I have no experience against control, but I am worried about the matchup. I think getting and sticking a Whip is a huge problem, as they have to get rid of each creature twice, and we can easily fill our yard to keep whipping things out. Without a whip, I imagine it's much more difficult, but we have more threats than they have counters / clears, so something will get through, I would think.