I ran Valentines list (swapping Empty for the second Ashen Rider) at FNM last week and split finals after 4 rounds. In round 3, I managed to hard cast a resolute archangel at 5 life vs Jeskai Tempo to steal the game.
What do people think of her in the main board, for those that have done so?
I find See the Unwritten very appealing, but you definitely need to up your top end count.
I'd like to try something like this at FNM next week:
Basically, I think that resolute is enough of a beating to try in the main deck, and I like see the unwritten because it's easy to get 4 power with rhino, and it allows us to take some of the pressure off of GY hate, if it becomes more prevalent, and certainly off of enchantment hate.
I will say the one thing I think Valentine just about nailed was the manabase. He said he'd run the 4th heath, and thus, there it is, cutting a temple of plenty.
Interesting deck list! Im going to give this a playtest. I was wondering what happens if we start with an Ashen rider or another high cost creatures in our hand. Is it stuck there or is hard casting possible? The modern reanimator deck has a cool way to discard cards from your hand but there doesn't look like theres any option in standard except for Necromancer's stockpile
Nice list exallium, I think Resolute Archangel deserves a mainboard spot because it offsets the slow start that this decks suffers. Given that though how are the Elvish Mystics working for you? Are they worth keeping? Do they perform any significant amount of mana acceleration? I currently run a list without mystics and I'm wondering if it's a mistake taking them out given as Temur Monsters absolutely smashes this deck cause they can match our monsters. I really wish that I had an Archangel at that time.
Interesting deck list! Im going to give this a playtest. I was wondering what happens if we start with an Ashen rider or another high cost creatures in our hand. Is it stuck there or is hard casting possible? The modern reanimator deck has a cool way to discard cards from your hand but there doesn't look like theres any option in standard except for Necromancer's stockpile
Erebos's Emissary also allows you to discard, but it means playing a rather subpar creature.
Interesting deck list! Im going to give this a playtest. I was wondering what happens if we start with an Ashen rider or another high cost creatures in our hand. Is it stuck there or is hard casting possible? The modern reanimator deck has a cool way to discard cards from your hand but there doesn't look like theres any option in standard except for Necromancer's stockpile
Erebos's Emissary also allows you to discard, but it means playing a rather subpar creature.
I guess the play here is to build a lot of ramp (hence the elves and caryatids) to allow you to hardcast whatever bomb you draw by accident.
Interesting deck list! Im going to give this a playtest. I was wondering what happens if we start with an Ashen rider or another high cost creatures in our hand. Is it stuck there or is hard casting possible? The modern reanimator deck has a cool way to discard cards from your hand but there doesn't look like theres any option in standard except for Necromancer's stockpile
Erebos's Emissary also allows you to discard, but it means playing a rather subpar creature.
I guess the play here is to build a lot of ramp (hence the elves and caryatids) to allow you to hardcast whatever bomb you draw by accident.
I actually started off with the mystic-less build. It's really slow IMO and you would have a hard time if you draw something you'd rather reanimate. The deck becomes much more grindy and control-like.
I could see that. I always played 4x mystic and 4x courser in my Golgari dredge for the same reason. Nothing like answering their on curve polukranos with a hard cast shadowborn demon.
The deck feels slightly threat light. Rakshasa Deathdealer helps sultai dredge, maybe they could play a role here?
I agree, the earliest threat that this deck can put out is a turn 3 Rhino and even that requires at least two basics/fetches, a dork, and a black source. Given the deck's shell and reanimation conditions i don't think the deck can be played any faster and we should opt to focus on board control 'til we can drop out threats through removal.
Two drops feel very midrange but Rakshasa Deathdealer is great as it scales over the game and is a great blocker with its regen. This needs testing, what could we cut for it though? Definitely not the dorks nor the mill. Could be a two-of or three-of at most
Nice list exallium, I think Resolute Archangel deserves a mainboard spot because it offsets the slow start that this decks suffers. Given that though how are the Elvish Mystics working for you? Are they worth keeping? Do they perform any significant amount of mana acceleration? I currently run a list without mystics and I'm wondering if it's a mistake taking them out given as Temur Monsters absolutely smashes this deck cause they can match our monsters. I really wish that I had an Archangel at that time.
I find mystics are much more important once you get up to turn 4 and 5. You want to be hitting 6-8 mana consistently with this deck, because it means you no longer need to rely on whip to do the work for you. Being able to t1-> mystic t2-> caryatid t3-> rhino t4-> unwritten into 2 beaters is not outside the realm of possibility, but is only possible with mystic. Not to mention, if you're casting your ashen riders, you're getting your full value if they stick.
I've definitely had games when you have a few beaters trapped in your hand, and just can't get there manawise, so I wouldn't want to cut down on the mystics. If anything, I'd consider cutting a beater for the 4th Nyx Weaver to help continue to fill the yard and gain advantage out of my opponent's removal, grabbing back useful spells and getting to use them again.
Archangel is going to be a staple this standard season. Pick your set up now while they're so cheap. This format is more than slow enough for you to get to 7 mana even vs aggro decks, as long as you come prepared, and this card is the nail in the coffin. Also singlehandedly won me a game vs Jeskai Tempo because apparently a 15 point lifeswing is a big deal.
For those interested, I opted to cut Fiend because I want every high-cost creature in the deck to be high-impact, and do something the second they hit the board. Fiend just wasn't doing it for me.
[quote from="glenoidfossa »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/573985-abzan-reanimator?comment=29"]
For those interested, I opted to cut Fiend because I want every high-cost creature in the deck to be high-impact, and do something the second they hit the board. Fiend just wasn't doing it for me.
This is actually a really good point. Come into play abilities are super important right now, because one turn is huge in the meta right now.
That said, Fiend is rarely high cost (cc), which should be considered when deciding what to cut and swap.
I kind of agree with fiend after playtesting him a few games beforehand. He kind of competes with Murderous Cut and Empty the Pits if you are running either of those. I took my list to FNM recently and it looked like this.
I was kind of just putting the sideboard together out of nowhere, but my LGS did have b/w aggro and jeskai hence the downfall and drown. Despise was in there for the same reason and for mardu midrange as well. Duneblast was supposedly for mirror or grindy matchups and utter end, abzan charm, and banishing light for things that I wouldn't expect. I went 2-1 as we only went three rounds due to the shop being relatively new. My matchups were with B/W aggro and 2 Jeskai decks. I lost in the second round. I'll post a summary of each below. Playing this deck was satisfying but I can't get a proper feel of it yet as I'll explain after the matchups.
Round 1 - B/W Aggro: I was caught off-guard game one as my opponent had an explosive start. I couldn't catch up and he just exiled my threats with Banishing Light. Eventually i folded to a board filled with his creatures followed up by a Mogis' Marauder. G2 I managed to drop a turn three rhino. I kept taking hits fast but I managed to drop my mainboard Resolute Archangel. After that it was smooth sailing til I dropped a Hornet Queen and then Empty the Pits for 12 tokens. Game three went a bit faster as I landed two consecutive rhinos, it was game after that as he ran out of gas.
Round 2- Jeskai Tempo: I lost both games this round. Both games were close matches. It was unbelievable during game one, I had him cornered and he won out of nowhere with Narset's trigger followed up by stoke and howl of the horde dealing 12. Game two I had established my board but he got in for the kill as I tried to race him which was probably a mistake on my part. I got to despise both his rabblemasters in the first 3 turns. He follows up with two topdecked Mantis Riders which I just can't race. I should have boarded in BOTH drowns and hero's downfall. I kept on topdecking land with no threats as he got to banish my siege rhino. I feel 24 lands with 7 dorks is too much. Game one leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.
Round 3- Jeskai Tempo: I went 2-1 here like in the first round. Lost game one because I didn't have enough removal and my threats were too slow. Boarded in despise and hero's downfall along with drown in sorrow. Won game two on the back of two siege rhinos and a hornet queen. He scooped a a turn after dropping the hornet because he didn't have enough burn to clear a path for his threats at that point. Same goes for game 3, a turn 3 siege rhino is really backbreaking for a tempo deck. He managed to get out a mantis rider but it got cut down fast with murderous cut. I didn't have removal but a second siege rhino followed through and his Master of the Way was just too late.
Overall I think I've changed my mind on how this deck should work; at this point it can either be a quick play ramp deck with a secondary win con for reanimating OR it can be a reanimator deck which plays mid-range (and cuts the mystics) that's closer to control. If one plays it like the latter then it would be essentially abzan midrange with a whip and you would have to change up a lot of the cards in here.
But in its current form this deck's key weakness is speed. A lot of other decks pump out threats by turn 3/4 and this deck barely does just that without the 8 mana dorks. I feel like I'll run See the unwritten as exallium makes a good point about it. Will definitely have to test more. Also if you do run 8 dorks, 24 lands seem to be a lot. I really could have fought back during my second game in the round with Jeskai that I lost. Maybe 23 will do? I need help with this though. Any suggestions for this? More painlands seem to be a reasonable answer but it punishes you if you don't play around it.
Also,you guys were right about mainboard Resolute Archangel, that card can really save you in a pinch and is way better than Necropolis Fiend. Bouncing back with this is really great as your opponents would sometimes tap out and leave themselves open too attack. Unfortunately the deck does seem to need more removal. Any suggestions guys? Especially about the sideboard. I'm looking forward to tweaking and improving this deck for future matchups.
I kind of agree with fiend after playtesting him a few games beforehand. He kind of competes with Murderous Cut and Empty the Pits if you are running either of those. I took my list to FNM recently and it looked like this.
I was kind of just putting the sideboard together out of nowhere, but my LGS did have b/w aggro and jeskai hence the downfall and drown. Despise was in there for the same reason and for mardu midrange as well. Duneblast was supposedly for mirror or grindy matchups and utter end, abzan charm, and banishing light for things that I wouldn't expect. I went 2-1 as we only went three rounds due to the shop being relatively new. My matchups were with B/W aggro and 2 Jeskai decks. I lost in the second round. I'll post a summary of each below. Playing this deck was satisfying but I can't get a proper feel of it yet as I'll explain after the matchups.
Round 1 - B/W Aggro: I was caught off-guard game one as my opponent had an explosive start. I couldn't catch up and he just exiled my threats with Banishing Light. Eventually i folded to a board filled with his creatures followed up by a Mogis' Marauder. G2 I managed to drop a turn three rhino. I kept taking hits fast but I managed to drop my mainboard Resolute Archangel. After that it was smooth sailing til I dropped a Hornet Queen and then Empty the Pits for 12 tokens. Game three went a bit faster as I landed two consecutive rhinos, it was game after that as he ran out of gas.
Round 2- Jeskai Tempo: I lost both games this round. Both games were close matches. It was unbelievable during game one, I had him cornered and he won out of nowhere with Narset's trigger followed up by stoke and howl of the horde dealing 12. Game two I had established my board but he got in for the kill as I tried to race him which was probably a mistake on my part. I got to despise both his rabblemasters in the first 3 turns. He follows up with two topdecked Mantis Riders which I just can't race. I should have boarded in BOTH drowns and hero's downfall. I kept on topdecking land with no threats as he got to banish my siege rhino. I feel 24 lands with 7 dorks is too much. Game one leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.
Round 3- Jeskai Tempo: I went 2-1 here like in the first round. Lost game one because I didn't have enough removal and my threats were too slow. Boarded in despise and hero's downfall along with drown in sorrow. Won game two on the back of two siege rhinos and a hornet queen. He scooped a a turn after dropping the hornet because he didn't have enough burn to clear a path for his threats at that point. Same goes for game 3, a turn 3 siege rhino is really backbreaking for a tempo deck. He managed to get out a mantis rider but it got cut down fast with murderous cut. I didn't have removal but a second siege rhino followed through and his Master of the Way was just too late.
Overall I think I've changed my mind on how this deck should work; at this point it can either be a quick play ramp deck with a secondary win con for reanimating OR it can be a reanimator deck which plays mid-range (and cuts the mystics) that's closer to control. If one plays it like the latter then it would be essentially abzan midrange with a whip and you would have to change up a lot of the cards in here.
But in its current form this deck's key weakness is speed. A lot of other decks pump out threats by turn 3/4 and this deck barely does just that without the 8 mana dorks. I feel like I'll run See the unwritten as exallium makes a good point about it. Will definitely have to test more. Also if you do run 8 dorks, 24 lands seem to be a lot. I really could have fought back during my second game in the round with Jeskai that I lost. Maybe 23 will do? I need help with this though. Any suggestions for this? More painlands seem to be a reasonable answer but it punishes you if you don't play around it.
Also,you guys were right about mainboard Resolute Archangel, that card can really save you in a pinch and is way better than Necropolis Fiend. Bouncing back with this is really great as your opponents would sometimes tap out and leave themselves open too attack. Unfortunately the deck does seem to need more removal. Any suggestions guys? Especially about the sideboard. I'm looking forward to tweaking and improving this deck for future matchups.
When we're playing against an aggro deck, it's really important to know our role as the control deck, not as the aggro deck. As long as we can stave them off, get value out of drowns or blights if they're played, and get down a Siege Rhino, we can start to stabilize. After that, we can start pressuring them with Queen, and ultimately resolute archangel our way to victory. A flying 4/4 is bad enough for them. Tack on gaining 10-15 life, and it's game over. Resolute Archangel makes our life less of a valuable resource, because it's such a huge upswing. Furthermore, the lifegain we're getting off rhino negates at least one attacking creature. Mix in whip, and it's unlikely they can come back.
Same with Jeskai Tempo. The deck is amazing, but as long as we're gaining a significant amount of life, they won't be able to kill us and we'll run them over.
Being slow in this format isn't a big deal, as we are more than able to make up for it.
If you want to remove a land, add a nyx-weaver. That card is ridiculously good in this deck.
As for removal, I definitely recommend the full set of Downfalls. If you have an aggro heavy meta, consider another drown or blight (which also kills rider). If you have people running monsters, Elspeth is a beating. Duneblast seems very good here as well, though I like being able to translate into a more conventional grindy control deck if needed, and those tokens can and will kill people, or allow you to survive long enough to curve out into your top end.
I ran 23 lands with 8 mana dorks and I felt comfortable with it.
Something Glen wrote I disagree with --
"Overall I think I've changed my mind on how this deck should work; at this point it can either be a quick play ramp deck with a secondary win con for reanimating OR it can be a reanimator deck which plays mid-range (and cuts the mystics) that's closer to control. If one plays it like the latter then it would be essentially abzan midrange with a whip and you would have to change up a lot of the cards in here. "
I play mine like a real reanimator deck, moreso than the recent decks posted, since I run 2x Whip 2x Rescue from the Underworld and 1x Endless Obedience. I'm thinking of even upping that 6 and cutting See the Unwritten. I don't think that going the reanimator way with this deck is just going more Abzan midrange with a whip. If you're reanimating, you want high-value targets, and Ashen Rider and Hornet Queen and Resolute Archangel are key. Why would I reanimate a Polykranos when I can reanimate an Ashen Rider? I think to play this deck as a real reanimator deck actually takes it further away from Abzan midrange.
Necromancer's stockpile was awful and its being cut asap, either for an endless obedience or another empty the pits. Rescue from the underworld was an all star. Being able to turn 4 Sac a caryatid and get back an ashen rider or a rhino felt really good and the instant speed let me hold up Abzan Charms. Abzan charm felt really good. Rarely did i ever need to kill anything with less than 3 power and being an exile it let me get rid of a pesky Sarkhan as well. I wasn't running Elvish Mystics to fit more spells into the deck. I'm not running a whole lot of 3's I need to have 3 mana on turn 2 for and i much preferred turn 1 to drop a tapped land. Caryatid on 2 let me drop whip or rhino on turn 4 easily or let me use my turn 3 to wayfinder and commune. Empty the pits was AMAZING every time i saw it and i might try and find space for a second one. Nyx weaver was great. Blocked early, got the milling in early and mid-late game he could turn into another card. I had one time where i end of the opponents turn nyx weavered for an empty the pits and then emptied the pits for 13.
As for the sideboard, I never sided in the bile blights, as the drown in sorrows were usually just better. I could see dropping them and upping the drown in sorrow's to 3, but we'll see how the metagame sets up with jeskai tempo doing well this weekend. I may need bile blights for mantis riders. Duneblast was great against the midrange matchup. I got to 8 mana fairly easily and being able to keep a rhino or ashen rider off of the blast was good. I could have used some banishing lights through the night and i could see finding space for them.
This list and your report are very promising I pulled two empty the pits in prerelease and a 3rd last week and only had use for 1 in edh and now I have a good use for the other 2.
What would you cut to mainboard banishing lights? & would a hornet nest possibly be a good idea to pair nicely with the queen? Or maybe to slow or just wrong for this deck?
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Thanks for the feedback, I guess I'm just not used to how decks are played because I just played standard recently again. I can't imagine what to side out in aggro matchups though. Do we take out the dorks (mystics)? We certainly cannot take the bombs out.
Also I was actually thinking of cutting Pharika with another Nyx Weaver, I'll play that out next week and see what happens. Temur/monsters didn't really show up but i'm torn between duneblast and elspeth since they cost nearly the same and we can ramp into either anyway. I called the sideboard wrong too, I definitely needed more bile blights. They seem better but I think I'd run a 3-2 split between drown and bile blights. How do we sideboard, btw? Swap out dorks for removal?
I ran 23 lands with 8 mana dorks and I felt comfortable with it.
I play mine like a real reanimator deck, moreso than the recent decks posted, since I run 2x Whip 2x Rescue from the Underworld and 1x Endless Obedience. I'm thinking of even upping that 6 and cutting See the Unwritten. I don't think that going the reanimator way with this deck is just going more Abzan midrange with a whip. If you're reanimating, you want high-value targets, and Ashen Rider and Hornet Queen and Resolute Archangel are key. Why would I reanimate a Polykranos when I can reanimate an Ashen Rider? I think to play this deck as a real reanimator deck actually takes it further away from Abzan midrange.
Maybe I'll cut one land since it would be redundant and drawing into one late game wouldn't really help us. I was actually thinking that if you'd go full reanimator you would skip on the ramp and would run more removal/board control and reanimation spells hence why I think it's going towards a control route. Then again it seems more like control in retrospect: stabilize then bring in your beaters.
Come to think of it how many reanimation targets should we run in reanimator anyway? Should it be creature heavy like Sultai Reanimator? Or should we run more noncreature spells like cut, charm, see the unwritten, endless obedience, and whip?
I'm not sure if moving empty the pits to the sideboard is the right move because it can provide an alt win con if you find yourself having no reanimation target/reanimators but with a graveyard full of things to delve with. I feel Abzan Charm improves matchups against aggro and provides a larger range for removal like what was mentioned. (against gods and sarkhan) Resolute Archangel really needs to be mainboard given the speed of the deck though.
I went to a standard tourney again (16 ppl) and went 3-1, taking third. Made a few manabase changes and some big SB changes. Will post a report tomorrow. In the meantime though, a couple of comments:
Lots of Azban Reanimator decks are getting classified as Abzan midrange. In my opinion, if the deck is running commune + wayfinder + whip + ashen rider, it's a reanimator deck. We'll see how it all works out in the end.
The most underwhelming card for me today was Nyx Weaver. I'm questioning whether it really has a valuable place in the deck. Any thoughts on a more worthwhile 3-drop? (since it's our only one) I may slide that into Abzan Charm, but I question whether Abzan Charm is really better than Hero's Downfall. Or maybe we still need a creature in that slot.
Sounds interesting, did you run the previous list you posted?
I actually have never built any type of reanimator deck in the past so I'm still trying to differentiate it from other archetypes haha.
Really? How was Nyx Weaver underwhelming? He fits the curve if you don't chuck out a turn 3 rhino. I guess an alternative would be Scout the Borders, but it can't serve as a blocker, fuel Endless Obedience, or recur something we need. We'd have to play tighter to avoid accidentally dumping a whip with no way to get it back.
I've looked over all of these lists. Why hasn't anyone considered Abhorrent Overlord as a Re-animator target. Gives 4 Harpy's off a whip plus more for Rhinos or Weavers. Plus it smashes for 6 the turn it reanimates as opposed to the 2 of Hornet Queen. Also can be hard-cast late game easier than Hornet only requiring BB instead of GGG. And is sac outlet for Rhino/Angel/Queen/Rider for stalled board states to let you animate them again.
I think a 2/2/1/1 split on Queen/Rider/Abhorrrent/Angel maybe moving angel SB and uping to 2/2/2
Rnd 1: GR Monsters - Win 2-0
He was running a standard GR Monsters build. The first game was a bit durdley because he got 3 Poly's out and kept killing my guys with them. However, a whip kept me in the game, and Ashen Rider eventually won it for me by whipping back, exiling Nissa, attacking and killing Xenagos, and gaining 5 life. Took him out a few turns later when he thought he had the game. Game 2 was a blowout in my favor as I just had too much in the air, too many hornets, and the Siege Rhinos did a lot of work too.
Rnd 2: Jeskai Tempo - Win 2-0
Round 1 he had to mull to 5 cards, and I cleaned him up pretty easily. By the time he started to get going, I already had too much out for him to handle. Second game he switched it to the control-ish build, which was probably the right call, but I just had too many threats. He countered my first Rhino, my first Whip, and my first Hornet Queen. Then I landed a queen, landed a whip, and he was done. The match seemed pretty easy. One amusing moment was him using suspension field to exile my Ashen Rider. Next turn I hard cast an Ashen Rider, exiling the suspension field, and getting my other rider back. Lots of exile triggers.
Rnd 3: UG Yisan - Loss 1-2
I had never seen this deck before, and it certainly took me by surprise. Game 1 was long and he completely overwhelmed me with creatures. Yisan + Prophet of Kruphix is simply not fun. I was able to take game 2 by just aggro'ing him before he could get going. Sagu Mauler is very difficult for us to deal with though, when Poly keeps taking out the hornets. At one point in game 3, he rev'ed up Nyxthos to 36 mana with Nissa out. Fun. I boarded in two Duneblasts, either of which being cast is probably an easy game win, but I never saw them. I probaby should have pulled Elspeth into this matchup as well but didn't think of it. Garruk was brought in and helped me win game 2.
Rnd 4: UR Midrange - Win 2-0
This one wasn't too hard to get around. It was basically Rabblemaster and Stormbreath Dragons and Sarkhan supported by counters. I just had too many things for him to counter, and I blew through him. I boarded in Elspeth for game 2, and she was a champ, as expected.
We cut to top 4 but we split the prizes and called it a day.
I was once again very pleased with the deck. Here are my comments:
1.) Rescue from the Underworld continues to be a great card. Multiple times today, an opponent targeted one of my creatures for removal, and I responded with Rescue to crush them. It is very dangerous against control though, so if they playing blue, watch out for counters game 2-3.
2.) I pulled See the Unwritten for a second Endless Obedience and did not miss it.
3.) I worked a lot on my manabase between last time and this time, and the mana felt noticeably better. I do like the mystics now after getting up to the full complement of Llanowar Wastes, since it supports the tap lands with T1 Green plus Mystic, T2 play a 2 drop and play a tapped land.
4.) The card that I have never gotten use out of is Nyx Weaver. We play a 4/5 trample that siphons 3 life for 4 mana. And we play a 2/3 reach for 3? There just has to be a better creature for this slot. I very rarely feel like I have 3 extra mana to burn to grab something back from my yard to my hand, so oftentimes this just ends up as a 2-3 chump blocker. Not only that, but the reach is not very worthwhile because it doesn't kill much that it blocks, and it always dies. The Sultai Delve deck in the pro tour is not running Nyx Weaver, and it is in those colors too. I think this is a weak spot. I may pull these for something else -- maybe Abzan Charm, maybe Hero's Downfall, or just a better creature for 3 mana.
5.) The sideboard felt better. My meta wasn't stocked full of fast aggro today, so I didn't need the Resolute Archangels as much, but I still feel safe with them there. Garruk was great whenever I saw him, as was Elspeth. I'm starting to wonder if reclamation sage is as important as I have placed. But I haven't played any combo yet, and I imagine it's extremely important there.
6.) I'm liking Necropolis Fiend more and more. I cast it turn 4 at one point, which is a pretty impressive, resistant beater for turn 4. It is also a great whip target because it smacks planeswalkers pretty hard through the air. I'm further from cutting these, not closer.
The deck has gone 7-2-1 for me in the past two weeks against a pretty diverse group of decks.
I think it's cause Hornet Queen is way better in terms of the token it produces and mostly because it offers better board control. 4 1/1 black fliers on the board vs 4 1/1 green fliers with deathtouch is a no brainer. It's hard to sac around the ability cause it's triggered only on the upkeep so I guess your opponents can play around him as a sac engine. I'd imagine you'd side in duneblast in grindy matchups instead.
Hi all, firstly sorry for not being active in the thread, i meant to but i've been buried in work the past 2 weeks. I have tomorrow off so maybe a bit more discussion can come out.
Thank you for posting the lists. It's good to see people are still rocking this archetype even if it was absent at the top tables of the pro tour.
Taking a look and we again see the split between midrange +reanimation decks similar to valentines list from a few weeks back (Scott Griffen's is almost identical and more all in reanimator decks with combinations of obedience,rescue and whip's. The most interesting thing to me is that 4/5 decks ran some number of see the unwritten. This card feels to me like a standard version of show and tell in legacy reanimator. Its your backup plan card because you know you have the fatties anyway. It looks to be a better fit then empty, which in my testing has been quiet bad. You can only have a few delve cards in the deck and I feel running empty stresses that fine balance to much while potentially playing into sideboard GY hate in G2-3
I was very sceptical about Resolute archangelbut a 7 mana reset button against aggro is probably one of our best options currently. Im a bit bullish on having it mainboard but its certainly in the 75. I'm still finding aggro our roughest match up just because we take a few turns to set up. If you start to see lots of abzan midrange or monsters decks I urge you to test duneblast in the sideboard. It will win you games I swear. wiping the board is generally enough, but if it isn't the creatures go to the grave so you get extra reanimation targets/ delve mana etc.
Back to the thread discussions and its great to see people winning well with this archetype! Personally I don't care if you are taking it to FNM or a pro tour, for this archetype to continue to develop we need as many reports/testing/ideas as we can get. That's win or lose mind you, if you go 1-3 still post and we can dissect what went wrong and help each other out for next time.
I'll try and be more active from now on to
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What do people think of her in the main board, for those that have done so?
I find See the Unwritten very appealing, but you definitely need to up your top end count.
I'd like to try something like this at FNM next week:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Nyx Weaver
4 Siege Rhino
2 Ashen Rider
3 Hornet Queen
1 Resolute Archangel
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Murderous Cut
1 See the Unwritten
1 Temple of Plenty
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Resolute Archangel
1 Ashen Rider
1 See the Unwritten
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bile Blight
1 Empty the Pits
1 Reclamation Sage
Basically, I think that resolute is enough of a beating to try in the main deck, and I like see the unwritten because it's easy to get 4 power with rhino, and it allows us to take some of the pressure off of GY hate, if it becomes more prevalent, and certainly off of enchantment hate.
I will say the one thing I think Valentine just about nailed was the manabase. He said he'd run the 4th heath, and thus, there it is, cutting a temple of plenty.
Erebos's Emissary also allows you to discard, but it means playing a rather subpar creature.
I guess the play here is to build a lot of ramp (hence the elves and caryatids) to allow you to hardcast whatever bomb you draw by accident.
Yeah true ay. I wish Abzan Charm's draw mode was the same as Sultai Charm! That would have been nice to pick up 2 fresh cards and discard an Ashen Rider or Hornet Queen.
The deck feels slightly threat light. Rakshasa Deathdealer helps sultai dredge, maybe they could play a role here?
Two drops feel very midrange but Rakshasa Deathdealer is great as it scales over the game and is a great blocker with its regen. This needs testing, what could we cut for it though? Definitely not the dorks nor the mill. Could be a two-of or three-of at most
I find mystics are much more important once you get up to turn 4 and 5. You want to be hitting 6-8 mana consistently with this deck, because it means you no longer need to rely on whip to do the work for you. Being able to t1-> mystic t2-> caryatid t3-> rhino t4-> unwritten into 2 beaters is not outside the realm of possibility, but is only possible with mystic. Not to mention, if you're casting your ashen riders, you're getting your full value if they stick.
I've definitely had games when you have a few beaters trapped in your hand, and just can't get there manawise, so I wouldn't want to cut down on the mystics. If anything, I'd consider cutting a beater for the 4th Nyx Weaver to help continue to fill the yard and gain advantage out of my opponent's removal, grabbing back useful spells and getting to use them again.
Archangel is going to be a staple this standard season. Pick your set up now while they're so cheap. This format is more than slow enough for you to get to 7 mana even vs aggro decks, as long as you come prepared, and this card is the nail in the coffin. Also singlehandedly won me a game vs Jeskai Tempo because apparently a 15 point lifeswing is a big deal.
For those interested, I opted to cut Fiend because I want every high-cost creature in the deck to be high-impact, and do something the second they hit the board. Fiend just wasn't doing it for me.
This is actually a really good point. Come into play abilities are super important right now, because one turn is huge in the meta right now.
That said, Fiend is rarely high cost (cc), which should be considered when deciding what to cut and swap.
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
2x Ashen Rider
2x Nyx Weaver
3x Hornet Queen
3x Elvish Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Siege Rhino
Instants:
1x Empty the Pits
4x Murderous Cut
1x Endless Obedience
4x Commune with the Gods
Artifacts:
2x Whip of Erebos
Lands:
1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Forest
2x Plains
3x Swamp
2x Temple of Malady
2x Temple of Plenty
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
4x Windswept Heath
3x Despise
3x Drown in Sorrow
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Banishing Light
2x Duneblast
1x Utter End
1x Abzan Charm
I was kind of just putting the sideboard together out of nowhere, but my LGS did have b/w aggro and jeskai hence the downfall and drown. Despise was in there for the same reason and for mardu midrange as well. Duneblast was supposedly for mirror or grindy matchups and utter end, abzan charm, and banishing light for things that I wouldn't expect. I went 2-1 as we only went three rounds due to the shop being relatively new. My matchups were with B/W aggro and 2 Jeskai decks. I lost in the second round. I'll post a summary of each below. Playing this deck was satisfying but I can't get a proper feel of it yet as I'll explain after the matchups.
Round 1 - B/W Aggro: I was caught off-guard game one as my opponent had an explosive start. I couldn't catch up and he just exiled my threats with Banishing Light. Eventually i folded to a board filled with his creatures followed up by a Mogis' Marauder. G2 I managed to drop a turn three rhino. I kept taking hits fast but I managed to drop my mainboard Resolute Archangel. After that it was smooth sailing til I dropped a Hornet Queen and then Empty the Pits for 12 tokens. Game three went a bit faster as I landed two consecutive rhinos, it was game after that as he ran out of gas.
Round 2- Jeskai Tempo: I lost both games this round. Both games were close matches. It was unbelievable during game one, I had him cornered and he won out of nowhere with Narset's trigger followed up by stoke and howl of the horde dealing 12. Game two I had established my board but he got in for the kill as I tried to race him which was probably a mistake on my part. I got to despise both his rabblemasters in the first 3 turns. He follows up with two topdecked Mantis Riders which I just can't race. I should have boarded in BOTH drowns and hero's downfall. I kept on topdecking land with no threats as he got to banish my siege rhino. I feel 24 lands with 7 dorks is too much. Game one leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.
Round 3- Jeskai Tempo: I went 2-1 here like in the first round. Lost game one because I didn't have enough removal and my threats were too slow. Boarded in despise and hero's downfall along with drown in sorrow. Won game two on the back of two siege rhinos and a hornet queen. He scooped a a turn after dropping the hornet because he didn't have enough burn to clear a path for his threats at that point. Same goes for game 3, a turn 3 siege rhino is really backbreaking for a tempo deck. He managed to get out a mantis rider but it got cut down fast with murderous cut. I didn't have removal but a second siege rhino followed through and his Master of the Way was just too late.
Overall I think I've changed my mind on how this deck should work; at this point it can either be a quick play ramp deck with a secondary win con for reanimating OR it can be a reanimator deck which plays mid-range (and cuts the mystics) that's closer to control. If one plays it like the latter then it would be essentially abzan midrange with a whip and you would have to change up a lot of the cards in here.
But in its current form this deck's key weakness is speed. A lot of other decks pump out threats by turn 3/4 and this deck barely does just that without the 8 mana dorks. I feel like I'll run See the unwritten as exallium makes a good point about it. Will definitely have to test more. Also if you do run 8 dorks, 24 lands seem to be a lot. I really could have fought back during my second game in the round with Jeskai that I lost. Maybe 23 will do? I need help with this though. Any suggestions for this? More painlands seem to be a reasonable answer but it punishes you if you don't play around it.
Also,you guys were right about mainboard Resolute Archangel, that card can really save you in a pinch and is way better than Necropolis Fiend. Bouncing back with this is really great as your opponents would sometimes tap out and leave themselves open too attack. Unfortunately the deck does seem to need more removal. Any suggestions guys? Especially about the sideboard. I'm looking forward to tweaking and improving this deck for future matchups.
When we're playing against an aggro deck, it's really important to know our role as the control deck, not as the aggro deck. As long as we can stave them off, get value out of drowns or blights if they're played, and get down a Siege Rhino, we can start to stabilize. After that, we can start pressuring them with Queen, and ultimately resolute archangel our way to victory. A flying 4/4 is bad enough for them. Tack on gaining 10-15 life, and it's game over. Resolute Archangel makes our life less of a valuable resource, because it's such a huge upswing. Furthermore, the lifegain we're getting off rhino negates at least one attacking creature. Mix in whip, and it's unlikely they can come back.
Same with Jeskai Tempo. The deck is amazing, but as long as we're gaining a significant amount of life, they won't be able to kill us and we'll run them over.
Being slow in this format isn't a big deal, as we are more than able to make up for it.
If you want to remove a land, add a nyx-weaver. That card is ridiculously good in this deck.
As for removal, I definitely recommend the full set of Downfalls. If you have an aggro heavy meta, consider another drown or blight (which also kills rider). If you have people running monsters, Elspeth is a beating. Duneblast seems very good here as well, though I like being able to translate into a more conventional grindy control deck if needed, and those tokens can and will kill people, or allow you to survive long enough to curve out into your top end.
Something Glen wrote I disagree with --
"Overall I think I've changed my mind on how this deck should work; at this point it can either be a quick play ramp deck with a secondary win con for reanimating OR it can be a reanimator deck which plays mid-range (and cuts the mystics) that's closer to control. If one plays it like the latter then it would be essentially abzan midrange with a whip and you would have to change up a lot of the cards in here. "
I play mine like a real reanimator deck, moreso than the recent decks posted, since I run 2x Whip 2x Rescue from the Underworld and 1x Endless Obedience. I'm thinking of even upping that 6 and cutting See the Unwritten. I don't think that going the reanimator way with this deck is just going more Abzan midrange with a whip. If you're reanimating, you want high-value targets, and Ashen Rider and Hornet Queen and Resolute Archangel are key. Why would I reanimate a Polykranos when I can reanimate an Ashen Rider? I think to play this deck as a real reanimator deck actually takes it further away from Abzan midrange.
This list and your report are very promising I pulled two empty the pits in prerelease and a 3rd last week and only had use for 1 in edh and now I have a good use for the other 2.
What would you cut to mainboard banishing lights? & would a hornet nest possibly be a good idea to pair nicely with the queen? Or maybe to slow or just wrong for this deck?
~"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils."
-Louis Hector Berlioz
Also I was actually thinking of cutting Pharika with another Nyx Weaver, I'll play that out next week and see what happens. Temur/monsters didn't really show up but i'm torn between duneblast and elspeth since they cost nearly the same and we can ramp into either anyway. I called the sideboard wrong too, I definitely needed more bile blights. They seem better but I think I'd run a 3-2 split between drown and bile blights. How do we sideboard, btw? Swap out dorks for removal?
Maybe I'll cut one land since it would be redundant and drawing into one late game wouldn't really help us. I was actually thinking that if you'd go full reanimator you would skip on the ramp and would run more removal/board control and reanimation spells hence why I think it's going towards a control route. Then again it seems more like control in retrospect: stabilize then bring in your beaters.
Come to think of it how many reanimation targets should we run in reanimator anyway? Should it be creature heavy like Sultai Reanimator? Or should we run more noncreature spells like cut, charm, see the unwritten, endless obedience, and whip?
I reworked my list into something like this:
2x Ashen Rider
3x Nyx Weaver
3x Hornet Queen
3x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Siege Rhino
4x Elvish Mystic
2x Abzan Charm
3x Murderous Cut
Sorceries:
2x Endless Obedience
4x Commune with the Gods
Artifacts:
2x Whip of Erebos
Lands:
1x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Temple of Malady
1x Temple of Plenty
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
4x Windswept Heath
I'm not sure if moving empty the pits to the sideboard is the right move because it can provide an alt win con if you find yourself having no reanimation target/reanimators but with a graveyard full of things to delve with. I feel Abzan Charm improves matchups against aggro and provides a larger range for removal like what was mentioned. (against gods and sarkhan) Resolute Archangel really needs to be mainboard given the speed of the deck though.
Lots of Azban Reanimator decks are getting classified as Abzan midrange. In my opinion, if the deck is running commune + wayfinder + whip + ashen rider, it's a reanimator deck. We'll see how it all works out in the end.
The most underwhelming card for me today was Nyx Weaver. I'm questioning whether it really has a valuable place in the deck. Any thoughts on a more worthwhile 3-drop? (since it's our only one) I may slide that into Abzan Charm, but I question whether Abzan Charm is really better than Hero's Downfall. Or maybe we still need a creature in that slot.
I actually have never built any type of reanimator deck in the past so I'm still trying to differentiate it from other archetypes haha.
Really? How was Nyx Weaver underwhelming? He fits the curve if you don't chuck out a turn 3 rhino. I guess an alternative would be Scout the Borders, but it can't serve as a blocker, fuel Endless Obedience, or recur something we need. We'd have to play tighter to avoid accidentally dumping a whip with no way to get it back.
I think a 2/2/1/1 split on Queen/Rider/Abhorrrent/Angel maybe moving angel SB and uping to 2/2/2
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Siege Rhino
3x Nyx Weaver
3x Hornet Queen
2x Ashen Rider
2x Necropolis Fiend
Other - 11
2x Rescue from the Underworld
2x Endless Obedience
2x Whip of Erebos
2x Murderous Cut
3x Commune with the Gods
4x Windswept Heath
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
1x Temple of Malady
1x Temple of Silence
2x Temple of Plenty
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Caves of Koilos
4x Llanowar Wastes
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
2x Duneblast
3x Resolute Archangel
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Bile Blight
1x Nyxfleece Ram
2x Reclamation Sage
The results:
Rnd 1: GR Monsters - Win 2-0
He was running a standard GR Monsters build. The first game was a bit durdley because he got 3 Poly's out and kept killing my guys with them. However, a whip kept me in the game, and Ashen Rider eventually won it for me by whipping back, exiling Nissa, attacking and killing Xenagos, and gaining 5 life. Took him out a few turns later when he thought he had the game. Game 2 was a blowout in my favor as I just had too much in the air, too many hornets, and the Siege Rhinos did a lot of work too.
Rnd 2: Jeskai Tempo - Win 2-0
Round 1 he had to mull to 5 cards, and I cleaned him up pretty easily. By the time he started to get going, I already had too much out for him to handle. Second game he switched it to the control-ish build, which was probably the right call, but I just had too many threats. He countered my first Rhino, my first Whip, and my first Hornet Queen. Then I landed a queen, landed a whip, and he was done. The match seemed pretty easy. One amusing moment was him using suspension field to exile my Ashen Rider. Next turn I hard cast an Ashen Rider, exiling the suspension field, and getting my other rider back. Lots of exile triggers.
Rnd 3: UG Yisan - Loss 1-2
I had never seen this deck before, and it certainly took me by surprise. Game 1 was long and he completely overwhelmed me with creatures. Yisan + Prophet of Kruphix is simply not fun. I was able to take game 2 by just aggro'ing him before he could get going. Sagu Mauler is very difficult for us to deal with though, when Poly keeps taking out the hornets. At one point in game 3, he rev'ed up Nyxthos to 36 mana with Nissa out. Fun. I boarded in two Duneblasts, either of which being cast is probably an easy game win, but I never saw them. I probaby should have pulled Elspeth into this matchup as well but didn't think of it. Garruk was brought in and helped me win game 2.
Rnd 4: UR Midrange - Win 2-0
This one wasn't too hard to get around. It was basically Rabblemaster and Stormbreath Dragons and Sarkhan supported by counters. I just had too many things for him to counter, and I blew through him. I boarded in Elspeth for game 2, and she was a champ, as expected.
We cut to top 4 but we split the prizes and called it a day.
I was once again very pleased with the deck. Here are my comments:
1.) Rescue from the Underworld continues to be a great card. Multiple times today, an opponent targeted one of my creatures for removal, and I responded with Rescue to crush them. It is very dangerous against control though, so if they playing blue, watch out for counters game 2-3.
2.) I pulled See the Unwritten for a second Endless Obedience and did not miss it.
3.) I worked a lot on my manabase between last time and this time, and the mana felt noticeably better. I do like the mystics now after getting up to the full complement of Llanowar Wastes, since it supports the tap lands with T1 Green plus Mystic, T2 play a 2 drop and play a tapped land.
4.) The card that I have never gotten use out of is Nyx Weaver. We play a 4/5 trample that siphons 3 life for 4 mana. And we play a 2/3 reach for 3? There just has to be a better creature for this slot. I very rarely feel like I have 3 extra mana to burn to grab something back from my yard to my hand, so oftentimes this just ends up as a 2-3 chump blocker. Not only that, but the reach is not very worthwhile because it doesn't kill much that it blocks, and it always dies. The Sultai Delve deck in the pro tour is not running Nyx Weaver, and it is in those colors too. I think this is a weak spot. I may pull these for something else -- maybe Abzan Charm, maybe Hero's Downfall, or just a better creature for 3 mana.
5.) The sideboard felt better. My meta wasn't stocked full of fast aggro today, so I didn't need the Resolute Archangels as much, but I still feel safe with them there. Garruk was great whenever I saw him, as was Elspeth. I'm starting to wonder if reclamation sage is as important as I have placed. But I haven't played any combo yet, and I imagine it's extremely important there.
6.) I'm liking Necropolis Fiend more and more. I cast it turn 4 at one point, which is a pretty impressive, resistant beater for turn 4. It is also a great whip target because it smacks planeswalkers pretty hard through the air. I'm further from cutting these, not closer.
The deck has gone 7-2-1 for me in the past two weeks against a pretty diverse group of decks.
Oregon - 7th http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74284
Texas - 4th http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74305
Iowa - 5th http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74274
Maryland - 3rd http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1217254
Texas - 3rd http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1217291
Thank you for posting the lists. It's good to see people are still rocking this archetype even if it was absent at the top tables of the pro tour.
Taking a look and we again see the split between midrange +reanimation decks similar to valentines list from a few weeks back (Scott Griffen's is almost identical and more all in reanimator decks with combinations of obedience,rescue and whip's. The most interesting thing to me is that 4/5 decks ran some number of see the unwritten. This card feels to me like a standard version of show and tell in legacy reanimator. Its your backup plan card because you know you have the fatties anyway. It looks to be a better fit then empty, which in my testing has been quiet bad. You can only have a few delve cards in the deck and I feel running empty stresses that fine balance to much while potentially playing into sideboard GY hate in G2-3
I was very sceptical about Resolute archangelbut a 7 mana reset button against aggro is probably one of our best options currently. Im a bit bullish on having it mainboard but its certainly in the 75. I'm still finding aggro our roughest match up just because we take a few turns to set up. If you start to see lots of abzan midrange or monsters decks I urge you to test duneblast in the sideboard. It will win you games I swear. wiping the board is generally enough, but if it isn't the creatures go to the grave so you get extra reanimation targets/ delve mana etc.
Back to the thread discussions and its great to see people winning well with this archetype! Personally I don't care if you are taking it to FNM or a pro tour, for this archetype to continue to develop we need as many reports/testing/ideas as we can get. That's win or lose mind you, if you go 1-3 still post and we can dissect what went wrong and help each other out for next time.
I'll try and be more active from now on to