Wify: I just tested your decklist against a monoblack aggro deck, and it went 2-6 over 8 games. I tested a similar build 3 weeks ago and dropped it because the weenies get outclassed very quickly and blue lacks pump spells to make them relevant. While the 4 MI's did produce a lot of card draw, they just put more weenies into my hand that didn't effect the board because they were too small to help me win the damage race.
I just tested this deck in an 8 game set against monoblack aggro and it went 4-4. Those odds would improve after sideboard by bringing in 4 Triton Tactics and taking out 2 Bidents and 2 other cards.
I tweeked the deck by taking out Daring Thief and Omenspeaker and putting in Chief Engineer and Scuttling Doom Engine. Then I tested it against the same monoblack aggro deck as I did the other versions, and this one went 5-3.
I tried Flitterstep Eidolon already in a weenie build similar to this. I went 0-3 at FNM with it almost a month ago. You have no tough creatures to block and your creatures are so small that they get outpaced very quickly.
I tried Flitterstep Eidolon already in a weenie build similar to this. I went 0-3 at FNM with it almost a month ago. You have no tough creatures to block and your creatures are so small that they get outpaced very quickly.
Wify: I just tested your decklist against a monoblack aggro deck, and it went 2-6 over 8 games. I tested a similar build 3 weeks ago and dropped it because the weenies get outclassed very quickly and blue lacks pump spells to make them relevant. While the 4 MI's did produce a lot of card draw, they just put more weenies into my hand that didn't effect the board because they were too small to help me win the damage race.
Fair enough. That decklist was not built entirely with mono-b aggro in mind, it was built with control, midrange and red aggro in mind.
The way to think about that decklist's purpose is it is trying to build devotion to turn Thassa on T4 and to make Hypnotic Siren viable by T5. In the past we did that with scaling UU creatures. Since we don't have that anymore, it goes a different route: get card advantage ASAP to draw multiple cards and drop them to get our U. Consider this...
T1: Land. Shoretalker, Ornithopter
T2: Land. Military Intelligence, swing, +card
T3: Land. Thassa, swing [if we can] +card
T4: Scry. Land. We're up 2 cards AND we've scryed. We should have at least 2+ pips in hand to turn Thassa online. Swing, draw a card...
T5: Scry. Land - if it is Nykthos, then we have more than enough to cast Hypnotic Siren as an enchantment. With devotion and Nykthos, she scales well.
That is a blow-out hand, but with that decklist we have a higher chance of blow-outs because we have two routes for a very strong early game: ensoul & military intelligence.
The nice thing about this build is that our weenies scale really well. We finish with Thassa, MoW, Ensoul and eventually Siren. Those are really strong finishers. But our weenies are constantly doing us good with MI and Bident. That is the goal, at least. I feel ensoul and more non-creature permanents improves our control match-up a lot too.
But against aggro, we die before then, obviously. We don't get our engine online. Unless we draw the ensoul combo, we do seem incredibly weak to them pre-sideboard. Omenspeaker doesn't scale at all and I don't like it, but I'd consider playing this instead maybe?
I've removed 1 Encrust and 1 land (because omenspeaker helps us with card selection early on) and taken out Vaporkin to put in 4 Omenspeaker's instead. What do you think? If you want 23 land, to get to 4 omenspeaker would be very painful.... does Omenspeaker improve our match-up enough to be worth playing pre-board?
what do you guys say about take vaporkin out and include Flitterstep Eidolon??
It is an interesting idea but I don't think I'm a big fan.
By 6 mana we can probably turn our stuff unblockable with Thassa - except multiple things.
So early on I'd rather have Vaporkin for the extra 2 power I think.
The version with Daring Thief is fun. Even if you don't target anything, once you get the engine of tapping him every turn it puts pressure on the other player to remove Daring Thief or delay any bombs that could get taken. The ideal exchange is giving them a sea elemental because those die without Master of Waves.
Do you mean Phyrexian Revoker in place of the 2 copies of Ornithopter I jammed in there? I am thinking of dropping the 2 Ornithopters in place of 2 Springleaf Drum to make it easier to cast Scuttling Doom Engine without Chief Engineer. Scuttling Doom Engine is a house and I realized looking at it last night that it's the best card we have against Elspeth, since it can't be blocked by her soldier tokens and if it is killed by her minus ability then it deals 6 damage. Plus it is main deckable. unlike Prognostic Sphinx.
I posted my version on the first page, but I haven't updated it because I have been testing it with a Magic partner so I am waiting to get his feedback and play some test rounds with him before changing the deck list.
Ordeal of Thassa doesn't contribute devotion because the enchantment goes away, plus it's susceptible to removal. I have tried Font of Imagination before. I really like that because you can play it for 2 mana, leave it there if you need the blue pip, and crack it when you are ready to crack it.
I have played a similar deck list against all of the above. It only seemed to do well against Abzan and that's partially because their pain lands do so much damage to them.
Against red aggro, your best aggro cards are in your sideboard, not your main deck. So you will have a terrible first round unless you get Ensoul Artifact online by turn 2. Even then you will have problems winning the match.
Against control all your weenie creatures will die to sweepers and spot removal, then when they land their big creatures you will be stonewalled or unable to win the race.
I don't see any problem with red aggro. With early ensoul, you can race them. Furthermore, Master of Waves will put the match in our favor. Keep up devotion and make a lot of tokens.
Black aggro is a bit tougher. Most importantly, Mogis Marauder can force alpha attacks, even against our few artifact creatures. OTOH, their Thoughtseize, Pain Seer and Herald of Torment can hurt themselves if we go on the offensive and let their life tick down. If their life total is low, they can't play these cards, thus weakening their offense. However, Sorin can a real pain. Master of Waves is not as good as it is against red. Fortunately, the tokens can kill most of their creatures. On the offense, many of their creatures can't block, so use that to your advantage.
Nevertheless, aggro matchup doesn't seem that bad. Maybe slightly in their favor, say 55-60%. I want to say get even more aggressive than them so that they go on the defensive, and finish them with Master of Waves and unblockables.
Dont know if it's good to post it here, looking for a monoblue, but seems not too strong, so looking up for the good jeskai that have burn and blue in it, trying to twist something like this :
The burn give some reach, never tried it before.. Still a rough draft, but the idea is to have advantage over master, not thassa, it's like a modern merfolk, just 3 devotion for master is enough to close games.. And the combination of mantis rider, master, and jeskai charm +1/+1 lifelink is to good to be true..
For the land i adjust so it can have blue on turn one.. And red or white in turn two, also have all three color in turn three for mantisrider, therefore i just use 3 temple.. How do you all think?
I'm going to get a little bit of playtesting in today for a couple of rounds before tomorrow where I'll be playing my variation for real. I predict it is going to be badly, but hopefully I'll have some actual thoughts to add.
My build on this focuses on the following:
Gaining strong advantage in the early game, either with a military intelligence combo or a ensoul combo so that I can be doing stuff T1-3 because after T4-5 they're going to be dropping bombs.
Gaining as much devotion as I can so Thassa is alive T4 and that Siren is enchantable by T5 with Nykthos, which is especially... hopeful.
IMHO my early game is stronger than these durdle decks, so that is my strength and I need to mull based on it.
Against red aggro I'll be trying to get to a Master ASAP. Against black aggro, I'll just be trying to manage the board.
I got a chance to test again last night against Abzhan Midrange and Jeskai Tempo. The deck feels pretty good with a decent chance of winning. Everyone who wants to keep Omenspeaker in the sideboard is making a mistake, I think. The scry 2 gets you to your 3rd or 4th land, and the 1/3 body stops so much aggression.
The Jeskai Tempo feels like a very close match up, though winnable. I think after game 1 sideboarding all 4 copies of Encrust and bringing in 4 copies of Triton Tactics, plus 2 Negates, feels correct for game 2.
So I play tested two decks, here are my thoughts. Both pilots were very good btw.
Black aggro: Hard matchup. The reason? I was winning the damage race until SORIN came out. Everything is fine but SORIN swings them huge amounts of life. Lesson is that against mono black, consider stabilising before swinging rather than racing because Sorin will wreck that plan.
Jeskai: Easy victory thanks to Master of Waves. They have so few answers to it and it wrecks their plans. Their early game is also very weak. Felt like a very favourable matchup. If they were playing Brimaz it would have been harder.
I've been following this thread with interest because Master of Waves, Thassa, God of the Sea, Bident of Thassa, and Ensoul Artifact are all powerful cards. I have no playtest experience with the deck, but I have played most of the current big decks in the meta (and a few that will be making a splash soon enough), so I have a few comments that I hope some of you may find helpful.
Don't worry that black aggro is a hard matchup. That deck is a nonfactor.
Disdainful Stroke is amazeballs against a lot of the field right now.
It looks like Jeskai might be a big player in the meta. If that's the case, I would suggest 1 Hall in the main, and 1 in the sideboard + 4 Triton Tactics in the sideboard as well.
Nope, I played with my decklist I came up with initially.
Omenspeaker wouldn't have really helped much against rabble red... their creatures get too big. I needed to stabalize with ensoul, thassa and master to stay alive.
if you play clever impersonator, you can clone sorin and lifelink your own creatures. clone is so good against midrange. that's why i don't fear planeswalkers or big creatures or lifelink. because i know i'll get them back the same way. eventually i'll draw more cards than them and have bigger army than them.
That is true but Clever Impersonator would wreck my mainboard strategy, but I will consider it.
Played against a skilled BGW opponent. We went 1-1 before having to stop. Because they weren't playing Sorin, it went much better and was more than winnable.
I just came back from a WMQ. I went 1-4. My win was against a control deck, my 4 losses were against Rabble Master/Burn decks. I had said before that I felt that match up was the worst for this deck, and I spent all day losing to it. I am 0-6 against that deck.
There's a thread called Blue Token Devotion on the forum, some explanations there.
Some notes, Set Adrift and Dakra Mystic effectively removes problems.
Dakra filters threats and finds cards.
Hour of Need is a win con and an instant speed removal spell against the right creature.
Stubborn Denial is amazing early game and late game.
Thassa's Rebuff becomes counterspell pretty quickly.
Chasm Skulker is a card you want your opponents to kill.
The sideboard is completely untested but hilarious looking.
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Darksteel Citadel
17 Island
// Spells
4 Ensoul Artifact
3 Springleaf Drum
3 Encrust
1 Hall of Triumph
2 Bident of Thassa
4 Hypnotic Siren
4 Triton Shorestalker
4 Omenspeaker
4 Daring Thief
4 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Master of Waves
i love this build.
what do you guys say about take vaporkin out and include Flitterstep Eidolon??
thaks for the fast input.
have you tested Ordeal of Thassa??
It seems that you have been testing the deck a lot. Are you updating the first response of the thread with your deck iterations?
Fair enough. That decklist was not built entirely with mono-b aggro in mind, it was built with control, midrange and red aggro in mind.
The way to think about that decklist's purpose is it is trying to build devotion to turn Thassa on T4 and to make Hypnotic Siren viable by T5. In the past we did that with scaling UU creatures. Since we don't have that anymore, it goes a different route: get card advantage ASAP to draw multiple cards and drop them to get our U. Consider this...
T1: Land. Shoretalker, Ornithopter
T2: Land. Military Intelligence, swing, +card
T3: Land. Thassa, swing [if we can] +card
T4: Scry. Land. We're up 2 cards AND we've scryed. We should have at least 2+ pips in hand to turn Thassa online. Swing, draw a card...
T5: Scry. Land - if it is Nykthos, then we have more than enough to cast Hypnotic Siren as an enchantment. With devotion and Nykthos, she scales well.
That is a blow-out hand, but with that decklist we have a higher chance of blow-outs because we have two routes for a very strong early game: ensoul & military intelligence.
The nice thing about this build is that our weenies scale really well. We finish with Thassa, MoW, Ensoul and eventually Siren. Those are really strong finishers. But our weenies are constantly doing us good with MI and Bident. That is the goal, at least. I feel ensoul and more non-creature permanents improves our control match-up a lot too.
But against aggro, we die before then, obviously. We don't get our engine online. Unless we draw the ensoul combo, we do seem incredibly weak to them pre-sideboard. Omenspeaker doesn't scale at all and I don't like it, but I'd consider playing this instead maybe?
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Darksteel Citadel
16 Island
// Spells
4 Ensoul Artifact
4 Military Intelligence
3 Encrust
1 Hall of Triumph
2 Bident of Thassa
4 Ornithopter
4 Hypnotic Siren
4 Triton Shorestalker
4 Omenspeaker
4 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Master of Waves
4 Negate
3 Prognostic Sphinx
2 Hour of Need
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Icy Blast
2 Triton Tactics
I've removed 1 Encrust and 1 land (because omenspeaker helps us with card selection early on) and taken out Vaporkin to put in 4 Omenspeaker's instead. What do you think? If you want 23 land, to get to 4 omenspeaker would be very painful.... does Omenspeaker improve our match-up enough to be worth playing pre-board?
It is an interesting idea but I don't think I'm a big fan.
By 6 mana we can probably turn our stuff unblockable with Thassa - except multiple things.
So early on I'd rather have Vaporkin for the extra 2 power I think.
Do you mean Phyrexian Revoker in place of the 2 copies of Ornithopter I jammed in there? I am thinking of dropping the 2 Ornithopters in place of 2 Springleaf Drum to make it easier to cast Scuttling Doom Engine without Chief Engineer. Scuttling Doom Engine is a house and I realized looking at it last night that it's the best card we have against Elspeth, since it can't be blocked by her soldier tokens and if it is killed by her minus ability then it deals 6 damage. Plus it is main deckable. unlike Prognostic Sphinx.
Ordeal of Thassa doesn't contribute devotion because the enchantment goes away, plus it's susceptible to removal. I have tried Font of Imagination before. I really like that because you can play it for 2 mana, leave it there if you need the blue pip, and crack it when you are ready to crack it.
I have played a similar deck list against all of the above. It only seemed to do well against Abzan and that's partially because their pain lands do so much damage to them.
Against red aggro, your best aggro cards are in your sideboard, not your main deck. So you will have a terrible first round unless you get Ensoul Artifact online by turn 2. Even then you will have problems winning the match.
Against control all your weenie creatures will die to sweepers and spot removal, then when they land their big creatures you will be stonewalled or unable to win the race.
Black aggro is a bit tougher. Most importantly, Mogis Marauder can force alpha attacks, even against our few artifact creatures. OTOH, their Thoughtseize, Pain Seer and Herald of Torment can hurt themselves if we go on the offensive and let their life tick down. If their life total is low, they can't play these cards, thus weakening their offense. However, Sorin can a real pain. Master of Waves is not as good as it is against red. Fortunately, the tokens can kill most of their creatures. On the offense, many of their creatures can't block, so use that to your advantage.
Nevertheless, aggro matchup doesn't seem that bad. Maybe slightly in their favor, say 55-60%. I want to say get even more aggressive than them so that they go on the defensive, and finish them with Master of Waves and unblockables.
........................
3 hypnotic siren
2 triton shorethief
3 jeskai elder
4 mantis rider
2 Quickling
4 master of waves
2 thassa
20
1 jeskai ascendensy
2 bident of thassa
1 jace, the living guildpact
2 singing bell
3 jeskai charm
1 stoke the flame
3 magma jet
2 lightning strike
15
3 mystic monastery
3 flooded strand
2 evolving wild
6 island
1 nykthos
1 plains
3 mountain
3 shivan reef
3 temple of triumph
The burn give some reach, never tried it before.. Still a rough draft, but the idea is to have advantage over master, not thassa, it's like a modern merfolk, just 3 devotion for master is enough to close games.. And the combination of mantis rider, master, and jeskai charm +1/+1 lifelink is to good to be true..
For the land i adjust so it can have blue on turn one.. And red or white in turn two, also have all three color in turn three for mantisrider, therefore i just use 3 temple.. How do you all think?
My build on this focuses on the following:
Against red aggro I'll be trying to get to a Master ASAP. Against black aggro, I'll just be trying to manage the board.
The Jeskai Tempo feels like a very close match up, though winnable. I think after game 1 sideboarding all 4 copies of Encrust and bringing in 4 copies of Triton Tactics, plus 2 Negates, feels correct for game 2.
Black aggro: Hard matchup. The reason? I was winning the damage race until SORIN came out. Everything is fine but SORIN swings them huge amounts of life. Lesson is that against mono black, consider stabilising before swinging rather than racing because Sorin will wreck that plan.
Jeskai: Easy victory thanks to Master of Waves. They have so few answers to it and it wrecks their plans. Their early game is also very weak. Felt like a very favourable matchup. If they were playing Brimaz it would have been harder.
Don't worry that black aggro is a hard matchup. That deck is a nonfactor.
Disdainful Stroke is amazeballs against a lot of the field right now.
Dig Through Time or Treasure Cruise. I'm not sure which is better but one or the other would give SO MUCH GAS.
Clever Impersonator, if it belongs anywhere outside of Chord of Calling, it belongs here.
The same is true of Quickling, which can be a blow out against the midrange decks.
A black splash may be very beneficial. A small one, just for Polluted Delta (Delve food), Thoughtseize & Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in the main and Despise in the board.
Keep up the good work!
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Mono red: terrifyingly fast but Master of Waves, Ensoul and Thassa (active) won me the game. Made me glad to be playing encrust, it turned Thassa on.
B/G/W: Sorin wrecked me. Lifelink is this decks biggest weakness.
Borros Control: hard to say because he drew poorly but went 2-0. Master and Thassa are standouts.
Omenspeaker wouldn't have really helped much against rabble red... their creatures get too big. I needed to stabalize with ensoul, thassa and master to stay alive.
........................
Played against a skilled BGW opponent. We went 1-1 before having to stop. Because they weren't playing Sorin, it went much better and was more than winnable.
4 Dakra Mystic
4 Battlefield Thaumaturge
4 Chasm Skulker
4 Master of Waves
2 Thassa, God of the Sea
Spells
4 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Set Adrift
3 Hour of Need
4 Stubborn Denial
4 Thassa's Rebuff
22 Island
1 Nyk'thos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Whelming Wave
4 Aetherspouts
4 Clever Impersonator
2 Scourge of the Fleets
1 Stormtide Leviathan
There's a thread called Blue Token Devotion on the forum, some explanations there.
Some notes, Set Adrift and Dakra Mystic effectively removes problems.
Dakra filters threats and finds cards.
Hour of Need is a win con and an instant speed removal spell against the right creature.
Stubborn Denial is amazing early game and late game.
Thassa's Rebuff becomes counterspell pretty quickly.
Chasm Skulker is a card you want your opponents to kill.
The sideboard is completely untested but hilarious looking.