Pop Question: How do we deal with Anafenza? she seems like she can cause some headace.
Well, for one it does nothing to the cards already in your GY. My guess is she can eat a Downfall / Cut, otherwise just hardcast guys and hold on to your Sidisi?
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"Dying with good cards in your hand is the surest sign that you did something wrong, somewhere." -Caleb Durward
I think splashing white and going four colors is not only reasonable, but probably necessary. Abzan Reanimator is stronger by far than Sultai Reanimator because of Siege Rhino and Ashen Rider, but Sidisi is a much better mill card and delve feeder. The two graveyard decks solve each others problems very well. Abzan gets stuck with uncastable Hornet Queens and Ashen Riders in hand, and can take 2-5 damage to cast their charm and get card advantage. Sultai Charm dumps the fatties you want to reanimate and then gives you the same card draw with no life loss. Sultai needs more relevant bodies and ETB abilies, and some way of dealing with Sarkhan and multi-colored creatures. Abzan Charm hits everything Sultai misses, and splashing white also gives access to Utter End for an extremely versatile removal kit.
Combining the two gives you redundancy, versatility, and raw power. While Siege Rhino and Sidisi are completely different cards, they are both instant impact four drops that cost 1GB and W/U and can also generate value if reanimated with Whip of Erebos. I've already talked about the versatility of removal, which can hit any creature in standard, cycle when not needed, and lets the deck run a small but powerful removal suite while keeping the creature count up. Finally, adding white gives a lower more raw power. A core of Sidisi, Siege Rhino, Necropolis Fiend, Hornet Queen, and Ashen Rider is extremely powerful.
How does the mana look for a 4C deck? Surprisingly, not that bad. Running 26 lands lets you play something like:
That gives 18 black, 17 green, 13 white, and 11 blue mana sources. The deck actually takes less damage from painlands than a normal wedge-deck, and doesn't run an excessive number of ETB tapped lands. Urborg turns every basic non-swamp basic land into a dual land, and every fetchland and mana confluence into a source of no-damage mana. In general it has what it needs to cast Sidisi or Seige Rhino on turn 4, as well as a turn 3 Necropolis Fiend. The only meaningful card that would be difficult to hit would be an early Dig Through Time.
Reading your post got me thinking, and I threw this rough pile together as a result. It needs work, there's no question there, but I think it would be a fun starting point to build the kind of deck you mentioned. You also had 27 lands, not 26.
You are right, I meant to have one less Sandsteppe Citadel. My only comment on the deck list right now is that I would run some number of Satyr Wayfinder, Nyx Weaver, or Commune With the Gods (first two preferable) to get more cards in the graveyard. Right now you just have Sidisi. Having at least Satyr Wayfinder lets you possibly get out a Hornet Queen or Ashen Rider on T5, or a Necropolis Fiend around turn 4.
The deck matches up well with Jeskai Wins. It has a lot of lifegain to trudge through burn spells, and fliers that can disrupt Mantis Rider and Sarkhan/Stormbreath. Jeskai also tends to lack a lot of answers for Whip, and just fold to a T4 Whip, T5 Ashen Rider/Hornet Queen. I chose to move Abzan Charms to the sideboard because Sultai Charm is a little more versatile and Hero's Downfall gives the deck more answers for planeswalkers. I have not had problems hard-casting Hornet Queen late in the game or playing Empty the Pits (two Urborg generally make it feasible), but I definitely would consider playing some Dig Through Time and reconfiguring the manabase.
I say it matches up well with Jeskai Wins because they don't run a lot of enchantment removal maindeck (2 Banishing Light) and don't have great answers to any threat with more than 4 life. Post board is more challenging, when they bring in Erase and counterspells. However, the sideboard can be a transformation towards more of a 4C control build. You can take out your Whips along with Commune With the Gods, Hornet Queen, and Ashen Rider to get away from reanimation.
I've tested the deck a little against UB Control and Abzan Midrange, but not a lot. UB is a relatively binary matchup, as the only super dangerous threat is a turn 3 Ashiok. That matchup convinced me to run the Hero's Downfalls in the main. Abzan is tough, but this deck has slightly better disruption and has a major advantage if it can reanimate any threat.
I am very disappointed with the lack of results this deck posted in states and the ptq. I think there is something here and we just aren't hitting it yet. I just don't know what it is we need to fix!
I've been testing Christian Seibold's list, and I really feel like I'm wasting my graveyard's power. Sure, Whip and Soul of Innistrad can take back some stuff, and murderous cut almost always costs B due to delve. But, most times, at the late game, I end up having 10+ cards in the yard unused. I think we need some more powerful delve spells in this list, like 2 x Empty the Pits and maybe some Dig Through Time, aren't we supposed to be abusing the delve mechanic? What do you guys think? This list just screams Empty the Pits to me.
Any more than a one off in this deck and its just useless. I ran two at one point to test it out. I would get two in my hand and it would be game over for me.
I've been testing Christian Seibold's list, and I really feel like I'm wasting my graveyard's power. Sure, Whip and Soul of Innistrad can take back some stuff, and murderous cut almost always costs B due to delve. But, most times, at the late game, I end up having 10+ cards in the yard unused. I think we need some more powerful delve spells in this list, like 2 x Empty the Pits and maybe some Dig Through Time, aren't we supposed to be abusing the delve mechanic? What do you guys think? This list just screams Empty the Pits to me.
Because Delve isn't a particularly strong mechanic right now. It's strong in that it makes spells cheap early-to-mid game, but not one Delve target in particular is very powerful per se. That's why you're seeing people move their list toward a 4th color, W, when they should simply play Abzan reanimator (in my opinion) or shift toward a midrange/control hybrid approach.
I think people are trying to push Delve too much simply for Delve sake when they could just build more focused Midrange builds with graveyard elements that happen to also use some powerful delve spells.
Hell, you could feasibly go 4C Midrange considering the powerful overlap Wayfinder+Whip+Rhino and Wayfinder+Whip+Sidisi has and it would synergize with whatever Delve spell you choose to compliment it with, be that Murderous Cut, Empty the Pits, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time or none at all. Your mana wouldn't even be much worse that a conventional 3C build since you'd essentially be BGwu.
Something like:
Elvish Mystic
Satyr Wayfinder
Sylvan Caryatid
Courser of Kruphix
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Siege Rhino
Whip of Erebos
Hornet Queen
4 Opulent Palace
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
Look pretty powerful and focused to me from where I'm standing.
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My list is significantly different as in I don't run the whip but I do however run a ton more removal as well as mainboard sweepers. Sidisi is mainly used to fuel more removal, allowing to beat face freely.
Thanks for the feedback enveryone. I know the deck is quite good, but I feel like I'm wasting graveyard power when I play it ( as I said, most times I end up with 10+ cards milled in there and nothing to do with them ). The 4C reanimator looks like the way to go for me, I'm gonna try getting an Abzan Reanimator list and fitting some Sidisis and Sultai Charms in there. I'm thinking about this list Texas State Championship. Changing: -2 Necropolis Fiend and -1Ashen Rider for +4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, also -3 See the Unwritten for +2 Sultai Charm. I don't know about Rescue from the Underworld though, should I take it for more removal? Hero's Downfall or more Charms maybe. I would love to hear your suggestions.
Thanks for the feedback enveryone. I know the deck is quite good, but I feel like I'm wasting graveyard power when I play it ( as I said, most times I end up with 10+ cards milled in there and nothing to do with them ). The 4C reanimator looks like the way to go for me, I'm gonna try getting an Abzan Reanimator list and fitting some Sidisis and Sultai Charms in there. I'm thinking about this list Texas State Championship. Changing: -2 Necropolis Fiend and -1Ashen Rider for +4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, also -3 See the Unwritten for +2 Sultai Charm. I don't know about Rescue from the Underworld though, should I take it for more removal? Hero's Downfall or more Charms maybe. I would love to hear your suggestions.
1. Don't think of the graveyard as 'power'- just think of it as a tool to cast cards appropriately or slightly cheaper than they should be. Murderous cut for example loses power if you cast if for more than 1B (i.e. doomblade). If you can cast cards for their proper power or for slightly less then you're doing fine.
2. You just removed a ton of power in favor or weaker cards. Ashen Rider is a primary selling point of W along with Siege Rhino for example.
Sorry, I didn't have the time to write why I chose the cards out. I took out Necropolis Fiend because it is a good card, but Sidisi is better. Ashen Rider is certainly powerful, but I still don't think I'd be able to hardcast it.And that's something I wanted to ask, how many of her is enough? Will it be a dead card in your hand? I saw some other lists playing 4 of her... And about See the Unwritten, I still need to do the math over the chances of getting something with a bigger cost from it.
Edit.: I did some lame calculations here, if we suppose that we can cast the spell in the 5th turn, without milling any card out in the way, the chances of getting a 6 or more CMC creature are 53%, while the chances of getting any 4 or more CMC creature are 84%. I don't know if it's right, but this card now seems much more playable in this deck than I thought. Later on the game, it might even mill some cards for Sidisi or we could even cast it with the ferocious enabled.
Have anybody tryed hooting mandrils? Is it any good?
It's an interesting card, we could easily play it with G. But it falls for the same reason as Nemesis of Mortals. The 4C reanimator is already too tight to fit it, but you could try it in a more delve based Sultai deck.
Why does Nemesis get such a bad rep? Pretty much every game I play as soon as I bring it out I can see the opponent's eyes rolling, especially on turn 3 if I get a good dig from a Wayfinder. With Whip it just breaks their will, late game just whip it back, Monstruous it, smack for 10 and gain 10 life. It doesn't have trample, unfortunately, but it's more than just a big fattie. Siege Rhino is nicer, I admit that, though.
Why does Nemesis get such a bad rep? Pretty much every game I play as soon as I bring it out I can see the opponent's eyes rolling, especially on turn 3 if I get a good dig from a Wayfinder. With Whip it just breaks their will, late game just whip it back, Monstruous it, smack for 10 and gain 10 life. It doesn't have trample, unfortunately, but it's more than just a big fattie. Siege Rhino is nicer, I admit that, though.
Because it's JUST a 5/5 for GG and a 10/10 for GGGG, but that's all it will ever do. It has no monstrous trigger or ETB ability, so the "dies to removal" argument is somewhat valid because you get ZERO value if it's removed before you untap.
The issue with Nemisis, and any creature for that matter basically boils down to logistics. Nemisis is a big dumb (for the most part) under costed beater and that is not a bad thing by itself. He is firmly out of Burn range, matches up well against Siege Rhino's and is generally the biggest thing on the board or quickly threatens to be. He does however have two key limitations, one being that he has no evasion and 2, the fact that you are running him in your deck in the first place.
This is not a criticism but including and omitting cards in your decks has real costs and effects and with deck space tight enough as it is, some lists simply cannot afford to run a vanilla beater, regardless of how big or efficient it might be.
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You might want to take a look at the previous lists we discussed here, there are some cards in your list that don't go well together (Nighthowler and delve spells for example). If you want a budget list, you can just get the one posted here from Christian Seibold, and cut some more expensive cards like Courser of Kruphix and the fetches.
I think people are trying to push Delve too much simply for Delve sake when they could just build more focused Midrange builds with graveyard elements that happen to also use some powerful delve spells.
Hell, you could feasibly go 4C Midrange considering the powerful overlap Wayfinder+Whip+Rhino and Wayfinder+Whip+Sidisi has and it would synergize with whatever Delve spell you choose to compliment it with, be that Murderous Cut, Empty the Pits, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time or none at all. Your mana wouldn't even be much worse that a conventional 3C build since you'd essentially be BGwu.
Something like:
Elvish Mystic
Satyr Wayfinder
Sylvan Caryatid
Courser of Kruphix
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Siege Rhino
Whip of Erebos
Hornet Queen
4 Opulent Palace
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
Look pretty powerful and focused to me from where I'm standing.
I'm not sure if Pharika actually fits, but she can be used to turn non-Whip creatures (Mystic, Caryatid, and Wayfinder) into 1/1 deathtouch blockers. She's almost a repeatable Delve spell, but if that's not value enough I could see her being Nyx Weaver to fuel Sidisi and get back creatures. Banishing Light can be grabbed off Commune, which basically acts as a Sidisi enabler, Delve enabler, and a "draw" spell by letting you choose the best card from the top 5. It might be better to go with 4 Murderous Cuts instead of the 2/2 split with B. Light, though.
It would be really scary to see somebody curve Siege Rhino into a bestowed Herald of Torment.
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Bloodsoaked Champion
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Nyx Weaver
2x Herald of Torment
1x Nighthowler
4x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
1x Doomwake Giant
3x Nemesis of Mortals
Other (12)
3x Commune with the Gods
3x Murderous Cut
2x Whip of Erebos
2x Chord of Calling
2x Sultai Charm
4x Opulent Palace
3x Yavimaya Coast
2x Llanowar Wastes
2x Mana Confluence
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Temple of Mystery
2x Polluted Delta
3x Forest
2x Island
1x Swamp
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Soul of Innistrad
2x Drown in Sorrow
3x Nylea's Disciple
1x Whip of Erebos
2x Hornet Queen
1x Doomwake Giant
3x Master of the Feast
Well, for one it does nothing to the cards already in your GY. My guess is she can eat a Downfall / Cut, otherwise just hardcast guys and hold on to your Sidisi?
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
You are right, I meant to have one less Sandsteppe Citadel. My only comment on the deck list right now is that I would run some number of Satyr Wayfinder, Nyx Weaver, or Commune With the Gods (first two preferable) to get more cards in the graveyard. Right now you just have Sidisi. Having at least Satyr Wayfinder lets you possibly get out a Hornet Queen or Ashen Rider on T5, or a Necropolis Fiend around turn 4.
2 Ashen Rider
3 Hornet Queen
3 Necropolis Fiend
2 Nyx Weaver
3 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sidisi, Blood Tyrant
3 Siege Rhino
Spells (14)
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Empty the Pits
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Sultai Charm
2 Utter End
2 Commune with the Gods
3 Forest
1 Island
4 Mana Confluence
4 Opulent Palace
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Windswept Heath
2 Banishing Light
3 Abzan Charm
2 Dig Through Time
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Dissolve
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
The deck matches up well with Jeskai Wins. It has a lot of lifegain to trudge through burn spells, and fliers that can disrupt Mantis Rider and Sarkhan/Stormbreath. Jeskai also tends to lack a lot of answers for Whip, and just fold to a T4 Whip, T5 Ashen Rider/Hornet Queen. I chose to move Abzan Charms to the sideboard because Sultai Charm is a little more versatile and Hero's Downfall gives the deck more answers for planeswalkers. I have not had problems hard-casting Hornet Queen late in the game or playing Empty the Pits (two Urborg generally make it feasible), but I definitely would consider playing some Dig Through Time and reconfiguring the manabase.
I say it matches up well with Jeskai Wins because they don't run a lot of enchantment removal maindeck (2 Banishing Light) and don't have great answers to any threat with more than 4 life. Post board is more challenging, when they bring in Erase and counterspells. However, the sideboard can be a transformation towards more of a 4C control build. You can take out your Whips along with Commune With the Gods, Hornet Queen, and Ashen Rider to get away from reanimation.
I've tested the deck a little against UB Control and Abzan Midrange, but not a lot. UB is a relatively binary matchup, as the only super dangerous threat is a turn 3 Ashiok. That matchup convinced me to run the Hero's Downfalls in the main. Abzan is tough, but this deck has slightly better disruption and has a major advantage if it can reanimate any threat.
23 lands.
4 Opulent Palace
1 Temple of Mystery
4 Poluted Delta
2 Evolwing wilds
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Swamp
16 Spells
4 Dig Through Time
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Bow of Nyelea
2 Bile Blight
2 Commune with the Gods
21 Creatures
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Nighthowler
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
Sideboard:
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sagu Mauler
4 Reclamation Sage
2 Bile Blight
2 Murderus Cut
2 Whip of Erebos
Because Delve isn't a particularly strong mechanic right now. It's strong in that it makes spells cheap early-to-mid game, but not one Delve target in particular is very powerful per se. That's why you're seeing people move their list toward a 4th color, W, when they should simply play Abzan reanimator (in my opinion) or shift toward a midrange/control hybrid approach.
BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]Slivers (Overlord as general)BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]
BMono Black (Xiahou Dun as general)B
Hell, you could feasibly go 4C Midrange considering the powerful overlap Wayfinder+Whip+Rhino and Wayfinder+Whip+Sidisi has and it would synergize with whatever Delve spell you choose to compliment it with, be that Murderous Cut, Empty the Pits, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time or none at all. Your mana wouldn't even be much worse that a conventional 3C build since you'd essentially be BGwu.
Something like:
Elvish Mystic
Satyr Wayfinder
Sylvan Caryatid
Courser of Kruphix
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Siege Rhino
Whip of Erebos
Hornet Queen
4 Opulent Palace
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
Look pretty powerful and focused to me from where I'm standing.
3x Dead Drop
4x Taigam's Scheming
3x Drown in Sorrow
Instant (06)
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Silence the Believers
2x Sultai Charm
Creature (20)
4x Satyr Wayfinder
3x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Nyx Weaver
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
3x Prognostic Sphinx
2x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Swamp
2x Island
3x Forest
3x Llanowar Wastes
2x Temple of Mystery
1x Temple of Deceit
2x Temple of Malady
2x Opulent Palace
1x Polluted Delta
1x Yavimaya Coast
3x Mana Confluence
3x Disdainful Stroke
4x Dissolve
2x Treasure Cruise
3x Negate
1x Hero's Downfall
1. Don't think of the graveyard as 'power'- just think of it as a tool to cast cards appropriately or slightly cheaper than they should be. Murderous cut for example loses power if you cast if for more than 1B (i.e. doomblade). If you can cast cards for their proper power or for slightly less then you're doing fine.
2. You just removed a ton of power in favor or weaker cards. Ashen Rider is a primary selling point of W along with Siege Rhino for example.
BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]Slivers (Overlord as general)BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]
BMono Black (Xiahou Dun as general)B
Edit.: I did some lame calculations here, if we suppose that we can cast the spell in the 5th turn, without milling any card out in the way, the chances of getting a 6 or more CMC creature are 53%, while the chances of getting any 4 or more CMC creature are 84%. I don't know if it's right, but this card now seems much more playable in this deck than I thought. Later on the game, it might even mill some cards for Sidisi or we could even cast it with the ferocious enabled.
It's an interesting card, we could easily play it with G. But it falls for the same reason as Nemesis of Mortals. The 4C reanimator is already too tight to fit it, but you could try it in a more delve based Sultai deck.
Because it's JUST a 5/5 for GG and a 10/10 for GGGG, but that's all it will ever do. It has no monstrous trigger or ETB ability, so the "dies to removal" argument is somewhat valid because you get ZERO value if it's removed before you untap.
This is not a criticism but including and omitting cards in your decks has real costs and effects and with deck space tight enough as it is, some lists simply cannot afford to run a vanilla beater, regardless of how big or efficient it might be.
You might want to take a look at the previous lists we discussed here, there are some cards in your list that don't go well together (Nighthowler and delve spells for example). If you want a budget list, you can just get the one posted here from Christian Seibold, and cut some more expensive cards like Courser of Kruphix and the fetches.
Something like this?
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Herald of Torment
2 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Murderous Cut
Enchantment (2)
2 Banishing Light
Sorcery (4)
4 Commune with the Gods
Artifact (2)
2 Whip of Erebos
I'm not sure if Pharika actually fits, but she can be used to turn non-Whip creatures (Mystic, Caryatid, and Wayfinder) into 1/1 deathtouch blockers. She's almost a repeatable Delve spell, but if that's not value enough I could see her being Nyx Weaver to fuel Sidisi and get back creatures. Banishing Light can be grabbed off Commune, which basically acts as a Sidisi enabler, Delve enabler, and a "draw" spell by letting you choose the best card from the top 5. It might be better to go with 4 Murderous Cuts instead of the 2/2 split with B. Light, though.
It would be really scary to see somebody curve Siege Rhino into a bestowed Herald of Torment.