How has Wingmate Roc been working out for those that are playing it? For me it's been a dead draw more often than not because I just can't trigger raid reliably. I run Indulgent Tormentor instead and I won't lie it eats removal almost every game but in a way that's a good thing. It's an immediate threat that must be answered before things get out of hand. Can't really say the same for the Roc.
I disliked it at first, but the more I look at it, the more and more I like it.
I was actually wondering how a build with both Deathdealer and Fleecemane would be like and then I saw this list. I really like the list and will probably be giving it a go for FNM
Hmm, i dont like this list that much. Are the Deathdealers really that good, so that you want to play 4 of them ?
If you want to pump them up, you probably dont have mana for your other stuff. This list hast no flyers, but itself (only the vampires from sorin).
I had to really look into it to get what he's doing here.
- Deathdealer means your aggro match up (and especially your Mono Black aggro one) is better.
- Leaving mana open when he attacks bluffs in the early game.
- Fleecemace Lion and Deathdealer have potential to survive board wipes.
- Speaking of board wipes, Elspeth is a 3 of because you're using her -3 to clear out the board against other midrange decks. More than half your creatures survive it.
- I'm not too crazy about Anafenza, but I can get why it's there. I would use Brimaz instead but it messes up the mana base way too much, even with all the fixing. It's an aggressive midrange so she's fine.
I like that there's two or three cards flexible enough to swap. Personally I would take out one Deathdealer and one Courser for two Wingmate Rocs.
Any change to make? Or any card decision that you may want to ask for?
Nice list! I would move End Hostilities to Side. And maybe bring Ajani steadfast or sorin to main deck. But i would like to give it a try! I would say it almost an control deck.
Lots of removal but it comes past 3rd turn. Looks like Aggro would run all over this deck especially with all the tap lands. Having a 3rd turn tap land is probably game.
Also I don't like all the White based removal *4 Utter End* is just too much. A resolved Stormbreath is going to be GG unless you have Downfall.
Losing a Carytid also seems like a good way to lose with this deck. And getting your 2 Rhinos or 3 Elspeth removed or TS/Despised is pretty much GG.
Sorry to be so negative, but Junk in the past has been resiliant on many angles, but this version looks purposefully weak on too many angles.
I'm wondering now if we aren't all overrating Siege Rhino just a little bit. Consider that Reaper of the Wilds is the same P/T and same CMC and it's not appearing in any of these decks while the Rhino is pretty much always a 4-of. The drain 3 on the Rhino is pretty nice, but after that one-time thing you have something just slightly better than a vanilla 4/5 (trample is not too significant for 4 power), while Reaper gives you potential for repeated scry and has other combat tricks.
I'm wondering now if we aren't all overrating Siege Rhino just a little bit. Consider that Reaper of the Wilds is the same P/T and same CMC and it's not appearing in any of these decks while the Rhino is pretty much always a 4-of. The drain 3 on the Rhino is pretty nice, but after that one-time thing you have something just slightly better than a vanilla 4/5 (trample is not too significant for 4 power), while Reaper gives you potential for repeated scry and has other combat tricks.
It comes down to how much removal you are seeing to some degree I suspect. If your expectancy is that your 4 drop is going to be removed immediately then Rhino is much stronger than Reaper. But then you look at the sort of decks that might not immediately remove it (aggro and midrange) and of them Rhino is better vs aggro due to the lifegain. So it really comes down to if you can stick your 4 drop and for how long. Reaper has some potential to be better but its more in situations where both sides build up and cannot get through which is likely to be more of like mirror match situations. I think personally the Rhino is more rounded as a creature but you are not incorrect that there are times where Reaper is better.
Also, if you look to do any sort of flickering / recursion then Rhino becomes much more powerful again. I really like him with a few Whip in deck.
EDIT: as a side note, I have been contemplating bringing in 1x Murderous Cut into my mainboard just for the dragons. I think with a light splash it really opens up the removal vs stormbreath. The problem is if I cut into the exile package it hurts me vs Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. It is one of those removal effects that works better the later into the game you draw it but I could definitely see it being playable as a 1-2 of. Possibly one main with one in the side... I suppose Plummet could be a consideration sort of sideboard card depending on how much fliers we end up seeing post rotation. Lots of things to test and consider going forward.
How has Wingmate Roc been working out for those that are playing it? For me it's been a dead draw more often than not because I just can't trigger raid reliably. I run Indulgent Tormentor instead and I won't lie it eats removal almost every game but in a way that's a good thing. It's an immediate threat that must be answered before things get out of hand. Can't really say the same for the Roc.
It can never be a "dead draw" as long as you have the mana to cast it. You might not maximize it, but you are still getting a 3/4 flier.
The other thing, and this is why I dislike Sorin, if Wingmate Roc is a bad card because you can't trigger raid reliably, then Sorin is even a worse draw since the +1 which everyone is lauding doesn't do anything if you don't have creatures. And if you do have creatures then you should get the raid trigger on Wingmate Roc.
I suspect you are going to want more than 1 mana confluence to be honest. I would also suggest cutting out a swamp and adding a second urborg. I think scry lands are going to be your enemy if you are running that much early game so I would possibly cut back on them a little and I think you could use more painlands. Elspeth also feels really awkward in the main when the rest of your list curves out at 4. I dont know if she belongs in that list at all to be honest. It feels more like you would be better served by cutting her out and possibly going to 23 lands as it stands. 24 is probably still ok since you have quite a bit in the 3-4 range but elspeth doesn't feel like she fits to me in this list.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I like this list. It's more aggro than what I'm aiming for, but who knows, maybe that's the right way to go. I'll be interested to see how it turns out. I do agree with the other comment that you may have too many lands coming in tapped for a deck that is running this much aggro.
Anyone playing the faster version of this deck (5-8 two-drop cats) considered dropping Courser of Kruphix? I feel like Courser has a huge mark on him right now. I feel crazy saying this, because it was one of the incentives to play this, and it's an incredible card. But what if we are able to create beefier threats at every point on the curve? We have access to such great three drop creatures which are getting shaved for our 3 mana removal (Anafenza and Brimaz).
I am going to go out on a limb and say that if you play the faster version, you should cut courser and add a couple ajani's. Since your creatures will always be stronger than reds, aggro shouldn't be as much of a problem, and to combat other midrange decks, using ajani to pump up your guys or draw threats is a huge plus. I wouldn't be surprised if the deck turns into a more aggro based deck that tops at Ajani.
Also, instead of 3 mana removal spells you can run the new journey to know where, which will help you clear threats that attacking into wouldn't kill. Could bring the curve down substantially.
(oh, and instead of sorin, run maybe a couple polukranos in his place)
Anyone playing the faster version of this deck (5-8 two-drop cats) considered dropping Courser of Kruphix? I feel like Courser has a huge mark on him right now. I feel crazy saying this, because it was one of the incentives to play this, and it's an incredible card. But what if we are able to create beefier threats at every point on the curve? We have access to such great three drop creatures which are getting shaved for our 3 mana removal (Anafenza and Brimaz).
Most iterations of the deck can afford to run 4 Courser, 6-7 kill spells, and 2-4 Brimaz/Anafenza as it is, but if you want to go faster, I suppose Courser is where you would make the first cut. I would still run a copy or two though, since he provides a decent amount of lifegain and card advantage alongside a reasonable body.
I tried out the no-courser deck and it went well. Undefeated at FNM. Creatures were 0 Courser, 3 Rakshasa, 4 Fleecemane Lion, 2 Brimaz, 2 Anafenza, Siege Rhinos, Caryatids, Wingmate Roc. Given that it was week 1, I opted for 4 thought seize main board. My planeswalkers were 2x Elspeth, 1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, and 1x Sorin. I was pushed into this list largely because of card availability, but it ended up playing very smoothly. I would like to play more Wingmate Rocs for tomorrow's tournament, but I would keep the creature base similar or possibly +1 Brimaz. I would consider playing a couple of Coursers for the great value, but will not default to 4 anymore until the format shakes out. Beating down felt good.
(Opponents were on Temur ramp, UB [budget] control, Mardu warriors, boss sligh, temur midrange/control. I think there was something else that I forgot).
Rakshasha seems best as a 2 of, it isn't great early or in multiples. I prefer Sorin over Ajani, our 4drops are an important part of the curve with Sylvan Caryatids. Wingmate Roc is a strong 2of, Elspeth as a one of if at all I'd think. Did you ever consider 1-2Polukranos?
ended up 3-2, losing in... the mirror. alololol. good LORD those were grindy matchups. "who keeps elspeth alive for a few turns first" is an exciting game, i tell you. crushed it, otherwise. beat rabblered, monoblack, and some green/white devotion brew that was actually pretty decent. ended up making a few last minute changes, brought this:
thanks for the land suggestions, i took your advice and went -2 swamp, +1 urborg, +1 mana confluence. i liked it.
i was always happy to draw wingmate roc. it won my games in the mirror.
i really like the rakshasa deathdealer, but if i were to cut anything for draw/removal, it would be him.
i want to draw more cards in the mirror. liliana was brought in the board by one of the mirrors and it was great. it only lasted one turn, but it did enough to get there. those games were full of clogged boards of elspeth tokens and indestructible cats and caryatids and got really, really dumb.
i wish i had had despise somewhere. i just took it out yesterday and i regret it.
i'll post more tomorrow, but i want to share that the deck was, overall, a tremendous success - in fact, it was a victim of its own success in a way.
Wingmate Rocs good enough to go more than 2? Havent tried them out, thinking about getting some as I think they are gonna go up.
They are already at 10 dollars a pop, I doubt they go up much if at all. It's solid, slightly conditional an it.tops the curve. I think 0-3 depending on the list. To me, Elspeth is a bit clunky at 6 mana, we won't use the sweep effect like ccontrol to get maximum value and if your list is more aggressive midrange Wingmate just seems all around betterto me.
Went 3-1 tonight at FNM with Abzan Midrange. The deck is solid, and I definitely like having Fleecemane and Deathdealer in the main. Oftentimes I'd play them turn two, holding onto my Caryatid (unless I was prepped for T3 Polukranos/Rhino). The manabase was tougher than I wanted it to be, though, as my list ran more Temples than I should have run. Next time I rock all four fetches and more painlands.
I'll try and post my decklist when I get back from work.
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Otherwise it's just awful awful...
so much value.... or nothing..
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Swamp
2 Caves of Koilos
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Siege Rhino
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Rakshasa deathdealer
4 Abzan Charm
What does everyone think of this list
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
I disliked it at first, but the more I look at it, the more and more I like it.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I was actually wondering how a build with both Deathdealer and Fleecemane would be like and then I saw this list. I really like the list and will probably be giving it a go for FNM
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
I had to really look into it to get what he's doing here.
- Deathdealer means your aggro match up (and especially your Mono Black aggro one) is better.
- Leaving mana open when he attacks bluffs in the early game.
- Fleecemace Lion and Deathdealer have potential to survive board wipes.
- Speaking of board wipes, Elspeth is a 3 of because you're using her -3 to clear out the board against other midrange decks. More than half your creatures survive it.
- I'm not too crazy about Anafenza, but I can get why it's there. I would use Brimaz instead but it messes up the mana base way too much, even with all the fixing. It's an aggressive midrange so she's fine.
I like that there's two or three cards flexible enough to swap. Personally I would take out one Deathdealer and one Courser for two Wingmate Rocs.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Nice list! I would move End Hostilities to Side. And maybe bring Ajani steadfast or sorin to main deck. But i would like to give it a try! I would say it almost an control deck.
Also I don't like all the White based removal *4 Utter End* is just too much. A resolved Stormbreath is going to be GG unless you have Downfall.
Losing a Carytid also seems like a good way to lose with this deck. And getting your 2 Rhinos or 3 Elspeth removed or TS/Despised is pretty much GG.
Sorry to be so negative, but Junk in the past has been resiliant on many angles, but this version looks purposefully weak on too many angles.
It comes down to how much removal you are seeing to some degree I suspect. If your expectancy is that your 4 drop is going to be removed immediately then Rhino is much stronger than Reaper. But then you look at the sort of decks that might not immediately remove it (aggro and midrange) and of them Rhino is better vs aggro due to the lifegain. So it really comes down to if you can stick your 4 drop and for how long. Reaper has some potential to be better but its more in situations where both sides build up and cannot get through which is likely to be more of like mirror match situations. I think personally the Rhino is more rounded as a creature but you are not incorrect that there are times where Reaper is better.
Also, if you look to do any sort of flickering / recursion then Rhino becomes much more powerful again. I really like him with a few Whip in deck.
EDIT: as a side note, I have been contemplating bringing in 1x Murderous Cut into my mainboard just for the dragons. I think with a light splash it really opens up the removal vs stormbreath. The problem is if I cut into the exile package it hurts me vs Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. It is one of those removal effects that works better the later into the game you draw it but I could definitely see it being playable as a 1-2 of. Possibly one main with one in the side... I suppose Plummet could be a consideration sort of sideboard card depending on how much fliers we end up seeing post rotation. Lots of things to test and consider going forward.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
It can never be a "dead draw" as long as you have the mana to cast it. You might not maximize it, but you are still getting a 3/4 flier.
The other thing, and this is why I dislike Sorin, if Wingmate Roc is a bad card because you can't trigger raid reliably, then Sorin is even a worse draw since the +1 which everyone is lauding doesn't do anything if you don't have creatures. And if you do have creatures then you should get the raid trigger on Wingmate Roc.
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 windswept heath
3 temple of malady
2 temple of silence
2 temple of plenty
2 caves of koilos
2 llanowar wastes
1 sandsteppe citadel
1 mana confluence
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 fleecemane lion
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
instants 7
3 abzan charm
3 hero's downfall
1 utter end
planeswalkers 3
2 elspeth, sun's champion
1 sorin, solemn visitor
sorceries 6
4 thoughtseize
2 despise
4 drown in sorrow
3 nyx-fleece ram
3 bile blight
3 mistcutter hydra
1 hero's downfall
1 utter end
I'm really excited to read tournament reports!
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
I suspect you are going to want more than 1 mana confluence to be honest. I would also suggest cutting out a swamp and adding a second urborg. I think scry lands are going to be your enemy if you are running that much early game so I would possibly cut back on them a little and I think you could use more painlands. Elspeth also feels really awkward in the main when the rest of your list curves out at 4. I dont know if she belongs in that list at all to be honest. It feels more like you would be better served by cutting her out and possibly going to 23 lands as it stands. 24 is probably still ok since you have quite a bit in the 3-4 range but elspeth doesn't feel like she fits to me in this list.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I like this list. It's more aggro than what I'm aiming for, but who knows, maybe that's the right way to go. I'll be interested to see how it turns out. I do agree with the other comment that you may have too many lands coming in tapped for a deck that is running this much aggro.
RG Urza Tron (Modern)
BGR Punishing Jund (Legacy)
Also, instead of 3 mana removal spells you can run the new journey to know where, which will help you clear threats that attacking into wouldn't kill. Could bring the curve down substantially.
(oh, and instead of sorin, run maybe a couple polukranos in his place)
Most iterations of the deck can afford to run 4 Courser, 6-7 kill spells, and 2-4 Brimaz/Anafenza as it is, but if you want to go faster, I suppose Courser is where you would make the first cut. I would still run a copy or two though, since he provides a decent amount of lifegain and card advantage alongside a reasonable body.
(Opponents were on Temur ramp, UB [budget] control, Mardu warriors, boss sligh, temur midrange/control. I think there was something else that I forgot).
RG Urza Tron (Modern)
BGR Punishing Jund (Legacy)
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 windswept heath
3 temple of malady
2 temple of silence
2 temple of plenty
2 caves of koilos
2 llanowar wastes
1 sandsteppe citadel
2 mana confluence
2 forest
2 plains
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 fleecemane lion
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 wingmate roc
instants 6
3 abzan charm
3 hero's downfall
planeswalkers 4
2 elspeth, sun's champion
2 sorin, solemn visitor
4 thoughtseize
3 drown in sorrow
3 nyx-fleece ram
3 bile blight
3 mistcutter hydra
1 hero's downfall
2 utter end
thanks for the land suggestions, i took your advice and went -2 swamp, +1 urborg, +1 mana confluence. i liked it.
i was always happy to draw wingmate roc. it won my games in the mirror.
i really like the rakshasa deathdealer, but if i were to cut anything for draw/removal, it would be him.
i want to draw more cards in the mirror. liliana was brought in the board by one of the mirrors and it was great. it only lasted one turn, but it did enough to get there. those games were full of clogged boards of elspeth tokens and indestructible cats and caryatids and got really, really dumb.
i wish i had had despise somewhere. i just took it out yesterday and i regret it.
i'll post more tomorrow, but i want to share that the deck was, overall, a tremendous success - in fact, it was a victim of its own success in a way.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Rakshasa Death Dealer
3 Fleecemane Lion
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Anafenza, The Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
1 Polukranos World Eater
2 Wingmate Roc
4 Thoughtseize
1 Despise
Instants
3 Azban Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Utter End
Planeswalkers
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plains
3 Forest
2 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Malady
2 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Swamp
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Llanowar Wastes
Azban Rock feels super strong right now.
Peak rating 1832
Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
They are already at 10 dollars a pop, I doubt they go up much if at all. It's solid, slightly conditional an it.tops the curve. I think 0-3 depending on the list. To me, Elspeth is a bit clunky at 6 mana, we won't use the sweep effect like ccontrol to get maximum value and if your list is more aggressive midrange Wingmate just seems all around betterto me.
I'll try and post my decklist when I get back from work.