Deck is still a work in progress. I still can't decide on whether I should be running Underworld Connections over Sign in Blood. Connections definitely provides longer term, incremental card advantage, while Blood gives more explosive answers by drawing into removal spells quicker. Post-Rotation, I'll definitely be running Blood, unless Khans of Takir provides something better. Plus Blood helps the deck curve out quicker. I'm VERY unsure about running Nissa's Expedition in this deck. Since there isn't a 2 or 3 drop land fetch card currently in the format (ala Farseek, Cultivate, Rampant Growth, etc) Expedition will have to do. With Nissa, Worldwaker coming down on turn 5, it's not inconceivable to use her +1 Forest untap ability, play Nissa's Expedition on the same turn, and cast Garruk, Apex Predator turn 6. Or I may run another Liliana of the Dark Realms in Expedition's place.
Edited the deck to implement some of the changes other players in the post have recommended. The process of the edits can be found further in the thread. I'll keep updating the this first post to reflect those changes. Thanks for the critiques guys! Please keep them coming!
with Nissa coming down on turn 5, with no creatures to activate convoke, and using her +1 you get at best 4 mana (that is if you have 4 forests in play, which is highly unlikely considering you have 7 in total). how do you cast Nissa's expedition on the same turn?
having said that, the deck has another issue that needs to be addressed: you have no blockers. until you put down nissa or garruk, you have nothing but removal to defend yourself with. now that is ok if your opponent is playing midrange, but rdw or WW will get so many creatures on the field that single target removal is not going to get you far. I'd play a full set of Sylvan caryatid (which also helps you to put your PW down quicker) and a set of Hornet nest.
I play BG at the monet and I'm planning to keep playing it in the next few months, and one card that I'd find really difficult to take out of the deck is Lotleth Troll, that guy can block forever. i won a standard tournament last night mainly because of him
seriously, no blockers no party
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
I would say drop the gimmicky cards (Staff, Restock, Life's Legazy, Nissa's Expedition) and include courser and caryatid, otherwise you're just stone dead to aggro, you will propably also need some x for ones such as Bile Blight and Drown in sorrows.
You're right about not being able to cast Nissa, Worldwaker and Nissa's Expedition in the same turn. I was thinking Nissa was a 4 drop (old Nissa is, and I'm running her in a Modern Elves deck) and got confused. My bad. The lack of blockers does bother me, and I agree with you on adding 2 Hornet's Nest in place of the 2 Mainboard Golgari Charms and 3 Sylvan Caryatids in place of Life's Legacy, Restock, and Nissa's Expedition. I'll playtest it tonight and see how it goes.
Made some corrections to the deck and took out the more "gimmicky" cards (although I haven't totally given up on them just yet). I'm running 2 Bile Blights in the sideboard and can't see myself running any more than that at the moment. There's already so much creature removal in the deck, having any more seems redundant.
Vraska... I considered running her as well, but she just wouldn't fit. Nissa, Worldwaker already holds her slot, and Liliana of the Dark Realms comes down a turn early and acts as both mana ramp and psuedo removal, which is what this deck does best and is all about.
test so far is pretty good. it would bee to easy to say that nissa and garruk are awesome (cos they obviously are), the real winner form me so far has been Hornet nest. I'm playing monoG devotion and my opponent has a a polukranos and a 6/6 genesis hydra...and they do absolutely nothing. if he attacks, i'm going to get 11 insects that are going to kill his hydras when they attack again. i have him completely stalled, i get time to put down my lands, play my plaswalkers, get a couple of darksteel citadel to become 4/4 tramplers, put down garruk, kill his nissa (seriously, kill target plans walker as a +1 is INSANE) and so on.
other interesting things: Nissa+verdant heaven+hydra brood master= TONS OF FUN
i'm going to cry the day that golgari charm rotates out...doom blade for enchantment creatures, 2 mana instant wrath of god against rdw, ww and slivers, big middle finger to supreme verdict
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Sorry, I may just not be familiar enough with standard, but what is the point of Darksteel Citadel? I didn't think there was any prominent land destruction.
EDIT: Woops, I kinda completely missed that interaction. Nevermind!
Sorry, I may just not be familiar enough with standard, but what is the point of Darksteel Citadel? I didn't think there was any prominent land destruction.
because 4/4 trample indestructible haste are nice ( Nissa, worldwaker)
After playing against it, I really want to find a spot for scuttling doom engine. at the moment i'm finding soul of phyrexia's instant "everything is indestructible" pretty useful, and popping hydras out of broodmaster is way too much fun, so the alternative would be genesis hydra. while just win more when casted with x=6or7 (because if i can cast it at that much i'm probably ahead and stabilised already), it's actually pretty useful early in the game, if you get stuck, to find that extra caryatid/nest/heaven that kickstarts the deck.
egine on the other hand is very nice and useful....thoughts?
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
test so far is pretty good. it would bee to easy to say that nissa and garruk are awesome (cos they obviously are), the real winner form me so far has been Hornet nest. I'm playing monoG devotion and my opponent has a a polukranos and a 6/6 genesis hydra...and they do absolutely nothing. if he attacks, i'm going to get 11 insects that are going to kill his hydras when they attack again. i have him completely stalled, i get time to put down my lands, play my plaswalkers, get a couple of darksteel citadel to become 4/4 tramplers, put down garruk, kill his nissa (seriously, kill target plans walker as a +1 is INSANE) and so on.
other interesting things: Nissa+verdant heaven+hydra brood master= TONS OF FUN
i'm going to cry the day that golgari charm rotates out...doom blade for enchantment creatures, 2 mana instant wrath of god against rdw, ww and slivers, big middle finger to supreme verdict
Doc, I'm really liking your list. The only suggestion/modification I'd make to the deck would be to run 4 Courser of Kruphixes instead of 4 Verdant Havens. Courser provides better card advantage, a body to block with if you need it to, and great life gain in the long run.
EDIT: Never mind, I see the combo you mentioned earlier with Nissa, Broodmaster, and Haven. Very nice!
Made quite a few significant changes to the deck this week:
-4 Darksteel Citadel, +4 Golgari Guildgate: The reason for this became fairly obvious the more I played around with the deck. For starters, the deck requires a lot of mana fixing and I was running into not having double black and double green mana the turns I needed them on. As much as I love the idea having 4/4 indestructible tramplers (ala Nissa, Worldwaker's first +1 ability+Darksteel Citadel), being able to cast my spells consistently is more important.
-2 Liliana of the Dark Realms, -2 Staff of the Death Magus, +2 Hornet Nest, +1 Sylvan Caryatid: Having extra blockers that can potentially grow exponentially into a wall of flying, deathtouching insects definitely helps. So does having mana dorks that can't be targeted in a deck that requires a lot of mana. Staffs didn't really do much for the deck, and I found I was gaining much more life consistently with Whip of Erebos plus creatures doing damage (insects and elemental land creatures created by Nissa, Worldwaker). Keeping one Staff in the sideboard. Liliana was originally in the deck as an extra kill spell and psuedo mana acceleration but she's far too slow and doesn't really provide much defense.
+1 Dark Betrayal: Had a spot for it and it works as cheap removal when playing the mirror match or other decks that utilize black creatures.
Silence the Believers vs Pithing Needle: This is a hard decision to make and will probably be more of a meta call than anything else. There's not really that much reanimate in the format right now, so I feel like Pithing Needle is probably the safer bet. However, with creatures like Phytotitan entering the fray, and Khans of Takir just around the corner...
I've changed mine a bit too. from what i can see at the moment, there are going to be a lot of aggro decks. so i'm now going more the control way, main boarding two drown in sorrow in addition to abrupt decay,bile blight, golgari charm, hero's downfall and thoughtseize. I have added two scuttling doom engine...they are just so good! you can even destroy them yourself to deal the last 6 damage to kill the opponent! here is my updated list:
i have lowered the number of darksteel citadels, but usually thanks to urborg i don't have many problems with the mana.
unravel the aether is there to defend ourselves from an opposing doom engine since we can't destroy it.
the other new addition is hornet queen, she's so good at stalling the game...
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
i want to have as many forests as i can. at the moment i'm running 14, i wouldn't go below that. once overgrown tomb rotates out i won't have any choice, but the whole deck is going to change drastically at that point (losing decay and charm). between pain and temples i prefer temples
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Updated the deck again. Made (at least what I think) some MAJOR changes:
Main Deck
-4 Nissa, Worldwaker, +1 Vraska the Unseen, +2 Liliana Vess: Honestly, I should have seen this one a mile away. But I wanted so badly for Garruk, Apex Predator and Nissa to play together. But they just don't work in the control shell I'm going for. Liliana tutors for answers (removal, mana ramp via Courser of Kruphix, Sylvan Caryatid, and Garruk), and also makes opponents discard cards. In creature heavy decks, this works to our advantage, especially if we manage to get Liliana's ultimate off along with Whip of Erebos. Vraska acts as a wall against creatures and removal of other pesky permanents (like planeswalkers, enchantments, and artifacts). Plus I'm not running enough Forests to make Nissa's second +1 a viable option for ramping into Garruk. Her first +1 ability was also putting my mana base in peril, because my opponents kept killing them off as creatures, and I have no way of protecting them.
-4 Hornet Nest, +4 Courser of Kruphix: Courser does so many more things for the deck primarily by supplying even more life gain in a deck that truly needs it, mana ramp, and a decent body that can block and is just out of range of most low mana burn spells. Hornet Nest has been somewhat of a disappointment. Yes, it acts as a pseudo wall, but it doesn't do jack against fliers, unblockable creatures, etc. And they die easily to removal. Also, you can't run them along with Drown in Sorrow against aggro decks because they get destroyed as well and you don't get any insect tokens out of it.
+1 Rogue's Passage: A control deck like this really should be running 25 Lands. I was running 24 to begin with. And obviously Passage was created to help enable Vraska's ultimate to win you the game.
I've changed mine a bit too. from what i can see at the moment, there are going to be a lot of aggro decks. so i'm now going more the control way, main boarding two drown in sorrow in addition to abrupt decay,bile blight, golgari charm, hero's downfall and thoughtseize. I have added two scuttling doom engine...they are just so good! you can even destroy them yourself to deal the last 6 damage to kill the opponent! here is my updated list:
i have lowered the number of darksteel citadels, but usually thanks to urborg i don't have many problems with the mana.
unravel the aether is there to defend ourselves from an opposing doom engine since we can't destroy it.
the other new addition is hornet queen, she's so good at stalling the game...
List is looking good. I do have a few questions/suggestions:
1) Why are you running Erebos, God of the Dead? You literally have no way of activating his devotion at all.
2) Running Hornet Nest/Hornet Queen with Drown in Sorrow Main Deck is not a good combination. Discovered that in my own deck. It kills the defense you're trying to create with the insects.
I've changed mine a bit too. from what i can see at the moment, there are going to be a lot of aggro decks. so i'm now going more the control way, main boarding two drown in sorrow in addition to abrupt decay,bile blight, golgari charm, hero's downfall and thoughtseize. I have added two scuttling doom engine...they are just so good! you can even destroy them yourself to deal the last 6 damage to kill the opponent! here is my updated list:
i have lowered the number of darksteel citadels, but usually thanks to urborg i don't have many problems with the mana.
unravel the aether is there to defend ourselves from an opposing doom engine since we can't destroy it.
the other new addition is hornet queen, she's so good at stalling the game...
Do you like Vraska over either of the available Lilianas? With Urborg, I would think Liliana of the Dark Realms would be pretty good right now.
answering questions:
Erebos: i side him in against WU control so they can't get life from sphinx's revelation and I can draw extra cards
Drown in sorrow: what you say it's true i should probably put it in the side and either put read the bones in the main or some other removal, ideas?
Vraska: I have her and I want to play her for these last few months. i like that she can take care of creatures/walkers/enchantments. I've been thinking of Liliana Vess in her place, not sure tho
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
I was also thinking about running a Chain Veil as well. With multiple planeswalkers on the board, being able to activate 2 abilities per planeswalker per turn seems pretty good.
Yeah it can be good, i wouldn't run more than 1 tho
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Have you had any chances to run this against UWx control decks? With so many cards designed to kill creatures, I'm wondering how it does pre and post board against decks that are very light on creatures that carry removal themselves.
Have you had any chances to run this against UWx control decks? With so many cards designed to kill creatures, I'm wondering how it does pre and post board against decks that are very light on creatures that carry removal themselves.
Don't know if this question was directed towards me or Doc, But I'd like to give you my take on it if I may. I went 2-2 at my last FNM and yes, I lost to UWx 1-2. The reason why, as I see it, is that we have to have a means of filtering out UWx's ability to counter what we play as well as board wipe. Easier said than done. My opponent kept nuking the board every time I managed to get a Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix onto the field at the same time via Planar Cleansing and Supreme Verdict. The one game I did win, I won because I boarded in my Duresses and (along with my Thoughtseizes) managed to hate out his early game counters like Syncopate and Dissolve. I managed to resolve my Liliana on turn 5 or 6 and kept +1ing her first ability. I also threw in my Golgari Charms and Unravel the Aethers to try and stop his Banishing Lights that he kept using on my Planeswalkers. I can't honestly think of what changes should be made to the deck to combat this.
I was also thinking about running a Chain Veil as well. With multiple planeswalkers on the board, being able to activate 2 abilities per planeswalker per turn seems pretty good.
It's a Trap!!! LOL Seriously though Chain Veil is... Not so great... Or if it is, it's for a very specialized type of deck. I'm talking a "Superfriends" Planeswalker Deck that runs like, 16 planeswalkers (or some ridiculous amount). In my current build, the card is a dead draw. It's just too "win more." The very first build I made for this deck employed Chain Veil. Essentially, you're paying 8 mana just to use a Planeswalker's ability a second time. I'd prefer to use that mana on drawing answers instead, or playing another creature like Caryatid or Courser that improves my board state by giving me blockers, more mana, life, etc. If you're gonna run Chain Veil, make sure you run one and ONLY one. You don't want to repeatedly draw into one Veil after another with no Planeswalkers to use it on.
Have you had any chances to run this against UWx control decks? With so many cards designed to kill creatures, I'm wondering how it does pre and post board against decks that are very light on creatures that carry removal themselves.
i've played against a few and it doesn't do bad. Vraska, abrupt decay and golgari cahrmtake care of banishin light and detention sphere. charm is also very useful against verdict and elspeth's tokens (as well as bile blight and drown in sorrow). Vraska, Garruk and hero's downfall are taking care of their planeswalkers.
The trick here is to use thoughtseize at the right time to get rid of counters and sphinx's revelation, and to NEVER animate more than one land at a time with Nissa. they want to use a verdict to destroy one? no problem, you'll have a new one up and fighting next turn. As for Scuttling doom engine, you want to destroy it? Be my guest!
Game 2 is even better, you side in duress for some extra discard (taking out drown in sorrow and 1 bile blight) and take out hornet nest and hornet queen for mistcutter hydra
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
+1 Forest, -1 Swamp: I actually could go down one more swamp and add yet another forest but our early game is VERY reliant on having double black mana (even though our curve tells me it's possible).
+1 Read the Bones, -1 Staff of the Death Magus: Staff is just dead weight in the deck, especially against super aggressive aggro decks. If we don't have answers in our hand, aggro rolls right over us. Swiftly...
Haven't tried the new build out just yet. My LGS holds FNM on a day other than Friday's but holds Standard tournaments at least three days out of the week.
Have you had any chances to run this against UWx control decks? With so many cards designed to kill creatures, I'm wondering how it does pre and post board against decks that are very light on creatures that carry removal themselves.
I believe the new BGx walkers deck hate out on the UWx control decks, as a UWx player I find it difficult to play against. The high threat density (so many walkers) combined with the fact that the B/G walkers are anti-control and flat out kill other walkers or d-spheres (Garruk, Vraska,) man lands (Nissa,) discard (Lilliana,) makes it hard for a less proactive control deck to win. I think this sort of deck is inconsistent but is very forgiving. If they draw walker after walker, it's so hard for control to combat, but it comes at a cost of less consistency in card draw to get you there, but against control decks, the game goes quite some time so they have a good chance to draw all that they need unless UWx control decks start becoming more proactive. Sure they might counter that first Nissa, but there's still 6+ more walkers that offer insane value after one activation. Post board gets even better with hand disruption. I would wager to say that the walker decks have quite a favorable match-up against other control decks but the way most of them are built that I have played against, really sacrifice their aggro match ups and consistency just to be able to roll control.
I don't get why you're running two whips , seeing as how the only actual creatures you have are Carytids and Coursers.
Also I'd main 2 Vraska and side the Liliana. She's pretty dead against the fast Aggro decks, and if you do find time to get her going in those match ups you're probably winning anyways. I'd suggest
-2 Whip
-2 Liliana
+1 Vraska
+1 Drown in Sorrow
+2 Underworld Connections
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4 Forest
7 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Lifebane Zombie
4 Sign in Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Devour Flesh
1 Doom Blade
4 Hero's downfall
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price
Planeswalkers
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Liliana Vess
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Unravel the Aether
4 Duress
1 Doom Blade
1 Ultimate Price
2 Bile Blight
1 Silence the Believers
1 Lifebane Zombie
1 Dark Betrayal
2 Golgari Charm
Deck is still a work in progress.
I still can't decide on whether I should be running Underworld Connections over Sign in Blood. Connections definitely provides longer term, incremental card advantage, while Blood gives more explosive answers by drawing into removal spells quicker. Post-Rotation, I'll definitely be running Blood, unless Khans of Takir provides something better. Plus Blood helps the deck curve out quicker. I'm VERY unsure about running Nissa's Expedition in this deck. Since there isn't a 2 or 3 drop land fetch card currently in the format (ala Farseek, Cultivate, Rampant Growth, etc) Expedition will have to do. With Nissa, Worldwaker coming down on turn 5, it's not inconceivable to use her +1 Forest untap ability, play Nissa's Expedition on the same turn, and cast Garruk, Apex Predator turn 6. Or I may run another Liliana of the Dark Realms in Expedition's place.Edited the deck to implement some of the changes other players in the post have recommended. The process of the edits can be found further in the thread. I'll keep updating the this first post to reflect those changes. Thanks for the critiques guys! Please keep them coming!
having said that, the deck has another issue that needs to be addressed: you have no blockers. until you put down nissa or garruk, you have nothing but removal to defend yourself with. now that is ok if your opponent is playing midrange, but rdw or WW will get so many creatures on the field that single target removal is not going to get you far. I'd play a full set of Sylvan caryatid (which also helps you to put your PW down quicker) and a set of Hornet nest.
I play BG at the monet and I'm planning to keep playing it in the next few months, and one card that I'd find really difficult to take out of the deck is Lotleth Troll, that guy can block forever. i won a standard tournament last night mainly because of him
seriously, no blockers no party
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Also, no love for Vraska?
Vraska... I considered running her as well, but she just wouldn't fit. Nissa, Worldwaker already holds her slot, and Liliana of the Dark Realms comes down a turn early and acts as both mana ramp and psuedo removal, which is what this deck does best and is all about.
4 Hornet Nest
2 Genesis Hydra
2 Hydra broodmaster
2 Soul of New Phyrexia
4 verdant heaven
3 abrupt decay
3 golgari charm
3 hero's downfall
3 thoughtseize
4 Nissa, world waker
4 Darksteel citadel
4 overgrown tomb
4 temple of malady
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmot
10 forest
SIDE
3 mistcutter hydra
1 abrupt deacay
1 golgari charm
1 hero's downfall
3 bile blight
3 duress
2 drown in sorrow
test so far is pretty good. it would bee to easy to say that nissa and garruk are awesome (cos they obviously are), the real winner form me so far has been Hornet nest. I'm playing monoG devotion and my opponent has a a polukranos and a 6/6 genesis hydra...and they do absolutely nothing. if he attacks, i'm going to get 11 insects that are going to kill his hydras when they attack again. i have him completely stalled, i get time to put down my lands, play my plaswalkers, get a couple of darksteel citadel to become 4/4 tramplers, put down garruk, kill his nissa (seriously, kill target plans walker as a +1 is INSANE) and so on.
other interesting things: Nissa+verdant heaven+hydra brood master= TONS OF FUN
i'm going to cry the day that golgari charm rotates out...doom blade for enchantment creatures, 2 mana instant wrath of god against rdw, ww and slivers, big middle finger to supreme verdict
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Sorry, I may just not be familiar enough with standard, but what is the point of Darksteel Citadel? I didn't think there was any prominent land destruction.EDIT: Woops, I kinda completely missed that interaction. Nevermind!
because 4/4 trample indestructible haste are nice ( Nissa, worldwaker)
After playing against it, I really want to find a spot for scuttling doom engine. at the moment i'm finding soul of phyrexia's instant "everything is indestructible" pretty useful, and popping hydras out of broodmaster is way too much fun, so the alternative would be genesis hydra. while just win more when casted with x=6or7 (because if i can cast it at that much i'm probably ahead and stabilised already), it's actually pretty useful early in the game, if you get stuck, to find that extra caryatid/nest/heaven that kickstarts the deck.
egine on the other hand is very nice and useful....thoughts?
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Doc, I'm really liking your list. The only suggestion/modification I'd make to the deck would be to run 4 Courser of Kruphixes instead of 4 Verdant Havens. Courser provides better card advantage, a body to block with if you need it to, and great life gain in the long run.
EDIT: Never mind, I see the combo you mentioned earlier with Nissa, Broodmaster, and Haven. Very nice!
-4 Darksteel Citadel, +4 Golgari Guildgate: The reason for this became fairly obvious the more I played around with the deck. For starters, the deck requires a lot of mana fixing and I was running into not having double black and double green mana the turns I needed them on. As much as I love the idea having 4/4 indestructible tramplers (ala Nissa, Worldwaker's first +1 ability+Darksteel Citadel), being able to cast my spells consistently is more important.
-2 Erebos, God of the Dead, +2 Whip of Erebos : Realized that I'm no longer running Underworld Connections and will therefore never reach the devotion needed to make Erebos a creature. Also definitely need the life gain to counteract life lost from Sign in Blood, Llanowar Wastes, and Thoughtseize. Also moved Whips to the maindeck.
-2 Liliana of the Dark Realms, -2 Staff of the Death Magus, +2 Hornet Nest, +1 Sylvan Caryatid: Having extra blockers that can potentially grow exponentially into a wall of flying, deathtouching insects definitely helps. So does having mana dorks that can't be targeted in a deck that requires a lot of mana. Staffs didn't really do much for the deck, and I found I was gaining much more life consistently with Whip of Erebos plus creatures doing damage (insects and elemental land creatures created by Nissa, Worldwaker). Keeping one Staff in the sideboard. Liliana was originally in the deck as an extra kill spell and psuedo mana acceleration but she's far too slow and doesn't really provide much defense.
+1 Dark Betrayal: Had a spot for it and it works as cheap removal when playing the mirror match or other decks that utilize black creatures.
Silence the Believers vs Pithing Needle: This is a hard decision to make and will probably be more of a meta call than anything else. There's not really that much reanimate in the format right now, so I feel like Pithing Needle is probably the safer bet. However, with creatures like Phytotitan entering the fray, and Khans of Takir just around the corner...
4 hornet nest
2 scuttling doom engine
1 hornet queen
4 abrupt decay
4 golgari charm
3 bile blight
3 hero's downfall
2 drown in sorrow
3 thoughtseize
3 nissa, world waker
1 Vraska the unseen
2 darksteel citadel
2 swamp
10 forest
4 overgrown tomb
4 temple of malady
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 erebos, god of the dead
3 mistcutter hydra
1 hero's downfall
3 unravel the Aether
3 duress
2 read the bones
i have lowered the number of darksteel citadels, but usually thanks to urborg i don't have many problems with the mana.
unravel the aether is there to defend ourselves from an opposing doom engine since we can't destroy it.
the other new addition is hornet queen, she's so good at stalling the game...
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
i want to have as many forests as i can. at the moment i'm running 14, i wouldn't go below that. once overgrown tomb rotates out i won't have any choice, but the whole deck is going to change drastically at that point (losing decay and charm). between pain and temples i prefer temples
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Main Deck
-4 Nissa, Worldwaker, +1 Vraska the Unseen, +2 Liliana Vess: Honestly, I should have seen this one a mile away. But I wanted so badly for Garruk, Apex Predator and Nissa to play together. But they just don't work in the control shell I'm going for. Liliana tutors for answers (removal, mana ramp via Courser of Kruphix, Sylvan Caryatid, and Garruk), and also makes opponents discard cards. In creature heavy decks, this works to our advantage, especially if we manage to get Liliana's ultimate off along with Whip of Erebos. Vraska acts as a wall against creatures and removal of other pesky permanents (like planeswalkers, enchantments, and artifacts). Plus I'm not running enough Forests to make Nissa's second +1 a viable option for ramping into Garruk. Her first +1 ability was also putting my mana base in peril, because my opponents kept killing them off as creatures, and I have no way of protecting them.
-4 Hornet Nest, +4 Courser of Kruphix: Courser does so many more things for the deck primarily by supplying even more life gain in a deck that truly needs it, mana ramp, and a decent body that can block and is just out of range of most low mana burn spells. Hornet Nest has been somewhat of a disappointment. Yes, it acts as a pseudo wall, but it doesn't do jack against fliers, unblockable creatures, etc. And they die easily to removal. Also, you can't run them along with Drown in Sorrow against aggro decks because they get destroyed as well and you don't get any insect tokens out of it.
+1 Rogue's Passage: A control deck like this really should be running 25 Lands. I was running 24 to begin with. And obviously Passage was created to help enable Vraska's ultimate to win you the game.
3 Forest
8 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
Spells
4 Sign in Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Devour Flesh
1 Doom Blade
4 Hero's downfall
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price
2 Whip of Erebos
Planeswalkers
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Liliana Vess
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Unravel the Aether
4 Duress
1 Doom Blade
1 Ultimate Price
2 Bile Blight
1 Silence the Believers
1 Staff of the Death Magus
1 Dark Betrayal
2 Golgari Charm
EDIT: Whoops! I forgot to change my sideboard. -2 Sundering Growth, +2 Unravel the Aether. Scuttling Doom Engine will be a thing and we need a way to get rid of it without it hurting us.
List is looking good. I do have a few questions/suggestions:
1) Why are you running Erebos, God of the Dead? You literally have no way of activating his devotion at all.
2) Running Hornet Nest/Hornet Queen with Drown in Sorrow Main Deck is not a good combination. Discovered that in my own deck. It kills the defense you're trying to create with the insects.
Do you like Vraska over either of the available Lilianas? With Urborg, I would think Liliana of the Dark Realms would be pretty good right now.
Erebos: i side him in against WU control so they can't get life from sphinx's revelation and I can draw extra cards
Drown in sorrow: what you say it's true i should probably put it in the side and either put read the bones in the main or some other removal, ideas?
Vraska: I have her and I want to play her for these last few months. i like that she can take care of creatures/walkers/enchantments. I've been thinking of Liliana Vess in her place, not sure tho
also I made a change: -2 Hornet Nest, +2 Deathrite shaman
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Don't know if this question was directed towards me or Doc, But I'd like to give you my take on it if I may. I went 2-2 at my last FNM and yes, I lost to UWx 1-2. The reason why, as I see it, is that we have to have a means of filtering out UWx's ability to counter what we play as well as board wipe. Easier said than done. My opponent kept nuking the board every time I managed to get a Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix onto the field at the same time via Planar Cleansing and Supreme Verdict. The one game I did win, I won because I boarded in my Duresses and (along with my Thoughtseizes) managed to hate out his early game counters like Syncopate and Dissolve. I managed to resolve my Liliana on turn 5 or 6 and kept +1ing her first ability. I also threw in my Golgari Charms and Unravel the Aethers to try and stop his Banishing Lights that he kept using on my Planeswalkers. I can't honestly think of what changes should be made to the deck to combat this.
It's a Trap!!! LOL Seriously though Chain Veil is... Not so great... Or if it is, it's for a very specialized type of deck. I'm talking a "Superfriends" Planeswalker Deck that runs like, 16 planeswalkers (or some ridiculous amount). In my current build, the card is a dead draw. It's just too "win more." The very first build I made for this deck employed Chain Veil. Essentially, you're paying 8 mana just to use a Planeswalker's ability a second time. I'd prefer to use that mana on drawing answers instead, or playing another creature like Caryatid or Courser that improves my board state by giving me blockers, more mana, life, etc. If you're gonna run Chain Veil, make sure you run one and ONLY one. You don't want to repeatedly draw into one Veil after another with no Planeswalkers to use it on.
i've played against a few and it doesn't do bad. Vraska, abrupt decay and golgari cahrmtake care of banishin light and detention sphere. charm is also very useful against verdict and elspeth's tokens (as well as bile blight and drown in sorrow). Vraska, Garruk and hero's downfall are taking care of their planeswalkers.
The trick here is to use thoughtseize at the right time to get rid of counters and sphinx's revelation, and to NEVER animate more than one land at a time with Nissa. they want to use a verdict to destroy one? no problem, you'll have a new one up and fighting next turn. As for Scuttling doom engine, you want to destroy it? Be my guest!
Game 2 is even better, you side in duress for some extra discard (taking out drown in sorrow and 1 bile blight) and take out hornet nest and hornet queen for mistcutter hydra
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
+1 Forest, -1 Swamp: I actually could go down one more swamp and add yet another forest but our early game is VERY reliant on having double black mana (even though our curve tells me it's possible).
+1 Read the Bones, -1 Staff of the Death Magus: Staff is just dead weight in the deck, especially against super aggressive aggro decks. If we don't have answers in our hand, aggro rolls right over us. Swiftly...
Haven't tried the new build out just yet. My LGS holds FNM on a day other than Friday's but holds Standard tournaments at least three days out of the week.
I believe the new BGx walkers deck hate out on the UWx control decks, as a UWx player I find it difficult to play against. The high threat density (so many walkers) combined with the fact that the B/G walkers are anti-control and flat out kill other walkers or d-spheres (Garruk, Vraska,) man lands (Nissa,) discard (Lilliana,) makes it hard for a less proactive control deck to win. I think this sort of deck is inconsistent but is very forgiving. If they draw walker after walker, it's so hard for control to combat, but it comes at a cost of less consistency in card draw to get you there, but against control decks, the game goes quite some time so they have a good chance to draw all that they need unless UWx control decks start becoming more proactive. Sure they might counter that first Nissa, but there's still 6+ more walkers that offer insane value after one activation. Post board gets even better with hand disruption. I would wager to say that the walker decks have quite a favorable match-up against other control decks but the way most of them are built that I have played against, really sacrifice their aggro match ups and consistency just to be able to roll control.
Also I'd main 2 Vraska and side the Liliana. She's pretty dead against the fast Aggro decks, and if you do find time to get her going in those match ups you're probably winning anyways. I'd suggest
-2 Whip
-2 Liliana
+1 Vraska
+1 Drown in Sorrow
+2 Underworld Connections