119.8. If a source would deal 0 damage, it does not deal damage at all. That means abilities that trigger on damage being dealt won’t trigger. It also means that replacement effects that would increase the damage dealt by that source, or would have that source deal that damage to a different object or player, have no event to replace, so they have no effect.
So, No damage = No draw.
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119.8. If a source would deal 0 damage, it does not deal damage at all. That means abilities that trigger on damage being dealt won’t trigger. It also means that replacement effects that would increase the damage dealt by that source, or would have that source deal that damage to a different object or player, have no event to replace, so they have no effect.
So, No damage = No draw.
You are correct, sir. Having a power of 0 or less will not deal damage in combat. Military intelligence would do better in this situation, however Bident is an artifact.
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Not playing much these days... hope all is well in the MtG community
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
Actually, I'm pretty sure ThirdDegree suggested Military Intelligence for exactly that reason, so I think we're all in agreement on the rules. I still like Bident better because it's a much better CA engine, and the activated ability can be useful.
Main deck I run 10 Scry sources plus filtering from Dakra to dig for the combo. I have Hoarding Dragon to tutor for pieces for Shrapnel Blast and Ensoul or I can search up Scuttles or mana (Darksteel Citadel) to cast Scuttles. He also gives me something else worth using Generator Servant for on turn 3 in the abscence of other combo pieces. A 4/4 Flying Haste on T3 is good even if he isn't great most other times. He is still a tutor.
I really kind of want to focus more on the combo plan game 1 and maybe do a "transformational" thing post board by bringing in more control stuff against aggro (like Lightning Strikes and Anger of the Gods) and more mid-range stuff against control (I'm open to suggestions).
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The biggest issue I am having thinking about Hoarding Dragon is that any bounce or exile effects messes it up. And with the amount of decks running either it worries me to invest one of my cards in that.
Yea, killrazed, I meant MI to swing with the thopters, sorry if that was confusing. The advantages of MI are that it's a bit quicker, plus i can draw off of thopters, but the advantage of bident is it can be convoked, ensouled, or shrapnel-ed plus you get to draw more cards. I'm sure i'll go back and forth before settling on one or the other. the bident seems like a clear winner, but I also find that when I have it out and am drawing, I am in a pretty good spot, whereas MI seems to be able to pull me out in a pinch a bit better.
@alphagprime: I had a load of scrylands before to help make the deck run more consistently, but i found they slowed me down a bit too much. try running both ways to see which one you like better, but i went with cutting back on the scrylands and putting magma jet in their place.
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The biggest issue I am having thinking about Hoarding Dragon is that any bounce or exile effects messes it up. And with the amount of decks running either it worries me to invest one of my cards in that.
This is a good point. If we had some kind of sac outlet it would work better like a 1 of Barrage of Expendables to eat up Ornithopters, Scuttles, or Hoarding Dragon. Problem is we lose that after rotation and even then a 1-of isn't the most reliable. I would probably run him still and just side him out against control decks as it seems bounce will become more prevalent given the number of bounce spells printed in M15. He may end up being to easy to disrupt in a bounce heavy meta though.
Yea, killrazed, I meant MI to swing with the thopters, sorry if that was confusing. The advantages of MI are that it's a bit quicker, plus i can draw off of thopters, but the advantage of bident is it can be convoked, ensouled, or shrapnel-ed plus you get to draw more cards. I'm sure i'll go back and forth before settling on one or the other. the bident seems like a clear winner, but I also find that when I have it out and am drawing, I am in a pretty good spot, whereas MI seems to be able to pull me out in a pinch a bit better.
@alphagprime: I had a load of scrylands before to help make the deck run more consistently, but i found they slowed me down a bit too much. try running both ways to see which one you like better, but i went with cutting back on the scrylands and putting magma jet in their place.
How many Scrylands did you originally run? I'm only running the 4 and I already have Magma Jet in the list. I also have Dakra Mystic and (for now) Hoarding Dragon to filter and search so I may not need all the Scry I have. I could replace the lands or I could keep them in order to supplement losing Dakra Mystic, Omenspeaker, or Hoarding Dragon.
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Oh, sorry, I misread your quote. Thought you said you run 10 scrylands, not sources. I redact my statement
I'm not really understanding the inclusion of Hoarding Dragon. Sure, he tutors an artifact, but do you have a reliable way to kill him off to get the value, or are you relying on your opponent killing him. If so, they can easily exile him in a number of ways, and with an effect like banishing light/d sphere, he not only gets exiled, but that also permanently exiles that artifact. Seems like a liability.
A big reason for the inclusion of Hoarding Dragon its synergy with Generator Servant. The artifact tutoring is just a bonus that pushes it over the top.
That's what I've been thinking about too, every time I find a strategy for keeping I think works, it ends up boning me. My very rough criteria have been:
-- If it has Ensoul Artifact, any lands, and any artifact besides scuttling, almost always keep.
-- Ornithopter + Ensoul/Madcap Skills is usually worth keeping, provided lands are okay, and especially worth if I have both.
-- Most of the rest of the time I try to mulligan for one of those, unless I have a plan with that hand to counteract my opponent's game plan (e.g. if I'm playing an aggro deck and have 2x Lightning Strike, Shrapnel Blast, Ral Zarek, Ornithopter, and 2 lands, I would probably keep it since I can hold up with the zip-zaps.)
My favorite hand for this deck has to be Cloudfin Raptor, Ornithopter, and Madcap skills or Ensoul artifact. Against decks I know have mana dorks or activation abilites seeing Phyrexian Revoker opening hand is always nice. Turn 1 Cloudfin, Ornithopter, Turn 2 Chief Engineer into a Revoker is a nice board state to be at turn 2, especially if turn 3 leads into madcap or ensoul.
I like the way I built it because It seems to rely less on Scuttling Doom Engine than other builds and can win many other ways. In theory I can win without really ever playing an artifact.
Ah yes, I forgot to mention Cloudfin Raptor + 2x anything to evolve it with is also usually a keep hand, since that's usually enough aggro to maintain board control until other things get plopped down. Especially since you can then Madcap the Cloudfin for big swings without needing Ensoul Artifact.
So looking at my curve, I have 4-0, 4-1, 29-2, 2-4, 3-6 drops. Both the 4 and 6 drops are artifacts and have other methods to help them get out. 18 land seems to be working for me. Have I just been really luckly on the draw or you guys think that is an okay curve to run only 18? Deck list is same as it was before.
18 is pretty absurdly tight -- there's a 31% chance that on a given starting hand, you'll have 1 or 0 lands to work with. By turn 3, there's a 17% chance you've still only gotten 1 or 0 lands to work with, total. Mulliganing helps this, but (though your list may be different) I generally find I need to mulligan for synergy in my starting hand, which makes having to mulligan for lands also dangerous.
Edit: That said, looking at your list, since you have the Magma Jets and more burn than I do, you might be able to get away with more aggressive mulliganing, since the burn will help hold the board down while you wait for combo, and scry helps you dig for more combo pieces.
Running 3 colors, I don't think I'll dip below 22 (maybe 21, but I'll want to try it out a bit). If you are testing with a proxy cardboard deck, that should give you the best idea. I've been testing on cockatrice, but the random function there seems pretty terrible, so I'm waiting to sleeve up a deck to see how it shuffles in real life. I would think no less than 20 lands, though. If you have your engineer rolling, you are in good shape, but that is dangerous against a control deck, as they can cast a sweeper and then you are left with very little to do.
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Yeah I know it is risky but I have playtested it a while and solitared it about 40 times today and I have been mana screwed only about 3 times but have been flooded about 10.
I would run 19-20 lands if you're playing two colors, and 20-22 if you're playing three. We tend to mulligan fairly well, and we need to keep our land count low to improve our late game draws.
On my first pass at the deck, I included Keranos for just that reason (I still have him in the SB for the control matchup). I think if you don't win or get in a damn good position by turn 5 you might be in some trouble. Being able to drop him, and draw through your lands is a pretty good incentive. Although the way my deck is now, not sure if I even have room to cut anything for him.
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Keranos could be good SB tech against non white decks (decks that don't run exile effects) or games that go late. Besides we can always turn 3 him with servant.
Not really condsidering it, but I will throw it out there. With Servant we have decent acceleration, what about a WR version?
I haven't had the opportunity to cast him yet, but in theory he should work, plus I think he's just an awesome card in general. I think blue is fairly essential to the list, mostly for ensoul. Having a turn 2 5/5 is just fantastic, but making it in to a RW artifact burn deck could actually be pretty cool.
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Apart from Ensoul Artifact, there's not much we miss out on -- we lose Chief Engineer, who I already don't see do work too terribly much -- most of the time he just acts like a blue mana dork for me, since Generator Servant already has built in acceleration and whatever other creature I get out is usually busy being a 5/5, 3/2 unblockable flier, or 5/1 unblockable ground dude; so I want to put pressure with them instead. However, we lose access to a lot of blue's sideboard options like Annul, Izzet Charm, etc., and Ensoul really is very hard to give up in this deck. Also, I'm running Ral Zarek in my list.
Who is, by the way, actually pretty strong when you can accelerate him out with Generator Servant, I've noticed -- he can also mana accelerate, even on the turn he comes down, so you can usually drop him alongside a Phyrexian Revoker or another Generator Servant. He taps out opposing blockers or can kill enemy mana for counters to your Ensoul Artifact/Madcap Skills, which is really helpful. If need be, he protects himself with his -2, or even pushes your opponent down to 0 sometimes; lastly, you can swing hard and fast enough that ulting almost always immediately wins you the game. I am very sad that he will be rotating out soon.
I don't think taking out blue is worth it. The white cards we'd have access to aren't actually very good without blue in the deck. Besides, Ensoul Artifact is amazing.
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I'm pretty sure your combo with Ornithopter and Bident of Thassa doesn't work:
So, No damage = No draw.
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Also I have been having a fun and decent time with my list. Still having no issues with mana.
You are correct, sir. Having a power of 0 or less will not deal damage in combat. Military intelligence would do better in this situation, however Bident is an artifact.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Steamvents/Shivan Reef
6 Island
6 Mountain
4 Ornithopter
4 Dakra Mystic
4 Chief Engineer
4 Generator Servant
4 Scuttling Doom Engine
4 Magma Jet
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Ensoul Artifact
4 Springleaf Drum
After reading this forum and things here is the working list I'm moving to:
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Steamvents/Shivan Reef
5 Island
5 Mountain
4 Ornithopter
4 Dakra Mystic
2 Omenspeaker
4 Chief Engineer
4 Generator Servant
2 Hoarding Dragon
4 Scuttling Doom Engine
4 Magma Jet
3 Shrapnel Blast
4 Ensoul Artifact
3 Springleaf Drum
Main deck I run 10 Scry sources plus filtering from Dakra to dig for the combo. I have Hoarding Dragon to tutor for pieces for Shrapnel Blast and Ensoul or I can search up Scuttles or mana (Darksteel Citadel) to cast Scuttles. He also gives me something else worth using Generator Servant for on turn 3 in the abscence of other combo pieces. A 4/4 Flying Haste on T3 is good even if he isn't great most other times. He is still a tutor.
I really kind of want to focus more on the combo plan game 1 and maybe do a "transformational" thing post board by bringing in more control stuff against aggro (like Lightning Strikes and Anger of the Gods) and more mid-range stuff against control (I'm open to suggestions).
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@alphagprime: I had a load of scrylands before to help make the deck run more consistently, but i found they slowed me down a bit too much. try running both ways to see which one you like better, but i went with cutting back on the scrylands and putting magma jet in their place.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
This is a good point. If we had some kind of sac outlet it would work better like a 1 of Barrage of Expendables to eat up Ornithopters, Scuttles, or Hoarding Dragon. Problem is we lose that after rotation and even then a 1-of isn't the most reliable. I would probably run him still and just side him out against control decks as it seems bounce will become more prevalent given the number of bounce spells printed in M15. He may end up being to easy to disrupt in a bounce heavy meta though.
How many Scrylands did you originally run? I'm only running the 4 and I already have Magma Jet in the list. I also have Dakra Mystic and (for now) Hoarding Dragon to filter and search so I may not need all the Scry I have. I could replace the lands or I could keep them in order to supplement losing Dakra Mystic, Omenspeaker, or Hoarding Dragon.
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I'm not really understanding the inclusion of Hoarding Dragon. Sure, he tutors an artifact, but do you have a reliable way to kill him off to get the value, or are you relying on your opponent killing him. If so, they can easily exile him in a number of ways, and with an effect like banishing light/d sphere, he not only gets exiled, but that also permanently exiles that artifact. Seems like a liability.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
-- If it has Ensoul Artifact, any lands, and any artifact besides scuttling, almost always keep.
-- Ornithopter + Ensoul/Madcap Skills is usually worth keeping, provided lands are okay, and especially worth if I have both.
-- Generator Servant and Ral Zarek/Scuttling Doom Engine is usually worth keeping unless we know we're up against control.
-- Most of the rest of the time I try to mulligan for one of those, unless I have a plan with that hand to counteract my opponent's game plan (e.g. if I'm playing an aggro deck and have 2x Lightning Strike, Shrapnel Blast, Ral Zarek, Ornithopter, and 2 lands, I would probably keep it since I can hold up with the zip-zaps.)
I like the way I built it because It seems to rely less on Scuttling Doom Engine than other builds and can win many other ways. In theory I can win without really ever playing an artifact.
18 is pretty absurdly tight -- there's a 31% chance that on a given starting hand, you'll have 1 or 0 lands to work with. By turn 3, there's a 17% chance you've still only gotten 1 or 0 lands to work with, total. Mulliganing helps this, but (though your list may be different) I generally find I need to mulligan for synergy in my starting hand, which makes having to mulligan for lands also dangerous.
Edit: That said, looking at your list, since you have the Magma Jets and more burn than I do, you might be able to get away with more aggressive mulliganing, since the burn will help hold the board down while you wait for combo, and scry helps you dig for more combo pieces.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Not really condsidering it, but I will throw it out there. With Servant we have decent acceleration, what about a WR version?
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Who is, by the way, actually pretty strong when you can accelerate him out with Generator Servant, I've noticed -- he can also mana accelerate, even on the turn he comes down, so you can usually drop him alongside a Phyrexian Revoker or another Generator Servant. He taps out opposing blockers or can kill enemy mana for counters to your Ensoul Artifact/Madcap Skills, which is really helpful. If need be, he protects himself with his -2, or even pushes your opponent down to 0 sometimes; lastly, you can swing hard and fast enough that ulting almost always immediately wins you the game. I am very sad that he will be rotating out soon.