I agree that pharika is pretty good vs almost any creature deck, so long as you can get going. Until you can start trading though... it hurts pretty bad. You're right about Primeval Bounty though. I've only been playing 1 in my list, and it's sometimes hard to make it to where I can cast it, but when I can it takes over a game.
I'm also with you on the Brain Maggot thing. It's lackluster, I have games where it shuts down cards for most of the game, but they just play their mana and draw into another threat. Possibly better suited like you said to switch to an anthem, or possibly more removal. I feel like Brain Maggot is a good card, but maybe for more of a tempo deck.
Banishing Light looks good, Oath could be good as well.
We could go another way and add our enchantment engine to something close to the current junk midrange shell, picking up archangel of thune, eidolon of countless battles, Nyx-fleece Ram, and possibly underworld coinsmith. Coinsmith and Ram give us angel counters and regular life gain, and I feel like most people will be reluctant to waste resources on them. Would have access to deicide and Banishing Light as well. Just some thoughts
I'm not averse to moving into Junk if that's what the deck requires. I'm not sure I'd run Collective Blessing, though. It *does* upgrade all our creatures, but I feel like Primeval Bounty is just going to be better, and we don't want the 6-drop slot to be too clogged. Additionally, on that subject, Primeval Bounty is *crazy*, and I really reccomend the card as a 1-of. I got in a lot of testing yesterday against Junk Midrange and GB Dredge, and any game I untapped with Primeval Bounty, I won. The lifegain is very relevant when you're draining yourself with Herald of Torment and Underworld Connections, and the beasts and counters that start flooding in make it very, very difficult for the opponent to prevent us from stabilizing and killing them.
I don't think Athreos, God of Passage is at all what this deck requires. It does nothing turn 3, and we're not putting enough pressure on the opponent to make the life drain terribly relevant. Even with white in the deck, it'll be a splash, so he'll be harder to give devotion.
I don't think Oath of the Ancient Wood really solves any of the issues this deck has. Making our creatures slightly bigger won't save them against the hail of removal spells coming in against control, and the card really doesn't do much when it comes into play. If the deck's main issue is it's speed, Oath isn't going to aid us.
I wouldn't dream of dropping Brain Maggot. It is often a temporary thoughtseize--that also counts for devotion and gives us constellation triggers--but it's more important as a tempo play than it is as a permanent answer. Although there are a few decks where it does permanently get rid of something, stalling their threats and removal trips up their plan and allows us to get to the late game. Often, by the time Brain Maggot dies, and the opponent gets the cards back, it's too late. Against aggro decks, ruining their curve is very important, and even if next turn they spend a turn removing Brain Maggot, you've still delayed their charge, and let you get closer to answers and stabilization. Against control, stalling answers is vital, as the opponent might be counting on that Supreme Verdict to save them, and instead they'll have to jump through hoops to get it back. And you'll know the verdict is coming, so you can plan accordingly. It is a card I am never unhappy to see in an opening hand, and I only ever don't want to see it if my opponent is topdecking.
If we move into white, Mana Bloom is definitely not the way to go, as it's not consistent enough manafixing.
If I were to play white, the only cards that really draw me towards the color are Banishing Light, of course, and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. Banishing Light obviously makes our removal suite more flexible, but Ajani, I think, offers the deck some very tempting advantages.
Ajani is another card advantage engine, finding us more creatures--and removal spells, should we play this theme strongly and run cards like Pacifism. Both of it's effects are very relevant, as it can turn our previously weak creatures into threats or beter blockers, permanently. He is actually the most tempting reason for us to go into white--he's good against control, and is really only unexciting against aggro, as he comes down rather late. I think he'd be better for us than Collective Blessing, being cheaper and able to play multiple roles.
I tried Ajani and he just isn't what we needed. We already have a good card draw engine. We have Courser + underwold connections engine which is already proven itself as good. We added EoB for another engine. We don't need a 4th that is more expensive than the rest. Collective Blessing has more impact right away and harder to remove. Hero's downfall is played in a lot of decks still. There have been many games when I would make 1-3 snakes opponent's EOT slam Blessing on my turn and swing. Ajani cannot do that kind of play.
Oath of the Ancient Wood triggers when it enters play so it does do something when you play it. The reason I like it is because it is flexible. You can simply give each one of your creatures a +1/+1 counter as they enter play (being an anthem) or pile them all on 1 creature making a large threat. It is also very cheap at 3 mana compared to Ajani and Collective Blessing. I know its an obscure card for sure. This is the only deck I'd ever consider playing it.
I tried Ajani and he just isn't what we needed. We already have a good card draw engine. We have Courser + underwold connections engine which is already proven itself as good. We added EoB for another engine. We don't need a 4th that is more expensive than the rest. Collective Blessing has more impact right away and harder to remove. Hero's downfall is played in a lot of decks still. There have been many games when I would make 1-3 snakes opponent's EOT slam Blessing on my turn and swing. Ajani cannot do that kind of play.
Oath of the Ancient Wood triggers when it enters play so it does do something when you play it. The reason I like it is because it is flexible. You can simply give each one of your creatures a +1/+1 counter as they enter play (being an anthem) or pile them all on 1 creature making a large threat. It is also very cheap at 3 mana compared to Ajani and Collective Blessing. I know its an obscure card for sure. This is the only deck I'd ever consider playing it.
If there was a deck Oath of the Ancient Wood was playable in, it would be this one. However, this card has to be played instead of something else, and I cannot imagine dropping any of my current 3-drops for it. It also feels very underwhelming at all points of the curve--if it comes down turn 2 off a mystic, you now have a bigger mystic, I suppose, which isn't very exciting. Certainly not as impactful as Brain Maggot taking out a possible incoming threat, or an early Courser or Underworld Connections. It will then make every creature you play slightly bigger, which is not *bad*, per se, but it's slow. And if you need to make something bigger, you need to play multiple enchantments after said target and Oath are already on the field. And then you need said target to not just get removed, which will negate all that Oath has done on the turns it's been on the field. The 3-drop slot is already rather full, and I can't imagine ever playing this over my current 3-drops. Courser and Underworld Connections perform entirely different tasks, and are too important to replace. Boon Satyr is invaluable in the control matchup as well as anywhere we expect Blood Barons. I'm not playing it over Pharika. Herald of Torment is the best possible target for the +1/+1 counters this card would offer, so taking it out for it seems pointless. Hero's Downfall is likely too important to lose for a buffing effect.
Oath is also a very, very unfortunate topdeck in the late game unless you have a stocked graveyard and a Pharika out. But if your opponents aren't flying over you anyways, Pharika's tokens don't need minor buffs. I'd rather play Collective Blessing over Oath, and I'm not sold on Collective Blessing as something we require either. Ajani provides three oath activations in one +1 effect, while inhabiting a spot on the curve that isn't overstuffed. It provides significant meaningful effect, and can also draw us cards. It works well on a board full of our creatures and on a board that doesn't have many. If this deck were to run Ajani, it wouldn't be just as another card advantage engine, but as a way to make our creatures significant without Oath forcing us to commit more and more enchantments to the field to possibly make a creature a threat. Ajani can't allow us to alpha strike out of nowhere in the situation you just described, but over the course of two turns it can give two creatures that +3/+3 boost that the next turn Collective Blessing would have given, and allow us to recover from a Supreme Verdict. It comes down a turn earlier than Blessing, and it curves right into our sweeper, which happens to be a very good time to boost something and swing at the opponent. Collective Blessing isn't helping us out too much against control, where they're keeping our fields clear anyways. It can certainly enable a sudden alpha strike that wipes out the opponent, or it can come down on a largely empty field. It encourages us to overextend, which is not something we can do comfortably against control. And if we're only boosting one or two creatures at a time, Ajani will end up having a similar effect with just one of his abilities. It's certainly not helping us against aggro, as if we've reached turn 6, we're likely going to be fine anyways, or we're on death's door and our creatures being more powerful isn't going to save us, as we're not racing aggro. Cards like Primeval Bounty and Extinguish All Hope would be similarly powerful draws at this point against them, as we don't need to close out the game strongly against them, we just have to survive until a certain point.
I'm not sold on Ajani either, but I think I like him more than Collective Blessing, and I definitely like both more than Oath of the Ancient Wood. This deck does not need another incremental source of advantage, especially one less impactful than the others we currently run.
Just played against a g/w version of this deck, karametra, EoB, banishing light, mystics and carytids to ramp, primeval, courser, so on and so forth. Honestly, his deck seemed to run smoother, and set up a bit quicker than the g/b version. Just lots of enchant synergy, and little "do nothing" cards. Not saying its hands down better, but it was definitely a rough go for me. Was also surprised how easy he turned on karametra...
The pilot was saying his main problem of course was control, which black gives us game against in the form of thoughtseize, maggot, and duress... I dunno thoughts?
Just played against a g/w version of this deck, karametra, EoB, banishing light, mystics and carytids to ramp, primeval, courser, so on and so forth. Honestly, his deck seemed to run smoother, and set up a bit quicker than the g/b version. Just lots of enchant synergy, and little "do nothing" cards. Not saying its hands down better, but it was definitely a rough go for me. Was also surprised how easy he turned on karametra...
The pilot was saying his main problem of course was control, which black gives us game against in the form of thoughtseize, maggot, and duress... I dunno thoughts?
If control wasn't an issue, I'd definitely be playing the GW version---it's stronger against aggro and sphere of safety is a good card against both aggro and midrange. However, it is much, much worse against control. The deck can't be proactive enough to race control well, and it doesn't have the disruption to protect it's cards or disrupt control. I really don't see how they can ever get there against a tuned control list--supreme verdict is very live against them, and they don't have Underworld Connections to generate card advantage should their Eidolons fail. I think for the current metagame, black is essential if you want game against control.
Is master of the feast officialy dropped as an option? Have you tested it? I think the main reason to go BG is that guy and maybe gnarled scarhide. Brain maggot, herald of torment, these 2 guys,a few boon satyr, pharika, eidolon of blossom and doomwake giant are loving this aggro style of rush. Pharika love this rush if the creature remains alive for devotion, and she love the rush if the creature dies. Mana bloom, thoughtseize, extuiguish all hope and I think we have a fast deck that regenerate itself in the long run. I also consider Nylea, god of the hunt in this deck to go with the master of feast. What your thought and experience with master of feast and gnarled scarhide? I'll test and put on a decklist soon.
I'm reading through the thread and a few points are starting to emerge which quite honestly is perplexing me.
So lets start with the furore regarding the white splash. To me it seems that the proponents are arguing for the splash primarily for Banishing Light and a few other obscure options such as Ajani or limited anthem effects so lets start with that. What possible problem does Banishing Light solve that can not better be solved by options already available to you in these colors. Planeswalkers? Creatures? Enchantments? Gods? Do we not have access to Hero's Downfall, are we not in black giving us the best spot removal in the format, are Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm not cards, which deck besides Mono Blue even plays multiple Gods that we would need to warp our mana base to such a degree? Thoughtseize, Duress, Silence the Believers, Brain Maggot, Unravel the Æther...am I missing something here?
I look at decklists and people complaining of struggles against Desecration Demons, resolved Walkers, Monsters, fast aggro etc. Of course you are, you're not playing enough unconditional removal and instead are pussyfooting around with fancy splits and tweaks and then complain when you end up dying to a 6/6 for 4 or when you get out classed by a slow Midrange deck playing dumb beaters. Why are you not adjusting your removal to be more broad instead of trying to be slightly favored across the board. You are not focused and are being punished for it.
Soft to Aggro? You could be playing 4 Walls but instead opt to play a sketchy 1 mana repeatable cantrip combo then wonder why you can't stabilize in time for your 6 mana unreliable sweepers to be effective. You are not focused. So instead, we are throwing our toys out of the cot and dipping into a color that makes you even slower and worse off against aggro, to have access to tools that are redundant when considering the tools we already had in the first place. We don't need different removal, you simply need to better utilize the removal slots readily available to you. It's not a matter of quality, you're simply getting the quantity management wrong. You are unfocused.
You are main decking unreliable G1 sweeper effects, running too little catch all removal and now we're discussing adding a third color at a point in the format when we should be focusing on streamlining and mitigating self inflicted damage because of bad manabases. You are unfocused, and being unfocused you cannot expect any sort of consistency or long term development in your testing results. Could we add white? Well sure, but at that stage you might as well be on Hoogland Junk, as that is a more streamlined and more focused midrange deck if you want to be in those colors.
Maybe I'm completely off, maybe this just isn't playable in the first place, as premature as such a statement would be considering the relative infancy of the archetype, but my testing simply does not reflect the negativity being displayed in this thread and I sincerely hope more like minded individuals come forward so we can actually put our heads together and really take this archetype forwards.
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Round 1: BG Constellation vs WU Heroics (2:1)
Round 2: 5 Color goodstuff (2:0)
Round 3: BWR Minotaurs (0:2)
Round 4: UR Control/Burn (2:0)
I got a lot of compliments since the deck was something completely new no one had seen before. Most people didn't know what the threats were.
Generally my play is turn 1 thoughtsize, turn 2 maggot to take their T3/T4 plays, then spiders for selfmill/blockers while I set up for night howler or strength from the fallen to be my win condition. Many games I would proc strength from the fallen 3-4x in the same turn for a huge attack.
If I could draw an eidolon of blossoms I would usually win. Even if it was removed promptly the CA was worth it, and it took one of their removal spells while boosting my graveyard count.
I had no chance against minotaurs though. I've played against the deck 10+ times and the threats are too fast, too big. I can't trade creatures, the cows are too big, and once a Kragma Warcaller drops its game over inside of 2 turns.
I'm reading through the thread and a few points are starting to emerge which quite honestly is perplexing me.
So lets start with the furore regarding the white splash. To me it seems that the proponents are arguing for the splash primarily for Banishing Light and a few other obscure options such as Ajani or limited anthem effects so lets start with that. What possible problem does Banishing Light solve that can not better be solved by options already available to you in these colors. Planeswalkers? Creatures? Enchantments? Gods? Do we not have access to Hero's Downfall, are we not in black giving us the best spot removal in the format, are Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm not cards, which deck besides Mono Blue even plays multiple Gods that we would need to warp our mana base to such a degree? Thoughtseize, Duress, Silence the Believers, Brain Maggot, Unravel the Æther...am I missing something here?
I look at decklists and people complaining of struggles against Desecration Demons, resolved Walkers, Monsters, fast aggro etc. Of course you are, you're not playing enough unconditional removal and instead are pussyfooting around with fancy splits and tweaks and then complain when you end up dying to a 6/6 for 4 or when you get out classed by a slow Midrange deck playing dumb beaters. Why are you not adjusting your removal to be more broad instead of trying to be slightly favored across the board. You are not focused and are being punished for it.
Soft to Aggro? You could be playing 4 Walls but instead opt to play a sketchy 1 mana repeatable cantrip combo then wonder why you can't stabilize in time for your 6 mana unreliable sweepers to be effective. You are not focused. So instead, we are throwing our toys out of the cot and dipping into a color that makes you even slower and worse off against aggro, to have access to tools that are redundant when considering the tools we already had in the first place. We don't need different removal, you simply need to better utilize the removal slots readily available to you. It's not a matter of quality, you're simply getting the quantity management wrong. You are unfocused.
You are main decking unreliable G1 sweeper effects, running too little catch all removal and now we're discussing adding a third color at a point in the format when we should be focusing on streamlining and mitigating self inflicted damage because of bad manabases. You are unfocused, and being unfocused you cannot expect any sort of consistency or long term development in your testing results. Could we add white? Well sure, but at that stage you might as well be on Hoogland Junk, as that is a more streamlined and more focused midrange deck if you want to be in those colors.
Maybe I'm completely off, maybe this just isn't playable in the first place, as premature as such a statement would be considering the relative infancy of the archetype, but my testing simply does not reflect the negativity being displayed in this thread and I sincerely hope more like minded individuals come forward so we can actually put our heads together and really take this archetype forwards.
I actually agree with you on splashing white---I don't think it actually solves any of the problems this deck has. I addressed it early on, and my point regarding that remains. My testing has been more generally positive than some being reported here, though the results coming in seem to be mostly positive for a deck that still hasn't been streamlined and tuned to it's best possible version. I didn't want to shut conversation down completely on splshing white, but I have no intentions of going through with it.
While I do disagree with a few things--I think that Extinguish All Hope as a singleton is worthy of including in the maindeck--I agree with the general tone of your post. Mana Bloom is currently out of my deck, as the curve of my deck increases somewhat. This color combination is pretty deep in terms of it's available cards, and I really don't think we need to move into a third color. Especially not for more removal and pump spells.
@Grinin and Matt57: I've tested Master of the Feast in this deck. It's a powerful card, but it gives our opponents too much of an advantage to justify running. Watching him get Azorius Charmed after your opponent drew a card off of him is painful, and all instant speed removal also makes him look pretty bad. He's good in an aggro deck where you're applying a lot of pressure and you can support him, but for us, the opponent can afford to take a hit and then deal with it after they've drawn two cards from the card. A BG enchantment aggro deck certainly seems possible, but it's hampered by trying to be two different decks. It won't be as fast or consistent as other aggro decks, and Eidolon of Blossoms is probably not a good engine to build an aggro deck around--you really don't want to be spending your fourth turn tapping out to just draw a card if you're trying to kill your opponent as fast as you can. And you still won't be able to go as long as many midrange decks go, and certainly not control. You can't rush fast enough with the enchantment creatures in this color to outdo the aggro decks in this format, and unless you commit to getting to the late game, running Eidolon without the discard spells and removal needed to justify playing it will just cause it to die and hurt your tempo immensely. Eidolon is not a card you can just drop into your decklist, run a bunch of enchantments, and call it a day.
@SoundofMadness: Like other BG decks, Blood Baron of Vizkopa is a card we have to watch out for. However, he isn't as much of a concern as usual, as we have a few things those decks do not have. Extinguish All Hope takes care of him, and Boon Satyr can block and kill him. I played a lot of games--more than 12, sideboard and postsideboard--against the Hoogland Junk build the other day, and I found that we have a mostly positive matchup, even despite Blood Baron. Extinguish All Hope is amazing against this deck, and our disruption and card draw is better than theirs. A Courser of Kruphix bestowed with Herald of Torment was also able to hold off a Blood Baron for a surprising amount of time. Blood Baron is by no means a non-issue---I lost one game solely to Blood Baron because I drew none of my outs and didn't have any bestow creatures to save me--but it is hardly the end of the world. We can pluck it out of their hand, and we can find ways to deal with it should it actually hit the field.
My problem was less EaH and more the combination of cards supporting it. If you cannot compliment your 6cmc sweeper against aggro then I have no sympathy if and when they eventually run you over.
As for Blood Baron, you already have upwards to 4 Devour Flesh's and 2 EaH's backed up by Thoughtseizes. If Baron is really prevalent in your area you can just as easily add some number of Lifebane's to your 75 and you'd be no less dead to Baron than any other Bx midrange list.
Edit: Funny scenario came up in grinding a few games over the weekend. Ever endstep destrow a D-Sphere that's holding multiple Eidolons at bay? Yea.
My problem was less EaH and more the combination of cards supporting it. If you cannot compliment your 6cmc sweeper against aggro then I have no sympathy if and when they eventually run you over.
As for Blood Baron, you already have upwards to 4 Devour Flesh's and 2 EaH's backed up by Thoughtseizes. If Baron is really prevalent in your area you can just as easily add some number of Lifebane's to your 75 and you'd be no less dead to Baron than any other Bx midrange list.
Edit: Funny scenario came up in grinding a few games over the weekend. Ever endstep destrow a D-Sphere that's holding multiple Eidolons at bay? Yea.
I do so adore Abrupt Decaying Detention Spheres. Nobody ever seems to see it coming. Abrupt Decaying Madcap Skills is similarly hilarious--I had a hexproof player ragequit on me when I killed his Gladecover Scout's Madcap Skills and ate it with an Eidolon. It's a lovely card.
The lack of removal in your list worries me some...
I've been doing some minor testing with the following...the Nykthos is mainly for the chance at added mana for the Silence the Believers...still haven't gotten to use either of those yet.
Played against BUG Walkers in a Match, lost 1-2...the only game I won, was the only game that I saw an Eidolon of Blossoms...didn't see one the other two games...I was also lamenting only having two Boon Satyr...oh, and having Ashiok take your Pharika, and have to face it down as a creature...that's messed up...:)
I think I also want Vraska somewhere in the 75...needs more testing first though...
The Sanguine Bond is perhaps too cute, but it's been very helpful vs control. The main draw to this is the Ram, Banishing Light, and Sphere of Saftey package which any aggro deck has a very hard time getting through. I started out GW, but the deck was just too slow so I added black which has sped the deck up considerably. Many have overlooked Sphere of Safety, but it just locks many opponent's out of the game and is not dead against control as most of them have to answer it before they can win the game. I haven't lost a match in testing yet, but I'm sure this isn't the optimal build.
Been testing a list online, want to see what you guys think:
For starters I think Mystic is absolutely the better mana dork in a list such as yours since you're far more interested in ramping from 1 > 3 most of the time. Nyx Weaver is a card I've never really gotten enough games with but I like it in theory. The fact that in running the Weaver, you're able to run less removal and 1 of's in general since you can recur it later is appealing, not a bad blocker either. I do however still like Pharika as a miser for her late game utility but there's definitely allot of room for innovation in these builds.
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So I've been trying this out. Works really well suprisingly. Have had several games where I had two eidolon of blossoms resolve and I just drown them in card advantge. Fate unravler works really well to out attrition thr opponent. Having 7 discard sources mb is just ridiculous against control. Really like the deck and will be tring it at some point at fnm.
About the lack of removal, I was finding that I often had "dead" pieces of removal in my hand so I decided to put them in the sideboard. I find that Thoughtseize + Brain Maggot provide more then enough disruption in the early game that allow my good defensive creatures, Courser of Kruphix and Nyx Weaver, get into place and then finish them off with bigger creatures (bestow) or overwhelm them with card advantage with Eidolon of Blossoms.
About the lack of removal, I was finding that I often had "dead" pieces of removal in my hand so I decided to put them in the sideboard. I find that Thoughtseize + Brain Maggot provide more then enough disruption in the early game that allow my good defensive creatures, Courser of Kruphix and Nyx Weaver, get into place and then finish them off with bigger creatures (bestow) or overwhelm them with card advantage with Eidolon of Blossoms.
I've been running 1 Doomwake, and have found it situational at best. I'm contemplating dropping it for a 3rd Boon Satyr, or I might test out Primeval Bounty in that slot
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I find that an unexpected strength of Pharika has been flashing in a snake at opponent's end of turn and then bestowing for pseudo-haste. It's no stormbreath dragon, but I've found that bestowing the snakes has been particularly relevant against control by helping to close out games before they can verdict or d-sphere-- and at any rate, bestow makes their removal a lot less helpful with a persist-type effect on every boon satyr and herald of torment.
Just something to consider when evaluating pharika. The only catch is she needs creatures in the grave, but I've found by the time I've been wanting to bestow, they've killed off at least one or two creatures already, and if not, we're in a winning board state anyway.
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I'm also with you on the Brain Maggot thing. It's lackluster, I have games where it shuts down cards for most of the game, but they just play their mana and draw into another threat. Possibly better suited like you said to switch to an anthem, or possibly more removal. I feel like Brain Maggot is a good card, but maybe for more of a tempo deck.
Banishing Light looks good, Oath could be good as well.
We could go another way and add our enchantment engine to something close to the current junk midrange shell, picking up archangel of thune, eidolon of countless battles, Nyx-fleece Ram, and possibly underworld coinsmith. Coinsmith and Ram give us angel counters and regular life gain, and I feel like most people will be reluctant to waste resources on them. Would have access to deicide and Banishing Light as well. Just some thoughts
I don't think Athreos, God of Passage is at all what this deck requires. It does nothing turn 3, and we're not putting enough pressure on the opponent to make the life drain terribly relevant. Even with white in the deck, it'll be a splash, so he'll be harder to give devotion.
I don't think Oath of the Ancient Wood really solves any of the issues this deck has. Making our creatures slightly bigger won't save them against the hail of removal spells coming in against control, and the card really doesn't do much when it comes into play. If the deck's main issue is it's speed, Oath isn't going to aid us.
I wouldn't dream of dropping Brain Maggot. It is often a temporary thoughtseize--that also counts for devotion and gives us constellation triggers--but it's more important as a tempo play than it is as a permanent answer. Although there are a few decks where it does permanently get rid of something, stalling their threats and removal trips up their plan and allows us to get to the late game. Often, by the time Brain Maggot dies, and the opponent gets the cards back, it's too late. Against aggro decks, ruining their curve is very important, and even if next turn they spend a turn removing Brain Maggot, you've still delayed their charge, and let you get closer to answers and stabilization. Against control, stalling answers is vital, as the opponent might be counting on that Supreme Verdict to save them, and instead they'll have to jump through hoops to get it back. And you'll know the verdict is coming, so you can plan accordingly. It is a card I am never unhappy to see in an opening hand, and I only ever don't want to see it if my opponent is topdecking.
If we move into white, Mana Bloom is definitely not the way to go, as it's not consistent enough manafixing.
If I were to play white, the only cards that really draw me towards the color are Banishing Light, of course, and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. Banishing Light obviously makes our removal suite more flexible, but Ajani, I think, offers the deck some very tempting advantages.
Ajani is another card advantage engine, finding us more creatures--and removal spells, should we play this theme strongly and run cards like Pacifism. Both of it's effects are very relevant, as it can turn our previously weak creatures into threats or beter blockers, permanently. He is actually the most tempting reason for us to go into white--he's good against control, and is really only unexciting against aggro, as he comes down rather late. I think he'd be better for us than Collective Blessing, being cheaper and able to play multiple roles.
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We can run Doom Blade and Ultimate Price. I don't think we'd really need reprisal.
Oath of the Ancient Wood triggers when it enters play so it does do something when you play it. The reason I like it is because it is flexible. You can simply give each one of your creatures a +1/+1 counter as they enter play (being an anthem) or pile them all on 1 creature making a large threat. It is also very cheap at 3 mana compared to Ajani and Collective Blessing. I know its an obscure card for sure. This is the only deck I'd ever consider playing it.
If there was a deck Oath of the Ancient Wood was playable in, it would be this one. However, this card has to be played instead of something else, and I cannot imagine dropping any of my current 3-drops for it. It also feels very underwhelming at all points of the curve--if it comes down turn 2 off a mystic, you now have a bigger mystic, I suppose, which isn't very exciting. Certainly not as impactful as Brain Maggot taking out a possible incoming threat, or an early Courser or Underworld Connections. It will then make every creature you play slightly bigger, which is not *bad*, per se, but it's slow. And if you need to make something bigger, you need to play multiple enchantments after said target and Oath are already on the field. And then you need said target to not just get removed, which will negate all that Oath has done on the turns it's been on the field. The 3-drop slot is already rather full, and I can't imagine ever playing this over my current 3-drops. Courser and Underworld Connections perform entirely different tasks, and are too important to replace. Boon Satyr is invaluable in the control matchup as well as anywhere we expect Blood Barons. I'm not playing it over Pharika. Herald of Torment is the best possible target for the +1/+1 counters this card would offer, so taking it out for it seems pointless. Hero's Downfall is likely too important to lose for a buffing effect.
Oath is also a very, very unfortunate topdeck in the late game unless you have a stocked graveyard and a Pharika out. But if your opponents aren't flying over you anyways, Pharika's tokens don't need minor buffs. I'd rather play Collective Blessing over Oath, and I'm not sold on Collective Blessing as something we require either. Ajani provides three oath activations in one +1 effect, while inhabiting a spot on the curve that isn't overstuffed. It provides significant meaningful effect, and can also draw us cards. It works well on a board full of our creatures and on a board that doesn't have many. If this deck were to run Ajani, it wouldn't be just as another card advantage engine, but as a way to make our creatures significant without Oath forcing us to commit more and more enchantments to the field to possibly make a creature a threat. Ajani can't allow us to alpha strike out of nowhere in the situation you just described, but over the course of two turns it can give two creatures that +3/+3 boost that the next turn Collective Blessing would have given, and allow us to recover from a Supreme Verdict. It comes down a turn earlier than Blessing, and it curves right into our sweeper, which happens to be a very good time to boost something and swing at the opponent. Collective Blessing isn't helping us out too much against control, where they're keeping our fields clear anyways. It can certainly enable a sudden alpha strike that wipes out the opponent, or it can come down on a largely empty field. It encourages us to overextend, which is not something we can do comfortably against control. And if we're only boosting one or two creatures at a time, Ajani will end up having a similar effect with just one of his abilities. It's certainly not helping us against aggro, as if we've reached turn 6, we're likely going to be fine anyways, or we're on death's door and our creatures being more powerful isn't going to save us, as we're not racing aggro. Cards like Primeval Bounty and Extinguish All Hope would be similarly powerful draws at this point against them, as we don't need to close out the game strongly against them, we just have to survive until a certain point.
I'm not sold on Ajani either, but I think I like him more than Collective Blessing, and I definitely like both more than Oath of the Ancient Wood. This deck does not need another incremental source of advantage, especially one less impactful than the others we currently run.
The pilot was saying his main problem of course was control, which black gives us game against in the form of thoughtseize, maggot, and duress... I dunno thoughts?
If control wasn't an issue, I'd definitely be playing the GW version---it's stronger against aggro and sphere of safety is a good card against both aggro and midrange. However, it is much, much worse against control. The deck can't be proactive enough to race control well, and it doesn't have the disruption to protect it's cards or disrupt control. I really don't see how they can ever get there against a tuned control list--supreme verdict is very live against them, and they don't have Underworld Connections to generate card advantage should their Eidolons fail. I think for the current metagame, black is essential if you want game against control.
So lets start with the furore regarding the white splash. To me it seems that the proponents are arguing for the splash primarily for Banishing Light and a few other obscure options such as Ajani or limited anthem effects so lets start with that. What possible problem does Banishing Light solve that can not better be solved by options already available to you in these colors. Planeswalkers? Creatures? Enchantments? Gods? Do we not have access to Hero's Downfall, are we not in black giving us the best spot removal in the format, are Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm not cards, which deck besides Mono Blue even plays multiple Gods that we would need to warp our mana base to such a degree? Thoughtseize, Duress, Silence the Believers, Brain Maggot, Unravel the Æther...am I missing something here?
I look at decklists and people complaining of struggles against Desecration Demons, resolved Walkers, Monsters, fast aggro etc. Of course you are, you're not playing enough unconditional removal and instead are pussyfooting around with fancy splits and tweaks and then complain when you end up dying to a 6/6 for 4 or when you get out classed by a slow Midrange deck playing dumb beaters. Why are you not adjusting your removal to be more broad instead of trying to be slightly favored across the board. You are not focused and are being punished for it.
Soft to Aggro? You could be playing 4 Walls but instead opt to play a sketchy 1 mana repeatable cantrip combo then wonder why you can't stabilize in time for your 6 mana unreliable sweepers to be effective. You are not focused. So instead, we are throwing our toys out of the cot and dipping into a color that makes you even slower and worse off against aggro, to have access to tools that are redundant when considering the tools we already had in the first place. We don't need different removal, you simply need to better utilize the removal slots readily available to you. It's not a matter of quality, you're simply getting the quantity management wrong. You are unfocused.
You are main decking unreliable G1 sweeper effects, running too little catch all removal and now we're discussing adding a third color at a point in the format when we should be focusing on streamlining and mitigating self inflicted damage because of bad manabases. You are unfocused, and being unfocused you cannot expect any sort of consistency or long term development in your testing results. Could we add white? Well sure, but at that stage you might as well be on Hoogland Junk, as that is a more streamlined and more focused midrange deck if you want to be in those colors.
Maybe I'm completely off, maybe this just isn't playable in the first place, as premature as such a statement would be considering the relative infancy of the archetype, but my testing simply does not reflect the negativity being displayed in this thread and I sincerely hope more like minded individuals come forward so we can actually put our heads together and really take this archetype forwards.
Round 1: BG Constellation vs WU Heroics (2:1)
Round 2: 5 Color goodstuff (2:0)
Round 3: BWR Minotaurs (0:2)
Round 4: UR Control/Burn (2:0)
I got a lot of compliments since the deck was something completely new no one had seen before. Most people didn't know what the threats were.
Generally my play is turn 1 thoughtsize, turn 2 maggot to take their T3/T4 plays, then spiders for selfmill/blockers while I set up for night howler or strength from the fallen to be my win condition. Many games I would proc strength from the fallen 3-4x in the same turn for a huge attack.
If I could draw an eidolon of blossoms I would usually win. Even if it was removed promptly the CA was worth it, and it took one of their removal spells while boosting my graveyard count.
I had no chance against minotaurs though. I've played against the deck 10+ times and the threats are too fast, too big. I can't trade creatures, the cows are too big, and once a Kragma Warcaller drops its game over inside of 2 turns.
(edit)
And I've noticed we have very few outs to BBoV...which is a bit concerning...
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
I actually agree with you on splashing white---I don't think it actually solves any of the problems this deck has. I addressed it early on, and my point regarding that remains. My testing has been more generally positive than some being reported here, though the results coming in seem to be mostly positive for a deck that still hasn't been streamlined and tuned to it's best possible version. I didn't want to shut conversation down completely on splshing white, but I have no intentions of going through with it.
While I do disagree with a few things--I think that Extinguish All Hope as a singleton is worthy of including in the maindeck--I agree with the general tone of your post. Mana Bloom is currently out of my deck, as the curve of my deck increases somewhat. This color combination is pretty deep in terms of it's available cards, and I really don't think we need to move into a third color. Especially not for more removal and pump spells.
@Grinin and Matt57: I've tested Master of the Feast in this deck. It's a powerful card, but it gives our opponents too much of an advantage to justify running. Watching him get Azorius Charmed after your opponent drew a card off of him is painful, and all instant speed removal also makes him look pretty bad. He's good in an aggro deck where you're applying a lot of pressure and you can support him, but for us, the opponent can afford to take a hit and then deal with it after they've drawn two cards from the card. A BG enchantment aggro deck certainly seems possible, but it's hampered by trying to be two different decks. It won't be as fast or consistent as other aggro decks, and Eidolon of Blossoms is probably not a good engine to build an aggro deck around--you really don't want to be spending your fourth turn tapping out to just draw a card if you're trying to kill your opponent as fast as you can. And you still won't be able to go as long as many midrange decks go, and certainly not control. You can't rush fast enough with the enchantment creatures in this color to outdo the aggro decks in this format, and unless you commit to getting to the late game, running Eidolon without the discard spells and removal needed to justify playing it will just cause it to die and hurt your tempo immensely. Eidolon is not a card you can just drop into your decklist, run a bunch of enchantments, and call it a day.
@SoundofMadness: Like other BG decks, Blood Baron of Vizkopa is a card we have to watch out for. However, he isn't as much of a concern as usual, as we have a few things those decks do not have. Extinguish All Hope takes care of him, and Boon Satyr can block and kill him. I played a lot of games--more than 12, sideboard and postsideboard--against the Hoogland Junk build the other day, and I found that we have a mostly positive matchup, even despite Blood Baron. Extinguish All Hope is amazing against this deck, and our disruption and card draw is better than theirs. A Courser of Kruphix bestowed with Herald of Torment was also able to hold off a Blood Baron for a surprising amount of time. Blood Baron is by no means a non-issue---I lost one game solely to Blood Baron because I drew none of my outs and didn't have any bestow creatures to save me--but it is hardly the end of the world. We can pluck it out of their hand, and we can find ways to deal with it should it actually hit the field.
My problem was less EaH and more the combination of cards supporting it. If you cannot compliment your 6cmc sweeper against aggro then I have no sympathy if and when they eventually run you over.
As for Blood Baron, you already have upwards to 4 Devour Flesh's and 2 EaH's backed up by Thoughtseizes. If Baron is really prevalent in your area you can just as easily add some number of Lifebane's to your 75 and you'd be no less dead to Baron than any other Bx midrange list.
Edit: Funny scenario came up in grinding a few games over the weekend. Ever endstep destrow a D-Sphere that's holding multiple Eidolons at bay? Yea.
I do so adore Abrupt Decaying Detention Spheres. Nobody ever seems to see it coming. Abrupt Decaying Madcap Skills is similarly hilarious--I had a hexproof player ragequit on me when I killed his Gladecover Scout's Madcap Skills and ate it with an Eidolon. It's a lovely card.
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Boon Satyr
4 Herald of Torment
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Brain Maggot
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
Lands - 22
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
7 Forest
7 Swamp
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Scavenging Ooze
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
4 Duress
Feels pretty solid so far, mostly losing to bad draws more then anything (several games in a row with either all land or no land).
The Polukranos, World Eaters in the sideboard will probably become something else, not sure what yet (maybe Extinguish All Hope?) Golgari Guildgates will become Temple of Malady soon enough.
The 12 discard (Thoughtseize, Duress, Brain Maggot) has been solid against control so far.
I know that the deck seems like it has a lot of three drops, but I view Boon Satyr and Herald of Torment as 5 CMC spells that have the option of being 3 CMC in a pinch. More often then not I'm going Thoughtseize/Brain Maggot into Courser of Kruphix/Nyx Weaver into Eidolon of Blossoms into Boon Satyr/Herald of Torment.
Lastly, Nyx Weaver is a very, very good card.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
I've been doing some minor testing with the following...the Nykthos is mainly for the chance at added mana for the Silence the Believers...still haven't gotten to use either of those yet.
Played against BUG Walkers in a Match, lost 1-2...the only game I won, was the only game that I saw an Eidolon of Blossoms...didn't see one the other two games...I was also lamenting only having two Boon Satyr...oh, and having Ashiok take your Pharika, and have to face it down as a creature...that's messed up...:)
I think I also want Vraska somewhere in the 75...needs more testing first though...
7 Forest
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Overgrown Tomb
7 Swamp
4 Temple of Malady
Spells
1 Devour Flesh
2 Golgari Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Putrefy
1 Silence the Believers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Underworld Connections
2 Boon Satyr
4 Brain Maggot
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Doomwake Giant
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Herald of Torment
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
1 Underworld Connections
2 Devour Flesh
2 Extinguish All Hope
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Ultimate Price
2 Bile Blight
1 Golgari Charm
Cheers,
SoM
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Auramancer
4 Grim Guardian
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Font of Fertility
4 Mana Bloom
4 Banishing Light
4 Sphere of Saftey
1 Sanguine Bond
3 Primeval Bounty
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Plenty
3 Temple of Silence
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Glare of Heresy
2 Deicide
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Sanguine Bond
3 Doomwake Giant
The Sanguine Bond is perhaps too cute, but it's been very helpful vs control. The main draw to this is the Ram, Banishing Light, and Sphere of Saftey package which any aggro deck has a very hard time getting through. I started out GW, but the deck was just too slow so I added black which has sped the deck up considerably. Many have overlooked Sphere of Safety, but it just locks many opponent's out of the game and is not dead against control as most of them have to answer it before they can win the game. I haven't lost a match in testing yet, but I'm sure this isn't the optimal build.
Modern: UW Spirits
For starters I think Mystic is absolutely the better mana dork in a list such as yours since you're far more interested in ramping from 1 > 3 most of the time. Nyx Weaver is a card I've never really gotten enough games with but I like it in theory. The fact that in running the Weaver, you're able to run less removal and 1 of's in general since you can recur it later is appealing, not a bad blocker either. I do however still like Pharika as a miser for her late game utility but there's definitely allot of room for innovation in these builds.
4 Eidolon of blossoms
3 Fate unravler
3 Master of the feast
3 courser of kruphix
3 brain maggot
2 pharakia, god of affliction
3 boon saytr
Instants: 10
4 hero's downfall
3 abrupt decay
3 devour flesh
Extinguish all hope
4 thoughtseize
Lands: 24
4 overgrown tomb
4 temple of malady
2 golgari guildgate
5 forest
7 swamp
2 mutavault
3 golgari charm
1 extinguish all hope
1 bow of nylea
2 putrefy
2 bile blight
4 duress
2 unravel the aether
So I've been trying this out. Works really well suprisingly. Have had several games where I had two eidolon of blossoms resolve and I just drown them in card advantge. Fate unravler works really well to out attrition thr opponent. Having 7 discard sources mb is just ridiculous against control. Really like the deck and will be tring it at some point at fnm.
I have been thinking of adding a couple Pharika, God of Affliction into the deck list, probably for a couple of the bestow guys. Was thinking 2 Pharika, God of Affliction, 3 Boon Satyr, 3 Herald of Torment would be a good mixture.
Also, do you think that the 2 Polukranos, World Eater in the sideboard could be Doomwake Giants?
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
Don't like giant much. If it was maybe -2/-2 might be squeezable but overall not a great choice
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
Just something to consider when evaluating pharika. The only catch is she needs creatures in the grave, but I've found by the time I've been wanting to bestow, they've killed off at least one or two creatures already, and if not, we're in a winning board state anyway.