That's the sole reason why I have Pain Seer in the deck post rotation. 2cmc creatures in black are.. meh.
I have always been a big advocate of Pain Seer. I ran the full four in my best placing when the power of the card was less well understood. My opponents often overestimated my average CMC so they were willing to let it trigger. I don't ever foresee cutting the card entirely.
Now that the card is known, it draws removal many time before you play your three drops, which are really the primary game winning engines. Keeping those 3CMC cards alive is super important and Pain Seer makes that much harder for the opponent to do.
When it does trigger, the extra card makes the deck just about unbeatable because you can can put yourself into what would normally be considered an overextended position without worry.
Running it into Caryatid and still getting the card advantage feels super sneaky.
There are a number of posts here with me talking about the fact that we will have a hole at 2CMC, but Pain Seer is a pretty good one to have in our lists going forward. We would need some huge home runs for the card to be cut entirely.
I would really like to see black version of Borderland Marauder. A 3/2 for 2 would be amazing, but I somehow doubt that fits into the overall vision for black.
Thanks for the advice, I do not currently have any more TKAs or Pain Seers, I will add them as soon as I can. I am hesitant to add more Marauders, as there is a lot of black in my meta. If I can get Mutavaults I will definitely go up to 21 lands. I do have to play against a mono green ramp and a RG Monster deck. If I remove shred-freaks for kill spells, would it be better to have doom blade or ultimate price? I've been thinking ultimate price, because I play against black, and the monsters don't have many multicolored creatures.
Against R/G monsters, if you decide to only run one 2CMC removal spell, run Doom Blade, as if they hard cast Ghor-Clan Rampager, Ultimate Price whiffs. Mono-green ramp, run both as you can absolutely crush them when they spend three or four turns building to some fatty that you slay with only 2 mana and minimal loss of tempo.
If there is any mono-black control/devotion in the your meta, then Doom Blade starts in the sideboard. There is also a chance that you will run in to the mirror match, W/B enchantments or Rakdos aggro, so too many chances for Doom Blade to be a dead card. Generally speaking, I agree with your choice; Ultimate Price is the safer choice, in my experience, to have in your starting 60. But Doom Blade is probably the card I bring in from the sideboard most often so don't forget about it.
Thanks for the advice, I do not currently have any more TKAs or Pain Seers, I will add them as soon as I can. I am hesitant to add more Marauders, as there is a lot of black in my meta. If I can get Mutavaults I will definitely go up to 21 lands. I do have to play against a mono green ramp and a RG Monster deck. If I remove shred-freaks for kill spells, would it be better to have doom blade or ultimate price? I've been thinking ultimate price, because I play against black, and the monsters don't have many multicolored creatures.
Price in the main, doom blade in the side. Don't worry about Mutavault, it's rotating soon.
Is anyone else concerned about the survivability of this deck come RTR rotation? It loses Thrill Kill Assassin, Rackdos Cackler, Lifebane Zombie, Mutavault, and Ultimate Price from the main. Duress and Doom Blade from the SB. So Pain Seer comes back in which is fine. Does Master of the Feast finally see his day? The removal package gets worse. Bile Blight may have to go a full 4. Heros Downfall is fine. But does Ulcerate make the main? That drawback scares me more than MotF does. Plus with MBA running 4 different enchantment creatures its sweeper for 2 mana wrecks. Any thoughts???
Is anyone else concerned about the survivability of this deck come RTR rotation? It loses Thrill Kill Assassin, Rackdos Cackler, Lifebane Zombie, Mutavault, and Ultimate Price from the main. Duress and Doom Blade from the SB. So Pain Seer comes back in which is fine. Does Master of the Feast finally see his day? The removal package gets worse. Bile Blight may have to go a full 4. Heros Downfall is fine. But does Ulcerate make the main? That drawback scares me more than MotF does. Plus with MBA running 4 different enchantment creatures its sweeper for 2 mana wrecks. Any thoughts???
I have the same worries as you. If there is less removal in the game, Master of Feast gets better, so maybe it will be his time.
I am not all that worried about the enchantment hate. If a green deck wants to run that card instead of Courser of Kruphix that isn't so bad for us.
I'm a bit concerned about my budget list. I will be loosing doom blade and ultimate price from the main. I don't have the money to spring for a playset of downfalls. And if we don't get another good black one-drop, our deck could reduce in effectiveness (But fortunately, we are loosing the worst black one-drop).Pain Seer is betterin my opinion than sign in blood because, well, you want creatures in an aggro deck, and we ARE losing TKA at rotation.
There is less 2-drop removal, but we still have downfall, Thoughtseize, and bile blight. Ulcerate is a possibility. I will probably run a variation of Jason Ellis's Theros block deck, with whatever Khans gives us
I feel your pain with mono blue and junk decks. I really hate blood baron of vizkopa and Fiendslayer Paladin. Short story I been playing Magic and using Mono Black Aggro for about 4 months now. Been going to FNM about 4 weeks now. I always get top 16 been to top 8 twice but never top 4. How do I change my luck with this deck. I spend hard earn money on this deck. Rotation is coming in two months. What do I switch up with? Please help if you can.
I am seeing conversation from people on here about Sign in Blood over Pain Seer and Vice versa and I am deciding to use both for one main reason.
Sometimes my opponent is just as 2 life and I need that sign in blood to close the deal. People forget that it targets your opponent as well and them drawing cards means nothing if they are dead.
So this was what I was testing today at the shop I work at, my tests were against U/W control and American Control
Please remember This build is preparing for The deck to rotate come october hence no cards from m14 or RTR Block are in the build
Bottom line today was that Sign in Blood won me games today. All from targeting my opponent to deal the last two points of life. Bestow, against control is stupidly powerful mechanic, and Spiteful return is a card I am never dissapointed in drawing, and Herald of Torment is still stupid good.
What I like about this deck is that I can switch to the control route against aggro decks, and then finish the game with a gigantic nighthowler. I seriously just take out all my 1 drops vs aggro and in comes more nighthowlers and removal
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Anyone go along a mono black devotion path and splash green for abrupt decay. It seems like something that would REALLY help in mono b/u devotion matchups.
I feel your pain with mono blue and junk decks. I really hate blood baron of vizkopa and Fiendslayer Paladin. Short story I been playing Magic and using Mono Black Aggro for about 4 months now. Been going to FNM about 4 weeks now. I always get top 16 been to top 8 twice but never top 4. How do I change my luck with this deck. I spend hard earn money on this deck. Rotation is coming in two months. What do I switch up with? Please help if you can.
+2 Tormented Heroes. -2 Lifebane Zombies to the side. -4 Pain Seers until Rotation. +4 Thrill Kill Assassins until rotation. -2 Master of the Feast until rotation. -2 Hero's Downfall. +4 2cmc remoaval (Bile Blight, Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, Devour Flesh or a combo of those four). Get ride of Maggot, Erebos and whip in your side. Try out +_2 more Duress, +1 Dark Betrayal, and maybe a couple of Boon of Erebos.
Anyone go along a mono black devotion path and splash green for abrupt decay. It seems like something that would REALLY help in mono b/u devotion matchups.
Then it wouldn't be mono black aggro.. lol.
But I've had no problem with MUD before. I main 3x Bile Blight and have 3x Doom Blade in the side. It's an easy matchup.
I'm not really worried about rotation and I think that most of the thoughts in this thread about post rotation are just speculations. We miss a completely new block that will certainly change a lot in the meta and could give us a lot of things too. So I would wait and think at the present of this deck, that is good. Of course, M15 did not give us a lot of things and the mass enchantments removal is a bad news (not just for us however...) and we miss a good 2 cmc spot removal. But we have really a lot of things to play: Nighthowler, Agent of the fates, Master of the feast, Boon of erebos, Pain seer, Phyrexian revoker, Bloodcrazed hoplite, Festergloom, Brain maggot, Tormod's crypt, ecc. Probably I'm not too worried because I never played 12 1 cmc creatures, so I'm already used to play a lot of 3 cmc creatures and I will not miss Rakdos cackler. We have a lot of choices in those 3 cmc slots even post rotation.
We lose some good things, the most powerful of which are IMHO Lifebane zombie and Mutavault. These are big losses, but we still have plenty of things to play and Khans of tarkir could give us even more. So, I'm positive.
By the way, I see a lot of people talking about a lot of cards from M15 (most of which are really bad for me) but nobody speaks about Festergloom. It seems to me the only nearly good card from M15 for us...
Mono black aggro is the.. second (?) most played deck in block constructed. It's not going to be hurt as bad as most decks come rotation.
The BEST card for this deck from M15 is Ulcerate. Curves really well with our stuff, especially turns 3-4. Removes most of what we need and trades favorably with Polukranos, Stormbreath and other 5/5 creatures.
No crap. It would be B/G Aggro, JUST for splashing green, just like Mono black devotion/ B/G devotion. Amazing! Fascinating! Magical! I said along a mono black devotion path, like what they changed into.
Congratulations on being autistic.
That last sentence was uncalled for. Warning issued for flaming. Please be civil. -rujasu
There is SO MUCH self life-loss in this deck, that you are more likely to kill yourself against control rather than them kill you. I once had a pacifism but on my herald of torment in a control game. I lost by loosing one life at a time for the rest of the game.
There is SO MUCH self life-loss in this deck, that you are more likely to kill yourself against control rather than them kill you. I once had a pacifism but on my herald of torment in a control game. I lost by loosing one life at a time for the rest of the game.
I'll do you one better (or I guess worse). I had Stab Wound cast on my Herald by a W/B enchantments deck. Lost 3 life per turn while powering up his constellation shenanigans. That sucked.
Those cases aside, while I do agree that in many games the majority of the life you lose is from self-inflicted wounds, the deck is efficient enough that it should still be able to get the opponent dead quick enough that you are still alive. Remember, winning with 1 life left counts the same as winning with 20 left.
This points to why Jund Monsters, in my experience, is such a hard matchup. We hurt ourselves some, they slow us down and ramp up with Caryatid and Courser, then their dragons and hydras have an easier time finishing us off because we are at a reduced life total.
As I posted before, my average spell CMC was ≈1.8. So if Pain Seer gets in for 2 and I never draw a land from the trigger (straight gas, baby!), on average I still profit in the race. That doesn't count the damage that the card drawn will enable, just balancing the life loss totals directly caused by Pain Seer. 0.2 life is obviously a pretty small margin for error, but the point is, the higher your average spell CMC, the fewer Pain Seer you should run.
The same holds true for other cards. Against RDW/Boss Sligh, Thoughtseize is taken out. The parts of their deck are all redundant so stripping one for two life isn't worth the loss of tempo or life. Their plan is for each card they have to do two damage, so the one-for-one plus two life lost for you is playing right into their hands.
This is just how I see it and perhaps it is different for others. To be honest, balancing the self inflicted damage is part of what makes this deck so compelling to play. It is another tactical consideration and what makes this deck far from the stereotype of a mindless aggro deck where all you do is play out your dudes and throw them into the red zone. I have had more than one control player tell me that in our matchups my side of table was clearly the skill intensive one. Sure, there are hands that just have all the gas, but those aren't why I continue to play this deck.
I have a Saturday standard event at my LGS and plan to use it as a testing opportunity. I do intend to sign a couple documents, assimilate some lands* and perhaps even cause some ulcers. If anyone has any particular requests or suggestions, as this is a low key event, let me know and I will see what I can do to give them a shot. Obviously I cannot do everything at once I won't learn anything, but if there is a consensus from people here what I should try out first, I will certainly take that under advisement.
*-FYI, I plan to say "We are Borg. Your lands have been assimilated." every time I play that card.
I've been curious about Xathrid Slyblade. Black Hexproof doesn't seem that common. Making her unblockable with Hot Soup or similar, and then buffing her up, could be something along the lines of a monstrous Fleecemane Lion, no? I guess you can still remove the buffs put on her and then block her, and she's probably on the outside edge of our aggro curve, where Master of the Feast, Herald of Torment and Nighthowler live, but it's interesting.
I don't consider her second ability that great, as the cost is extreme and an opponent will likely be waiting for that opportunity with some kind of instant death.
The idea is to stay aggro, but with more reach : underworld coinsmith, fate unraveller and sign in blood. I think white is a good addition, especially for all the side goodies we can get.
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I have always been a big advocate of Pain Seer. I ran the full four in my best placing when the power of the card was less well understood. My opponents often overestimated my average CMC so they were willing to let it trigger. I don't ever foresee cutting the card entirely.
I would really like to see black version of Borderland Marauder. A 3/2 for 2 would be amazing, but I somehow doubt that fits into the overall vision for black.
If there is any mono-black control/devotion in the your meta, then Doom Blade starts in the sideboard. There is also a chance that you will run in to the mirror match, W/B enchantments or Rakdos aggro, so too many chances for Doom Blade to be a dead card. Generally speaking, I agree with your choice; Ultimate Price is the safer choice, in my experience, to have in your starting 60. But Doom Blade is probably the card I bring in from the sideboard most often so don't forget about it.
Price in the main, doom blade in the side. Don't worry about Mutavault, it's rotating soon.
I have the same worries as you. If there is less removal in the game, Master of Feast gets better, so maybe it will be his time.
I am not all that worried about the enchantment hate. If a green deck wants to run that card instead of Courser of Kruphix that isn't so bad for us.
4 Herald of Torment
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spiteful Returned
4 Mogis's Marauder
2 Bile Blight
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
Lands
22 Swamp
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Nighthowler
2 Bile Blight
4 Duress
3 Doom Blade
2 Dark Betrayal
18 Swamp
4 Mutavault
Creatures
2 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Spiteful Returned
4 Pain Seer
4 Mogis's Marauder
4 Herald of Torment
2 Master of the Feast
2 Lifebane Zombie
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Brain Maggot
3 Doom Blade
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Duress
2 Bile Blight
2 Dark Betrayal
Sometimes my opponent is just as 2 life and I need that sign in blood to close the deal. People forget that it targets your opponent as well and them drawing cards means nothing if they are dead.
So this was what I was testing today at the shop I work at, my tests were against U/W control and American Control
Please remember This build is preparing for The deck to rotate come october hence no cards from m14 or RTR Block are in the build
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Spiteful Returned
4 Pain Seer
4 Mogis Marauder
4 Herald of Torment
2 Agent of Fates
2 Nighthowler
3 Bile Blight
3 Ulcerate
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Sign in Blood
Lands (22)
22 Swamps
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Nighhowler
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Stain the Mind
Bottom line today was that Sign in Blood won me games today. All from targeting my opponent to deal the last two points of life. Bestow, against control is stupidly powerful mechanic, and Spiteful return is a card I am never dissapointed in drawing, and Herald of Torment is still stupid good.
What I like about this deck is that I can switch to the control route against aggro decks, and then finish the game with a gigantic nighthowler. I seriously just take out all my 1 drops vs aggro and in comes more nighthowlers and removal
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
+2 Tormented Heroes. -2 Lifebane Zombies to the side. -4 Pain Seers until Rotation. +4 Thrill Kill Assassins until rotation. -2 Master of the Feast until rotation. -2 Hero's Downfall. +4 2cmc remoaval (Bile Blight, Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, Devour Flesh or a combo of those four). Get ride of Maggot, Erebos and whip in your side. Try out +_2 more Duress, +1 Dark Betrayal, and maybe a couple of Boon of Erebos.
Then it wouldn't be mono black aggro.. lol.
But I've had no problem with MUD before. I main 3x Bile Blight and have 3x Doom Blade in the side. It's an easy matchup.
Mono black aggro is the.. second (?) most played deck in block constructed. It's not going to be hurt as bad as most decks come rotation.
The BEST card for this deck from M15 is Ulcerate. Curves really well with our stuff, especially turns 3-4. Removes most of what we need and trades favorably with Polukranos, Stormbreath and other 5/5 creatures.
Congratulations on being autistic.
That last sentence was uncalled for. Warning issued for flaming. Please be civil. -rujasu
I'll do you one better (or I guess worse). I had Stab Wound cast on my Herald by a W/B enchantments deck. Lost 3 life per turn while powering up his constellation shenanigans. That sucked.
Those cases aside, while I do agree that in many games the majority of the life you lose is from self-inflicted wounds, the deck is efficient enough that it should still be able to get the opponent dead quick enough that you are still alive. Remember, winning with 1 life left counts the same as winning with 20 left.
This points to why Jund Monsters, in my experience, is such a hard matchup. We hurt ourselves some, they slow us down and ramp up with Caryatid and Courser, then their dragons and hydras have an easier time finishing us off because we are at a reduced life total.
As I posted before, my average spell CMC was ≈1.8. So if Pain Seer gets in for 2 and I never draw a land from the trigger (straight gas, baby!), on average I still profit in the race. That doesn't count the damage that the card drawn will enable, just balancing the life loss totals directly caused by Pain Seer. 0.2 life is obviously a pretty small margin for error, but the point is, the higher your average spell CMC, the fewer Pain Seer you should run.
The same holds true for other cards. Against RDW/Boss Sligh, Thoughtseize is taken out. The parts of their deck are all redundant so stripping one for two life isn't worth the loss of tempo or life. Their plan is for each card they have to do two damage, so the one-for-one plus two life lost for you is playing right into their hands.
This is just how I see it and perhaps it is different for others. To be honest, balancing the self inflicted damage is part of what makes this deck so compelling to play. It is another tactical consideration and what makes this deck far from the stereotype of a mindless aggro deck where all you do is play out your dudes and throw them into the red zone. I have had more than one control player tell me that in our matchups my side of table was clearly the skill intensive one. Sure, there are hands that just have all the gas, but those aren't why I continue to play this deck.
I have a Saturday standard event at my LGS and plan to use it as a testing opportunity. I do intend to sign a couple documents, assimilate some lands* and perhaps even cause some ulcers. If anyone has any particular requests or suggestions, as this is a low key event, let me know and I will see what I can do to give them a shot. Obviously I cannot do everything at once I won't learn anything, but if there is a consensus from people here what I should try out first, I will certainly take that under advisement.
*-FYI, I plan to say "We are Borg. Your lands have been assimilated." every time I play that card.
At your event, do you mind testing xadrith slyblade with ordeal of Erebos and other black auras too? That could spawn a new archetype.
Yeah, at 1.4, you should be all over Pain Seer.
What are you trying to accomplish with Xathrid Slyblade? I have to say I am really skeptical that a 4CMC 2/1 is going to be able to make the cut.
Wasnt auras/hexproof already an archetype?
I don't consider her second ability that great, as the cost is extreme and an opponent will likely be waiting for that opportunity with some kind of instant death.
I wonder what do you think about splashing white for Athreos, god of passage ? A list a bit like that :
4x Bile blight
2x brain maggot
4x caves of koilos
2x fate unraveler
2x feast on the fallen
4x gnarled scarhide
4x Herald of Torment
2x master of the feast
3x Mogis's marauder
3x Sign in blood
4x Spiteful Returned
4x Tormented Hero
2x underworld coinsmith
6x plain
12x swamp
The idea is to stay aggro, but with more reach : underworld coinsmith, fate unraveller and sign in blood. I think white is a good addition, especially for all the side goodies we can get.