Ah, I see your point there. On a side note, is anyone having trouble with naya hex proof? After losing in the finals one night at my Fnm, I decided to put one glaring spotlight in my board. It worked out very well, and I ended winnin the event on Monday.
Naya Hexproof is like my arch enemy. It was my first first match in top 8 a couple weeks ago and wrecked me. It also ruined my chance for top 8 last week too. That Glaring Spotlight would have rocked!
Cruel feeding is great. Usually at some point they end taking a 5 or 6 point swing from a fatty, so the instant speed lifelink makes red burn nearly impotent. Also, the deck forces red to 2-for-1 my creatures.
Cruel feeding is great. Usually at some point they end taking a 5 or 6 point swing from a fatty, so the instant speed lifelink makes red burn nearly impotent. Also, the deck forces red to 2-for-1 my creatures.
You would typically just use the base cost and not strive right? Cause then whip would be on the same curve.
Yes, just a base cost.
My turn 4 dynamic is interesting. The peak of my curve is at 3, so I can confidently use 1 of my 4 mana on turn 4 of gain 6 life off Master Of The Feast, then dropping a nice 3-drop rather than the usual Desecration Demon.
Generally that opens up the opponent's turn for you to act responsive, Bile Blight or Heroes' Downfall shining brightly, or just Underworld Connections because why not.
I've enjoyed Nighthowler a lot. If he's a 0/0 it means none of your creatures (or theirs) have died. If all of my 1 and 2 drops are still on the board from turn 4 onwards, I'm winning. If I haven't had to kill any of theirs, I'm winning or I'm playing against control, who will drop a board wipe sooner or later that charges up Nighthowler. Either your creatures die to fuel Nighthowler or he isn't needed and you're winning. At least, that's my experience. Master of the Feast makes a great buddy for him, you know they're going to take him out. Sure, they can use exile spells and enchantments, but I can't see people using banishing ward on my 1 drops unless it's a last resort.
The only thing Nighthowler has to fear is graveyard hate, and there are a few of those cards around. Crypt Incursion for instance. But hey, everything has a weakness and I've found him a game-winner. When people wipe out multiples of your creatures, they figure they've broken Aggro's back. They don't expect it to make you stronger (or bigger).
Talking about Back to Nature, how many decks run zero enchantments or enchantment creatures these days? Our deck runs a bunch, white's key removal spells fall under that list as do UW, madcap skills, that new Ensoul card is one worth fearing, any kind of bestow, bye bye constellation decks etc...I think it will be a 2 of main for any green deck that can be sided out or added to as necessary, at least in the beginning. Or maybe its bark will be worse than its bite and the threat will be overstated. I just see a lot of our post-rotation threats (including half of our 1 drops, 2 drops, and all of our 3 drops) not wanting to see it. It's the cheapest anti-bestow board wipe there is, even if it's just Master of the Feast removal. Should be interesting to see, I guess.
Ah, I see your point there. On a side note, is anyone having trouble with naya hex proof? After losing in the finals one night at my Fnm, I decided to put one glaring spotlight in my board. It worked out very well, and I ended winnin the event on Monday.
Naya Hexproof is like my arch enemy. It was my first first match in top 8 a couple weeks ago and wrecked me. It also ruined my chance for top 8 last week too. That Glaring Spotlight would have rocked!
Agent of the Fates is also very good against hexproof. Both his make them sacrifice heroic trigger and deathtouch are relevant. Put in a couple of Boon of Erebos and he really can do some work. That is what I did for the event I just attended based on very limited testing. But I never faced hexproof, ultimately, so take it with a grain of salt.
I've enjoyed Nighthowler a lot. If he's a 0/0 it means none of your creatures (or theirs) have died. If all of my 1 and 2 drops are still on the board from turn 4 onwards, I'm winning. If I haven't had to kill any of theirs, I'm winning or I'm playing against control, who will drop a board wipe sooner or later that charges up Nighthowler. Either your creatures die to fuel Nighthowler or he isn't needed and you're winning. At least, that's my experience. Master of the Feast makes a great buddy for him, you know they're going to take him out. Sure, they can use exile spells and enchantments, but I can't see people using banishing ward on my 1 drops unless it's a last resort.
The only thing Nighthowler has to fear is graveyard hate, and there are a few of those cards around. Crypt Incursion for instance. But hey, everything has a weakness and I've found him a game-winner. When people wipe out multiples of your creatures, they figure they've broken Aggro's back. They don't expect it to make you stronger (or bigger).
The one thing that I do like is the fact that Nighthowler's bestow is just 4CMC so you should be able to do that quite reliably. As a 3 drop, it is probably well behind all the other options we have, but as long as you remain disciplined and bestow it first, I certainly see how it can be very, very valuable.
Talking about Back to Nature, how many decks run zero enchantments or enchantment creatures these days? Our deck runs a bunch, white's key removal spells fall under that list as do UW, madcap skills, that new Ensoul card is one worth fearing, any kind of bestow, bye bye constellation decks etc...I think it will be a 2 of main for any green deck that can be sided out or added to as necessary, at least in the beginning. Or maybe its bark will be worse than its bite and the threat will be overstated. I just see a lot of our post-rotation threats (including half of our 1 drops, 2 drops, and all of our 3 drops) not wanting to see it. It's the cheapest anti-bestow board wipe there is, even if it's just Master of the Feast removal. Should be interesting to see, I guess.
I think, like many things, it will ebb and flow. Just like hexproof. People cut their sac effects, enchantment hate and discard, hexproof becomes viable. As that beats back the hexproof threat, the deck gets less popular, people stop running those cards as much, lather, rinse, repeat. I think Back to Nature and bestow will end up with the same relationship. What we need to do is make sure that, unlike hexproof, we can develop a viable version of this deck for those times, rather than just going completely away.
While I suspect that the bestow version will be the superior one, I still think that there is a legit mono-black aggro deck that only runs a handful of enchantments, as long as we get back 2CMC removal when Ultimate Price and Doom Blade from KTK. Or maybe it is something like the Nighthowler idea that allows us to leverage value from the graveyard in some way, but not an enchantment. I don't know, but I do know that I think the baseline of this deck means it is worth trying to do.
Or just make sure you have Devour Flesh against hexproof decks. Post rotation there are only.. 2 hexproof creatures (not counting Fleecemane Lion).
And zero Devour Flesh unless KTK tells us different. That said, I am not sure that our loss of Devour Flesh will mean all that much. I think right now hexproof has the most potential it is likely to ever have in standard, unless WotC makes a mistake in judging power levels. 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop hexproof guys, a pro-blue flash card in green, tons of auras and a relatively slow meta game that is vulnerable to quick beatdowns. If it weren't for the fact that mono-black devotion is the most powerful deck right now, and it has Devour Flesh and isn't too concerned about the lifegain that results, I would think that hexproof would be the best deck in standard.
Looking at the M15 spoilers and keeping my ear to the ground, I think the monsters deck could get even tougher. Lots of people talking about Green devotion or G/x devotion being a big part of the metagame. Time to move Lifebane Zombie back in the main, perhaps?
I know I am running MBA at M15 Game Day and maybe an event or two before then. Will be interesting to see if the meta winds blow in our favor. I am really hoping everyone falls in love with the suite of new walkers and have no real action until turn 4 or 5.
I doubt that hex will be an issue post rotation either. Remember that they will be losing gladecover scout, ethereal armor, unflinching courage... Heck, they won't even have witchstalker. They're literally missing almost all the tools except for basara tower archer... all of one 2 drop hexproofer. If it had high potential at any point, I think it was one rotation ago with geist of saint traft, gladecover scout, ethereal armor, invisible stalker, and rancor among others.
I don't think that in the absence of MBD hex would be the strongest, partially due to the fact that the meta would just shift with it. We'd see white with celestial flare, black with devour flesh and far // away, and so on. Whenever something shows up and starts winning, counters start getting more heavy play.
I don't think people will be durdling that hard when the dust settles but we'll see.
Or just make sure you have Devour Flesh against hexproof decks. Post rotation there are only.. 2 hexproof creatures (not counting Fleecemane Lion).
And zero Devour Flesh unless KTK tells us different. That said, I am not sure that our loss of Devour Flesh will mean all that much. I think right now hexproof has the most potential it is likely to ever have in standard, unless WotC makes a mistake in judging power levels. 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop hexproof guys, a pro-blue flash card in green, tons of auras and a relatively slow meta game that is vulnerable to quick beatdowns. If it weren't for the fact that mono-black devotion is the most powerful deck right now, and it has Devour Flesh and isn't too concerned about the lifegain that results, I would think that hexproof would be the best deck in standard.
Looking at the M15 spoilers and keeping my ear to the ground, I think the monsters deck could get even tougher. Lots of people talking about Green devotion or G/x devotion being a big part of the metagame. Time to move Lifebane Zombie back in the main, perhaps?
I know I am running MBA at M15 Game Day and maybe an event or two before then. Will be interesting to see if the meta winds blow in our favor. I am really hoping everyone falls in love with the suite of new walkers and have no real action until turn 4 or 5.
There won't be a standard hexproof deck post rotation. You heard it from me first.
I love looking at what is big in block right now to get an idea where people's heads are at. Naya Monsters, MBA, BUG control and W/U heroic are the block staples that see the most play. I'd say mono green is shooting up the list thanks to m15.
I'm looking forward to rotation. I really could care less about this "big" standard right now. Once RTR and m14 are gone, I'll be going all in, more so than I was for standard. That's what I'm testing now, seeing how it gels even with the power level of RTR cards still in the format. MBA block holds it's own still, which is a VERY encouraging sign.
I am looking forward to the smaller set because the prospects for Mono-black Aggro do seem very good, but at the same time, I am going to enjoy the current standard. I enjoy the challenge of facing the variety of decks that the current big card pool supports, in particular sending Pancho Villa and his band of caballeros in for the kill on turn 5.
Feast on the fallen: too slow for the lack of real game advancement
Child of the night: Much better 2CMC to choose from (spiteful returned, pain seer)
Paragon: Hall of Triumph is quicker and harder to get rid of and basically does the same
Cruel Sadist: a lot like pack rat.. Too slow to make it count in an aggro deck..
Crippling blight: okay but too much control instead of aggro.. Just use gnarled Scarhide to bestow late game if it comes down to it
Feast on the fallen - Too slow and too conditional. If the meta shifts to the point that we need to beef up our dudes, Hall of Triumph while lacking as much upside potential does the job more consistently, including the turn it is played.
Paragon of Open Graves - The body is not aggressive enough for the cost and again, if we need the buff for our guys, Hall of Triumph is likely a better way to go. Deathtouch is nice, but not at that cost.
Cruel Sadist - if the first ability didn't require tapping, I'd be all over this, but since you cannot attack and buff, seems like a poor fit for an aggro build.
Crippling Blight - I have talked about this before and while I am in the minority, I think it has potential. Here is what I posted:
A) Cast Crippling Blight and get in all the damage we can, but face the possibility of it going monstrous and cracking back
or
B) Cast Ulcerate, lose 3 life, trade a creature and the spell for the Hydra when it blocks, and miss out on some damage
or
C) Cast Bile Blight, trade a creature and the spell for the Hydra when it blocks, and miss out on some damage, plus any tempo lost from using the extra mana
For the most part, and opponent's creature that cannot block is as good as dead to us.
We'll have both Pharika's Chosen and Typhoid Rats available post rotation. I realize a 1/1 for 1 isn't that optimal, but the addition of Deathtouch makes me wonder. It's extra 1 drops they don't want to block, be blocked by or have to use removal for. With all of our bestow and some cheap buff options, could these make a good addition? I guess against control they're not what you want to see, but still.
Also, I fear Tormod's Crypt will be a natural sideboard against graveyard shenanigans, like Nighthowler, going forward
A 2/2 deathtouch for 2CMC will have my attention. While it won't be as good as TKA, it would likely do the job we need. But 1 damage per turn just isn't enough, IMO.
I am just hoping Takir is bringing something good, cause even though we are only losing a few cards from the deck. We are losing really good cards and I am not sure what to replace them with when M14, and RtR Block Roll out.
I've been thinking about this strategy. Has anybody thought about a 1-2 of Erebos, God of the Dead in the 75 somewhere? It's a great tool to deal with Hexproof's life gain and you have plenty of devotion to turn it and its 7 toughness on.
I have seen a couple of online decklists with Erebos in the sideboard, but have no experience with it myself. I am generally reluctant to run singletons in my sideboard unless it is an extra copy of mainboard card. I feel like if a card is deserving of getting a spot in my 75, 1 in 60 isn't enough to have the impact required. This is an aggro build that doesn't see a lot of cards if things are going right. For me, 2+ copies of a card or no copies. Perhaps that is wrong, but my experience has taught me that aggro needs consistency and 1 card in the deck is the opposite of that.
I am desperately searching for a replacement to Mutavault for the fall. Without it, we will be depending upon bestow to beat sweepers, which seems OK, but far from ideal. I am even considering Haunted Plate Mail and while I am really skeptical, four damage is a lot. Plus, you can do the same trick as with Mutavault where you activate, bestow, attack.
I think we will be ok we may have to reduce the number of enchantment creatures. I think Agent Of the Fates may become a 3-4 of since it's not a Enchantment has Deathtouch and a good ability not to mention it feeds Nighthowler.
The issue for me is that the enchantment hate has gotten better which makes depending upon bestow riskier. When Mutavault rotates out of the format, we lose completely the other way we have to come back after a sweeper. I am not trying to be doom and gloom, but the current level of resilience is what helps make this deck stronger than many other straight linear aggro builds and if we lose that, will the deck still be viable?
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Naya Hexproof is like my arch enemy. It was my first first match in top 8 a couple weeks ago and wrecked me. It also ruined my chance for top 8 last week too. That Glaring Spotlight would have rocked!
You would typically just use the base cost and not strive right? Cause then whip would be on the same curve.
My turn 4 dynamic is interesting. The peak of my curve is at 3, so I can confidently use 1 of my 4 mana on turn 4 of gain 6 life off Master Of The Feast, then dropping a nice 3-drop rather than the usual Desecration Demon.
Generally that opens up the opponent's turn for you to act responsive, Bile Blight or Heroes' Downfall shining brightly, or just Underworld Connections because why not.
The only thing Nighthowler has to fear is graveyard hate, and there are a few of those cards around. Crypt Incursion for instance. But hey, everything has a weakness and I've found him a game-winner. When people wipe out multiples of your creatures, they figure they've broken Aggro's back. They don't expect it to make you stronger (or bigger).
Talking about Back to Nature, how many decks run zero enchantments or enchantment creatures these days? Our deck runs a bunch, white's key removal spells fall under that list as do UW, madcap skills, that new Ensoul card is one worth fearing, any kind of bestow, bye bye constellation decks etc...I think it will be a 2 of main for any green deck that can be sided out or added to as necessary, at least in the beginning. Or maybe its bark will be worse than its bite and the threat will be overstated. I just see a lot of our post-rotation threats (including half of our 1 drops, 2 drops, and all of our 3 drops) not wanting to see it. It's the cheapest anti-bestow board wipe there is, even if it's just Master of the Feast removal. Should be interesting to see, I guess.
Agent of the Fates is also very good against hexproof. Both his make them sacrifice heroic trigger and deathtouch are relevant. Put in a couple of Boon of Erebos and he really can do some work. That is what I did for the event I just attended based on very limited testing. But I never faced hexproof, ultimately, so take it with a grain of salt.
The one thing that I do like is the fact that Nighthowler's bestow is just 4CMC so you should be able to do that quite reliably. As a 3 drop, it is probably well behind all the other options we have, but as long as you remain disciplined and bestow it first, I certainly see how it can be very, very valuable.
I think, like many things, it will ebb and flow. Just like hexproof. People cut their sac effects, enchantment hate and discard, hexproof becomes viable. As that beats back the hexproof threat, the deck gets less popular, people stop running those cards as much, lather, rinse, repeat. I think Back to Nature and bestow will end up with the same relationship. What we need to do is make sure that, unlike hexproof, we can develop a viable version of this deck for those times, rather than just going completely away.
While I suspect that the bestow version will be the superior one, I still think that there is a legit mono-black aggro deck that only runs a handful of enchantments, as long as we get back 2CMC removal when Ultimate Price and Doom Blade from KTK. Or maybe it is something like the Nighthowler idea that allows us to leverage value from the graveyard in some way, but not an enchantment. I don't know, but I do know that I think the baseline of this deck means it is worth trying to do.
And zero Devour Flesh unless KTK tells us different. That said, I am not sure that our loss of Devour Flesh will mean all that much. I think right now hexproof has the most potential it is likely to ever have in standard, unless WotC makes a mistake in judging power levels. 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop hexproof guys, a pro-blue flash card in green, tons of auras and a relatively slow meta game that is vulnerable to quick beatdowns. If it weren't for the fact that mono-black devotion is the most powerful deck right now, and it has Devour Flesh and isn't too concerned about the lifegain that results, I would think that hexproof would be the best deck in standard.
Looking at the M15 spoilers and keeping my ear to the ground, I think the monsters deck could get even tougher. Lots of people talking about Green devotion or G/x devotion being a big part of the metagame. Time to move Lifebane Zombie back in the main, perhaps?
I know I am running MBA at M15 Game Day and maybe an event or two before then. Will be interesting to see if the meta winds blow in our favor. I am really hoping everyone falls in love with the suite of new walkers and have no real action until turn 4 or 5.
I don't think that in the absence of MBD hex would be the strongest, partially due to the fact that the meta would just shift with it. We'd see white with celestial flare, black with devour flesh and far // away, and so on. Whenever something shows up and starts winning, counters start getting more heavy play.
I don't think people will be durdling that hard when the dust settles but we'll see.
There won't be a standard hexproof deck post rotation. You heard it from me first.
I love looking at what is big in block right now to get an idea where people's heads are at. Naya Monsters, MBA, BUG control and W/U heroic are the block staples that see the most play. I'd say mono green is shooting up the list thanks to m15.
I'm looking forward to rotation. I really could care less about this "big" standard right now. Once RTR and m14 are gone, I'll be going all in, more so than I was for standard. That's what I'm testing now, seeing how it gels even with the power level of RTR cards still in the format. MBA block holds it's own still, which is a VERY encouraging sign.
Feast on the fallen
Child of Night
Paragon of Open Graves
Cruel Sadist
Crippling Blight
Feast on the fallen: too slow for the lack of real game advancement
Child of the night: Much better 2CMC to choose from (spiteful returned, pain seer)
Paragon: Hall of Triumph is quicker and harder to get rid of and basically does the same
Cruel Sadist: a lot like pack rat.. Too slow to make it count in an aggro deck..
Crippling blight: okay but too much control instead of aggro.. Just use gnarled Scarhide to bestow late game if it comes down to it
Those are just my personal opinion though.
Feast on the fallen - Too slow and too conditional. If the meta shifts to the point that we need to beef up our dudes, Hall of Triumph while lacking as much upside potential does the job more consistently, including the turn it is played.
Child of Night - I am looking for a two drop to take the place of Thrill-Kill Assassin in the fall but this is not it.
Paragon of Open Graves - The body is not aggressive enough for the cost and again, if we need the buff for our guys, Hall of Triumph is likely a better way to go. Deathtouch is nice, but not at that cost.
Cruel Sadist - if the first ability didn't require tapping, I'd be all over this, but since you cannot attack and buff, seems like a poor fit for an aggro build.
Crippling Blight - I have talked about this before and while I am in the minority, I think it has potential. Here is what I posted:
What do we do when facing down Polukranos, World Eater on our turn 4?
A) Cast Crippling Blight and get in all the damage we can, but face the possibility of it going monstrous and cracking back
or
B) Cast Ulcerate, lose 3 life, trade a creature and the spell for the Hydra when it blocks, and miss out on some damage
or
C) Cast Bile Blight, trade a creature and the spell for the Hydra when it blocks, and miss out on some damage, plus any tempo lost from using the extra mana
For the most part, and opponent's creature that cannot block is as good as dead to us.
In this deck? All terrible EXCEPT maybe Crippling Blight. Maybe.
Also, I fear Tormod's Crypt will be a natural sideboard against graveyard shenanigans, like Nighthowler, going forward
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I am desperately searching for a replacement to Mutavault for the fall. Without it, we will be depending upon bestow to beat sweepers, which seems OK, but far from ideal. I am even considering Haunted Plate Mail and while I am really skeptical, four damage is a lot. Plus, you can do the same trick as with Mutavault where you activate, bestow, attack.
Non Enchantment creatures
1 Tormented Hero
2 Typhoid Rats
3 Pain Seer
4 Agent Of the Fates
5 Mogis's Marauder
Enchantment Creatures
1 Gnarled Scarhide
2 Spiteful Returned
3 Herald Of Torment
4 Master of the Feast
5 Nighthowler