Well... I think you'll need to find some more permanent solutions in general, not just for sideboard, but that aside, control will deal with your few threats. The best way to respond to that is more threats or answers to protect those threats. But ideally more threats because they're so few. You'll also need to shell out for hero's downfall or use pithing needle if you don't want to simply scoop as soon as you see Elspeth. Green devotion you'll have to kill spell out which is actually one of your better matchups at this time (still not good). Black devotion... That'll be hard. Normally I'd say higher threat density but I've already stated my opinions on the archetype in relation to that... Just focus on ensuring your threats will work, getting them, and achieving stable control.
By the way I forgot to mention that I won 2-1 on a casual game against black devotion splashed with blue Ashiok planewalker yesterday. I was able to remove his early nightveil and desecrate demon and milled his Ashiok by doorkeeper. Got 4 walls on field then turn 5 Phenax for the win. I guess I was lucky since I got Phenax at turn 5 LOL.
Is anyone thinking about running Jace, Architect of Thoughtin the deck? I mean it provides card advantage and does stall your opponent for a turn or two trying to get rid of him... I've been debating it a little bit.
Been trying a more aggressive deck build, using more aggro than just mill...played last night and got steamrolled...needs a better plan against burn/aggro and control...thoughts are appreciated!
Has anyone considered Tower Defense? With only two creatures and a Phenax out, it's a Standard Glimpse the Unthinkable! With three or more creatures, it just gets even scarier. It doesn't provide the untaps of Triton Tactics and costs 1 more, but the difference between 1 and 2 mana isn't so huge on turn 6. Of course, to run it we need to be in green anyway, but why not? Color fixing is great right now with Sylvan Caryatid being a natural fit in our deck.
Basically, how many creatures do we need to have out, and how small do they need to be, for Tower Defense to become more efficient at millout than Tactics? With an offline Phenax and two Walls of Frost, Tactics is better (34 mill vs. 24 for Defense). Make it two Walls of Frost and a Caryatid, though (Phenax still offline), it's 37 vs. 32 - a much closer gap. If our individual creatures happen to be smaller than Wall of Frost, the advantage of Triton Tactics disappears swiftly. With only two creatures able to tap-mill, a difference of two toughness is all there is between the spells. (Ie., a pair of 0/4's mill with Tactics just as well as a pair of 0/6's mill with Defense). Tactics wants bigger creatures and doesn't rely on overcommitment to the board to be good, so it may be superior to Tower Defense. Tactics wants size and Tower wants quantity, so Tower is probably worse against sweepers. I'm still interested in hearing others' thoughts and to find out if anyone has done any testing? Tactics in particular sounds nasty when combined with mill-growing creatures like Nighthowler, Wight, or Aberration.
Finally: what about Chronic Flooding? It's an early disruptive play that can punish the opponent if they try to curve out despite it, and later on can provide that elusive final point of devotion to turn Phenax on. Drawback is, it's not itself a creature to tap-mill. But if they tap despite it they get milled 3 per turn, and if they avoid tapping it then we have just essentially cast Sinkhole in Standard, which I hear is good too.
Edit: one more thing, I see a lot of Murmuring Phantasms in lists but precious few Frostburn Weirds. Why no love for Frosty? He's got two devotion and kills grizzly bears like a champ. One less toughness shouldn't be the whole world, should it?
Edit: one more thing, I see a lot of Murmuring Phantasms in lists but precious few Frostburn Weirds. Why no love for Frosty? He's got two devotion and kills grizzly bears like a champ. One less toughness shouldn't be the whole world, should it?
I run a playset of this guy and it really works good. Walls aggro early and can also act as a beater if needed. Mills for 4 when Phenax is out.
Here's a question: does anyone here have any test data on how well Nighthowler works in this deck? He counts all 'yards, so if you're up against a creature-heavy deck he could be a 7/7 off 20 cards in the enemy yard. If we run plenty of guys ourselves, he could have a few points from us as well. I'd probably only run 2 main and 2 board because he'd be very bad against Control - or maybe just board them all. Against creature-heavy decks, a couple Tome Scours or Breakings and he would be a very fat three drop (or bestow) that has the added ability to beat down like a champ and adds 2 Devotion for Phenax. It's even possible, if the opponent is sufficiently convinced by game 1 that we have no real way of beating down, that they might board strictly against mill and take out their removals, allowing Nighthowler an easy walk to victory.
Another card I'd consider is Mirko Vosk. When ramped out by Sylvan Caryatid, he gives us another decent 5-drop to shoot for. He's somewhat hard to kill (dodges Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, and most burn), has 4 toughness so he can Phenax-mill if he can't safely attack, punches into Planeswalkers, wears Nighthowler evasively, and on hit will generally mill 8-10 cards against most decks. He's a bit slow to come online but especially if you're full-on BUG with Caryatid and Axebane Guardian, ramping him out isn't too much of a challenge. In test games I can cast him pretty reliably on turn 4. His only big drawback in RtR/Thr standard is that the common scrying allows the opponent to set up a land on top to take some of the sting out of "mill to land" effects (which is why Undercity Informant is dead right now). But Mirko digs for four lands, they can't take all the pain away with scrying.
I'm also looking at the deck post-rotation. A lot is going away (Mirko and Breaking most crucially, but also all the "wall synergy" guys), but Wall of Frost, Phenax, Nighthowler, and plenty of other mill will remain. I think the deck could actually have a moment of opportunity available to it, depending on what we see in M15 and Khans. I'm excited about it!
I am wondering how the game plan changes versus creature light decks such as control and burn, while these archetypes may be gone in the future (September) I am wondering if there is a U/B alternative sideboard that can sort of be a strategy changer of the deck. I certainly do like the idea of running Phenax/Ashiok versus most decks. It seems that this color set can run sweepers versus aggro, flying walls versus midrange, but I wouldn't expect any of the walls to remain versus control, perhaps mutavault is necessary there. Versus control, you can't expect walls to make much of a change in the game without Phenax, and I expect they'd be swept before you get value from them, perhaps you could run one of the Mind Twist or Jester's Cap effects offered in UB at this time.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
Time to replace all of the Murmuring Phantasms with Nyx-fleece Rams! Blind Obedience can help against Aggro matchups with hasty creatures and allow you to ping them here and there with leftover mana.
I love the idea of the deck so much that I went and bought a bunch of these cards without thinking! But now that I can see how Phenax is the absolute core of this deck, it just seems so fragile if they take him with Deicide or Slaughter Games
I was thinking about alternate win-cons, but other than Ætherling, what else can we use? Consuming Aberration is terrible if you can't mill and since I'm talking about a scenario where Phenax is not available, this won't work. Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker as suggested before, might do some work here. If you're running him, then Consuming Aberration works, as does Duskmantle Guildmage
My list uses three Thassa, God of the Seas, so maybe use her activated ability in conjunction with Cipher cards? Do Cipher cards fall off if Thassa doesn't have enough devotion to be a creature?
Time to replace all of the Murmuring Phantasms with Nyx-fleece Rams! Blind Obedience can help against Aggro matchups with hasty creatures and allow you to ping them here and there with leftover mana.
Good idea - basically go Esper. Since all the good "defender synergy" stuff will be rotating out in the fall, most of the reasons to play green will disappear with them (ie., no Axebane Guardians). Green's only playable card in the list will be Caryatid. Ram is a great idea and will help us survive vs. burn and aggro.
I love the idea of the deck so much that I went and bought a bunch of these cards without thinking! But now that I can see how Phenax is the absolute core of this deck, it just seems so fragile if they take him with Deicide or Slaughter Games
Any sort of Leyline of Sanctity type effect will work here. The only one currently in standard is Aegis of the Gods. Here's hoping we get an artifact with a power like this. Another option would be a card like Council of the Absolute (which sadly is also rotating). Slaughter Games can't be countered, but it can be prevented from being cast! Of course, Slaughter Games will be rotating too, but WotC will probably print a replacement for it somewhere in Khans block. There's always some sort of Memoricide or Thought Hemorrhage effect running around in Standard to hose out combo decks, or decks that have too few real win-cons. Since we will also lose our most reliable and cheap big-mill spell (Breaking), we will have to carefully reevaluate whether Mill is even viable after rotation.
I was thinking about alternate win-cons, but other than Ætherling, what else can we use? Consuming Aberration is terrible if you can't mill and since I'm talking about a scenario where Phenax is not available, this won't work.
Well, Aberration itself causes mill, and by the time you get it you should have landed a Tome Scour or Breaking by then. He tends to die to removal but he's still often at least a 6/6 or 7/7 for 5, which is not really bad. He blocks competently and represents a fairly reliable 2-3 mill per turn. He generally works better in mill decks full of cheap instants and sorceries though. The "mill for land" cards from Dimir are generally strongest against Aggro decks (which are land light) and weakest against Control decks (which are land heavy). Aberration should always be boarded out against Control, his mill effect is too weak and walking him into a Gainsay is too big a tempo loss.
My list uses three Thassa, God of the Seas, so maybe use her activated ability in conjunction with Cipher cards? Do Cipher cards fall off if Thassa doesn't have enough devotion to be a creature?
Rule 702.97c:
The card with cipher remains encoded on the chosen creature as long as the card with cipher remains exiled and the creature remains on the battlefield. The card remains encoded on that object even if it changes controller or stops being a creature, as long as it remains on the battlefield.
So Cipher cards remain encoded as long as the card remains on the battlefield. What's critical is that the card must be a creature at the moment the Cipher spell resolves. So if you control Wall of Frost x2 and Thassa (online) and cast Paranoid Delusions, and they kill a Wall in response, you will be forced to either not encode it on anything, or encode it onto a wall that can't attack. Ouch. Thassa's unblockability + cipher spells is awesome. Just don't get caught out this way!
Again, I'd like to point out that Nighthowler is a much cheaper Aberration type creature. It counts only creatures, but it counts both graveyards' worth. I think it deserves some consideration as it can actually attack and not just block like most of our guys.
URW Control
U R Blood Moons Over My Hammy
11 Island
1 Mutavault
6 Swamp
2 Dimir Guildgate
4 Temple of Deceit
1 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Hover Barrier
2 Nighthowler
4 Omenspeaker
2 Phenax, God of Deception
4 Wall of Frost
3 Mnemonic Wall
4 Keepsake Gorgon
2 Read the Bones
2 Swan Song
3 Pilfered Plans
1 Voyage's End
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Divination
3 Triton Tactics
1 Dispel
I have found that this works quite well. Lots of scry and card draw to dig for Phenax (i only own two so when i get another i will up it to three)
4 nighthowler
4 desecration demon
3 hover barrier
3 Phenax, God of Deceit
3 breaking // entering
3 tome scour
3 thoughtseize
3 hero's downfall
3 ashiok, nightmare weaver
2 jace, memory adept
2 traumatize
4 watery grave
4 temple of deceit
8 swamp
7 island
—Radha, Keldon warlord
Basically, how many creatures do we need to have out, and how small do they need to be, for Tower Defense to become more efficient at millout than Tactics? With an offline Phenax and two Walls of Frost, Tactics is better (34 mill vs. 24 for Defense). Make it two Walls of Frost and a Caryatid, though (Phenax still offline), it's 37 vs. 32 - a much closer gap. If our individual creatures happen to be smaller than Wall of Frost, the advantage of Triton Tactics disappears swiftly. With only two creatures able to tap-mill, a difference of two toughness is all there is between the spells. (Ie., a pair of 0/4's mill with Tactics just as well as a pair of 0/6's mill with Defense). Tactics wants bigger creatures and doesn't rely on overcommitment to the board to be good, so it may be superior to Tower Defense. Tactics wants size and Tower wants quantity, so Tower is probably worse against sweepers. I'm still interested in hearing others' thoughts and to find out if anyone has done any testing? Tactics in particular sounds nasty when combined with mill-growing creatures like Nighthowler, Wight, or Aberration.
Finally: what about Chronic Flooding? It's an early disruptive play that can punish the opponent if they try to curve out despite it, and later on can provide that elusive final point of devotion to turn Phenax on. Drawback is, it's not itself a creature to tap-mill. But if they tap despite it they get milled 3 per turn, and if they avoid tapping it then we have just essentially cast Sinkhole in Standard, which I hear is good too.
Edit: one more thing, I see a lot of Murmuring Phantasms in lists but precious few Frostburn Weirds. Why no love for Frosty? He's got two devotion and kills grizzly bears like a champ. One less toughness shouldn't be the whole world, should it?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I run a playset of this guy and it really works good. Walls aggro early and can also act as a beater if needed. Mills for 4 when Phenax is out.
Also, I find Dimir Charm interesting in here too.
Another card I'd consider is Mirko Vosk. When ramped out by Sylvan Caryatid, he gives us another decent 5-drop to shoot for. He's somewhat hard to kill (dodges Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, and most burn), has 4 toughness so he can Phenax-mill if he can't safely attack, punches into Planeswalkers, wears Nighthowler evasively, and on hit will generally mill 8-10 cards against most decks. He's a bit slow to come online but especially if you're full-on BUG with Caryatid and Axebane Guardian, ramping him out isn't too much of a challenge. In test games I can cast him pretty reliably on turn 4. His only big drawback in RtR/Thr standard is that the common scrying allows the opponent to set up a land on top to take some of the sting out of "mill to land" effects (which is why Undercity Informant is dead right now). But Mirko digs for four lands, they can't take all the pain away with scrying.
I'm also looking at the deck post-rotation. A lot is going away (Mirko and Breaking most crucially, but also all the "wall synergy" guys), but Wall of Frost, Phenax, Nighthowler, and plenty of other mill will remain. I think the deck could actually have a moment of opportunity available to it, depending on what we see in M15 and Khans. I'm excited about it!
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I love the idea of the deck so much that I went and bought a bunch of these cards without thinking! But now that I can see how Phenax is the absolute core of this deck, it just seems so fragile if they take him with Deicide or Slaughter Games
I was thinking about alternate win-cons, but other than Ætherling, what else can we use?
Consuming Aberration is terrible if you can't mill and since I'm talking about a scenario where Phenax is not available, this won't work.
Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker as suggested before, might do some work here. If you're running him, then Consuming Aberration works, as does Duskmantle Guildmage
My list uses three Thassa, God of the Seas, so maybe use her activated ability in conjunction with Cipher cards? Do Cipher cards fall off if Thassa doesn't have enough devotion to be a creature?
Good idea - basically go Esper. Since all the good "defender synergy" stuff will be rotating out in the fall, most of the reasons to play green will disappear with them (ie., no Axebane Guardians). Green's only playable card in the list will be Caryatid. Ram is a great idea and will help us survive vs. burn and aggro.
Any sort of Leyline of Sanctity type effect will work here. The only one currently in standard is Aegis of the Gods. Here's hoping we get an artifact with a power like this. Another option would be a card like Council of the Absolute (which sadly is also rotating). Slaughter Games can't be countered, but it can be prevented from being cast! Of course, Slaughter Games will be rotating too, but WotC will probably print a replacement for it somewhere in Khans block. There's always some sort of Memoricide or Thought Hemorrhage effect running around in Standard to hose out combo decks, or decks that have too few real win-cons. Since we will also lose our most reliable and cheap big-mill spell (Breaking), we will have to carefully reevaluate whether Mill is even viable after rotation.
Well, Aberration itself causes mill, and by the time you get it you should have landed a Tome Scour or Breaking by then. He tends to die to removal but he's still often at least a 6/6 or 7/7 for 5, which is not really bad. He blocks competently and represents a fairly reliable 2-3 mill per turn. He generally works better in mill decks full of cheap instants and sorceries though. The "mill for land" cards from Dimir are generally strongest against Aggro decks (which are land light) and weakest against Control decks (which are land heavy). Aberration should always be boarded out against Control, his mill effect is too weak and walking him into a Gainsay is too big a tempo loss.
Rule 702.97c:
So Cipher cards remain encoded as long as the card remains on the battlefield. What's critical is that the card must be a creature at the moment the Cipher spell resolves. So if you control Wall of Frost x2 and Thassa (online) and cast Paranoid Delusions, and they kill a Wall in response, you will be forced to either not encode it on anything, or encode it onto a wall that can't attack. Ouch. Thassa's unblockability + cipher spells is awesome. Just don't get caught out this way!
Again, I'd like to point out that Nighthowler is a much cheaper Aberration type creature. It counts only creatures, but it counts both graveyards' worth. I think it deserves some consideration as it can actually attack and not just block like most of our guys.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*