There's plenty more but meh. However, this doesn't make returned phalanx bad. Let's look at RDW. Phalanx walls and kills the following.
Burning-tree emissary
Ash zealot
Rakdos cackler
Sort of firefist striker. It does wall and kill it but firefist striker aims to prevent them from blocking.
Etc. But those enter the mind most clearly.
White weenie and barely boros.
Soldier of the pantheon
Dryad militant
Precinct captain
Imposing sovereign
Banisher priest
These blocks aren't irrelevant by a long shot.
Most importantly, you force your opponent to have that removal to kill it unless they want a portion of their army to not be able to take part in the attack or are ready to lose a creature each combat. 4 lightning strikes is still 4 just lightning strikes. If they have it, oh well. That's a turn they're not getting to poke though with a possibly hasty creature while saving the strike for the face. If they don't, its a pain in the neck.
Fairly key advantages over the typical wallish thing. However, returned phalanx's advantages are much less good with your ability to now play drown in sorrow.
Elite Arcanist + Triton Tactics + Phenax + any other guy.
You need at least 5 mana to play Phenax, meaning you can use Tactics to untap arcanist + wall at least 5 times the following turn.
5 Tactics is 15 extra toughness onto the Arcanist at the end of it, plus 15 toughness total on your other guy is 30 mill. Even if your other guy sucks, it's still enough. Example, Arcanist and another 1/1 (for simplicities sake):
tap 1/1 (1 milled) activate arcanist, untap both;
tap 1/3 (4) activate arcanist;
tap 1/6 (10) activate arcanist;
tap 1/9 (19) activate arcanist;
tap 1/12 (31) activate arcanist;
tap 1/15 (46) tap arcanist who is now a 1/16, total milled: 62, opponent loses on draw step.
Elite arcanist is cute but delicate. Its a 3 card combo that effectively requires you to untap after arcanist and a tactics on it. Realistically, just the arcanist is enough. And that's 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16. You only added 2 to the first. The safest way to do it unless you had an exoriant amount of mana would be to put Phenax out first, then the arcanist with counter mana. Then when you untap, you can kill. But there's a few chinks with this. Triton tactics isn't exactly a good card unless you're set to win with it. Arcanist is squishy and doesn't defend you. Phenax doesn't defend you either unless you've won the game (ie, you have an army that's sticking). So its cool but the cards individually don't help very much. You may as well assemble Jace MA or Phenax plus things+ duskmantle guildmage. At least that can't be solved by an instant speed spot removal towards your last enabler and is easier to play. With duskmantle, you still have priority anyway so even if they kill it, you can activate the first ability. Though you could also respond to a spot removal with it anyway. Whereas with arcanist, they can respond to you using it to cast triton tactics with a kill spell and you'll have to either counter the kill spell or play another triton tactics from your hand (or something similar) to untap the arcanist so you can try again and proceed to do all the mills on the stack before the kill spell can resolve. But you'd have to have more answers than they kill spells. Duskmantle will win out against any number of them. To stop it, they'd have to downfall Jace or the other enabler or counter the duskmantle.
So its a funny kind of thing and it does work but its not the most consistent, the fastest, or the safest and it doesn't use the most individually reliable pieces.
Elite arcanist is cute but delicate. Its a 3 card combo that effectively requires you to untap after arcanist and a tactics on it. Realistically, just the arcanist is enough. And that's 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16. You only added 2 to the first. The safest way to do it unless you had an exoriant amount of mana would be to put Phenax out first, then the arcanist with counter mana. Then when you untap, you can kill. But there's a few chinks with this. Triton tactics isn't exactly a good card unless you're set to win with it. Arcanist is squishy and doesn't defend you. Phenax doesn't defend you either unless you've won the game (ie, you have an army that's sticking). So its cool but the cards individually don't help very much. You may as well assemble Jace MA or Phenax plus things+ duskmantle guildmage. At least that can't be solved by an instant speed spot removal towards your last enabler and is easier to play. With duskmantle, you still have priority anyway so even if they kill it, you can activate the first ability. Though you could also respond to a spot removal with it anyway. Whereas with arcanist, they can respond to you using it to cast triton tactics with a kill spell and you'll have to either counter the kill spell or play another triton tactics from your hand (or something similar) to untap the arcanist so you can try again and proceed to do all the mills on the stack before the kill spell can resolve. But you'd have to have more answers than they kill spells. Duskmantle will win out against any number of them. To stop it, they'd have to downfall Jace or the other enabler or counter the duskmantle.
So its a funny kind of thing and it does work but its not the most consistent, the fastest, or the safest and it doesn't use the most individually reliable pieces.
I can name 5 cards that could kill returned phalanx in 5 seconds.
of course. The alternative is Frostburn Weird, which gets it out of burn range, but doesn't have the punch to kill off things. And I say, go ahead and kill it with burn, be my guest. It's one less Lightning Strike you'll have to hit my Nightveil's with. Plus, if they are spending mana on killing it, it's mana they are not spending on another creature.
If I want to turn on Phenax I want to do it with non creature perminates. because creatures die to supreme verdict. then you have a 4/7 that mills for 7.
might want to throw in some sweepers in the sideboard like Whelming wave or drown in sorrow/bile blight. If you have an ashiok or jace out, its a nice reset button against decks that poop their hands out and overcommit. Granted G/R based devotion decks can slam them back out, but it gives you another turn with ashiok or jace. it also lets you hold back on turning phenax on for a turn so they overcommit. Just a thought...
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Walls are completely pointless unless Phenax is out, I would drop them for more efficient creatures. Returned Phalanx is good card for the 2 slot to deal with speedy weenies.
They aren't completely pointless as they do clog up the board a bit, but sometimes they can be a bit annoying as they don't do much without Phenax out. I think the correct build here is one that can put pressure on with non-defenders but also becomes something of a beast when Phenax comes out, my list is incomplete (as I don't have full sets of certain cards yet) but would anyone care to help me with possible tweaks? I still need to test this out
I have a whole playset of Bile Blight and almost a whole playset of Drown in Sorrow in my collection so I could utilize those. I was thinking that drown in sorrow wouldn't be a bad card to have as it won't kill anything I own. On top of that if we have enough high toughness creatures, aggro may try to over extend to compensate and deal with Ashiok so drown in sorrow could be pretty effective. Let's keep discussing I want to bring this archetype to game day as well and want to make sure it's as tuned as we can get it.
Mnemonic wall - maybe too fancy for 5cc on this deck but i can see where you're coming from. I'll try it on my BUG build that runs prophet and breaking/entering.
Disciple of Phenax; I don't really have a ton of black permanents but by the time I play this, looking at 2 or 3 cards may be a majority of their hand. Good utility and a decently-sized butt.
Returned Centaur; Mill, a decent butt, and enough power to get rid of most early threats.
Chronic Flooding; If you can drop it on turn two, it's either gonna mill a lot of cards or slow them down a lot. If you drop it much later than that, it's pretty insignificant. High ceiling, low floor.
Mnemonic Wall; A little high on the curve but it's hard to deny the value it provides.
I always preferred contaminated ground to chronic flooding in UB regardless of the deck style. Back when I played mill I would sideboard one and keep the other main but only had two of each. Ground will take a chunk out of sphinx as well if you suspect one is coming down the line.
remove doorkeeper. it is no good with phenax. dissolve is better then strike for a counter.
I disagree about Doorkeeper. It can get the ball rolling if Phenax and it can keep working towards the end goal even if Phenax is removed from play. With Phenax on the board, he's at least milling for 4 each turn but he can potentially hit for mre than that if I have established a sizeable board presence (I admit, not extremely likely).
I always preferred contaminated ground to chronic flooding in UB regardless of the deck style. Back when I played mill I would sideboard one and keep the other main but only had two of each. Ground will take a chunk out of sphinx as well if you suspect one is coming down the line.
Contaminated Ground just doesn't really do much in this deck. Sure it can shut off some color against non-black decks but the damage it does is nearly insignificant in this deck. I'm not too worried about Sphinx's. The lifegain has little to no bearing on my win condition and the large card draw actually helps me with it.
Here is a build that I don't personally own but an aquaintence of mine helped me to craft. So far in testing, I rarely get to mill via Phenax's ability so that sort of concerns me but I do like the control spells I have access too and the ability to scry a lot. I feel this list is able to provide the devotion for Phenax to become active and even if it's just him and one other creature representing milling potential it's still decent, but anyway I'd like advice on this version as well, what do you guys think? Is this the best deck to put Phenax in?
Contaminated Ground just doesn't really do much in this deck. Sure it can shut off some color against non-black decks but the damage it does is nearly insignificant in this deck. I'm not too worried about Sphinx's. The lifegain has little to no bearing on my win condition and the large card draw actually helps me with it.
Play test it. My experience was it prevented turn twos (sometimes 3s) and a lot of people are not willing to take damage just for tapping a land at all and would simply abandon that mana.
I didn't know it was requisite to do a large sphinx! Heck, once most people realized I was playing mill they knew not to do it! Same with their Jace AOTs (I like that you have pithing needle and heros downfall in your deck though, so many decks without pithing needle!)
Welp, good luck. I think out of defender mill I am actually kind of warming up to your deck, but I always require dimir charm in my builds and have casted out consuming aberration for mirko vosk. Developing a taste for land hate.
I think that that's a bit too opimistic. Some people will get the jitters and not tap the land lor not play the rev but those often won't be the correct moves. I would like to assume that a deck would be made with the assumption yyour opponent is a smart person and has either a very quick or long term game plan and has prepared the tools to get there. With the Jace and shinx example, I'd assume uw control. I'd also assume that there's an elixir in there and tha they're packing the agents to potentially stop you. D-sphere, supreme verdict, etc. And I'd assume that they have a game plan beyond plain survival. So a smart player won't stop playing his or her deck just because you're mill. Instead, it'll be their business to keep you in check while digging for their win and protecting it. Obviously, you don't rev for 10 against a mill deck but that doesn't mean they shouldn't rev. It just means that they should do it within reasonvto dig for stops or something to kill you and not recklessly. Its just a different kind of race.
Akuyawa,
Thanks for your suggestion. Could you explain your reasoning a little. Are the jace and thassa to aid in digging for phenax? I like your suggestions though. Let's keep working on this archetype. Is anyone play testing this actively? I am and would like to compare notes
Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
I actual prefer Hover barrier because it flys.
Murmuring Phantasm is a 0/5 for 1U Hover is a 0/6 with flying. It just blocks quite a Bit. I am never sad when I see it.
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
Quote from Kekule_the_Magician »
As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
Rather than focusing more on high toughness creatures inherently, this one instead uses buffs of Spear of Heliod and Hold the Gates. It's pretty crazy on colors, but it's got plenty of mana fixing to make up for that, with Axebane Guardian, Sylvan Carytid, Gatekeeper Vine, and Chromatic Lantern, as well as all the lands being some form of dual-lands. All that mana generation also helps power up Sphinx's Revelation to get everything out.
I would play read the bone or some sort of serious dig. This is essentially a combo deck that plays enough walls then drops Phenax for a 2 turn clock. I'd almost consider diabolical tutor. Abberation I'm against, it's too cute. So is lazav and nighthowler. I'd throw thoughseize to the side and throw in more walls and possible aetherize.
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Lightning strike
Ultimate price
Hero's downfall
Detention Sphere
Mizzium mortars
There's plenty more but meh. However, this doesn't make returned phalanx bad. Let's look at RDW. Phalanx walls and kills the following.
Burning-tree emissary
Ash zealot
Rakdos cackler
Sort of firefist striker. It does wall and kill it but firefist striker aims to prevent them from blocking.
Etc. But those enter the mind most clearly.
White weenie and barely boros.
Soldier of the pantheon
Dryad militant
Precinct captain
Imposing sovereign
Banisher priest
These blocks aren't irrelevant by a long shot.
Most importantly, you force your opponent to have that removal to kill it unless they want a portion of their army to not be able to take part in the attack or are ready to lose a creature each combat. 4 lightning strikes is still 4 just lightning strikes. If they have it, oh well. That's a turn they're not getting to poke though with a possibly hasty creature while saving the strike for the face. If they don't, its a pain in the neck.
Fairly key advantages over the typical wallish thing. However, returned phalanx's advantages are much less good with your ability to now play drown in sorrow.
Elite Arcanist + Triton Tactics + Phenax + any other guy.
You need at least 5 mana to play Phenax, meaning you can use Tactics to untap arcanist + wall at least 5 times the following turn.
5 Tactics is 15 extra toughness onto the Arcanist at the end of it, plus 15 toughness total on your other guy is 30 mill. Even if your other guy sucks, it's still enough. Example, Arcanist and another 1/1 (for simplicities sake):
tap 1/1 (1 milled) activate arcanist, untap both;
tap 1/3 (4) activate arcanist;
tap 1/6 (10) activate arcanist;
tap 1/9 (19) activate arcanist;
tap 1/12 (31) activate arcanist;
tap 1/15 (46) tap arcanist who is now a 1/16, total milled: 62, opponent loses on draw step.
So its a funny kind of thing and it does work but its not the most consistent, the fastest, or the safest and it doesn't use the most individually reliable pieces.
So its a funny kind of thing and it does work but its not the most consistent, the fastest, or the safest and it doesn't use the most individually reliable pieces.
of course. The alternative is Frostburn Weird, which gets it out of burn range, but doesn't have the punch to kill off things. And I say, go ahead and kill it with burn, be my guest. It's one less Lightning Strike you'll have to hit my Nightveil's with. Plus, if they are spending mana on killing it, it's mana they are not spending on another creature.
4 Frostburn Weird
2 Phenax, god of deception
1 Aethlerling
Planeswalker
4 Ashiok, nightmare weaver
3 Jace, architect of thought
1 Jace, memory adept
2 Ratchet bomb
Enchantments
3 Underworld connections
Spells
2 Bile blight
2 Ultimate price
2 Devour flesh
3 Psychic strike
3 Hero's downfall
1 Far//away
2 Opportunity
4 Temple of decieption
4 Watery Grave
9 Island
8 Swamp
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
They aren't completely pointless as they do clog up the board a bit, but sometimes they can be a bit annoying as they don't do much without Phenax out. I think the correct build here is one that can put pressure on with non-defenders but also becomes something of a beast when Phenax comes out, my list is incomplete (as I don't have full sets of certain cards yet) but would anyone care to help me with possible tweaks? I still need to test this out
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Omenspeaker
2 Wall of Frost
2 Mnemonic Wall
1 AEtherling
1 Lord of the Void
2 Phenax, God of Deception
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Bile Blight
1 Doom Blade
4 Psychic Strike
3 Far // Away
1 Psychic Intrusion
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
11 Swamp
5 Island
I have a whole playset of Bile Blight and almost a whole playset of Drown in Sorrow in my collection so I could utilize those. I was thinking that drown in sorrow wouldn't be a bad card to have as it won't kill anything I own. On top of that if we have enough high toughness creatures, aggro may try to over extend to compensate and deal with Ashiok so drown in sorrow could be pretty effective. Let's keep discussing I want to bring this archetype to game day as well and want to make sure it's as tuned as we can get it.
2 Consuming Aberration
4 Doorkeeper
4 Hover Barrier
4 Murmuring Phantasm
3 Phenax, God of Deception
4 Returned Phalanx
4 Wall of Frost
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Far // Away
1 Mind Grind
2 Pilfered Plans
3 Psychic Strike
Land
4 Temple of Deceit
11 Island
9 Swamp
2 Crypt Incursion
2 Duskmantle Guildmage
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Pithing Needle
2 Bile Blight
2 Drown in Sorrow
Cards I'm considering:
Disciple of Phenax; I don't really have a ton of black permanents but by the time I play this, looking at 2 or 3 cards may be a majority of their hand. Good utility and a decently-sized butt.
Returned Centaur; Mill, a decent butt, and enough power to get rid of most early threats.
Chronic Flooding; If you can drop it on turn two, it's either gonna mill a lot of cards or slow them down a lot. If you drop it much later than that, it's pretty insignificant. High ceiling, low floor.
Mnemonic Wall; A little high on the curve but it's hard to deny the value it provides.
I disagree about Doorkeeper. It can get the ball rolling if Phenax and it can keep working towards the end goal even if Phenax is removed from play. With Phenax on the board, he's at least milling for 4 each turn but he can potentially hit for mre than that if I have established a sizeable board presence (I admit, not extremely likely).
I do think you're right about Dissolve, though.
Contaminated Ground just doesn't really do much in this deck. Sure it can shut off some color against non-black decks but the damage it does is nearly insignificant in this deck. I'm not too worried about Sphinx's. The lifegain has little to no bearing on my win condition and the large card draw actually helps me with it.
3 Phenax, God of Deception
4 Wall of Frost
3 Nightveil Specter
4 Omenspeaker
-=Spells=-
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Dissolve
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Thoughtseize
2 Far // Away
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
-=Land=-
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
7 Swamp
6 Island
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Negate
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Dark Betrayal
3 Thoughtseize
1 Doom Blade
2 Notion Thief
2 Bile Blight
I do think that omenspeaker is better then doorkeeper, but you are correct in that it will start off the mill and you have the walls for it.
Play test it. My experience was it prevented turn twos (sometimes 3s) and a lot of people are not willing to take damage just for tapping a land at all and would simply abandon that mana.
I didn't know it was requisite to do a large sphinx! Heck, once most people realized I was playing mill they knew not to do it! Same with their Jace AOTs (I like that you have pithing needle and heros downfall in your deck though, so many decks without pithing needle!)
Welp, good luck. I think out of defender mill I am actually kind of warming up to your deck, but I always require dimir charm in my builds and have casted out consuming aberration for mirko vosk. Developing a taste for land hate.
Will you report back?
-1 Ashiok
-2 Drown in Sorrow
-1 Omenspeaker
-1 Phenax
+1 Jace, AoT
+1 Thassa
+2 Bile Blight
+1 Far/Away
Thanks for your suggestion. Could you explain your reasoning a little. Are the jace and thassa to aid in digging for phenax? I like your suggestions though. Let's keep working on this archetype. Is anyone play testing this actively? I am and would like to compare notes
1 Mind grind
I haven't got to use it. Haven't been in my hand at all. So haven't got to try it.
4 Omenspeaker
4 Hover Barrier
2 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
1 Consuming Aberration
3 Phenax, God of Deception
Planeswalkers
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Jace, Memory Adept
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Devour Flesh
Enchantment
2 Soul Ransom
Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
1 Mind Grind
Land
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
2 Dimir Guildgate
5 Island
7 Swamp
3 Mutavault
No Wall of Frost? Aggro slows down with it.
I actual prefer Hover barrier because it flys.
Murmuring Phantasm is a 0/5 for 1U Hover is a 0/6 with flying. It just blocks quite a Bit. I am never sad when I see it.
4 Phenax, God of Deception
4 Axebane Guardian
4 Gatecreeper Vine
2 Desecration Demon
2 Prophet of Kruphix
2 Sphere of Safety
2 Drown in Sorrow
4 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Chromatic Lantern
1 Simic Charm
1 Ready // Willing
2 Underworld Connections
2 Far // Away
4 Hold the Gates
2 Spear of Heliod
1 Dimir Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
3 Golgari Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
2 Ready // Willing
2 Simic Charm
1 Prophet of Kruphix
2 Pithing Needle
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Unravel the Æther
2 Bow of Nylea
Rather than focusing more on high toughness creatures inherently, this one instead uses buffs of Spear of Heliod and Hold the Gates. It's pretty crazy on colors, but it's got plenty of mana fixing to make up for that, with Axebane Guardian, Sylvan Carytid, Gatekeeper Vine, and Chromatic Lantern, as well as all the lands being some form of dual-lands. All that mana generation also helps power up Sphinx's Revelation to get everything out.