I'm going to try your Bull Whip deck. It's very close to what I've been running, so maybe I'm wasting my time with 24 lands and should just try 22.
It's funny how people don't get how dangerous Kragma Warcallers can be. Especially when there's a whip on the table already and a couple other minotaurs. They'll get hit by it, kill it and then it gets whipped back and it's like 6 extra lifelink damage for no card spent.
Mardu ruins my day all the time as well. I'm not sure what to do. I've sided in goblin and warrior token hate and that's alright, but it's just the endless removal against the minotaurs that keeps me on the back foot every single game. Games where I get the whip down are usually me just slowly falling behind as I take more damage than I get back every turn until I finally lose.
Thanks for trying out the deck. I agree highly with the Warcaller and the Whip. For opponents playing against the cows for the first time, they find it awkward playing against what they see as an "unknown deck". Based on my experiences, they tend to commit lots of mistakes, which we could exploit, but some players tend to adapt fast enough for games 2 & 3.
Mardu is indeed a pain (even after boarding) and I've never won against it before, although Jeskai and Sidisi Whip is a hard match too (but could be dealt with post-board).
Massive props to those playing this deck; it looks really fun and I love tribal.
I'd advise considering Sign in Blood or Read the Bones in sideboard or main deck to keep you ahead of the removal. I also think Hero's Downfall is almost necessary to make sure you can clear Rhino's and Coursers to make sure your guys get through.
And yeah, Whip is amazing in this deck, like most midrange decks. It's such a value engine.
Keep up the deck guys!
I've tried Sign in Blood and even Read the Bones (during RTR-Theros Times), but not in main. If I were to choose, maybe I'll pick Sign in Blood in terms of cost and speed because Read the Bones costs 3-cmc, in which the deck is already filled with lots of 3-cmc spells. I'll probably consider Hero's Downfall on the side to answer Planeswalkers. I can kill Rhinos, or even Butchers and Sidisi with a cheap Dark Betrayal (which I did a lot of times and my opponents are really surprised). As for Coursers, I got Murderous Cut or just combat tricks along with Magma Jet if they block. Opponents tend not to attack or block also whenever there is a Felhide Petrifier. And also, Thoughtseize greatly helps getting rid things in proper timing.
I'm almost done with the Minotaur Primer I'm working at. I was thinking if there is a way to merge it in this thread.
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Modern Decks:WRGThe Colors of FireGRW || CUBRAge of Ultron (Affinity - Under Construction)RBUC
Nice to see this thread kicking again. I've updated my deck too with Whip of Erebos as well, and hence calling my new list "The Bull Whip". Here is my updated list:
What I may do, is remove a Whip, Jet and Thoughtseize and add 2 Boon of Erebos and 2 Titan's Strength (as I always play 61)
I really do like the way this deck plays (on paper anyway) Should be fun for a semi-competitive FNM.
After testing on Cockatrice, the following changes are probably going to be made:
-1 Kragma Warcaller
+1 Ragemonger
-1 Fanatic of Mogis
+1 Boon of Erebos
Kinda makes sense. Actually, it makes a lot of sense. I personally don't MB SiB, but out of the board I may just replace it and test it out. Thanks for the heads up!
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I miss Fanatic of Mogis, don't you?
Well, I was going over the devotion based creatures that might fuel his fire, and I came across Rageblood Shaman, and realized they are both Minotaurs! So with that curve, it makes sense to precede it with a double red fellow in Eidolon of the Great Revel. Following that, I was thinking about the tempo play red gets by casting Hordeling Outburst and then Stoke the Flames, but what if we cast Oracle, and they let us cast a spell from our hand?
+=
Which could possibly be, an even bigger tempo play than we've been doing, paying four red to cast all three of these cards would be fantastic. (Especially if we still have a FSD on the board)
I couldn't figure out what other heavy hitter we should have in the spell slot that they wouldn't like us using Oracle on, I would imagine that casting that spell OR oracle would be not very good, so I am uncertain on the Fated Conflagration slot. But the card itself is pretty great so I included it because we're on the ground with this deck, so we need to get rid of big guys in the way.
Aside from what I already wrote on this, I actually like how the tribal lord makes the fanatic a five power creature, which makes it better on the ground versus siege rhino. Having access to Fated Conflag is also good against Siege Rhino as well.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
I feel like Oracle of Bones is a poor choice. If I were your opponent I would never let you cast spells for free. Your turn 4 play is ideally Fanatic of Mogis after you've built up a board state or the red god.
I think the rest of it is fine. It benefits from all the wrath effects in standard being slow at 5 mana, and the god allows you to continue doing damage after the fact. My favourite is Eidolon of the Great Revel, but it may be lacking in a meta where CMC 4 or greater reigns supreme.
Here is my Minotaur Devotion list, please tell me what you guys think!
Aside from what I already wrote on this, I actually like how the tribal lord makes the fanatic a five power creature, which makes it better on the ground versus siege rhino. Having access to Fated Conflag is also good against Siege Rhino as well.
Your list more resembles a Mono Red Devotion list then a Minotaur tribal deck. With that said, a mono version will not survive in today's meta. I feel that a 2 color list (B/R) is the optimal deck to play. doesn't have access to the removal that does. Also Whip of Erebos and Felhide Petrifier are auto includes in any Minotaur deck.
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I would imagine many players allowing me to cast Oracle with the two extra counters on it actually, with the tribal lord making him even bigger makes that card even better tributed. But without, all you need are some strong spells. I fully believe Fated Conflagration is the red removal spell red mages need right now, it gets rid of your siege rhino's and it sets up your next draw. I actually beat someone I respect by scrying into four Fated Conflagration draws in a row. Even though Oracle "casting spells" in a devotion deck doesn't seem synergistic, it really is a matter of playing chicken with your opponent, because as Cherry Punch said, they'll never let you cast your spells for free, and the spells you do have should hit hard like tokens+stoke, or tokens while purphoros is on the board, or a big heaving Fated Conflagration.
That being said, I can see the appeal of playing Shaman+Petrifier for the deathtouch trample effect, or the strength of the black spells.
I just have this instinct as a red mage for my spells to pack a punch because red almost never gets card advantage, and if I make a tempo play it better kill them because I know if I don't I'll run out of gas while they take over the game, and I believe that punch can be made getting so much value out of our Goblin Rabblemasters and our Fanatic of Mogis's, believe in the Fated Conflagrations my friends!
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
I want to add in 3 more Rageblood Shaman for a playset for sure. I also want to add in some amount of Gnarled Scarhide and Despise in order to have some more options on turns 1 and 2. I don't want 4 of each though because that would be excessive and weaken the deck overall I think. However, I just don't know what to remove for these additions. I'm not entirely sold on Hammer of Purporos since the Kragma Warcaller already provides haste. Whip of Erebos doesn’t come out often, but it is super helpful when it does.
The Oracle of Bones has some synergy with Flurry of Horns and Lava Axe. I’ve been in situations where if my opponent paid tribute then they would lose to combat damage (or see a crucial creature get outclassed), but if they didn’t then I’d get a couple of free minotaurs or some burn. I like the interaction and flavour that synergy brings to the table. I’d like to hear what other people think though. Under what conditions would you choose to pay tribute versus not paying it in any given game?
Fall of the Hammer is pretty good removal, especially if I have a Felhide Petrifier out. Fanatic of Mogis is a little lackluster here, but I have had him win me a game or two with his ETB burn. Felhide Spiritbinder is another one that doesn’t stand out too much, but being slightly bulkier than the other minotaurs has been helpful. I haven’t used his Inspired ability very often, but it can be powerful if it copies a Kragma Warcaller or Rageblood Shaman.
Please don't suggest anything too costly like Thoughtseize or fetch lands. I won't spend that kind of money anyway. Thanks for any suggestions.
For starters, the decktags work when you put your cards vertical:
4x Card 1
4x Card 2
3x Card 3
etc....
Now as for your suggestions:
Flurry of horns is above the curve, as is Lava Axe. The Whip is an auto include of at least 2, I run 3 and shoud be the top of your curve. You are correct by saying Fanatic of Mogis is "lackluster" It was a powerhouse when Boros Reckoner was legal in Standard, but not so much now. Kragama Warcaller is a 5cmc beast, but with Ragemonger on the field it's is a 3cmc finisher.
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Break Through The Line. Gee how convenient most of the cows have 2 power. I for am certain and know what I am picking a full playset of for my Cows deck.
You may think it has some serious anti-synergy with the minotaurs however lets point out a few of the big ones and how you can easily work around it. Ones with "When ~ enters the battlefield,..." and those with "Inspire - ..." are triggers, you respond to the trigger by paying an extra R to give it haste and unblockability for the turn. "What of Rageblood Shaman? It must have anti-synergy." Well it depends on when you cast the Rageblood Shaman. If you have an extra bit of red mana to spend, you can buff, cast rageblood, then sneak past. Think of BTTL as a picky mana sink that only accepts R.
This actually synergies well with Kragma Warcaller as each of your 2/3 minotaurs can get a buff from BTTL as long as you got R mana to spend then you swing with each minotaur that is now a 4/3 or 6/3 in Kragma Butcher's case. Speaking of butcher, BTTL is a synergy-win with our friend Kragma Butcher as it will allow him to get inspired each time. Again, you just respond to the inspired trigger by paying R and granting him the buff from BTTL.
Why do I like Break Through The Line so much? It finally gives me a reason to take out the full playset of Prowler's Helm I have been running. Strange choice maybe, but being able to bypass the "blocking" step of combat is a must have in my book as a means of evasion is a game winning way. I have won my share of games by having a minotaur being able to sneak past the large creatures. I have also been able to "tip-toe" across the battlefield when it is swamped by numerous small creatures.
Stuff like Rageblood Shaman and Felhide Petrifier still strike me as "must-haves" even if you did run Break Through The Line. As you may not get it every game and you may not get BTTL early on which is why its good to have a contingency plan.
For starters, the decktags work when you put your cards vertical:
4x Card 1
4x Card 2
3x Card 3
etc....
Now as for your suggestions: Flurry of horns is above the curve, as is Lava Axe. The Whip is an auto include of at least 2, I run 3 and shoud be the top of your curve.
Thanks, that fixed the deck tag. The official topic which shows how to use deck tags certainly shows putting the cards horizontally, not vertically, so that's why I was doing it that way.
I have a couple of questions though. Could you explain why the bolded part above matters really? In playing this deck, I have no problems casting Lava Axe or Flurry of Horns end game. The Lava Axe is particularly helpful for finishing off an opponent who has gotten around to setting up a defense with stronger creatures. Lava Axe has also been helpful against planeswalkers.
I only have 1 Whip of Erebos because that's all I have of it. I think two would be best, but I'm probably not going to go out of my way to get another. The one I got was out of a lucky (and free) booster. I probably wouldn't spend $3-5 for a single card honestly.
For starters, the decktags work when you put your cards vertical:
4x Card 1
4x Card 2
3x Card 3
etc....
Now as for your suggestions: Flurry of horns is above the curve, as is Lava Axe. The Whip is an auto include of at least 2, I run 3 and shoud be the top of your curve.
Thanks, that fixed the deck tag. The official topic which shows how to use deck tags certainly shows putting the cards horizontally, not vertically, so that's why I was doing it that way.
I have a couple of questions though. Could you explain why the bolded part above matters really? In playing this deck, I have no problems casting Lava Axe or Flurry of Horns end game. The Lava Axe is particularly helpful for finishing off an opponent who has gotten around to setting up a defense with stronger creatures. Lava Axe has also been helpful against planeswalkers.
I only have 1 Whip of Erebos because that's all I have of it. I think two would be best, but I'm probably not going to go out of my way to get another. The one I got was out of a lucky (and free) booster. I probably wouldn't spend $3-5 for a single card honestly.
Because Flurry of Horns and Lava Axe cost 5 mana. Kragma Warcaller gets a free pass because Minotaur/Cow Decks typically run Ragemonger which makes the card cost BR for a reduced cost of 3 instead. The lower your mana curve the more consistent it becomes. As the one true inconsistency that can ever make your deck fall flat on its face is being unable to reach its the peak of its curve which is usually caused by "mana drought" meaning you don't get your lands on schedule and thus your deck falls behind meaning it has a higher chance of losing.
If you run 1x of a card, you might as well run zero. You have a lower probability of fishing up a Whip of Erebos which means when you need it most you are relying on a 7:60 chance of it being one of the cards in your opening hand and a 1:53 chance in subsequent draws. The only way I could get away with several 1x cards was with a scry heavy deck.
You may want to cut out the other two Flurry of Horns from the mainboard. What you can do however is store the Flurries in your sideboard. As the purpose of a sideboard is in essence a "utility-belt" in which on the 2nd game you can take out certain cards from the mainboard and replace them with certain cards from the sideboard to improve your chances in a match.
In an aggro deck, unless you have ways to vomit mana, you really want to keep your CMC at 4 or below. Lava Axe & Flurry of Horns are both at 5, hence above the curve. But if they are working for you, then by all means play them.
The Ragebloods, Petrifiers, Ragemongers and Scarhides should all be 4-0f's. The rest of the deck can be fiddled with.
Tonight my all star in 2 games was Mogis's Marauder. Although not a Minotaur, he just wins games. I made a late decision to add them in place of Deathbellow Raider
In an aggro deck, unless you have ways to vomit mana, you really want to keep your CMC at 4 or below. Lava Axe & Flurry of Horns are both at 5, hence above the curve. But if they are working for you, then by all means play them.
What I meant earlier was how could it possibly matter for a person to have a few cards over the curve? By definition everyone is going to have some cards in their deck that are above their average cmc for the deck. That's just how averages work. It reminds me of a headline I once saw that said, "50% of schools in America are below average." *facepalm
But, I can see how keeping a lower average overall will help the tempo of the deck. That's why I wanted to throw in more Gnarled Scarhide and Despise. That gives me more options turn 1/2. I have the 2-drop minotaurs too (Deathbellow Raider & Felhide Brawler) but I have a hard time justifying their use. I can never imagine a situation where I'd actually activate Deathbellow's regen for 3 mana. The whole point of him is to get out as a 2-drop, and then I plan on using future mana for more minotaurs. Felhide Brawler isn't very stellar with only 2 toughness too. So both 2-drop minotaurs just come with extra baggage.
Still I'd be interested to hear opinions on Oracle of Bones. Would people be more apt to pay tribute or not, and what factors would affect your decisions? I know one person above mentioned that they would never give their opponent the chance to cast things for free.
What I meant earlier was how could it possibly matter for a person to have a few cards over the curve? By definition everyone is going to have some cards in their deck that are above their average cmc for the deck. That's just how averages work. It reminds me of a headline I once saw that said, "50% of schools in America are below average." *facepalm
I don't but that's just the way I built my deck. I built my deck so that 4cmc is the "top" of the curve. So, if I'm holding a 5cmc spell/creature and I'm stuck on 3-4 mana, it's essentially a dead card. You are correct that it's how averages work, but you don't want to leave it up to "averages" You want your deck to perform better than average on a consistant basis.
But, I can see how keeping a lower average overall will help the tempo of the deck. That's why I wanted to throw in more Gnarled Scarhide and Despise. That gives me more options turn 1/2. I have the 2-drop minotaurs too (Deathbellow Raider & Felhide Brawler) but I have a hard time justifying their use. I can never imagine a situation where I'd actually activate Deathbellow's regen for 3 mana. The whole point of him is to get out as a 2-drop, and then I plan on using future mana for more minotaurs. Felhide Brawler isn't very stellar with only 2 toughness too. So both 2-drop minotaurs just come with extra baggage.
You usually wouldn't use the regen, and just looking at Felhide & Deathbellow they are just "vanilla" creatures. But look at this:
T1 Scarhide
T2 Deathbellow swing for 2
T3 Rageblood, swing for 6
So, by T3 you just smacked your opponent for 45% of his life total. A 2/2 for 2 is pretty good in a tribal deck.
Still I'd be interested to hear opinions on Oracle of Bones. Would people be more apt to pay tribute or not, and what factors would affect your decisions? I know one person above mentioned that they would never give their opponent the chance to cast things for free.
Thank you all for the suggestions so far.
I don't feel the card is that good. Even if the tribute is paid, it's basically a vanilla 5/3 without evasion. Is it terrible? No, not in the least, but there are better options.
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But, I can see how keeping a lower average overall will help the tempo of the deck. That's why I wanted to throw in more Gnarled Scarhide and Despise. That gives me more options turn 1/2. I have the 2-drop minotaurs too (Deathbellow Raider & Felhide Brawler) but I have a hard time justifying their use. I can never imagine a situation where I'd actually activate Deathbellow's regen for 3 mana. The whole point of him is to get out as a 2-drop, and then I plan on using future mana for more minotaurs. Felhide Brawler isn't very stellar with only 2 toughness too. So both 2-drop minotaurs just come with extra baggage.
Felhide Brawler is bad because you get a bear that relies on another minotaur. Deathbellow Raider seems great first, 2 mana for a 2/3 that can regenerate and attacks each turn if able. I had that raider die more times than I can remember as you end up in one of four situations.
A) You can regenerate him and you cast more minotaurs. (You are not in a mana drought)
B) You can regenerate him but you couldn't cast more minotaurs. (Mana Hogging)
C) You can't regenerate him but you can cast more minotaurs. (Mana drought or avoiding mana hogs)
D) You can't regenerate him and you can't cast more minotaurs. (Mana drought)
Your best off replacing them with other cards.
Still I'd be interested to hear opinions on Oracle of Bones. Would people be more apt to pay tribute or not, and what factors would affect your decisions? I know one person above mentioned that they would never give their opponent the chance to cast things for free.
Thank you all for the suggestions so far.
Oracle of Bones, better known amongst my friends as Schrodinger's Minotaur. Tribute is just like punisher, it can potentially blow up in your face. It partially relies on having a mind game with your opponent as you are trying to make your opponent take the "lesser poison". In this case the "lesser poison" is allowing you to cast an instant or sorcery for free instead of you having a 5/3 with haste, vice versa.
On a case-by-case basis, the tribute will usually not be payed by your opponent in the early game to hopefully minimize the damage that they will take. However there are certain corner cases like Pharagax Giant in which tribute will likely be payed so as to avoid taking damage immediately.
What I meant earlier was how could it possibly matter for a person to have a few cards over the curve? By definition everyone is going to have some cards in their deck that are above their average cmc for the deck. That's just how averages work. It reminds me of a headline I once saw that said, "50% of schools in America are below average." *facepalm
But, I can see how keeping a lower average overall will help the tempo of the deck. That's why I wanted to throw in more Gnarled Scarhide and Despise. That gives me more options turn 1/2. I have the 2-drop minotaurs too (Deathbellow Raider & Felhide Brawler) but I have a hard time justifying their use. I can never imagine a situation where I'd actually activate Deathbellow's regen for 3 mana. The whole point of him is to get out as a 2-drop, and then I plan on using future mana for more minotaurs. Felhide Brawler isn't very stellar with only 2 toughness too. So both 2-drop minotaurs just come with extra baggage.
Still I'd be interested to hear opinions on Oracle of Bones. Would people be more apt to pay tribute or not, and what factors would affect your decisions? I know one person above mentioned that they would never give their opponent the chance to cast things for free.
Thank you all for the suggestions so far.
Well the point of saying a card is "above the curve" is a way of saying it is too expensive for the deck, not that it does not fit the average cmc. Your mana curve is the organization of cost and allocation of resources (mana, deck slots, etc.). For an aggressive deck that wants to finish the game quickly 5 mana is a large investment. If you are planning for some reach when there are board stalls then cheaper or efficient burn, such as Stoke the Flames or Collateral Damage, is what you'd want. But like Duxx said, if you have no problems then continue using what you've got.
I would still include your vanilla 2-drop minotaurs simply because they are cows. Ragemonger is a center piece of the deck that allows you to play each of them for only 1 mana, and they benefit from the buffs provided byyourlords. Even the lowly Gnarled Scarhide becomes a zero cost 5/1 deathtouch trampler with haste when you have all of your buff aligned. I wouldn't underestimate them.
I will reiterate that my problem with Oracle of Bones is that your opponent gets to choose what your 'taur can do. What if you have no more cards in hand when you cast it? Your opponent will have no problem saying you can cast something else for free from your hand. Perhaps your hand is full of cards you would like to cast, but your opponent does not let you. Then you have a 5/3, at the least, with haste! Great! But the reason your opponent did that was because they were going to remove it. I feel that it is a wasteful creature, being expensive and not doing anything to buff your other minotaurs. The deck wants to be kind of like Slivers, where you go wide with key pieces buffing everything else. The card was okay in limited, but bad in constructed where consistency is what you want the most.
What do people think about the new RBdragon? I know it suffers from the same weakness as the above mentioned cards, being expensive, but it buffs all your minotaurs on attack and gives us a true evasive creature. I think the Dash mechanic is key here, as you usually want to close games out on ~T5. 5 power in the air hasted is unheard of in the meta right now. Perhaps a one-of?
What do people think about the new RBdragon? I know it suffers from the same weakness as the above mentioned cards, being expensive, but it buffs all your minotaurs on attack and gives us a true evasive creature. I think the Dash mechanic is key here, as you usually want to close games out on ~T5. 5 power in the air hasted is unheard of in the meta right now. Perhaps a one-of?
With the exception of flying, Dictate of the Twin Gods serves the same purpose as this new dragon. When I first saw this dragon I thought it would be a great addition too. Dictate can be flashed in as a surprise finisher, almost better than the dragon to me.
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury. Eh I would say a 3.5 / 5 when it comes to Cows. If Kolaghan also boosted toughness she would be more a 4:5 for me. Collateral Damage I feel maybe is worth a look though for Cows.
EDIT:Arcbond also looks a pretty cool card for cows.
Might actually be better with 25 lands. Basically, the idea is to get the most two power value you can while maximizing resistance to anger and drown. It might be workable, though Alesha is very squishy.
The first round was against a W/U Elspeth soldier token deck. I destroyed it in the first game but then they sideboarded in tons of exile and removal for the next two games. Second round was against a red deck running dragons, burn, and goblin rabblemaster. I had terrible draws and lost twice in a row to flying dragons. The 3rd-5th rounds I was up against W/U Heroic decks running things like Hero of Iroas with tons of pumps/protection instants to trigger heroic. I cleaned out the 3rd and 4th rounds, but then lost twice to a flyer in round 5.
What options do we have against flyers? I was hoping to rely on Felhide Petrifier and Fall of the Hammer to take care of them, but it just isn't consistent or fast enough. I didn't feel horribly outclassed in any of my matches (except the last two games of the first round), but things just didn't go quite right to win.
P.S. Elspeth, Sun's Champion's +1 that puts three 1/1 soldier token onto the battlefield is broken (that should be a minus ability). I need more Bile Blight or something to deal with that crap.
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Thanks for trying out the deck. I agree highly with the Warcaller and the Whip. For opponents playing against the cows for the first time, they find it awkward playing against what they see as an "unknown deck". Based on my experiences, they tend to commit lots of mistakes, which we could exploit, but some players tend to adapt fast enough for games 2 & 3.
Mardu is indeed a pain (even after boarding) and I've never won against it before, although Jeskai and Sidisi Whip is a hard match too (but could be dealt with post-board).
I've tried Sign in Blood and even Read the Bones (during RTR-Theros Times), but not in main. If I were to choose, maybe I'll pick Sign in Blood in terms of cost and speed because Read the Bones costs 3-cmc, in which the deck is already filled with lots of 3-cmc spells. I'll probably consider Hero's Downfall on the side to answer Planeswalkers. I can kill Rhinos, or even Butchers and Sidisi with a cheap Dark Betrayal (which I did a lot of times and my opponents are really surprised). As for Coursers, I got Murderous Cut or just combat tricks along with Magma Jet if they block. Opponents tend not to attack or block also whenever there is a Felhide Petrifier. And also, Thoughtseize greatly helps getting rid things in proper timing.
I'm almost done with the Minotaur Primer I'm working at. I was thinking if there is a way to merge it in this thread.
Nice deck, I plan on sleeving this up for FNM.
I really wish some of the cards below had a spot in the 75:
- Magma Spray
- Rouse the Mob
- Hammerhand
- Boon of Erebos
- Felhide Spiritbinder
- Kragma Butcher
- Anger of the Gods
- Coordinated Assult
- Titan's Strength
What I may do, is remove a Whip, Jet and Thoughtseize and add 2 Boon of Erebos and 2 Titan's Strength (as I always play 61)I really do like the way this deck plays (on paper anyway) Should be fun for a semi-competitive FNM.
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4x Deathbellow Raider
4x Felhide Brawler
4x Felhide Petrifier
4x Rageblood Shaman
4x Gnarled Scarhide
3x Kragma Warcaller
3x Ragemonger
1x Mogis, God of Slaughter
1x Fanatic of Mogis
2x Thoughtseize
2x Boon of Erebos
2x Whip of Erebos
Land (22)
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Temple of Malice
4x Bloodfell Caves
4x Swamp
6x Mountain
1x Erebos, God of the Dead or Silence the Believers
4x Bile Blight
2x Despise
3x Lightning Strike
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Crippling Blight
After testing on Cockatrice, the following changes are probably going to be made:
-1 Kragma Warcaller
+1 Ragemonger
-1 Fanatic of Mogis
+1 Boon of Erebos
Thoughts, or did ya'll stop reading this thread?
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With a Whip of Erebos in play you could be discarding potential reanimate targets such as Kragma Warcaller. Sign in Blood can sometimes be too difficult as BB.
Kinda makes sense. Actually, it makes a lot of sense. I personally don't MB SiB, but out of the board I may just replace it and test it out. Thanks for the heads up!
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Aside from what I already wrote on this, I actually like how the tribal lord makes the fanatic a five power creature, which makes it better on the ground versus siege rhino. Having access to Fated Conflag is also good against Siege Rhino as well.
I think the rest of it is fine. It benefits from all the wrath effects in standard being slow at 5 mana, and the god allows you to continue doing damage after the fact. My favourite is Eidolon of the Great Revel, but it may be lacking in a meta where CMC 4 or greater reigns supreme.
Your list more resembles a Mono Red Devotion list then a Minotaur tribal deck. With that said, a mono version will not survive in today's meta. I feel that a 2 color list (B/R) is the optimal deck to play. doesn't have access to the removal that does. Also Whip of Erebos and Felhide Petrifier are auto includes in any Minotaur deck.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
That being said, I can see the appeal of playing Shaman+Petrifier for the deathtouch trample effect, or the strength of the black spells.
I just have this instinct as a red mage for my spells to pack a punch because red almost never gets card advantage, and if I make a tempo play it better kill them because I know if I don't I'll run out of gas while they take over the game, and I believe that punch can be made getting so much value out of our Goblin Rabblemasters and our Fanatic of Mogis's, believe in the Fated Conflagrations my friends!
2 Felhide Spiritbinder
4 Ragemonger
4 Felhide Petrifier
4 Kragma Warcaller
4 Oracle of Bones
2 Fanatic of Mogis
1 Rageblood Shaman
1 Gnarled Scarhide
2 Stab Wound
2 Despise
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Flurry of Horns
2 Fall of the Hammer
2 Lava Axe
1 Dictate of the Twin Gods
4 Bloodfell Caves
8 Swamp
12 Mountain
I want to add in 3 more Rageblood Shaman for a playset for sure. I also want to add in some amount of Gnarled Scarhide and Despise in order to have some more options on turns 1 and 2. I don't want 4 of each though because that would be excessive and weaken the deck overall I think. However, I just don't know what to remove for these additions. I'm not entirely sold on Hammer of Purporos since the Kragma Warcaller already provides haste. Whip of Erebos doesn’t come out often, but it is super helpful when it does.
The Oracle of Bones has some synergy with Flurry of Horns and Lava Axe. I’ve been in situations where if my opponent paid tribute then they would lose to combat damage (or see a crucial creature get outclassed), but if they didn’t then I’d get a couple of free minotaurs or some burn. I like the interaction and flavour that synergy brings to the table. I’d like to hear what other people think though. Under what conditions would you choose to pay tribute versus not paying it in any given game?
Fall of the Hammer is pretty good removal, especially if I have a Felhide Petrifier out. Fanatic of Mogis is a little lackluster here, but I have had him win me a game or two with his ETB burn. Felhide Spiritbinder is another one that doesn’t stand out too much, but being slightly bulkier than the other minotaurs has been helpful. I haven’t used his Inspired ability very often, but it can be powerful if it copies a Kragma Warcaller or Rageblood Shaman.
Please don't suggest anything too costly like Thoughtseize or fetch lands. I won't spend that kind of money anyway. Thanks for any suggestions.
4x Card 1
4x Card 2
3x Card 3
etc....
Now as for your suggestions:
Flurry of horns is above the curve, as is Lava Axe. The Whip is an auto include of at least 2, I run 3 and shoud be the top of your curve. You are correct by saying Fanatic of Mogis is "lackluster" It was a powerhouse when Boros Reckoner was legal in Standard, but not so much now. Kragama Warcaller is a 5cmc beast, but with Ragemonger on the field it's is a 3cmc finisher.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
You may think it has some serious anti-synergy with the minotaurs however lets point out a few of the big ones and how you can easily work around it. Ones with "When ~ enters the battlefield,..." and those with "Inspire - ..." are triggers, you respond to the trigger by paying an extra R to give it haste and unblockability for the turn. "What of Rageblood Shaman? It must have anti-synergy." Well it depends on when you cast the Rageblood Shaman. If you have an extra bit of red mana to spend, you can buff, cast rageblood, then sneak past. Think of BTTL as a picky mana sink that only accepts R.
This actually synergies well with Kragma Warcaller as each of your 2/3 minotaurs can get a buff from BTTL as long as you got R mana to spend then you swing with each minotaur that is now a 4/3 or 6/3 in Kragma Butcher's case. Speaking of butcher, BTTL is a synergy-win with our friend Kragma Butcher as it will allow him to get inspired each time. Again, you just respond to the inspired trigger by paying R and granting him the buff from BTTL.
Why do I like Break Through The Line so much? It finally gives me a reason to take out the full playset of Prowler's Helm I have been running. Strange choice maybe, but being able to bypass the "blocking" step of combat is a must have in my book as a means of evasion is a game winning way. I have won my share of games by having a minotaur being able to sneak past the large creatures. I have also been able to "tip-toe" across the battlefield when it is swamped by numerous small creatures.
Stuff like Rageblood Shaman and Felhide Petrifier still strike me as "must-haves" even if you did run Break Through The Line. As you may not get it every game and you may not get BTTL early on which is why its good to have a contingency plan.
Thanks, that fixed the deck tag. The official topic which shows how to use deck tags certainly shows putting the cards horizontally, not vertically, so that's why I was doing it that way.
I have a couple of questions though. Could you explain why the bolded part above matters really? In playing this deck, I have no problems casting Lava Axe or Flurry of Horns end game. The Lava Axe is particularly helpful for finishing off an opponent who has gotten around to setting up a defense with stronger creatures. Lava Axe has also been helpful against planeswalkers.
I only have 1 Whip of Erebos because that's all I have of it. I think two would be best, but I'm probably not going to go out of my way to get another. The one I got was out of a lucky (and free) booster. I probably wouldn't spend $3-5 for a single card honestly.
So I was thinking of adding in 3 Rageblood Shaman, 2 Gnarled Scarhide, and 1 Despise. I'll probably take out 2 Fanatic of Mogis, 1 Flurry of Horns, and 1 Hammer of Purphoros. I need to remove two other cards, but I'm not sure what. Perhaps 2 Oracle of Bones?
Because Flurry of Horns and Lava Axe cost 5 mana. Kragma Warcaller gets a free pass because Minotaur/Cow Decks typically run Ragemonger which makes the card cost BR for a reduced cost of 3 instead. The lower your mana curve the more consistent it becomes. As the one true inconsistency that can ever make your deck fall flat on its face is being unable to reach its the peak of its curve which is usually caused by "mana drought" meaning you don't get your lands on schedule and thus your deck falls behind meaning it has a higher chance of losing.
If you run 1x of a card, you might as well run zero. You have a lower probability of fishing up a Whip of Erebos which means when you need it most you are relying on a 7:60 chance of it being one of the cards in your opening hand and a 1:53 chance in subsequent draws. The only way I could get away with several 1x cards was with a scry heavy deck.
You may want to cut out the other two Flurry of Horns from the mainboard. What you can do however is store the Flurries in your sideboard. As the purpose of a sideboard is in essence a "utility-belt" in which on the 2nd game you can take out certain cards from the mainboard and replace them with certain cards from the sideboard to improve your chances in a match.
The Ragebloods, Petrifiers, Ragemongers and Scarhides should all be 4-0f's. The rest of the deck can be fiddled with.
Tonight my all star in 2 games was Mogis's Marauder. Although not a Minotaur, he just wins games. I made a late decision to add them in place of Deathbellow Raider
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
What I meant earlier was how could it possibly matter for a person to have a few cards over the curve? By definition everyone is going to have some cards in their deck that are above their average cmc for the deck. That's just how averages work. It reminds me of a headline I once saw that said, "50% of schools in America are below average." *facepalm
But, I can see how keeping a lower average overall will help the tempo of the deck. That's why I wanted to throw in more Gnarled Scarhide and Despise. That gives me more options turn 1/2. I have the 2-drop minotaurs too (Deathbellow Raider & Felhide Brawler) but I have a hard time justifying their use. I can never imagine a situation where I'd actually activate Deathbellow's regen for 3 mana. The whole point of him is to get out as a 2-drop, and then I plan on using future mana for more minotaurs. Felhide Brawler isn't very stellar with only 2 toughness too. So both 2-drop minotaurs just come with extra baggage.
Still I'd be interested to hear opinions on Oracle of Bones. Would people be more apt to pay tribute or not, and what factors would affect your decisions? I know one person above mentioned that they would never give their opponent the chance to cast things for free.
Thank you all for the suggestions so far.
I don't but that's just the way I built my deck. I built my deck so that 4cmc is the "top" of the curve. So, if I'm holding a 5cmc spell/creature and I'm stuck on 3-4 mana, it's essentially a dead card. You are correct that it's how averages work, but you don't want to leave it up to "averages" You want your deck to perform better than average on a consistant basis.
You usually wouldn't use the regen, and just looking at Felhide & Deathbellow they are just "vanilla" creatures. But look at this:
T1 Scarhide
T2 Deathbellow swing for 2
T3 Rageblood, swing for 6
So, by T3 you just smacked your opponent for 45% of his life total. A 2/2 for 2 is pretty good in a tribal deck.
I don't feel the card is that good. Even if the tribute is paid, it's basically a vanilla 5/3 without evasion. Is it terrible? No, not in the least, but there are better options.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Felhide Brawler is bad because you get a bear that relies on another minotaur. Deathbellow Raider seems great first, 2 mana for a 2/3 that can regenerate and attacks each turn if able. I had that raider die more times than I can remember as you end up in one of four situations.
A) You can regenerate him and you cast more minotaurs. (You are not in a mana drought)
B) You can regenerate him but you couldn't cast more minotaurs. (Mana Hogging)
C) You can't regenerate him but you can cast more minotaurs. (Mana drought or avoiding mana hogs)
D) You can't regenerate him and you can't cast more minotaurs. (Mana drought)
Your best off replacing them with other cards.
Oracle of Bones, better known amongst my friends as Schrodinger's Minotaur. Tribute is just like punisher, it can potentially blow up in your face. It partially relies on having a mind game with your opponent as you are trying to make your opponent take the "lesser poison". In this case the "lesser poison" is allowing you to cast an instant or sorcery for free instead of you having a 5/3 with haste, vice versa.
On a case-by-case basis, the tribute will usually not be payed by your opponent in the early game to hopefully minimize the damage that they will take. However there are certain corner cases like Pharagax Giant in which tribute will likely be payed so as to avoid taking damage immediately.
Well the point of saying a card is "above the curve" is a way of saying it is too expensive for the deck, not that it does not fit the average cmc. Your mana curve is the organization of cost and allocation of resources (mana, deck slots, etc.). For an aggressive deck that wants to finish the game quickly 5 mana is a large investment. If you are planning for some reach when there are board stalls then cheaper or efficient burn, such as Stoke the Flames or Collateral Damage, is what you'd want. But like Duxx said, if you have no problems then continue using what you've got.
I would still include your vanilla 2-drop minotaurs simply because they are cows. Ragemonger is a center piece of the deck that allows you to play each of them for only 1 mana, and they benefit from the buffs provided by your lords. Even the lowly Gnarled Scarhide becomes a zero cost 5/1 deathtouch trampler with haste when you have all of your buff aligned. I wouldn't underestimate them.
I will reiterate that my problem with Oracle of Bones is that your opponent gets to choose what your 'taur can do. What if you have no more cards in hand when you cast it? Your opponent will have no problem saying you can cast something else for free from your hand. Perhaps your hand is full of cards you would like to cast, but your opponent does not let you. Then you have a 5/3, at the least, with haste! Great! But the reason your opponent did that was because they were going to remove it. I feel that it is a wasteful creature, being expensive and not doing anything to buff your other minotaurs. The deck wants to be kind of like Slivers, where you go wide with key pieces buffing everything else. The card was okay in limited, but bad in constructed where consistency is what you want the most.
What do people think about the new RB dragon? I know it suffers from the same weakness as the above mentioned cards, being expensive, but it buffs all your minotaurs on attack and gives us a true evasive creature. I think the Dash mechanic is key here, as you usually want to close games out on ~T5. 5 power in the air hasted is unheard of in the meta right now. Perhaps a one-of?
With the exception of flying, Dictate of the Twin Gods serves the same purpose as this new dragon. When I first saw this dragon I thought it would be a great addition too. Dictate can be flashed in as a surprise finisher, almost better than the dragon to me.
Collateral Damage I feel maybe is worth a look though for Cows.
EDIT: Arcbond also looks a pretty cool card for cows.
3 Alesha, Who Smiles At Death
4 Gnarled Scarhide
2 Felhide Brawler
4 Deathbellow Raider
4 Ragemonger
4 Kragma Warcaller
4 Rageblood Shaman
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
//Spells
4 Hero's Downfall
//Lands
4 Temple of Malice
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bloodfell Caves
1 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yowgmoth
8 Mountain
4 Swamp
Might actually be better with 25 lands. Basically, the idea is to get the most two power value you can while maximizing resistance to anger and drown. It might be workable, though Alesha is very squishy.
Keep throwing ideas guys and see if we could make the cows even more competitive in FRF.
4 Bloodfell Caves
12 Mountain
8 Swamp
Enchantments & Artifacts (5)
2 Stab Wound
1 Obelisk of Urd
1 Dictate of the Twin Gods
1 Whip of Erebos
Instants & Sorceries (7)
3 Despise
2 Fall of the Hammer
2 Lava Axe
4 Rageblood Shaman
4 Ragemonger
4 Kragma Warcaller
4 Felhide Petrifier
4 Gnarled Scarhide
2 Felhide Spiritbinder
2 Oracle of Bones
2 Stab Wound
2 Dark Betrayal
1 Bile Blight
1 Satry Firedancer
1 Magma Jet
2 Oracle of Bones
2 Flurry of Horns
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
3 Lightning Strike
The first round was against a W/U Elspeth soldier token deck. I destroyed it in the first game but then they sideboarded in tons of exile and removal for the next two games. Second round was against a red deck running dragons, burn, and goblin rabblemaster. I had terrible draws and lost twice in a row to flying dragons. The 3rd-5th rounds I was up against W/U Heroic decks running things like Hero of Iroas with tons of pumps/protection instants to trigger heroic. I cleaned out the 3rd and 4th rounds, but then lost twice to a flyer in round 5.
What options do we have against flyers? I was hoping to rely on Felhide Petrifier and Fall of the Hammer to take care of them, but it just isn't consistent or fast enough. I didn't feel horribly outclassed in any of my matches (except the last two games of the first round), but things just didn't go quite right to win.
P.S. Elspeth, Sun's Champion's +1 that puts three 1/1 soldier token onto the battlefield is broken (that should be a minus ability). I need more Bile Blight or something to deal with that crap.