@LeoninKha not aggro but aggro META version of this deck I meant. It's like 70% of boroses, rdw, monogreen and selesnaya. Just single controls U/W and mono black. Also single Gruul.
@LeoninKha not aggro but aggro META version of this deck I meant. It's like 70% of boroses, rdw, monogreen and selesnaya. Just single controls U/W and mono black. Also single Gruul.
What would you say?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say...
If you're saying that your meta is infested by aggro, then I stand by my list with Experiment Ones, as it destroys Monored and has like a 50/50 match against Boros.
It also obliterates anything like White Weenie (Orzhov aggro, Esper Aggro)
Just for the hell of it, I ran my list against a gauntlet featuring Mono-B and Mono-U Devotion, Azorius Control, Gruul Midrange, and Selesnya Aggro. Best of 3 matches against each versus an AI opponent with no sideboards. Not the greatest way to test, but it should give at least some idea of how my deck matches up to the tier 1 decks.
Azorius Control(2-0, 1-2, 2-1)
Elspeth is a nightmare for my list. If I don't have enough gas to push through a win in one turn with a Rift, then I'm pretty much doomed. Her -3 absolutely wrecks me. I still won the match, but it's against an AI so I would expect to. Countermagic was my best defense, and I got some serious blowouts by casting an overloaded Rift EOT when they had multiple detention spheres on the board. I likely would have been defeated by a stronger opponent
Mono-B Devotion(2-0,2-0)
I steamrolled both matches. The AI wasn't very good with this deck, but it still felt like they didn't have enough answers to deal with my threats. Rift is kind of terrible versus Merchant, but I was rarely low enough on life for that to become relevant and usually if I was overloading a Rift, I was going for the win next turn.
Mono-U Devotion(2-0,0-2,1-2)
Both games in match 1 I barely squeaked out with a win thanks to Aetherling being a house. I had to concede game 1 of the second match thanks to MTG Forge being stupid when I try to have it tap mana for me. Game 2 a Tidebinder hit my 7/7 Polukranos on the critical turn. It seems like my wins against this deck are purely based on me getting Aetherling out before they can kill me with Thassa or Master of the Waves. Also, Bident of Thassa is a menace. Honestly, this is a terrible matchup for me
Selesnya Aggro(2-1,0-2, 2-1)
Game 1 match 1 was close with me again squeaking by with Aetherling. Game 2 they curved out perfectly and crushed me. Game 3 was the opposite. I won with Experiment Ones, Scavenging Oozes, and a single Prophet. Match 2 they got off to fast starts both games while I didn't. Match 3 I had to mull down to 4 and 5. Managed to pull out one win thanks to a timely Rift and another to the old Biomancer-Biomancer-Biomancer play then dropping two 16/17 Prophets. This matchup seems like a coinflip
Gruul Midrange(1-2, 2-1, 2-1)
Stormbreath Dragon absolutely wrecks me. There is nothing I can do about it besides bounce it and hope for a counterspell. However, it's also the only really scary card in their deck besides Mizzium Mortars.
All in all, the AI opponent was not that great, so I'm pretty sure I got about 1-2 free wins per matchup on average. However, what I saw I still did not like. The only deck I feel confident against is Mono-B (which is nice). Mono-U is terrifying (and the most popular deck in the format). Selesnya and Gruul are a crapshoot at best. UW Control isn't a terrible matchup, but it's definitely not a favorable one.
Granted, these are all tier 1 decks right now. I took the lists from the top 5 at the last SCG Open. I need to find a way to squeeze some more interaction into this deck so I'm not so susceptible to getting blown out by single cards. I think Simic Charm is going to end up finding a way into this deck. I'm also going to be looking at Curse of Swine, Rapid Hybridization, and Swan Song as I have a few different ways of dealing with those tokens and I'm in need of some real removal
edit: Also, my mana kind of sucks. I found a lot of games where I was all green needing blue or all blue needing green. I need to figure that out.
Huh, I guess that's why I like flyers, they give you a much better game against most decks (especially mono-blue), as it can be difficult to close games now that everyone uses so many creatures.
Why don't you try out Prognostic Sphinx?, I think you're gonna like it. Once it gets going, it can really take the game over (scry out all those useless mana-dorks, find what you need and get damage through).
Huh, I guess that's why I like flyers, they give you a much better game against most decks (especially mono-blue), as it can be difficult to close games now that everyone uses so many creatures.
Why don't you try out Prognostic Sphinx?, I think you're gonna like it. Once it gets going, it can really take the game over (scry out all those useless mana-dorks, find what you need and get damage through).
I might try Sphinx. Scry is quite useful mid-late game in this deck. I'm also considering throwing Horizon Chimera back in. I find Bow of Nylea pretty useful for the mono-u matchup. It also works nicely for pinging down Swan Song tokens. For now, I've thrown in some more board interaction and I threw together a sideboard (still working on it). Here's my latest deck list:
I'm of the opinion that Cyclonic rift is the only instant or sorcery we need then just run a split of 2 jace and 2 garruk. Rest is creatures.
Jace and Garruk alongside omenspeakers and Prognostic Sphinx really keep our gas pedal down without ever having to let up.
I'm not a huge fan of either in this deck. I prefer Urban Evolution just for the raw drawing + acceleration. Garruk is the one I would consider of the two, but I haven't tested it enough. I'm not sure it would help against our weakest matchups
I'm not a huge fan of either in this deck. I prefer Urban Evolution just for the raw drawing + acceleration. Garruk is the one I would consider of the two, but I haven't tested it enough. I'm not sure it would help against our weakest matchups
So you haven't tested either of the two?
Why not?
Urban Evolution Is in no way better than Garruk. Jace helps this decks worst matchup by a lot. You can drop a turn 3 jace against aggro and almost laugh. Furthermore Urban Evolution doesn't accelerate anything. It simply allows you to play an extra land. The card still costs 5 mana to play.
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Urban Evolution Is in no way better than Garruk. Jace helps this decks worst matchup by a lot. You can drop a turn 3 jace against aggro and almost laugh. Furthermore Urban Evolution doesn't accelerate anything. It simply allows you to play an extra land. The card still costs 5 mana to play.
I've tested both, but they haven't done much for me. Mono-U is by far the worst matchup for this deck. Unless you can get Jace down turn 3, he comes down too late to be helpful and either gets wiped out immediately or ignored if they're close enough to killing us.
Garruk doesn't actually affect the board unless you use his -3, which doesn't help enough against blue to matter. Garruk is great against control, and I might board him in for that.
Honestly, I can't figure out how to beat blue or even make it a fair matchup. My win rate against them is like 30% or less. They are simply faster than us, and those maindeck Tidebinders are brutal. Prophet gets around them, but is not much of an offensive threat itself. I think I need to work on my mana curve. This list has too many 4 and 5 drops.
edit: Mistcutter Hydra has been my best card against blue, I might just find a way to maindeck them
I've tested both, but they haven't done much for me. Mono-U is by far the worst matchup for this deck. Unless you can get Jace down turn 3, he comes down too late to be helpful and either gets wiped out immediately or ignored if they're close enough to killing us.
Garruk doesn't actually affect the board unless you use his -3, which doesn't help enough against blue to matter. Garruk is great against control, and I might board him in for that.
Honestly, I can't figure out how to beat blue or even make it a fair matchup. My win rate against them is like 30% or less. They are simply faster than us, and those maindeck Tidebinders are brutal. Prophet gets around them, but is not much of an offensive threat itself. I think I need to work on my mana curve. This list has too many 4 and 5 drops.
edit: Mistcutter Hydra has been my best card against blue, I might just find a way to maindeck them
Not running Garruk and Jace in the 75 is a mistake. If that isn't blatantly obvious to you I don't know what to say. You clearly haven't done much play testing with either of them in the deck.
As for mono blue our sideboard does a bunch of wonderful things like Bow of Nylea and Gainsay Mistcutter Hydra and even Skylasher. I have Thassa and Master of Waves main decked in my list so I really haven't had much trouble with the mono blue matchup seeing as the only terribly relevant thing tidebinder can tap down is Elvish Mystic.
Not running Garruk and Jace in the 75 is a mistake. If that isn't blatantly obvious to you I don't know what to say. You clearly haven't done much play testing with either of them in the deck.
How about a few hints then? I've done testing and I just don't see as much benefit as you are describing. If they hit on curve on a stable board, they are amazing (as are most planeswalkers), but they don't really help me catch up if I'm behind. I'm probably going to start running Garruk though. There are a couple matchups that he makes much easier
As for mono blue our sideboard does a bunch of wonderful things like Bow of Nylea and Gainsay Mistcutter Hydra and even Skylasher. I have Thassa and Master of Waves main decked in my list so I really haven't had much trouble with the mono blue matchup seeing as the only terribly relevant thing tidebinder can tap down is Elvish Mystic.
It also taps down World Eater, Scavenging Ooze, Experiment One, and Biomancer. It's not a killer, but it is quite annoying. I think I'm going to replace Ooze with Mistcutter in my maindeck. That card + Simic Charm seem to be my best bet against Mono-U
How about a few hints then? I've done testing and I just don't see as much benefit as you are describing. If they hit on curve on a stable board, they are amazing (as are most planeswalkers), but they don't really help me catch up if I'm behind. I'm probably going to start running Garruk though. There are a couple matchups that he makes much easier
It also taps down World Eater, Scavenging Ooze, Experiment One, and Biomancer. It's not a killer, but it is quite annoying. I think I'm going to replace Ooze with Mistcutter in my maindeck. That card + Simic Charm seem to be my best bet against Mono-U
First off Jace and Garruk are card advantage. Card advantage (in most situations) is pretty much the best way to come from behind and win.
Secondly. I dont run Biomancer, experiment one, or scavenging ooze. Tapping down biomancer doesn't do anything anyway.
Polukranos is mainly in the deck for his monstrous. Which can be activated whenever you want regardless of tidebinder mage tapping him down.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
In my experience Monoblue is one of the easier match ups. Their deck is slow and runs a lot of mediocre cards. The only thing you have to worry about is Thassa and Bident. Cards that matter in that matchup are Sphinx, Horizon Chimera (to some extent), Polukranos, and obviously Prophet and Cyclonic Rift, which are both extremely potent there.
Master Biomancer is bit of an odd duck, but I think he's fine if you're running Prime Speakers as a part of your draw engine, and I think this deck always wants to be playing something for 4 mana or more on turn 3. So whether that's Polukranos, Jace, Master Biomancer or Prophet I don't think it matters too much. I know it doesn't say much about a card when you say I'd be happy if they use removal on it but that's sort of the situation: Run Master Biomancer out there and if they don't deal with it everything else we follow up with is that much more difficult to deal with.
Master Biomancer is bit of an odd duck, but I think he's fine if you're running Prime Speakers as a part of your draw engine, and I think this deck always wants to be playing something for 4 mana or more on turn 3. So whether that's Polukranos, Jace, Master Biomancer or Prophet I don't think it matters too much. I know it doesn't say much about a card when you say I'd be happy if they use removal on it but that's sort of the situation: Run Master Biomancer out there and if they don't deal with it everything else we follow up with is that much more difficult to deal with.
Which is another reason why Garruk and Jace are wonderful.
The removal for planeswalkers is pretty limited. The main one being bashing it in the face with a creature or Hero's Downfall and secondarily Dreadbore.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
In my experience Monoblue is one of the easier match ups. Their deck is slow and runs a lot of mediocre cards. The only thing you have to worry about is Thassa and Bident. Cards that matter in that matchup are Sphinx, Horizon Chimera (to some extent), Polukranos, and obviously Prophet and Cyclonic Rift, which are both extremely potent there.
Mono Blue is pretty darn quick and a turn 3 Thassa is pretty good since they'll start getting in with unblockable creatures and fliers. Post sideboard when you can bring in all your Skylasher and Mistcutters it's a different story.
Mono Blue is pretty darn quick and a turn 3 Thassa is pretty good since they'll start getting in with unblockable creatures and fliers. Post sideboard when you can bring in all your Skylasher and Mistcutters it's a different story.
Well we do have a lot of things that deals with little fliers. Polukranos and Arbor colossus do a good job of that.
Another point being
Prophet of Kruphix nulifies tidebinder mage completely.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Well we do have a lot of things that deals with little fliers. Polukranos and Arbor colossus do a good job of that.
Another point being
Prophet of Kruphix nulifies tidebinder mage completely.
Exactly, and most of our creatures are far superior, even an elf becomes a threat with Biomancer and we're playing 2 turns per 1 of theirs thanks to Prophet.
@Vollick: I don't even run pro-blue stuff, 3 Gainsay's are more than enough to beat mono-blue
I'm mot saying you can't win against mono blue I'm just saying if mono blue opens up with a decent hand and they curve out, this deck doesn't have very much spot removal so if they get us anywhere south of 10 life they have a very good chance of closing it out through unblockable Thassa beats even if we land Prophet and cast way more stuff than they do.
Vollick I know they can have good hands, but so can we, that's where luck comes in. Can they beat us? of course they can, I'm just saying that we have better odds of beating them than they have to beat us, and even if we lose g1, we have a ton of tools to take over the other 2 games.
I prefer gambit's list more, but I think that the 4x Cyclonic Rift and 4x Mistcutter Hydra is pretty excessive.
I'll be referring to your current list's mainboard. I haven't gone through the whole thread, but here are some of my suggestions (as a Kruphix Bant player):
Primespeaker Zegana - One of the best cards with Simic colors. card advantage is so important right now. Although she is not good by herself, with Prophet of Kruphix on the battlefield, she - and all of the big creatures in your deck - she's great. Draw cards = good
Aetherling - flashing in Aetherling is probably one of the coolest things that you can do.
Polukranos - It should definitely be bumped up to a 2 or 3 of. He is much better than a 1 of. It's a 5/5 for 4mana on turn 3. It helps get things off the battlefield. Flash in, monstrous, turn sideways.
Sylvan Primordial - Removal, 6/8. flash in, get a land, turn sideways
Boon Satyr - if you're looking for a creature with flash, Boon Satyr is a better pick than Horizon Chimera. Yes, it cannot fly, but it touches the battlefield faster. the bestow cost is pretty easy to cast as well.
Curse of the Swine - Creature removal, and it exiles (thassa, etc). That's great. the 2/2 boar trade-off isn't so bad.
Jace AoT - I don't play him because he is too $$$ for me, but he helps with getting what you need. his +1 ability is great especially if you're behind a little.
The bow and omenspeaker can definitely come out. Scry is great, but when I am in a topdecking situation, I want an answer or draw power, not a potential dig.
I don't really like scavenging ooze a lot. He can get big, yeah. There's just something about it that I don't like. He is good.
I could get more in depth but I've typed too much.
I prefer gambit's list more, but I think that the 4x Cyclonic Rift and 4x Mistcutter Hydra is pretty excessive.
I'll be referring to your current list's mainboard. I haven't gone through the whole thread, but here are some of my suggestions (as a Kruphix Bant player):
Primespeaker Zegana - One of the best cards with Simic colors. card advantage is so important right now. Although she is not good by herself, with Prophet of Kruphix on the battlefield, she - and all of the big creatures in your deck - she's great. Draw cards = good
I'm more and more tempted to replace my Urban Evolutions with Zegana. The synergy with Biomancer is undeniable, and being a creature makes it a better choice in Prophet lists. The reason why I like Urban Evolution is because it helps you get to 7 mana, which you need to cast Sylvan Primordial in some matches.
Aetherling - flashing in Aetherling is probably one of the coolest things that you can do.
Currently playing 1 main.
Polukranos - It should definitely be bumped up to a 2 or 3 of. He is much better than a 1 of. It's a 5/5 for 4mana on turn 3. It helps get things off the battlefield. Flash in, monstrous, turn sideways.
I've been thinking of including another copy, card is damn good and we don't have a lot of removal.
Sylvan Primordial - Removal, 6/8. flash in, get a land, turn sideways
They're good but I don't want them in every matchup, hence sideboard.
Boon Satyr - if you're looking for a creature with flash, Boon Satyr is a better pick than Horizon Chimera. Yes, it cannot fly, but it touches the battlefield faster. the bestow cost is pretty easy to cast as well.
Too weak against aggro, Chimera can flash kill a creature just like Satyr, but it also flies and gains you life, which is more important to me. Just picture playing one on your opponent's end step and then casting a Zegana or Urban Evolution on your turn. It can really help turn the tide.
Curse of the Swine - Creature removal, and it exiles (thassa, etc). That's great. the 2/2 boar trade-off isn't so bad.
Playing it as a 2-of.
Jace AoT - I don't play him because he is too $$$ for me, but he helps with getting what you need. his +1 ability is great especially if you're behind a little.
Huh, I'm not sure I want to play planeswalkers here, and the 4 spot is very crowded as it is.
The bow and omenspeaker can definitely come out. Scry is great, but when I am in a topdecking situation, I want an answer or draw power, not a potential dig.
I know these are my most questionable picks, but it has to do with how crazy the mana curve is in this deck. Its VERY top end heavy and it can be very hard to beat aggro if you don't have stuff to do early. Omenspeaker fills that hole and along with Ooze helps to overcome the aggro matchups. I stand by those Omenspeakers, they've been good to me.
About the Bow, I like how versatile it is, and Prognostic Sphinx loves getting counters on it too. Lifegain is damn good against aggro, and you can also shoot down Chandra's Phoenix's
I don't really like scavenging ooze a lot. He can get big, yeah. There's just something about it that I don't like. He is good.
I may be playing 1 copy too many, but the card is still good in almost any matchup
I could get more in depth but I've typed too much.
I've also been following the Bant Prophet thread in the competitive forums, I really want to make this thing better. However, I'm kinda against spending $ 20 on a single card, which is why I'm not using certain options. This is also why I've put Gambitking's list in the OP, as it shows a list that doesn't have this limitation.
I think both are strong lists but they are also different and have different strength's and weaknesses. I can see Gambitking's list being better against control, while mine is stronger against aggro.
R1 vs Monoblack: I lose 1-2, damn, this round was mine, I won g1 despite Pack Rat landing and making copies from turn 2 and on, but my newly acquired Curse of the Swine showed how amazing it is and turned them into pigs. Sphinx and other guys got there.
On g2, I was wrecking him with a couple of Prognostic Sphinx's that he just had no way of dealing with, he was at 10 life, and all he had been doing was up his devotion count with stuff that didn't matter... only to drop 2 Gray Merchants in a row and take the game (one hit for 11, the other I can't recall).
G3 was very much like g2 but this time he really pushed his luck while I had him at 5 and then came the double Gray Merchants... it just seemed like my deck was so much better than his, but somehow he still managed to win.
R2 vs GB midrange: I win 2-1, I start g1 with a slow hand and he punished me by dropping a t4 Primeval Bounty, I suck it up and play thinking I could still somehow win... yeah, it was too much.
G2 and G3 I just dominate with Sphinxes, Polukranos and the absolutely AMAZING Curse of the Swine which turns his Polukranos's, Ooze's, Desecration Demons and Reaper of the Wilds all into pigs... gosh, this card is GOLD.
R3 vs GR monsters: I lose 0-2, on game one I keep a slow hand and he drops Stormbreath Dragon, Stormbreath Dragon, and then shows me a third one in his hand... nothing to do here. On game 2 we go on to a very interesting game where he has Domri, Xenagos, Stormbreath, manadorks, etc while I get on board with a couple of weenies that don't matter much, only to respond to him tapping out for monstrosity by overloading Cyclonic Rift and then drop Biomancer and 2 other guys. The game goes on, he starts to rebuild slowly but steadily, and I start attacking. I piggify his dragon and a couple other things, drop Sylvan Primordial after he presents a second dragon and his 2 planeswalkers, taking out Xenagos while a boar of my own finishes his Domri.
I'm down to 4, so when he comes attacking with Dragon I'm forced to block, and then he goes to overload Mizzium Mortars clearing my whole board and leaving me to top deck an Island. Then comes the third Stormbreath Dragon and he takes the game.
R4 vs U/W Heroism: I win 2-1, I keep a slow hand once again and he punishes me for it. I proceed to win the next games by simply dropping bigger stuff and punishing him when he taps out by exiling everything he has with Curse of the Swine.
Conclusions: Boy, the deck is starting to feel really powerful, and Curse of the Swine is an absolute house, it just deals with EVERYTHING and the boars don't even matter. Hell I even turned one of my Caryatids into a Boar, which came in as a 4/4 thanks to Biomancer. I still have to tune the lower part of the curve, Scavenging Ooze was completely underwhelming today and I think I may replace them with more mana dorks. My match vs GR Monsters doesn't seem very good but I also think I kept hands that were too heavy and was also punished by not seeing my host of flyers which would've definitely helped on both games.
R1 vs Monoblack: I lose 1-2, damn, this round was mine, I won g1 despite Pack Rat landing and making copies from turn 2 and on, but my newly acquired Curse of the Swine showed how amazing it is and turned them into pigs. Sphinx and other guys got there.
On g2, I was wrecking him with a couple of Prognostic Sphinx's that he just had no way of dealing with, he was at 10 life, and all he had been doing was up his devotion count with stuff that didn't matter... only to drop 2 Gray Merchants in a row and take the game (one hit for 11, the other I can't recall).
G3 was very much like g2 but this time he really pushed his luck while I had him at 5 and then came the double Gray Merchants... it just seemed like my deck was so much better than his, but somehow he still managed to win.
R2 vs GB midrange: I win 2-1, I start g1 with a slow hand and he punished me by dropping a t4 Primeval Bounty, I suck it up and play thinking I could still somehow win... yeah, it was too much.
G2 and G3 I just dominate with Sphinxes, Polukranos and the absolutely AMAZING Curse of the Swine which turns his Polukranos's, Ooze's, Desecration Demons and Reaper of the Wilds all into pigs... gosh, this card is GOLD.
R3 vs GR monsters: I lose 0-2, on game one I keep a slow hand and he drops Stormbreath Dragon, Stormbreath Dragon, and then shows me a third one in his hand... nothing to do here. On game 2 we go on to a very interesting game where he has Domri, Xenagos, Stormbreath, manadorks, etc while I get on board with a couple of weenies that don't matter much, only to respond to him tapping out for monstrosity by overloading Cyclonic Rift and then drop Biomancer and 2 other guys. The game goes on, he starts to rebuild slowly but steadily, and I start attacking. I piggify his dragon and a couple other things, drop Sylvan Primordial after he presents a second dragon and his 2 planeswalkers, taking out Xenagos while a boar of my own finishes his Domri.
I'm down to 4, so when he comes attacking with Dragon I'm forced to block, and then he goes to overload Mizzium Mortars clearing my whole board and leaving me to top deck an Island. Then comes the third Stormbreath Dragon and he takes the game.
R4 vs U/W Heroism: I win 2-1, I keep a slow hand once again and he punishes me for it. I proceed to win the next games by simply dropping bigger stuff and punishing him when he taps out by exiling everything he has with Curse of the Swine.
Conclusions: Boy, the deck is starting to feel really powerful, and Curse of the Swine is an absolute house, it just deals with EVERYTHING and the boars don't even matter. Hell I even turned one of my Caryatids into a Boar, which came in as a 4/4 thanks to Biomancer. I still have to tune the lower part of the curve, Scavenging Ooze was completely underwhelming today and I think I may replace them with more mana dorks. My match vs GR Monsters doesn't seem very good but I also think I kept hands that were too heavy and was also punished by not seeing my host of flyers which would've definitely helped on both games.
Sounds like an extra Cyclonic Rift or some counterspells would help. At least both of those stop Grey Merchant and Stormbreath.
What about Rapid Hybridization? Instant spot removal for one blue seems solid enough. Of course then you're running less stuff that works with Biomancer and Kruphix. (I usually use the Bow of Nylea and Horizon Chimera to stabalize, but a big grey merchant smashes those.)
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What would you say?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say...
If you're saying that your meta is infested by aggro, then I stand by my list with Experiment Ones, as it destroys Monored and has like a 50/50 match against Boros.
It also obliterates anything like White Weenie (Orzhov aggro, Esper Aggro)
Azorius Control(2-0, 1-2, 2-1)
Elspeth is a nightmare for my list. If I don't have enough gas to push through a win in one turn with a Rift, then I'm pretty much doomed. Her -3 absolutely wrecks me. I still won the match, but it's against an AI so I would expect to. Countermagic was my best defense, and I got some serious blowouts by casting an overloaded Rift EOT when they had multiple detention spheres on the board. I likely would have been defeated by a stronger opponent
Mono-B Devotion(2-0,2-0)
I steamrolled both matches. The AI wasn't very good with this deck, but it still felt like they didn't have enough answers to deal with my threats. Rift is kind of terrible versus Merchant, but I was rarely low enough on life for that to become relevant and usually if I was overloading a Rift, I was going for the win next turn.
Mono-U Devotion(2-0,0-2,1-2)
Both games in match 1 I barely squeaked out with a win thanks to Aetherling being a house. I had to concede game 1 of the second match thanks to MTG Forge being stupid when I try to have it tap mana for me. Game 2 a Tidebinder hit my 7/7 Polukranos on the critical turn. It seems like my wins against this deck are purely based on me getting Aetherling out before they can kill me with Thassa or Master of the Waves. Also, Bident of Thassa is a menace. Honestly, this is a terrible matchup for me
Selesnya Aggro(2-1,0-2, 2-1)
Game 1 match 1 was close with me again squeaking by with Aetherling. Game 2 they curved out perfectly and crushed me. Game 3 was the opposite. I won with Experiment Ones, Scavenging Oozes, and a single Prophet. Match 2 they got off to fast starts both games while I didn't. Match 3 I had to mull down to 4 and 5. Managed to pull out one win thanks to a timely Rift and another to the old Biomancer-Biomancer-Biomancer play then dropping two 16/17 Prophets. This matchup seems like a coinflip
Gruul Midrange(1-2, 2-1, 2-1)
Stormbreath Dragon absolutely wrecks me. There is nothing I can do about it besides bounce it and hope for a counterspell. However, it's also the only really scary card in their deck besides Mizzium Mortars.
All in all, the AI opponent was not that great, so I'm pretty sure I got about 1-2 free wins per matchup on average. However, what I saw I still did not like. The only deck I feel confident against is Mono-B (which is nice). Mono-U is terrifying (and the most popular deck in the format). Selesnya and Gruul are a crapshoot at best. UW Control isn't a terrible matchup, but it's definitely not a favorable one.
Granted, these are all tier 1 decks right now. I took the lists from the top 5 at the last SCG Open. I need to find a way to squeeze some more interaction into this deck so I'm not so susceptible to getting blown out by single cards. I think Simic Charm is going to end up finding a way into this deck. I'm also going to be looking at Curse of Swine, Rapid Hybridization, and Swan Song as I have a few different ways of dealing with those tokens and I'm in need of some real removal
edit: Also, my mana kind of sucks. I found a lot of games where I was all green needing blue or all blue needing green. I need to figure that out.
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
Why don't you try out Prognostic Sphinx?, I think you're gonna like it. Once it gets going, it can really take the game over (scry out all those useless mana-dorks, find what you need and get damage through).
I might try Sphinx. Scry is quite useful mid-late game in this deck. I'm also considering throwing Horizon Chimera back in. I find Bow of Nylea pretty useful for the mono-u matchup. It also works nicely for pinging down Swan Song tokens. For now, I've thrown in some more board interaction and I threw together a sideboard (still working on it). Here's my latest deck list:
4x Experiment One
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Prophet of Kruphix
4x Master Biomancer
3x Scavenging Ooze
2x Polukranos, World Eater
2x AEtherling
Spells(8):
3x Simic Charm
1x Cyclonic Rift
2x Curse of the Swine
2x Urban Evolution
2x Bow of Nylea
Land(23):
4x Temple of Mystery
4x Breeding Pool
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
5x Island
9x Forest
3x Rapid Hybridization
2x Thassa, God of the Sea
3x Swan Song
3x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Curse of the Swine
2x Witchstalker
It has performed much better against my bad matchups, mainly because Curse of the Swine is amazing against midrange and Simic Charm is just amazing
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
I'm of the opinion that Cyclonic rift is the only instant or sorcery we need then just run a split of 2 jace and 2 garruk. Rest is creatures.
Jace and Garruk alongside omenspeakers and Prognostic Sphinx really keep our gas pedal down without ever having to let up.
I'm not a huge fan of either in this deck. I prefer Urban Evolution just for the raw drawing + acceleration. Garruk is the one I would consider of the two, but I haven't tested it enough. I'm not sure it would help against our weakest matchups
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
So you haven't tested either of the two?
Why not?
Urban Evolution Is in no way better than Garruk. Jace helps this decks worst matchup by a lot. You can drop a turn 3 jace against aggro and almost laugh. Furthermore Urban Evolution doesn't accelerate anything. It simply allows you to play an extra land. The card still costs 5 mana to play.
I've tested both, but they haven't done much for me. Mono-U is by far the worst matchup for this deck. Unless you can get Jace down turn 3, he comes down too late to be helpful and either gets wiped out immediately or ignored if they're close enough to killing us.
Garruk doesn't actually affect the board unless you use his -3, which doesn't help enough against blue to matter. Garruk is great against control, and I might board him in for that.
Honestly, I can't figure out how to beat blue or even make it a fair matchup. My win rate against them is like 30% or less. They are simply faster than us, and those maindeck Tidebinders are brutal. Prophet gets around them, but is not much of an offensive threat itself. I think I need to work on my mana curve. This list has too many 4 and 5 drops.
edit: Mistcutter Hydra has been my best card against blue, I might just find a way to maindeck them
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
Not running Garruk and Jace in the 75 is a mistake. If that isn't blatantly obvious to you I don't know what to say. You clearly haven't done much play testing with either of them in the deck.
As for mono blue our sideboard does a bunch of wonderful things like Bow of Nylea and Gainsay Mistcutter Hydra and even Skylasher. I have Thassa and Master of Waves main decked in my list so I really haven't had much trouble with the mono blue matchup seeing as the only terribly relevant thing tidebinder can tap down is Elvish Mystic.
How about a few hints then? I've done testing and I just don't see as much benefit as you are describing. If they hit on curve on a stable board, they are amazing (as are most planeswalkers), but they don't really help me catch up if I'm behind. I'm probably going to start running Garruk though. There are a couple matchups that he makes much easier
It also taps down World Eater, Scavenging Ooze, Experiment One, and Biomancer. It's not a killer, but it is quite annoying. I think I'm going to replace Ooze with Mistcutter in my maindeck. That card + Simic Charm seem to be my best bet against Mono-U
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
First off Jace and Garruk are card advantage. Card advantage (in most situations) is pretty much the best way to come from behind and win.
Secondly. I dont run Biomancer, experiment one, or scavenging ooze. Tapping down biomancer doesn't do anything anyway.
Polukranos is mainly in the deck for his monstrous. Which can be activated whenever you want regardless of tidebinder mage tapping him down.
I haven't been particularly fond of Master Biomancer If I want to "buff" my Master of Waves I'd just run Clone.
(Which for the record I don't think is good)
Which is another reason why Garruk and Jace are wonderful.
The removal for planeswalkers is pretty limited. The main one being bashing it in the face with a creature or Hero's Downfall and secondarily Dreadbore.
Mono Blue is pretty darn quick and a turn 3 Thassa is pretty good since they'll start getting in with unblockable creatures and fliers. Post sideboard when you can bring in all your Skylasher and Mistcutters it's a different story.
Well we do have a lot of things that deals with little fliers. Polukranos and Arbor colossus do a good job of that.
Another point being
Prophet of Kruphix nulifies tidebinder mage completely.
Exactly, and most of our creatures are far superior, even an elf becomes a threat with Biomancer and we're playing 2 turns per 1 of theirs thanks to Prophet.
@Vollick: I don't even run pro-blue stuff, 3 Gainsay's are more than enough to beat mono-blue
Vollick I know they can have good hands, but so can we, that's where luck comes in. Can they beat us? of course they can, I'm just saying that we have better odds of beating them than they have to beat us, and even if we lose g1, we have a ton of tools to take over the other 2 games.
I'll be referring to your current list's mainboard. I haven't gone through the whole thread, but here are some of my suggestions (as a Kruphix Bant player):
Primespeaker Zegana - One of the best cards with Simic colors. card advantage is so important right now. Although she is not good by herself, with Prophet of Kruphix on the battlefield, she - and all of the big creatures in your deck - she's great. Draw cards = good
Aetherling - flashing in Aetherling is probably one of the coolest things that you can do.
Polukranos - It should definitely be bumped up to a 2 or 3 of. He is much better than a 1 of. It's a 5/5 for 4mana on turn 3. It helps get things off the battlefield. Flash in, monstrous, turn sideways.
Sylvan Primordial - Removal, 6/8. flash in, get a land, turn sideways
Boon Satyr - if you're looking for a creature with flash, Boon Satyr is a better pick than Horizon Chimera. Yes, it cannot fly, but it touches the battlefield faster. the bestow cost is pretty easy to cast as well.
Curse of the Swine - Creature removal, and it exiles (thassa, etc). That's great. the 2/2 boar trade-off isn't so bad.
Jace AoT - I don't play him because he is too $$$ for me, but he helps with getting what you need. his +1 ability is great especially if you're behind a little.
The bow and omenspeaker can definitely come out. Scry is great, but when I am in a topdecking situation, I want an answer or draw power, not a potential dig.
I don't really like scavenging ooze a lot. He can get big, yeah. There's just something about it that I don't like. He is good.
I could get more in depth but I've typed too much.
I've also been following the Bant Prophet thread in the competitive forums, I really want to make this thing better. However, I'm kinda against spending $ 20 on a single card, which is why I'm not using certain options. This is also why I've put Gambitking's list in the OP, as it shows a list that doesn't have this limitation.
I think both are strong lists but they are also different and have different strength's and weaknesses. I can see Gambitking's list being better against control, while mine is stronger against aggro.
R1 vs Monoblack: I lose 1-2, damn, this round was mine, I won g1 despite Pack Rat landing and making copies from turn 2 and on, but my newly acquired Curse of the Swine showed how amazing it is and turned them into pigs. Sphinx and other guys got there.
On g2, I was wrecking him with a couple of Prognostic Sphinx's that he just had no way of dealing with, he was at 10 life, and all he had been doing was up his devotion count with stuff that didn't matter... only to drop 2 Gray Merchants in a row and take the game (one hit for 11, the other I can't recall).
G3 was very much like g2 but this time he really pushed his luck while I had him at 5 and then came the double Gray Merchants... it just seemed like my deck was so much better than his, but somehow he still managed to win.
R2 vs GB midrange: I win 2-1, I start g1 with a slow hand and he punished me by dropping a t4 Primeval Bounty, I suck it up and play thinking I could still somehow win... yeah, it was too much.
G2 and G3 I just dominate with Sphinxes, Polukranos and the absolutely AMAZING Curse of the Swine which turns his Polukranos's, Ooze's, Desecration Demons and Reaper of the Wilds all into pigs... gosh, this card is GOLD.
R3 vs GR monsters: I lose 0-2, on game one I keep a slow hand and he drops Stormbreath Dragon, Stormbreath Dragon, and then shows me a third one in his hand... nothing to do here. On game 2 we go on to a very interesting game where he has Domri, Xenagos, Stormbreath, manadorks, etc while I get on board with a couple of weenies that don't matter much, only to respond to him tapping out for monstrosity by overloading Cyclonic Rift and then drop Biomancer and 2 other guys. The game goes on, he starts to rebuild slowly but steadily, and I start attacking. I piggify his dragon and a couple other things, drop Sylvan Primordial after he presents a second dragon and his 2 planeswalkers, taking out Xenagos while a boar of my own finishes his Domri.
I'm down to 4, so when he comes attacking with Dragon I'm forced to block, and then he goes to overload Mizzium Mortars clearing my whole board and leaving me to top deck an Island. Then comes the third Stormbreath Dragon and he takes the game.
R4 vs U/W Heroism: I win 2-1, I keep a slow hand once again and he punishes me for it. I proceed to win the next games by simply dropping bigger stuff and punishing him when he taps out by exiling everything he has with Curse of the Swine.
Conclusions: Boy, the deck is starting to feel really powerful, and Curse of the Swine is an absolute house, it just deals with EVERYTHING and the boars don't even matter. Hell I even turned one of my Caryatids into a Boar, which came in as a 4/4 thanks to Biomancer. I still have to tune the lower part of the curve, Scavenging Ooze was completely underwhelming today and I think I may replace them with more mana dorks. My match vs GR Monsters doesn't seem very good but I also think I kept hands that were too heavy and was also punished by not seeing my host of flyers which would've definitely helped on both games.
Sounds like an extra Cyclonic Rift or some counterspells would help. At least both of those stop Grey Merchant and Stormbreath.
What about Rapid Hybridization? Instant spot removal for one blue seems solid enough. Of course then you're running less stuff that works with Biomancer and Kruphix. (I usually use the Bow of Nylea and Horizon Chimera to stabalize, but a big grey merchant smashes those.)