Didn't think I needed to give credit when I am not taking credit.
Don't get persnickety it's a good article and the source of the deck, I wasn't saying anything against you or that you were claiming the idea for your own.
Thoughts on running anger of the gods over supreme verdict? We only need the board wipe against quick aggro and it hits anything but smiter and hopefully a turn sooner..
Also i cant believe I havent seen izzet charms in anyone elses list, its versatillity is incredible. Things ive used it for:
Shoot an early mutavault pressuring me.
shoot an elf thats being double rampagered
Countered burning earth, lilly, rakdos return.
Filter away redundant gates.
filter away sweepers and fogs against control.
dig for a mazes end to win.
So much utility on one card, and if they try to play around the counterspell side off it, two turns is usually enough for us to be close enough to mazes ending that it doesnt matter.
Ive played fog's end at m14 gameday and a FNM's to a perfect record, as long as midrange and control take over the metagame, its incredibly well positioned.
Auger was an absolute all star, but I don't think omenspeaker will fill the hole, actually drawing the spell was huge. Gatecreeper vine is IMO a necessity, for its abilty to fix and grab one of basics.being able to put a forest in your hand so you can tap out for an urban evolution and then leave a fog up is huge.
Right now im leaning towards anger of the gods as our sweeper. Comes down a turn soonerr against fast aggro, and can also knock out sylvan caryatids to keep midranges big threats from coming down for another turn. Every extra turn we dont have to fog is like drawing an extra one.
My current list I'll be assembling.
28 lands
4 mazes end
3X simic, gruul, and izzet ggate
1x orzhov and undecided
2x all other gates
1 forest
2x mountain
12 fogs
4x fog
4x druids deliverence
4x riot control
Draw
4x urban evolution
2xquicken
1x opportunity
2xread the bones
Other
4x gatecreeper vine
4x qnger of the gods
3x izzet charm
I like being land heavy, might even shave another redundant gate for another mountain if aggro is heavy in the meta. Read the bones is going to be so amazing if were not against aggro.
We lost a lot with auger and terminus but some of our biggest problem cards are gone now too( Lilly, hellrider, and blood artist were a beating.
I have been toying with the idea of Anger myself. I think working on the mana base to support more red cards could be the correct choice. However, in theory, we should be able to fog plenty of attacks by turn 3/4.
Swan song counter BE and Rakdos Return. Being able to filter away redundant gates however does sound nice. I think it depends on what type of deck your running. Are you playing more fog heavy, or control heavy? (coutnerspells etc)
I also like defend the hearth, as it protects a Jace/Elspeth if you choose to play either. Read the Bones could be interesting though. I don't know if I am comfortable with 12 fogs and no Sphinx's
Really, I use Verdict more late game. I stall them with fogs until I'm running low on fogs, I don't think I can get them to commit anything more to the board, or they provide an opportunity to get rid of a creature that's resiliant to verdict by tapping out. I blew out a control player when he turn 6ed his atherling. I don't think he expected me to have verdict. The only thing Anger does better is deal with Voice.
So I was looking at something like this
4 Sphinx’s Revelation
4 Urban Evolution
4 Fog
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Riot Control
4 Druid’s Deliverance
4 Quicken
4 Dissolve
1 Detention Sphere
4 Maze’s End
3 Simic Guildegate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Azorius Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
So the 4 quicken allows verdict to basically function as another fog since i really would rather not tapout on my turn playing this deck. I think this deck will be very strong for week 1 as the popular consensus among my play testing group is that mono red is the best deck though we have not tested vs this yet. Also I'm unsure of a board as i feel esper should be a particularly easy match up if they don't resolve a jace amount of fogs we play will prevent them from killing us with an AEtherling while we just maze's end them to death which they are unable to interact with.
So I was looking at something like this
4 Sphinx’s Revelation
4 Urban Evolution
4 Fog
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Riot Control
4 Druid’s Deliverance
4 Quicken
4 Dissolve
1 Detention Sphere
4 Maze’s End
3 Simic Guildegate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Azorius Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
So the 4 quicken allows verdict to basically function as another fog since i really would rather not tapout on my turn playing this deck. I think this deck will be very strong for week 1 as the popular consensus among my play testing group is that mono red is the best deck though we have not tested vs this yet. Also I'm unsure of a board as i feel esper should be a particularly easy match up if they don't resolve a jace amount of fogs we play will prevent them from killing us with an AEtherling while we just maze's end them to death which they are unable to interact with.
Few things, first please use deck/card tags in the future :). Second, Why do you care about tapping out for supreme verdict? It clears their board so you don't need to hold mana to fog. sphinx's revelation Is much worse in this deck then you would think and quicken is horrible. Lastly RDW is your worst match-up alongside rakdos discards shinnanigans, A decent RDW player should be able to win especially after bringing in burning earth.
My LGS has WNM. Wednesday night, one of the players was playing a current Standard Maze's End Turbo Fog. He went 3-1, with his only loss a die roll round 3. I had already started putting together this list I found somewhere (but can't remember where at the moment) for rotation. I haven't considered Theros cards yet, but I am playing this tonight at FNM.
Nothing is lost due to rotation. This is a list I found with a change to the sideboard. I swapped in Elixir of Immortality for Centaur Healer. I feel the Elixir is more relevant against the rogue mill decks we see at our LGS and Saruli Gatekeepers life gain is more relevant than Centaur Healer.
The list I saw last night had no sweepers, just the fogs and Detention Sphere. I'm wondering if maybe at LEAST Plannar Cleansing in the 75 would be a good idea.
Nothing is lost due to rotation. This is a list I found with a change to the sideboard. I swapped in Elixir of Immortality for Centaur Healer. I feel the Elixir is more relevant against the rogue mill decks we see at our LGS and Saruli Gatekeepers life gain is more relevant than Centaur Healer.
I really like this deck build. From Theros the one really good card is Defend the Heart, which is just Druid's Deliverance without the populate. So my main deck is the same as yours -2 Detention Sphere, -2 Divination, +3 Defend the Hearth. As for the sideboard, I'd probably cut the 4 Elixir of Immortality for 2 Read the Bones and 2 Hero's Downfall or Dreadbore, I'm not sure which is stronger. I don't disagree with the Elixirs, but my LGS tends to be filled with more Tier 1 standard decks.
I just think gatecreeper vine to fix your mana is essential and that 30 lands is too big of a price to pay to play into the wilds. I'd rather not give them a permanent they can interact with game 1 and get my card draw with some lifegain as well is Sphinx's rev. People have said it doesn't fit with the deck's current incarnation, but the format should be slowing down and in my testing against post theros decks, it's fantastic and imo, the lifegain is needed against things like obzedat, burn, ect.
I don't like Sylvan Carytid much in here as he does die to Verdict which kind of defeats the purpose of being able to ramp a bit. and seriously 4 Gatecreeper Vine is where you want to be, it let's you win a turn earlier more often. if you have 8 diff gates in play and untap with Maze's End, you can win that turn by either playing a 9th unique Gate you have in hand, or fetching the 9th one with Gatecreeper Vine and activating Maze's End for the win. Also fixes mana early, and is a roadblock. I think if you're gonna go a mana ramp route, possibly look at some sort of artifact accel? I'm looking at you Chromatic Lantern
do we maybe want Elspeth instead of Jace here? she's an alt wincon, and is also another wrath effect. just tossing that out there. Heck Jace, Architect of Thought might be good too as card draw/Fog. requires testing of course.
I actally like S-Rev here as as 2 or 3 of. It can basically be a fog that draws more fogs. Also more basics or shocks. Some of the faster red decks will have you within burn range by turn 3
I think if we're going to go the Ral Zarek route, we should just run Chromatic Lantern instead since he'd basically jsut be a +1 mana each turn, with the slight potential to trigger Maze's End twice... but honestly if you have 7 + mana available to activate Maze's End twice per turn you should be about ready to win anyway.... and his 2 bolts isn't too exciting as it will rarely kill two creatures, if we wanted that I'd advised Far/Away instead, it's also less rough on our manabase than the R in Ral's cost.
I was doing some thought ont he list and think Idon't like Omenspeaker too much, and that I really like the idea of a few walkers in the main. Also Merciless Eviction is a little slow, but powerful, and Cyclonic Rift seems like it will fit into this deck very nicely
Notes on the Sideboard:
for the sideboard, I have Naturalize for Burning Earth and any splash enchantments/artifacts (like Primeval Bounty or the God's Weapons)
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver as an alt win condition against control. I like him better than Jace, Memory Adept because Jace sometimes comes down too late to start making a difference before we die.
Hero's Demise helps shore up our defence against Sire of Insanity and random other walkers (this number could increase depending on the meta.)
Swan Song is the best counterspell for this deck. It counters everything that's a problem for us besides walkers, and also helps us leave extra mana open to Fog etc if we need to. I feel this is important as we are running a turn behind every deck with out CITP tapped lands.
Pithing Needle is our defense against Planeswalkers and may have additional utility I can't think of right now.
Merciless Eviction and Ratchet Bomb can probably be something more specialized, but I need to toy with tse numbers a bit more...
what do you guys think of my take on the list currently? I'm a bit concerned about being effective with Azorius Charm because of the rainbow manabase, but I think its powerful enough to warrant testing, maybe will drop from 4 to 3.
Also, a note on Sphinx's Revelation I tested this card before, and I found it to be underwhelming. all our lands come into play tapped so it's rare we can get more than 2-3 life + cards when we really need them. I feel like the Fogs are more effective at gaining life for us essentially... I am open in the right build to trying it again but I wasn't impressed before here. Other places its backbreaking. not so much in this deck I feel.
That's funny because I've found sphinx's rev to be amazing for me in my build. I run a full 4 of each fog though and the only nonland permanents are gatecreeper vine and they've already done their job once they enter the battlefield. The only losses I've had with it so far are to decks that bypass fog ie Obzedat/Grey Merchant/Black God.deck and misplays. I do fond that often when I find someone to test against, they quit in the middle of game 1 so I haven't been able to get as many sideboarded games in as I have unsideboarded. I'm really kicking myself right now because I played my other deck in the Magic-League Master today and went 3-3 where the decks I played against were all midrange or control and I feel I would have done better against them with my maze deck. I'm going to see if I can get all the cards together to play it at the next FNM and see how it does there, although the players should already be somewhat prepared as there's already a guy there who was playing the prerotation build. My build seems very consistent, but there are some things it just loses to. I think I'd rather take the consistency against everything else and if my opponent manages to cast Sire of Insanity against me, I'll just say "touche". My deck does have outs to Ruric Thar, but that's another card that's difficult to beat. One thing I've been debating is wear/tear vs Fade into Antiquity in the sideboard. Wear/Tear has the potential to take care of 2 problems such as if they have pithing needle and burning earth both out and the added utility of being an instant, but has no game at all against the red and black gods which I've found can be a problem for the deck.
1 mana vs 2 mana and the only thing negate gets that swan song dosn't is planeswalkers which we don't care about for the most part. As for losing to tomb scour, most of the lists here have ways to beat mill.
1 mana vs 2 mana and the only thing negate gets that swan song dosn't is planeswalkers which we don't care about for the most part. As for losing to tomb scour, most of the lists here have ways to beat mill.
Dont forget about Syncopate. It hits all the annoying stuff that Maze's end decks dont like. Rakdos Return, the Red god, burning earth, and Sire of Insanity. fwiw, I run 2 syncopate and 2 negate main deck. But could go to 4 syncopate...
Really like that list Pride. Any feedback on matchups you have tested against? I think not having Urban is interesting, I have found myself not wanting to use it until atleast t7/8 where I am able to tap for it and have a fog effect or swan song up to protect.
Really like that list Pride. Any feedback on matchups you have tested against? I think not having Urban is interesting, I have found myself not wanting to use it until atleast t7/8 where I am able to tap for it and have a fog effect or swan song up to protect.
That was actually an old list. The current list is:
so you guys have been having favorable results with mainboard counterspellls? Swan Song is primarily what I'm curious about as its a very solid card.
and is there a decent answer to Obzedat at all? he is REALLY hard to beat.
I think our toughest cards to beat list is something like this:
Sire of Insanity
[CARD]
Burning Earth
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Obzedat, Ghost Council
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Pithing Needle
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Thoughtseize
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
[/CARD] Voice of Resurgence (without Terminus he's a lot better)
most Planeswalkers give us fits too.
Sire of Insanity
[CARD]
Burning Earth
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Obzedat, Ghost Council
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Pithing Needle
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Thoughtseize
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
[/CARD] Voice of Resurgence (without Terminus he's a lot better)
most Planeswalkers give us fits too.
did I miss anything?
Does this list alone rule out the deck being played? I can't see any of those cards being less popular.
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Don't get persnickety it's a good article and the source of the deck, I wasn't saying anything against you or that you were claiming the idea for your own.
Also i cant believe I havent seen izzet charms in anyone elses list, its versatillity is incredible. Things ive used it for:
Shoot an early mutavault pressuring me.
shoot an elf thats being double rampagered
Countered burning earth, lilly, rakdos return.
Filter away redundant gates.
filter away sweepers and fogs against control.
dig for a mazes end to win.
So much utility on one card, and if they try to play around the counterspell side off it, two turns is usually enough for us to be close enough to mazes ending that it doesnt matter.
Swan song counter BE and Rakdos Return. Being able to filter away redundant gates however does sound nice. I think it depends on what type of deck your running. Are you playing more fog heavy, or control heavy? (coutnerspells etc)
I also like defend the hearth, as it protects a Jace/Elspeth if you choose to play either. Read the Bones could be interesting though. I don't know if I am comfortable with 12 fogs and no Sphinx's
Modern: UW Spirits
4 Sphinx’s Revelation
4 Urban Evolution
4 Fog
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Riot Control
4 Druid’s Deliverance
4 Quicken
4 Dissolve
1 Detention Sphere
4 Maze’s End
3 Simic Guildegate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Azorius Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
So the 4 quicken allows verdict to basically function as another fog since i really would rather not tapout on my turn playing this deck. I think this deck will be very strong for week 1 as the popular consensus among my play testing group is that mono red is the best deck though we have not tested vs this yet. Also I'm unsure of a board as i feel esper should be a particularly easy match up if they don't resolve a jace amount of fogs we play will prevent them from killing us with an AEtherling while we just maze's end them to death which they are unable to interact with.
Few things, first please use deck/card tags in the future :). Second, Why do you care about tapping out for supreme verdict? It clears their board so you don't need to hold mana to fog. sphinx's revelation Is much worse in this deck then you would think and quicken is horrible. Lastly RDW is your worst match-up alongside rakdos discards shinnanigans, A decent RDW player should be able to win especially after bringing in burning earth.
1 Gatecreeper Vine
1 Archaeomancer
4 Saruli Gatekeepers
Spells (24)
4 Fog
4 Druid's Deliverance
2 Detention Sphere
2 Divination
4 Riot Control
4 Into the Wilds
4 Urban Evolution
Lands (30)
2 Azorius Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
4 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
1 Island
2 Izzet Guildgate
4 Maze's End
2 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Plains
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
4 Elixir of Immortality
3 Wear // Tear
3 Crackling Perimeter
3 Negate
2 Assemble the Legion
Nothing is lost due to rotation. This is a list I found with a change to the sideboard. I swapped in Elixir of Immortality for Centaur Healer. I feel the Elixir is more relevant against the rogue mill decks we see at our LGS and Saruli Gatekeepers life gain is more relevant than Centaur Healer.
The list I saw last night had no sweepers, just the fogs and Detention Sphere. I'm wondering if maybe at LEAST Plannar Cleansing in the 75 would be a good idea.
I really like this deck build. From Theros the one really good card is Defend the Heart, which is just Druid's Deliverance without the populate. So my main deck is the same as yours -2 Detention Sphere, -2 Divination, +3 Defend the Hearth. As for the sideboard, I'd probably cut the 4 Elixir of Immortality for 2 Read the Bones and 2 Hero's Downfall or Dreadbore, I'm not sure which is stronger. I don't disagree with the Elixirs, but my LGS tends to be filled with more Tier 1 standard decks.
Freedom is slavery!
Ignorance is strength!
Modern: UW Spirits
I don't like Sylvan Carytid much in here as he does die to Verdict which kind of defeats the purpose of being able to ramp a bit. and seriously 4 Gatecreeper Vine is where you want to be, it let's you win a turn earlier more often. if you have 8 diff gates in play and untap with Maze's End, you can win that turn by either playing a 9th unique Gate you have in hand, or fetching the 9th one with Gatecreeper Vine and activating Maze's End for the win. Also fixes mana early, and is a roadblock. I think if you're gonna go a mana ramp route, possibly look at some sort of artifact accel? I'm looking at you Chromatic Lantern
do we maybe want Elspeth instead of Jace here? she's an alt wincon, and is also another wrath effect. just tossing that out there. Heck Jace, Architect of Thought might be good too as card draw/Fog. requires testing of course.
I was doing some thought ont he list and think Idon't like Omenspeaker too much, and that I really like the idea of a few walkers in the main. Also Merciless Eviction is a little slow, but powerful, and Cyclonic Rift seems like it will fit into this deck very nicely
4 Gatecreeper Vine
4 Azorius Charm
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Cylconic Rift
1 Merciless Eviction
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Fog
4 Riot Control
3 Druid's Deliverance
2 Defend the Hearth
4 Azorius Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
1 Gruul Guildgae
1 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Naturalize
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Hero's Demise
3 Pithing Needle
4 Swan Song
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Merciless Eviction
Notes on the Sideboard:
for the sideboard, I have Naturalize for Burning Earth and any splash enchantments/artifacts (like Primeval Bounty or the God's Weapons)
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver as an alt win condition against control. I like him better than Jace, Memory Adept because Jace sometimes comes down too late to start making a difference before we die.
Hero's Demise helps shore up our defence against Sire of Insanity and random other walkers (this number could increase depending on the meta.)
Swan Song is the best counterspell for this deck. It counters everything that's a problem for us besides walkers, and also helps us leave extra mana open to Fog etc if we need to. I feel this is important as we are running a turn behind every deck with out CITP tapped lands.
Pithing Needle is our defense against Planeswalkers and may have additional utility I can't think of right now.
Merciless Eviction and Ratchet Bomb can probably be something more specialized, but I need to toy with tse numbers a bit more...
what do you guys think of my take on the list currently? I'm a bit concerned about being effective with Azorius Charm because of the rainbow manabase, but I think its powerful enough to warrant testing, maybe will drop from 4 to 3.
Also, a note on Sphinx's Revelation I tested this card before, and I found it to be underwhelming. all our lands come into play tapped so it's rare we can get more than 2-3 life + cards when we really need them. I feel like the Fogs are more effective at gaining life for us essentially... I am open in the right build to trying it again but I wasn't impressed before here. Other places its backbreaking. not so much in this deck I feel.
Modern: UW Spirits
Modern: UW Spirits
Also, what do people think about having 4 Crackling perimeter mainboard, simply to help us win more.
Dont forget about Syncopate. It hits all the annoying stuff that Maze's end decks dont like. Rakdos Return, the Red god, burning earth, and Sire of Insanity. fwiw, I run 2 syncopate and 2 negate main deck. But could go to 4 syncopate...
1 elixir of immortality
Creatures (4):
4 gatecreeper vine
Enchantments (1):
1 crackling perimeter
Instants (21):
3 defend the hearth
4 druid's deliverance
4 fog
2 negate
4 riot control
2 sphinx's revelation
2 swan song
1 island
3 maze's end
1 plains
3 selesnya guildgate
3 simic guildgate
2 each other gate
Planeswalkers (2):
2 jace, architect of thought
Sorceries (4):
4 supreme verdict
2 crackling perimeter
3 detention sphere
1 elixir of immortality
2 negate
2 pithing needle
3 saruli gatekeepers
2 swan song
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Fog
3 Riot Control
2 Druid's Deliverance
3 Defend the Hearth
4 Maze's End
4 Azorius Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Gruul Guildgate
3 Cyclonic Rift
3 Urban Evolution
2 Swan Song
1 Negate
2 Izzet Charm
Really like that list Pride. Any feedback on matchups you have tested against? I think not having Urban is interesting, I have found myself not wanting to use it until atleast t7/8 where I am able to tap for it and have a fog effect or swan song up to protect.
That was actually an old list. The current list is:
1 elixir of immortality
Creatures (4):
4 gatecreeper vine
Enchantments (1):
1 crackling perimeter
Instants (19):
3 defend the hearth
4 druid's deliverance
4 fog
4 riot control
2 sphinx's revelation
2 swan song
1 island
3 maze's end
1 plains
3 selesnya guildgate
3 simic guildgate
2 each other gate
Planeswalkers (2):
2 jace, architect of thought
Sorceries (6):
4 supreme verdict
2 urban evolution
2 crackling perimeter
3 detention sphere
1 elixir of immortality
2 negate
2 pithing needle
3 saruli gatekeepers
2 swan song
I do like Evolution, but same as you don't normally play it until turn 6+, so 2 has been fine.
and is there a decent answer to Obzedat at all? he is REALLY hard to beat.
I think our toughest cards to beat list is something like this:
Sire of Insanity
[CARD]
Burning Earth
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Obzedat, Ghost Council
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Pithing Needle
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Thoughtseize
[/CARD]
[CARD]
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
[/CARD]
Voice of Resurgence (without Terminus he's a lot better)
most Planeswalkers give us fits too.
did I miss anything?
Does this list alone rule out the deck being played? I can't see any of those cards being less popular.