A lot of this complaining seems to be players who like blue complaining that their decks aren't giving them the consistency that they're used to. I can appreciate that without the power cards that blue normally has you're losing reliability, but you need to understand that you're just ending up in the position that every other colour is always in
I can't believe you just came and put it out there like that. There's a lot of beating around the bush when it comes to interpreting whats really being said.
There will always be some complaint when someones favorite deck type is not dominant, but the lack of a dominant U/X counter control deck is giving people fits in my opinion. Which is understandable, that deck is ... comfortable for many people.
So when you deal with a situation in which the other colors are as powerful, and that comfortable strategy weakened people are understandably bothered. That idea behind that deck has been fostered for a long, long time in magic in my opinion.
Bounce, counter, counter, eot? draw cards. Sweeper. Counter. Draw cards Eot, bounce. Self protecting win condition with counter back up. Its still around an deserves to be, however...
I think its nice that other strategies have developed card advantage strategies. Or effects that make the non draw card decks worth something.
However.... Super RELEVANT to this:
Bouncing Thragtusk with Resto Angel give you so much value, there's no reason not to do it in ever GW deck.
Their choice of lifegain varies but importantly, Trostani, Selesnyas's voice is the primary choice out of the side for the bulk of them vs aggro match-ups but the reason why? It doesn't fit their strategy at all to run the value cards. Instead they try to overwhelm with huge swings, of sometimes protected double strikers.
Cavern of souls greatly helps this strategy as well...
So this whole "Value Cards are RUINING THE FORMAT" is just untrue.
I hate to bring it up but, The existence of R/X aggro during an environment in which people routinely gain 10-20 life in a game is a sign that the value-cards aren't the end all be all.
Mono red is mono red, it's usually always just a variant on the same theme.
See... thats a probleeeemmm. I watched the red mages work really hard here on MTGS to assault all the things in the format till they "DEVELOPED" a deck that honestly is used by people all over, but these guys pioneered it right here. Everyday. The fact that anyone looks at a mono-red deck, or hell a R(x)aggro deck, or a zombies deck, and thinks for a second "These are all variants on the same theme" seems like you might need to look again. These decks have very different themes. The have the same "PLAN" but they attack that plan in very different ways.
^@Valarin
Still zeman's point stands. There are decks that arent' using any of the offensive value cards. The bulk of aggro decks AREN'T using thragtusk/angel/farseek.
Those are Mid-range cards. Naya/Bant/Jund Token tools.
3. The "everything is weak" standard
So... if we took all the power-cards out of standard right now?
... Most of all.... what I wanna know is, and I hope someone please answer this for me. What can be done to standard to make it better, with this card pool? Add cards? Remove cards? What is so egregious about that could be changed to make you love it?
Stop whining or stop playing magic because there will always be that one card that you hate. I hated Delver, stoneforge, and bloodbraid elf but didnt go trolling on forums.
A lot of this complaining seems to be players who like blue complaining that their decks aren't giving them the consistency that they're used to. I can appreciate that without the power cards that blue normally has you're losing reliability, but you need to understand that you're just ending up in the position that every other colour is always in. I feel that in that context, the complaints are pretty unjustified.
Just because your deck has some bad matchups doesn't reflect poorly on the healthy of the format. It is metagaming to make a choice to position a deck relative to the field to gain an edge. There is a different sort of metagaming (and much more involved) than just filing your sideboard with 'anti-deck X' cards.
It's not just blue, as efficient engines like Birthing Pod, Green Sun's Zenith just isn't there. I liked playing Delver last season just as much as RG Aggro or Naya Pod.
It's true that the format is extremely healthy right now, there is no question about that. The problem is healthy doesn't necessarily equate to being fun.
It's not just blue, as efficient engines like Birthing Pod, Green Sun's Zenith just isn't there. I liked playing Delver last season just as much as RG Aggro or Naya Pod.
It's true that the format is extremely healthy right now, there is no question about that. The problem is healthy doesn't necessarily equate to being fun.
That still doesn't really address my point that dealing with variance is normally just something colours other than blue have had to deal with. Green doesn't normally get effects like those costed so aggressivey. Pod is a pillar of Modern and GSZ is outright banned. Ponder and Pre-ordain are banned in Modern. These are incredibly powerful spells, especially in the limited card pool of Standard.
I feel my point still stands as a result. You and others may fairly not enjoy playing without the extra certainty to which you are accustomed, but to suggest that the format is 'un-fun' when the number of participants at major events are as high as ever and the overwhelming feedback on the format is positive, would lead me to suggest that it just isn't fun for players that like a certain kind of deck and don't want to play anything else. That's fair enough, I am sure that once SCM rotates you'll get your cantrips and filters back.
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It's not just blue, as efficient engines like Birthing Pod, Green Sun's Zenith just isn't there. I liked playing Delver last season just as much as RG Aggro or Naya Pod.
This seems vastly unfair. The engine haven't arrived yet and the beginning of them are being hated on in this very forum, people are tired of Thrag/resto. Wait till messenger/resto/counci starts happening. . .
What I mean by that is this. We're are very shallow in the standard right now.
So if you're complaint is there's not Birthing pot/zenith engine style things. You might only have to wait till that spoiler above is complete and some more dust to settle.
It's true that the format is extremely healthy right now, there is no question about that. The problem is healthy doesn't necessarily equate to being fun.
Fun... its an intangible thing, but even if you disagree with my statement on its gossamer nature, you'll have to agree that people definiton of that vary greatly.
I really want the answer to the question though, what would make if fun. I mean it sounds like people want the value cards removed. I don't think the really want that at all though.
I'm not sure what to think...
I find Revelation to be obnoxious, but I stoped caring about people resolving tusk so much. I learned from people how to build around it.
It occurs to me that more people would build around certain cards if indeed these cards are what's powering the format.
Again, what would make it better? Do things need to be removed? Added?
If its added then ... well just show some patience ? If its removed... well then... what? Whats so bad here, that hasn't always been there?
So... if we took all the power-cards out of standard right now?
... Most of all.... what I wanna know is, and I hope someone please answer this for me. What can be done to standard to make it better, with this card pool? Add cards? Remove cards? What is so egregious about that could be changed to make you love it?
You can't make it better. And the reason you can't is simple. Some people can't be pleased no matter what you do. If you changed certain things about this standard (banned Thragtusk as an example) you'd make some people happy and make other people unhappy.
You will ALWAYS have people who complain.
So what you have to do, in order to actually evaluate how good a Standard is, is look at how many people are playing it, going to tournaments, and buying cards. If that number is acceptable to WotC then the Standard is good.
If you go by the current numbers, this Standard is excellent.
But people will still complain.
So there are two ways to look at it.
1. You can't fix what isn't broken.
Or
2. You can't fix what can't be fixed.
Either way, you're looking at a Kobayashi Maru if you even try.
TL;DR - I simply ignore the people who complain as long as I'm enjoying myself and WotC is pleased with the current state of Standard.
I had to google that you know. Thanks I vaguely remembered it from my dad being a big fan. You sir have just made my night better.
TL;DR - I simply ignore the people who complain as long as I'm enjoying myself and WotC is pleased with the current state of Standard.
I gotcha. My only thought of that is if people complain loudly enough and often enough things will get changed, many times this has happened.
However... I agree with you. The best we can hope for is a healthy diverse enviornment. We have that so I don't think... theres too much reason to complain overall. Except for those people whose complaint is: Uxx control isn't good right now. or I want a "Real" combo deck (Real meaning what I don't know)
I hear that sometimes. I'm going to enjoy it while I can personally. . . It won't always be thus.
"The nature of magic is change" - Jodah "The Gathering dark novel"
Mono red is mono red, it's usually always just a variant on the same theme.
And just so I am clear, in no way am I blaming players for playing busted cards, if you want to win, you should be playing as many busted cards as you can. I just don't think "take busted card, fill in the rest of the spots, and go" is a very fun Standard format. In the games I see, there is very little thought involved in playing them, they all follow basically the same scripts. Like than Bant Enchantment deck, I mean, how much thought it there to dropping busted hexproof dudes and pumping them? Bouncing Thragtusk with Resto Angel give you so much value, there's no reason not to do it in ever GW deck.
I agree it is more diverse in that we have a good 6-8 busted cards ruling the format vs the usual 2-3 we get in past stale Standards, so I guess progress is progress
I don't think that a valid complaint can be made against the Bantchantment deck. It's basically a combo and there's actually a very real cost to playing a deck without a real mana-base(seriously, it's terrible).
As far as the scripts being more similar, while that is true, you still can't play on autopilot. Dark Naya in particular is a deck with a lot of play that can very easily set up even blue decks to lose there hands via Rakdos's Return with good tactical play.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Fun is winning, winning is fun. The high variance nature of the current format means anyone can take any deck they enjoy playing and do well with it. I think this is the main reason why the format is so healthy right now.
The problem with this is that when small countries only get a few PTQ a year, playing the best deck on the day to perfection sometime just isn't enough because of variance. Without library manipulation, you HAVE to get lucky, or at least luckier than usual. Could this also explain the dominance of aggressive strategies in the current format that serve to punish your opponents' average draws?
Perhaps unfun is not the right word to use, and I'm not sure what could be done to make the game fun for me again. In any case, it's Modern season so it's all irrelevant for the time being.
Bounce, counter, counter, eot? draw cards. Sweeper. Counter. Draw cards Eot, bounce. Self protecting win condition with counter back up. Its still around an deserves to be, however...
I couldn't disagree more, that is the kind of thing that makes magic unfun, and I'm also pretty sure wizards are consciously trying to move away from it. This ain't solitaire ok?
I actually don't think there's that much variance in the format. Outside of maybe five or six cards, everything being so similar in power level drastically decreases the variance in matches I'd imagine. The only decks with real variance are midrange decks because sometimes you draw the wrong half of your deck.
The control decks can consistently churn through there cards with a combination of cantrips and sphinx's revelation. The red/agro decks have curve redundancy. I don't think equating the lack of library manipulation to high variance works. Before caw-blade, give me a format that had quality library manipulating cantrips in the last 10 years.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
It's not just blue, as efficient engines like Birthing Pod, Green Sun's Zenith just isn't there. I liked playing Delver last season just as much as RG Aggro or Naya Pod.
It's true that the format is extremely healthy right now, there is no question about that. The problem is healthy doesn't necessarily equate to being fun.
Seance is an engine. However, if you're looking to tutor stuff... you're out of luck mostly, cause they've finally recognized how powerful that is.
I couldn't disagree more, that is the kind of thing that makes magic unfun, and I'm also pretty sure wizards are consciously trying to move away from it. This ain't solitaire ok?
Uh, that is the exact opposite of a Solitaire metaphor. You are interacting with your opponent almost every turn. Storm is playing Solitaire.
I am pretty offended that you are saying I am griping because blue is lacking power.
I can live without blue being a power house, I have played the grind with many, many blue free decks in my day and suffice to say, they are some of my favorite decks I have ever piloted.
That being said, blue is a very important color in magic. It is generally the color that keeps other decks honest, it also helps stabilize a meta game which in turn gives it more direct focus because of it's inherent ability to plan and prepare which in turn fosters skillfull interaction during gameplay.
All that is beside the point however, because you can still get this out of other colors all the same.
Back to the actual point. Which is that everyone is going to like to play their magic in a different way, that is what makes the game fun for so many people. But when WoTC tries to blanket a playerbase as they have done, they have take. A very important structure out of the game which impacts larger events in a bigger way then most people realize.
On the bright side, my legacy and modern digest is overflowing with articles as players start to take standard less seriously.
I am pretty offended that you are saying I am griping because blue is lacking power.
I can live without blue being a power house, I have played the grind with many, many blue free decks in my day and suffice to say, they are some of my favorite decks I have ever piloted.
That being said, blue is a very important color in magic. It is generally the color that keeps other decks honest, it also helps stabilize a meta game which in turn gives it more direct focus because of it's inherent ability to plan and prepare which in turn fosters skillfull interaction during gameplay.
All that is beside the point however, because you can still get this out of other colors all the same.
Back to the actual point. Which is that everyone is going to like to play their magic in a different way, that is what makes the game fun for so many people. But when WoTC tries to blanket a playerbase as they have done, they have take. A very important structure out of the game which impacts larger events in a bigger way then most people realize.
On the bright side, my legacy and modern digest is overflowing with articles as players start to take standard less seriously.
I'm seeing a trend too. The best players at my LGS have essentially quit Standard for now and are getting into Modern and/or Pauper.
If I offended you, I am sorry. It was not directed at you personally ~ if I had meant it to be, I would have been explicit. My infraction history verifies this.
Besides, I didn't call into question how long you had been playing
Saying blue allows you to plan more does not mean that it fosters skillful interaction and thoughtful gameplay ~ any more than decks without filtering require skillful interaction and thoughtful gameplay because you have to be able to handle greater variance. If there is sufficient filtering and draw to allow your deck to always do the same thing, how does that increase skill? You're removing one of the elements that actually makes the game difficult. Unless you're saying it takes more skill to play with less variance, which seems a bit illogical. It is harder to play with non-blue decks when the actual power cards of the respective decks are comparatively equal in power ~ blue is consistently the more powerful colour in eternal formats exactly because of the powerful filtering effects. This is why in standard, if blue can gain easy access to power cards - however it does so - it dominates the format. This is why Faeries, Cawblade and Delver was so stupid ~ you splashed another colour for the good cards (black, white and white respectively) then just made sure the deck did the same thing every single game with your blue cards. That isn't a slight on blue, but to not recognise the very real power of the subtle filtering effects, and to not acknowledge that this power has consistently seen blue as the strongest colour in competitive magic is not justified. That's just how it is. So when we start to see players complaining about the standard being unfun because there isn't filtering, there are only so many conclusions that can be drawn. A lot of players are having to realise that they're not as strong a player as the results they had with Cawblade and Delver would suggest.
It reads as if your upset that we have a standard format where you don't get to play exactly the deck you want to, when many others (and, judging my the popularity of this format) a majority of players have not got to play the deck they wanted to for a long time ~ it has been 'play blue or accept being less successful'. Now, instead of a majority of players complaining, which is what we have had for the last few seasons, we're down to a small minority. I will let you deduce what that minority is.
If you look at the results of GP ATC, the top 32 is littered with name players, so it would seem that this standard is sufficiently rewarding of skill play afterall.
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I couldn't disagree more, that is the kind of thing that makes magic unfun, and I'm also pretty sure wizards are consciously trying to move away from it. This ain't solitaire ok?
Hey. I just want to clarify something.
What I mean to say is "It deserves a shot to exist as much as any other archtype does."
Theres nothing wrong with wanting to play whatever deck you want.
The problem isn't that the strategy sucks for everyone that plays against it. The problem Imho, is that that particular strategy is given too many tool.
Removing the spell that says "Counter target spell" was a start. If the counters are of the pattern of Negate, Dispel, and essence scatter. Then thats okay.
If the effects that draw cards are all Sorcery speed, and or mana intensive. Thats okay.
If the rest of the format has tools to deal with the aforementioned things in cards that reflect the strategies they are pursuing then the aforementioned things are also much more easy to stomach even if the better forms that are not okay.
I'm with you, no the game isn't supposed to be solitaire. I've may have not been clear, I'm not a fan of that archetype its juts I recognize people really WANT to play that... someone explained it to me once I'll try to remember what it was they said about that deck if I can.
Uh, that is the exact opposite of a Solitaire metaphor. You are interacting with your opponent almost every turn. Storm is playing Solitaire
^ This mindset.
I'm not tryna pick nits but, while I agree, degeneratecombo.dec is the essence of "Solotaire".
Interaction: in the mind of most NOT sitting behind island out of love, is not occurring.
Why? The reason is simple, you're not interacting with my cards at all. You're interacting with spells (at least in any deck designed by hardcounters) doesn't matter what spell I'm playing "IDEALLY" because if its a threat. Its countered. If its not a threat, its mass removed.
Thats not actual interaction with the cards unless they're designed to work around hard counters....
like... Cascade for example. Rulings that ignore counter.dec.
We just saw a Bant Enchantment deck win a tournament and it was a rather uninteractive deck that was basically a game of solitaire. I noticed similar patterns in other decks, the level of interaction was fairly low. If they're honestly trying to make the game more interactive they certainly aren't doing a good job of it I think.
I don't support the existence of such a deck as I think Hexproof is way too powerful, but I also think that Wizards already know this because the amount of hexproof creatures that we're seeing now is notoriously reduced after RTR.
They are still making mistakes though, I mean, if you check out the Gatecrash spoilers, theres 1 card that pops out over everything else and almost everyone is able to tell which one it is regardless of how long they've been playing the game.
Kinda what happened when Snapcaster Mage was previewed
Snapcaster was not even thought to be that good when it was released!
Nor is there any one card that seems so amazing to me from GTC - unless you mean Ghost Council?
Hey. I just want to clarify something.
What I mean to say is "It deserves a shot to exist as much as any other archtype does."
Theres nothing wrong with wanting to play whatever deck you want.
The problem isn't that the strategy sucks for everyone that plays against it. The problem Imho, is that that particular strategy is given too many tool.
Removing the spell that says "Counter target spell" was a start. If the counters are of the pattern of Negate, Dispel, and essence scatter. Then thats okay.
If the effects that draw cards are all Sorcery speed, and or mana intensive. Thats okay.
I'm fine with all of that.
The problem has always been the versatility of countermagic: "Counter target spell" as you said is generally too powerful since it lets you get away with just packing a full sideboard of counterspells instead of having to actually THINK about what cards are good in specific matchups.
Now, manacosts are obviously very important here.
Dissipate IS NOT a weak spell when we're in a GRAVEYARD themed standard.
I'm fine with all of that.
The problem has always been the versatility of countermagic: "Counter target spell" as you said is generally too powerful since it lets you get away with just packing a full sideboard of counterspells instead of having to actually THINK about what cards are good in specific matchups.
Now, manacosts are obviously very important here.
Dissipate IS NOT a weak spell when we're in a GRAVEYARD themed standard.
While if you remove that text, Cancel is almost unplayable. The lesson is evaluating things in context.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Snapcaster was not even thought to be that good when it was released!
Nor is there any one card that seems so amazing to me from GTC - unless you mean Ghost Council?
No, it has an X in its casting cost.
Who didn't think Snapcaster was good?, don't take any advice from whoever told you that
If I offended you, I am sorry. It was not directed at you personally ~ if I had meant it to be, I would have been explicit. My infraction history verifies this.
Besides, I didn't call into question how long you had been playing
Saying blue allows you to plan more does not mean that it fosters skillful interaction and thoughtful gameplay ~ any more than decks without filtering require skillful interaction and thoughtful gameplay because you have to be able to handle greater variance. If there is sufficient filtering and draw to allow your deck to always do the same thing, how does that increase skill? You're removing one of the elements that actually makes the game difficult. Unless you're saying it takes more skill to play with less variance, which seems a bit illogical. It is harder to play with non-blue decks when the actual power cards of the respective decks are comparatively equal in power ~ blue is consistently the more powerful colour in eternal formats exactly because of the powerful filtering effects. This is why in standard, if blue can gain easy access to power cards - however it does so - it dominates the format. This is why Faeries, Cawblade and Delver was so stupid ~ you splashed another colour for the good cards (black, white and white respectively) then just made sure the deck did the same thing every single game with your blue cards. That isn't a slight on blue, but to not recognise the very real power of the subtle filtering effects, and to not acknowledge that this power has consistently seen blue as the strongest colour in competitive magic is not justified. That's just how it is. So when we start to see players complaining about the standard being unfun because there isn't filtering, there are only so many conclusions that can be drawn. A lot of players are having to realise that they're not as strong a player as the results they had with Cawblade and Delver would suggest.
It reads as if your upset that we have a standard format where you don't get to play exactly the deck you want to, when many others (and, judging my the popularity of this format) a majority of players have not got to play the deck they wanted to for a long time ~ it has been 'play blue or accept being less successful'. Now, instead of a majority of players complaining, which is what we have had for the last few seasons, we're down to a small minority. I will let you deduce what that minority is.
If you look at the results of GP ATC, the top 32 is littered with name players, so it would seem that this standard is sufficiently rewarding of skill play afterall.
From my time playing since Shards of Alara, blue has not been the majority dominant color. I'd argue that lies with Black, Red, or Green in varying spades. From Jund to Valakut, to Vamps, to Titan Ramp, to Birthing Pod, to RDW with Goblin Guide, blue had Caw Blade and Delver.
Even in Eternal formats blue isn't the most dominant. Especially not in Modern. Good lord is blue bad there. Also, it does take more skill to pilot a less variable environment. There's a reason Chess takes more skill than Magic, for instance. Or to take a more jarring example - Battleship takes considerably less skill than Starcraft.
I don't think that a valid complaint can be made against the Bantchantment deck. It's basically a combo and there's actually a very real cost to playing a deck without a real mana-base(seriously, it's terrible).
As far as the scripts being more similar, while that is true, you still can't play on autopilot. Dark Naya in particular is a deck with a lot of play that can very easily set up even blue decks to lose there hands via Rakdos's Return with good tactical play.
How is the Bant mana base terrible? It is only missing Breeding Pool, and that is it. It has Hallowed Fountain, Glacial Fortress, Temple Garden, Sun Petal Grove, Hinterland Harbor, etc. Bant has probably the most stable mana base in standard right now for 3 color decks anyways.
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I can't believe you just came and put it out there like that. There's a lot of beating around the bush when it comes to interpreting whats really being said.
There will always be some complaint when someones favorite deck type is not dominant, but the lack of a dominant U/X counter control deck is giving people fits in my opinion. Which is understandable, that deck is ... comfortable for many people.
So when you deal with a situation in which the other colors are as powerful, and that comfortable strategy weakened people are understandably bothered. That idea behind that deck has been fostered for a long, long time in magic in my opinion.
Bounce, counter, counter, eot? draw cards. Sweeper. Counter. Draw cards Eot, bounce. Self protecting win condition with counter back up. Its still around an deserves to be, however...
I think its nice that other strategies have developed card advantage strategies. Or effects that make the non draw card decks worth something.
However.... Super RELEVANT to this:
You know... green/white aggro DOESN'T do this ever right?
The majority of build from the G/x Aggro thread, are running: Sublime Archangel, Siverblade paladin, and Wolfir SilverHeart, and Rancor
Their choice of lifegain varies but importantly, Trostani, Selesnyas's voice is the primary choice out of the side for the bulk of them vs aggro match-ups but the reason why? It doesn't fit their strategy at all to run the value cards. Instead they try to overwhelm with huge swings, of sometimes protected double strikers.
Cavern of souls greatly helps this strategy as well...
So this whole "Value Cards are RUINING THE FORMAT" is just untrue.
I hate to bring it up but, The existence of R/X aggro during an environment in which people routinely gain 10-20 life in a game is a sign that the value-cards aren't the end all be all.
Still zeman's point stands. There are decks that arent' using any of the offensive value cards. The bulk of aggro decks AREN'T using thragtusk/angel/farseek.
Those are Mid-range cards. Naya/Bant/Jund Token tools.
So... if we took all the power-cards out of standard right now?
... Most of all.... what I wanna know is, and I hope someone please answer this for me. What can be done to standard to make it better, with this card pool? Add cards? Remove cards? What is so egregious about that could be changed to make you love it?
Decks that don't run revelation:
Jund
RDW
BR Rakdos
BR zombies
GB kiblers list
Selesnya aggro
Naya Midrange
Bant enchantments
Stop whining or stop playing magic because there will always be that one card that you hate. I hated Delver, stoneforge, and bloodbraid elf but didnt go trolling on forums.
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It's not just blue, as efficient engines like Birthing Pod, Green Sun's Zenith just isn't there. I liked playing Delver last season just as much as RG Aggro or Naya Pod.
It's true that the format is extremely healthy right now, there is no question about that. The problem is healthy doesn't necessarily equate to being fun.
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STANDARD RULES STOP HATIN
That still doesn't really address my point that dealing with variance is normally just something colours other than blue have had to deal with. Green doesn't normally get effects like those costed so aggressivey. Pod is a pillar of Modern and GSZ is outright banned. Ponder and Pre-ordain are banned in Modern. These are incredibly powerful spells, especially in the limited card pool of Standard.
I feel my point still stands as a result. You and others may fairly not enjoy playing without the extra certainty to which you are accustomed, but to suggest that the format is 'un-fun' when the number of participants at major events are as high as ever and the overwhelming feedback on the format is positive, would lead me to suggest that it just isn't fun for players that like a certain kind of deck and don't want to play anything else. That's fair enough, I am sure that once SCM rotates you'll get your cantrips and filters back.
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This seems vastly unfair. The engine haven't arrived yet and the beginning of them are being hated on in this very forum, people are tired of Thrag/resto. Wait till messenger/resto/counci starts happening. . .
What I mean by that is this. We're are very shallow in the standard right now.
So if you're complaint is there's not Birthing pot/zenith engine style things. You might only have to wait till that spoiler above is complete and some more dust to settle.
Fun... its an intangible thing, but even if you disagree with my statement on its gossamer nature, you'll have to agree that people definiton of that vary greatly.
I really want the answer to the question though, what would make if fun. I mean it sounds like people want the value cards removed. I don't think the really want that at all though.
I'm not sure what to think...
I find Revelation to be obnoxious, but I stoped caring about people resolving tusk so much. I learned from people how to build around it.
It occurs to me that more people would build around certain cards if indeed these cards are what's powering the format.
Again, what would make it better? Do things need to be removed? Added?
If its added then ... well just show some patience ? If its removed... well then... what? Whats so bad here, that hasn't always been there?
You can't make it better. And the reason you can't is simple. Some people can't be pleased no matter what you do. If you changed certain things about this standard (banned Thragtusk as an example) you'd make some people happy and make other people unhappy.
You will ALWAYS have people who complain.
So what you have to do, in order to actually evaluate how good a Standard is, is look at how many people are playing it, going to tournaments, and buying cards. If that number is acceptable to WotC then the Standard is good.
If you go by the current numbers, this Standard is excellent.
But people will still complain.
So there are two ways to look at it.
1. You can't fix what isn't broken.
Or
2. You can't fix what can't be fixed.
Either way, you're looking at a Kobayashi Maru if you even try.
TL;DR - I simply ignore the people who complain as long as I'm enjoying myself and WotC is pleased with the current state of Standard.
I gotcha. My only thought of that is if people complain loudly enough and often enough things will get changed, many times this has happened.
However... I agree with you. The best we can hope for is a healthy diverse enviornment. We have that so I don't think... theres too much reason to complain overall. Except for those people whose complaint is: Uxx control isn't good right now. or I want a "Real" combo deck (Real meaning what I don't know)
I hear that sometimes. I'm going to enjoy it while I can personally. . . It won't always be thus.
"The nature of magic is change" - Jodah "The Gathering dark novel"
I don't think that a valid complaint can be made against the Bantchantment deck. It's basically a combo and there's actually a very real cost to playing a deck without a real mana-base(seriously, it's terrible).
As far as the scripts being more similar, while that is true, you still can't play on autopilot. Dark Naya in particular is a deck with a lot of play that can very easily set up even blue decks to lose there hands via Rakdos's Return with good tactical play.
The problem with this is that when small countries only get a few PTQ a year, playing the best deck on the day to perfection sometime just isn't enough because of variance. Without library manipulation, you HAVE to get lucky, or at least luckier than usual. Could this also explain the dominance of aggressive strategies in the current format that serve to punish your opponents' average draws?
Perhaps unfun is not the right word to use, and I'm not sure what could be done to make the game fun for me again. In any case, it's Modern season so it's all irrelevant for the time being.
I couldn't disagree more, that is the kind of thing that makes magic unfun, and I'm also pretty sure wizards are consciously trying to move away from it. This ain't solitaire ok?
The control decks can consistently churn through there cards with a combination of cantrips and sphinx's revelation. The red/agro decks have curve redundancy. I don't think equating the lack of library manipulation to high variance works. Before caw-blade, give me a format that had quality library manipulating cantrips in the last 10 years.
Seance is an engine. However, if you're looking to tutor stuff... you're out of luck mostly, cause they've finally recognized how powerful that is.
Uh, that is the exact opposite of a Solitaire metaphor. You are interacting with your opponent almost every turn. Storm is playing Solitaire.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
I can live without blue being a power house, I have played the grind with many, many blue free decks in my day and suffice to say, they are some of my favorite decks I have ever piloted.
That being said, blue is a very important color in magic. It is generally the color that keeps other decks honest, it also helps stabilize a meta game which in turn gives it more direct focus because of it's inherent ability to plan and prepare which in turn fosters skillfull interaction during gameplay.
All that is beside the point however, because you can still get this out of other colors all the same.
Back to the actual point. Which is that everyone is going to like to play their magic in a different way, that is what makes the game fun for so many people. But when WoTC tries to blanket a playerbase as they have done, they have take. A very important structure out of the game which impacts larger events in a bigger way then most people realize.
On the bright side, my legacy and modern digest is overflowing with articles as players start to take standard less seriously.
I'm seeing a trend too. The best players at my LGS have essentially quit Standard for now and are getting into Modern and/or Pauper.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
Besides, I didn't call into question how long you had been playing
Saying blue allows you to plan more does not mean that it fosters skillful interaction and thoughtful gameplay ~ any more than decks without filtering require skillful interaction and thoughtful gameplay because you have to be able to handle greater variance. If there is sufficient filtering and draw to allow your deck to always do the same thing, how does that increase skill? You're removing one of the elements that actually makes the game difficult. Unless you're saying it takes more skill to play with less variance, which seems a bit illogical. It is harder to play with non-blue decks when the actual power cards of the respective decks are comparatively equal in power ~ blue is consistently the more powerful colour in eternal formats exactly because of the powerful filtering effects. This is why in standard, if blue can gain easy access to power cards - however it does so - it dominates the format. This is why Faeries, Cawblade and Delver was so stupid ~ you splashed another colour for the good cards (black, white and white respectively) then just made sure the deck did the same thing every single game with your blue cards. That isn't a slight on blue, but to not recognise the very real power of the subtle filtering effects, and to not acknowledge that this power has consistently seen blue as the strongest colour in competitive magic is not justified. That's just how it is. So when we start to see players complaining about the standard being unfun because there isn't filtering, there are only so many conclusions that can be drawn. A lot of players are having to realise that they're not as strong a player as the results they had with Cawblade and Delver would suggest.
It reads as if your upset that we have a standard format where you don't get to play exactly the deck you want to, when many others (and, judging my the popularity of this format) a majority of players have not got to play the deck they wanted to for a long time ~ it has been 'play blue or accept being less successful'. Now, instead of a majority of players complaining, which is what we have had for the last few seasons, we're down to a small minority. I will let you deduce what that minority is.
If you look at the results of GP ATC, the top 32 is littered with name players, so it would seem that this standard is sufficiently rewarding of skill play afterall.
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Hey. I just want to clarify something.
What I mean to say is "It deserves a shot to exist as much as any other archtype does."
Theres nothing wrong with wanting to play whatever deck you want.
The problem isn't that the strategy sucks for everyone that plays against it. The problem Imho, is that that particular strategy is given too many tool.
Removing the spell that says "Counter target spell" was a start. If the counters are of the pattern of Negate, Dispel, and essence scatter. Then thats okay.
If the effects that draw cards are all Sorcery speed, and or mana intensive. Thats okay.
If the rest of the format has tools to deal with the aforementioned things in cards that reflect the strategies they are pursuing then the aforementioned things are also much more easy to stomach even if the better forms that are not okay.
I'm with you, no the game isn't supposed to be solitaire. I've may have not been clear, I'm not a fan of that archetype its juts I recognize people really WANT to play that... someone explained it to me once I'll try to remember what it was they said about that deck if I can.
^ This mindset.
I'm not tryna pick nits but, while I agree, degeneratecombo.dec is the essence of "Solotaire".
Interaction: in the mind of most NOT sitting behind island out of love, is not occurring.
Why? The reason is simple, you're not interacting with my cards at all. You're interacting with spells (at least in any deck designed by hardcounters) doesn't matter what spell I'm playing "IDEALLY" because if its a threat. Its countered. If its not a threat, its mass removed.
Thats not actual interaction with the cards unless they're designed to work around hard counters....
like... Cascade for example. Rulings that ignore counter.dec.
I don't support the existence of such a deck as I think Hexproof is way too powerful, but I also think that Wizards already know this because the amount of hexproof creatures that we're seeing now is notoriously reduced after RTR.
They are still making mistakes though, I mean, if you check out the Gatecrash spoilers, theres 1 card that pops out over everything else and almost everyone is able to tell which one it is regardless of how long they've been playing the game.
Kinda what happened when Snapcaster Mage was previewed
Nor is there any one card that seems so amazing to me from GTC - unless you mean Ghost Council?
I'm fine with all of that.
The problem has always been the versatility of countermagic: "Counter target spell" as you said is generally too powerful since it lets you get away with just packing a full sideboard of counterspells instead of having to actually THINK about what cards are good in specific matchups.
Now, manacosts are obviously very important here.
Dissipate IS NOT a weak spell when we're in a GRAVEYARD themed standard.
While if you remove that text, Cancel is almost unplayable. The lesson is evaluating things in context.
No, it has an X in its casting cost.
Who didn't think Snapcaster was good?, don't take any advice from whoever told you that
From my time playing since Shards of Alara, blue has not been the majority dominant color. I'd argue that lies with Black, Red, or Green in varying spades. From Jund to Valakut, to Vamps, to Titan Ramp, to Birthing Pod, to RDW with Goblin Guide, blue had Caw Blade and Delver.
Even in Eternal formats blue isn't the most dominant. Especially not in Modern. Good lord is blue bad there. Also, it does take more skill to pilot a less variable environment. There's a reason Chess takes more skill than Magic, for instance. Or to take a more jarring example - Battleship takes considerably less skill than Starcraft.
How is the Bant mana base terrible? It is only missing Breeding Pool, and that is it. It has Hallowed Fountain, Glacial Fortress, Temple Garden, Sun Petal Grove, Hinterland Harbor, etc. Bant has probably the most stable mana base in standard right now for 3 color decks anyways.