Yes, people employ strategies with certain cards to win games. What is the point of that ridiculous run on sentence lol. I can come up with different end game scenarios as well but that'd be a waste of time.
The point is, while you're spending seven mana to play Lich and protect it, your opponent is winning the game.
IMO, he has no place in control. He costs too much and doesn't do enough. You need to stop using control as the only way to evaluate this card. It's a combo piece and is meant to be built around. He will not have a place in any deck that cannot take advantage of his ability and make his ability more cost effective (HS). That's it, it's pretty simple. Either cards will be released which allows him to reach his ceiling or they won't. I don't think anyone can deny the fact that unlimited reanimation could be strong in the right deck.
There is no RIGHT DECK. There is no combo piece to pair with him. There is no Perilous Myr, no Necropede. Even a Bottle Gnomes equivalent is entirely lacking from this format. If you aren't playing Lich in control, you're not playing him at all.
As to which I'd rather play? It depends on the context of the situation. If I wanted to I could ramble off arbitrary cards as well.
You don't base maindeck card choice by context and situation. You base maindeck card choice on what gives you the best chance to win every game 1 you play. Lich is never the correct answer to that "situation" for any deck in this standard format.
The point I'm trying to make is completely going over your head. I'm not saying Lich is good right now. I'm not retarded, it's not featured in any competitive decks. I'm saying that Lich has potential. Since it's optimally a combo piece, once we get the full set of shocks plus GTC and DGM I'd be utterly surprised if there weren't any viable combos with her out there.
The point is, while you're spending seven mana to play Lich and protect it, your opponent is winning the game.
There is no RIGHT DECK. There is no combo piece to pair with him. There is no Perilous Myr, no Necropede. Even a Bottle Gnomes equivalent is entirely lacking from this format. If you aren't playing Lich in control, you're not playing him at all.
You don't base maindeck card choice by context and situation. You base maindeck card choice on what gives you the best chance to win every game 1 you play. Lich is never the correct answer to that "situation" for any deck in this standard format.
The fact that you even suggested Mecurial Chemister in your last post puts you into question right there. He dies to a freaking Searing Spear. As for combo pieces in control, he actually does have the perfect buddy when HS is out. He makes a continuous Snapcaster Mage. He effectively becomes 2 Target instant or sorcery gains flashback until end of turn. That comes in handy when most burn spells (which Grixis Control plays much of) dont have flashback themselves. Additionally, he makes Olivia Voldaren much harder to keep dead.
The fact that you even suggested Mecurial Chemister in your last post puts you into question right there. He dies to a freaking Searing Spear. As for combo pieces in control, he actually does have the perfect buddy when HS is out. He makes a continuous Snapcaster Mage. He effectively becomes 2 Target instant or sorcery gains flashback until end of turn. That comes in handy when most burn spells (which Grixis Control plays much of) dont have flashback themselves.
Two problems with this scenario.
1) You need to cast the Snapcaster before HG gains his activated abilities. So if this worked (which it doesn't), it would become U2: 2 target spells gain flashback this turn, if Snapcaster is in the graveyard.
2) Snapcaster's ability is is a triggered ability, not an activated ability, HG doesn't gain anything extra from reanimating him.
1) You need to cast the Snapcaster before HG gains his activated abilities. So if this worked (which it doesn't), it would become U2: 2 target spells gain flashback this turn, if Snapcaster is in the graveyard.
2) Snapcaster's ability is is a triggered ability, not an activated ability, HG doesn't gain anything extra from reanimating him.
Uh no. With heartless it becomes U1 (I forgot the U mana). It costs 1 allow reanimation, and with heartless Snapcaster only costs U. Since Snapcaster has flash you effectively have given Havengul the ability to give any spell Flashback for 1U since you can cast Snapcaster at anytime.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
This thread is funny. I'm pretty sure one dude is saying lich is bad and the other is saying that lich may not be bad for long. While they both fail to see that that both are correct. Lich is bad right now AND could get better with the next set. It's really not that hard to see guys.
On to the actual card. This, bloodgift demon, and the myr are the only times I can see HS being worth it in standard. I miss free shocks at sorcery speed. Lol. But I think a weird 3 color control deck could maybe take form. 3-4 elvish visionaries, 4 elks, 2-4 tusks, 3-4 snapcaster. 1-2 black cat, 2-3 lich and then 4 farseek. 1-3 rangers path could help some. The elks, cat, elves and mages make tragic slip a 4 of. HS has to be 4 of also. Add a few more removes guys from play and add a few counters for something fun.
Uh no. With heartless it becomes U1 (I forgot the U mana). It costs 1 allow reanimation, and with heartless Snapcaster only costs U. Since Snapcaster has flash you effectively have given Havengul the ability to give any spell Flashback for 1U since you can cast Snapcaster at anytime.
Oops, my bad, I missed that you had Heartless Summoning. It's a fun interaction, but I don't think the 3 card combo would be worth competitively, especially since Summoning shrinks the Lich down to Searing Spear range.
Also, let's not forget Slum Reaper. As good as things like reaper, arrester, sanctifier, black cat, etc. are, you can't run too many of them. I think the best way to go with Havengul are to throw in some toolbox creatures, and then run sets of things like Dungeon Geists, Resto Angels, Snappys, and then a few bombs for good measure. Also, I think the other key is to run 4 forbidden alchemy as well. That card is too good with lich to not play it.
Also, let's not forget Slum Reaper. As good as things like reaper, arrester, sanctifier, black cat, etc. are, you can't run too many of them. I think the best way to go with Havengul are to throw in some toolbox creatures, and then run sets of things like Dungeon Geists, Resto Angels, Snappys, and then a few bombs for good measure. Also, I think the other key is to run 4 forbidden alchemy as well. That card is too good with lich to not play it.
Yeah, you need to treat them like Perilous Myr (only run 1) of last standard, as without Lich and HS on the field, he was sub-par.
The thing with Perilous Myr was that he was either clearing the board or winning games via burn when the combo went off. I'm not sure any of the other cards are worth increasing variance and decreasing threat density for. I am however going to be testing a single Elvish Visionary.
Im actually have a grixis deck im working on that uses Havengul Lich and Vexing Devil as a combo. I also use kill spells and Chromatic Lanterns to be able to summon somones Thrag,Snap, etc from their GY.
Im actually have a grixis deck im working on that uses Havengul Lich and Vexing Devil as a combo. I also use kill spells and Chromatic Lanterns to be able to summon somones Thrag,Snap, etc from their GY.
What's the "combo" w vexing devil? Are you sacing + recasting it over and over, or something?
yea basically. I usually get them down to 12 before i cast havengul Lich. I ramp with a keyrune or lantern into Lich. Afterwards I recast Vexing Devil. I also run 3 Olivia's, 3 Snappys, and 1 Thundermaw just incase things don't work out.
and some other stuff i cant think off the top of my head. I was thinking about sticking in one Jace, Memory Adept for a win-con against control and to help Havengul Lich have more targets.
Instead of Vexing Devil, run Malcontents. At worse you're pinging 1 damage for 1R, but if you add more humans that live and are still good (Huntmaster, Conscripts) you can be constantly pinging for 3, 4, even 5 damage all for 2cmc
Realistically he should only be unblockable without equipment
Guard 1: There goes a sword floating down the street!
Guard 2: Well, he's unblockable, so ignore it.
Eat your greens kids, omnath does, and it makes him strong....
Zealous Conscripts seems pretty good with Heartless Summoning and the Lich. 3 Mana to temporarily steal a permanent... Uh yeah. There just needs to be a good sac outlet in standard now...
Zealous Conscripts seems pretty good with Heartless Summoning and the Lich. 3 Mana to temporarily steal a permanent... Uh yeah. There just needs to be a good sac outlet in standard now...
He's a nightmare when you're playing midrange vs. midrange. Lich makes it so you can't trade at all or your opponent starts just taking your creatures. In a match that usually ends up with both players just building their board, having Lich to make it so you can attack and your opponent cannot block is pretty solid.
That is, of course, unless they have removal. But it's a toss up that if they don't have the removal for him it will completely shut down their ability to do much.
He's a nightmare when you're playing midrange vs. midrange. Lich makes it so you can't trade at all or your opponent starts just taking your creatures. In a match that usually ends up with both players just building their board, having Lich to make it so you can attack and your opponent cannot block is pretty solid.
That is, of course, unless they have removal. But it's a toss up that if they don't have the removal for him it will completely shut down their ability to do much.
If you deck can cater to him, this is what makes him an awesome late game top deck and something you don't mind holding back until your opponent has used most of his removal.
Interesting, this thread reminded me of this guy. Workin on making blue black mill. Yes janky and questionable I know. But I want to see how good I can make it, going with not a mill to kill, but mill for resources.
Interesting, this thread reminded me of this guy. Workin on making blue black mill. Yes janky and questionable I know. But I want to see how good I can make it, going with not a mill to kill, but mill for resources.
Well here's the deal. if you run a U/B Mill deck it would work as a self mill... and probably a lab maniac as a possible wincon. if you mill your opponent with only a U/B deck running the lich - you won't be able to get much use out of their graveyard unless they are running U or B creatures - you would need to splash or run chromatic lantern
The point is, while you're spending seven mana to play Lich and protect it, your opponent is winning the game.
There is no RIGHT DECK. There is no combo piece to pair with him. There is no Perilous Myr, no Necropede. Even a Bottle Gnomes equivalent is entirely lacking from this format. If you aren't playing Lich in control, you're not playing him at all.
You don't base maindeck card choice by context and situation. You base maindeck card choice on what gives you the best chance to win every game 1 you play. Lich is never the correct answer to that "situation" for any deck in this standard format.
The fact that you even suggested Mecurial Chemister in your last post puts you into question right there. He dies to a freaking Searing Spear. As for combo pieces in control, he actually does have the perfect buddy when HS is out. He makes a continuous Snapcaster Mage. He effectively becomes 2 Target instant or sorcery gains flashback until end of turn. That comes in handy when most burn spells (which Grixis Control plays much of) dont have flashback themselves. Additionally, he makes Olivia Voldaren much harder to keep dead.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Two problems with this scenario.
1) You need to cast the Snapcaster before HG gains his activated abilities. So if this worked (which it doesn't), it would become U2: 2 target spells gain flashback this turn, if Snapcaster is in the graveyard.
2) Snapcaster's ability is is a triggered ability, not an activated ability, HG doesn't gain anything extra from reanimating him.
Uh no. With heartless it becomes U1 (I forgot the U mana). It costs 1 allow reanimation, and with heartless Snapcaster only costs U. Since Snapcaster has flash you effectively have given Havengul the ability to give any spell Flashback for 1U since you can cast Snapcaster at anytime.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
On to the actual card. This, bloodgift demon, and the myr are the only times I can see HS being worth it in standard. I miss free shocks at sorcery speed. Lol. But I think a weird 3 color control deck could maybe take form. 3-4 elvish visionaries, 4 elks, 2-4 tusks, 3-4 snapcaster. 1-2 black cat, 2-3 lich and then 4 farseek. 1-3 rangers path could help some. The elks, cat, elves and mages make tragic slip a 4 of. HS has to be 4 of also. Add a few more removes guys from play and add a few counters for something fun.
This is the deck-list I just put together to try him out. Hopefully Gatecrash brings some stuff for this type of deck.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9520220#post9520220
Oops, my bad, I missed that you had Heartless Summoning. It's a fun interaction, but I don't think the 3 card combo would be worth competitively, especially since Summoning shrinks the Lich down to Searing Spear range.
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Yeah, you need to treat them like Perilous Myr (only run 1) of last standard, as without Lich and HS on the field, he was sub-par.
The thing with Perilous Myr was that he was either clearing the board or winning games via burn when the combo went off. I'm not sure any of the other cards are worth increasing variance and decreasing threat density for. I am however going to be testing a single Elvish Visionary.
In my experience, the most potent list currently is BUG, which uses Tracker's Instincts instead of Forbidden Alchemy (Instinct + Deathrite Shaman is a great combo), incorporates ramp so it doesn't solely rely on HS and abuses ETB effect via Evil Twin, Thragtusk, Acidic Slime, Sphinx of Uthuun and Griselbrand.
With 3 Snapcaster Mages and Dreadbore, the deck does okay. I just need to switch up a couple cards, maybe add a Duskmantle Guildmage and Memory Adept after rotation. Maybe the adept before rotation.
What's the "combo" w vexing devil? Are you sacing + recasting it over and over, or something?
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
3 Snapcasters, 3 Olivia Voldaren, 3 Havengul Lich, 4 Vexing Devil, 1 Thundermaw Hellkite, 2 Dreadbore, 3 Devastion Tide, 4 Temporal Mastery, 4 Chromatic Lantern, 3 Rakdos Keyrune, 1 Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
and some other stuff i cant think off the top of my head. I was thinking about sticking in one Jace, Memory Adept for a win-con against control and to help Havengul Lich have more targets.
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Thoughts on proxies:
Demonmail Hauberk, Grim Backwoods, Garruk, The Veil-Cursed, Grimgrin, Corpse-Born, and Slum Reaper are the cards with a sacrifice outlet that I think could be potentially good with Heartless Summoning.
That is, of course, unless they have removal. But it's a toss up that if they don't have the removal for him it will completely shut down their ability to do much.
If you deck can cater to him, this is what makes him an awesome late game top deck and something you don't mind holding back until your opponent has used most of his removal.
Well here's the deal. if you run a U/B Mill deck it would work as a self mill... and probably a lab maniac as a possible wincon. if you mill your opponent with only a U/B deck running the lich - you won't be able to get much use out of their graveyard unless they are running U or B creatures - you would need to splash or run chromatic lantern
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