Is it looking more and more like this guy's time to shine? Havengul Lich enabled some fun decks before rotation, however, once rotation happened the mana base became so good for other decks, that Havengul Lich fell away from being able to be noticed much. Not only that, but Havengul Lich was mostly used in fun decks because there wasn't a good way to cast any color of cards.
Well, with Return to Ravnica coming out, it brought Chromatic Lantern, and without doing any rotation talk, the mana base to use this card is going to be much more doable. Therefore, if there is an ramp-into-mana fixing style deck (similar to Omnidoor), could this card become more viable with all these factors?
My Thoughts:
I think this has a chance as a control finisher. With two good sweepers in the format (only one makes Lich more relevant) and the ability to soon run Esper viably, I think it will fair pretty well, especially using some control style creatures (like Rhox Faithmender or Thragtusk). I think that this will end up being a nice curve topper that allows people to gain extra reach by using their opponents decks, mostly Thragtusks, and can be abused with Alchemist's Refuge.
He has some useful tools like Slum Reaper, Ravenous Rats, Black Cat, and Alchemist's Apprentice.
If we get some nice BW and BU tools in the next block I think there might be enough depth to make a stable build with an acceptable toolbox which can support him. However one massive problem he may face is that there is already enough reanimator running around and as a result he has to battle through all the pre-existing hate. I'm not sure if there are enough good activated abilities floating around to make the other half of the ability relevant right now, but the CA machine is nice.
I've been hyping this guy up over at market street a lot over this past month. I came to this scary realization after running my Heartless BUG list that once we finish out the shocks I'd be able to splash a 4th (maybe even 5th) color and steal even more than just Tusk from my opponents graveyards. I think he can only get better with an expanded mana base and a larger card pool. I think he has an extremely high ceiling and am holding onto several play sets because of this. Oh, and the art is awesome.
Woah. Was it really so uncommon to play creatures from an opponent's graveyard that I forgot there was no "your graveyard" restriction on the card? Epic awesomeness! Guess who's playing Lich again, soon?
It's a good card, and if we can play him with other good cards, it could kinda work, couldn't it? Meta analysis is also rather correct in that the format is slower, and we could play opposing creatures if necessary.
I think it was simply that you wouldn't always find something in their yard worth its cost +1 mana verses what your deck had to offer.
Is there any way of properly abusing the lich with judge's familiar(s) in the yard? I know it's a bit of a mana hungry effect, but I like the fact that a protected lich can just generate huge amounts of card advantage when given some breathing room.
I think he's got lots of potential with Dimir coming out soon, and I picked up a couple of em since they're only around $3-4. I could easily seeing the same thing that happened with Hellrider happen with him.
No, you can't cast creature spells if the stack isn't clear.
Alchemist's Refuge
However the opportunity cost of 1GU plus 1 for HL seems to discourage that function. But it might catch a tired opponent off guard who tries to Sphinx's Rev on your endstep. Of-course you don't typically see those kinds of misplays until you get 4-5 rounds into a tournament.
I threw together a deck list a couple minutes ago in an attempt to utilize the interaction between Havengul and some other creatures that could support him.
Its just a preliminary design intended to ignite invention.
You're suggesting you want to use him to play the better creatures from your opponent's graveyard? Why not just play better creatures to begin with?
Lich has a P/T in line with the two most popular 3-drops in the format, and is way behind the curve for its mana cost. Strike 1.
His ability is almost entirely irrelevant the turn he ETB, which on its own has made better creatures like Isperia, Drogskull Reaver, and Balefire Dragon entirely unplayable. Strike 2.
He's worse than any other threat you could play unless your opponent is already ahead of you. Strike 3.
When do you want to draw this instead of a card that actively wins the game on its own?
You're suggesting you want to use him to play the better creatures from your opponent's graveyard? Why not just play better creatures to begin with?
It depends on the deck. The OP spoke of control, I spoke of a HS variant. In the deck I'm talking about there's a lot of value in constantly reoccurring cards out of the GY for cheap. Being able to tamper with my opponents GY is just icing on the cake.
Lich has a P/T in line with the two most popular 3-drops in the format, and is way behind the curve for its mana cost.
The P/T, although not totally irrelevant, means a lot less on a walking Unburial Rites. I'm pretty sure Smiter wouldn't cost 1GW if he was able to reanimate Tusk out of the GY. 5CMC is absolutely justifiable on a 4/4 with his ability.
His ability is almost entirely irrelevant the turn he ETB, which on its own has made better creatures like Isperia, Drogskull Reaver, and Balefire Dragon entirely unplayable.
There have been plenty of times I've used his ability upon summoning him. Again, it totally depends on the deck. Unlike your examples (which are also cleverly >5 CMC), he clearly can do something the turn he's summoned. Something along the lines of Perilous Myr could be released while Lich is in standard, our card pool is extremely limited right now.
He's worse than any other threat you could play unless your opponent is already ahead of you.
He caters to redundancy, ETB effects and turns all graveyards into a toolbox. He's an awesome late-game top. Again, in the context of which deck are you speaking of? You need to be more specific. In HS variants he is clearly not worse than any other threat I could draw into.
When do you want to draw this instead of a card that actively wins the game on its own?
That's the thing. You have to build around Lich to get optimal use out of him. That means you need to use HS and you need to use creatures with ETB effects. Before you say "well HS suck", we don't know what's going to be released in the the rest of the RTR block. U/B Heartless Havengul saw fringe play last format and due to color restrictions it was still rather limited. Now were going to have a full set of shocks which will only lead to more possible combinations. He's a good speculation pick up because he has a very high ceiling, I don't know how someone could not see this.
Back in the day my friend had the most amazing UB control deck. He used Royal Assassin and Icy Manipulator to tap and kill any creature you might play. At least 12 counterspells and card draw came from blue, along with 4 copies of Lobotomy. After he slowed the game down to stupidity, he would graciously allow you to cast a creature, at which point he would either Clone that creature or take it with Control Magic, thereafter beating you to death with your own win-con. That was it. His win-con was either taking or cloning your win-con and killing you with it. Amazing deck.
I love UB control and Havengul Lich is an amazingly evil win-con for it. Kind of like Mahamoti Djinn of the old days.
You're suggesting you want to use him to play the better creatures from your opponent's graveyard? Why not just play better creatures to begin with?
Meh if bug is viable with the next set I can see this guy complimenting some thragtusks in a deck. Maybe not a full set of lich but whatever.
Lich has a P/T in line with the two most popular 3-drops in the format, and is way behind the curve for its mana cost. Strike 1.
he's still fat (4/4 aint nothing to sneeze at) and is out of burn range and dodges the current terror effects in standard.
His ability is almost entirely irrelevant the turn he ETB, which on its own has made better creatures like Isperia, Drogskull Reaver, and Balefire Dragon entirely unplayable. Strike 2.
This is the crux of the problem isn't it? Though that is some hyperbole there are Drogskull reaver is the only one I'd put in the same league as lich and they are all much more expensive to play.
He's worse than any other threat you could play unless your opponent is already ahead of you. Strike 3.
Not really, its hard to beat a threat that likewise recurs your entire graveyard, or the opponents. And again he is a 4/4 on top of his utility so its not like he can't make himself a clock if he has to.
When do you want to draw this instead of a card that actively wins the game on its own?
Depends, I'd argue he is great against durdle control like decks as he is basically a one man army.
I dunno if lich is viable because as you said he doesn't have a eotb ability which seems to be a must these days but he saw fringe play in heartless and I can see him poking up again. He is very strong in the amount of CA he can produce.
I love lich as my favorite card in standard. Fact is he is only good with heartless summoning.
Yeah it's going to solely depend on how viable HS can become but like I said, our card pool is extremely limited right now. I'm betting HS will become more viable once GTC is released. HS and Lich are cards that can only get better as the card pools grows.
if you're playing blue you should be able to cast this guy at seven with a 2-cost counterspell ready to go.
You're casting this and holding mana for Negate while your opponent plays Thundermaw or combos out to mill you/take seven turns consecutively while killing you or chains Thragtusk or mills themselves into a Laboratory Maniac win or turns their one or two remaining zombies sideways for the win or burns you out in response to the Lich or turns their Smiter sideways putting you too far down which forces you to chump with your five mana investment. If you aren't playing Lich on turn 3/4 or immediately following a board sweeper, you're playing the wrong card.
He's bad in the only graveyard strategy in the format. For a card that only wins through the graveyard, that's usually a bad sign.
What would you rather play? This, or Bloodgift Demon?
What would you rather play? This, or Rakdos's Reutrn for 3?
What would you rather play? This, or Mercurial Chemister?
you could also use Heartless Summoning to play him 2 turns earlier, then reanimate creatures from your graveyard. I think it's a reanimator strategy worth investigating outside of unburial rites.
You're casting this and holding mana for Negate while your opponent plays Thundermaw or combos out to mill you/take seven turns consecutively while killing you or chains Thragtusk or mills themselves into a Laboratory Maniac win or turns their one or two remaining zombies sideways for the win or burns you out in response to the Lich or turns their Smiter sideways putting you too far down which forces you to chump with your five mana investment. If you aren't playing Lich on turn 3/4 or immediately following a board sweeper, you're playing the wrong card.
He's bad in the only graveyard strategy in the format. For a card that only wins through the graveyard, that's usually a bad sign.
What would you rather play? This, or Bloodgift Demon?
What would you rather play? This, or Rakdos's Reutrn for 3?
What would you rather play? This, or Mercurial Chemister?
Yes, people employ strategies with certain cards to win games. What is the point of that ridiculous run on sentence lol. I can come up with different end game scenarios as well but that'd be a waste of time.
IMO, he has no place in control. He costs too much and doesn't do enough. You need to stop using control as the only way to evaluate this card. It's a combo piece and is meant to be built around. He will not have a place in any deck that cannot take advantage of his ability and make his ability more cost effective (HS). That's it, it's pretty simple. Either cards will be released which allows him to reach his ceiling or they won't. I don't think anyone can deny the fact that unlimited reanimation could be strong in the right deck.
As to which I'd rather play? It depends on the context of the situation. If I wanted to I could ramble off arbitrary cards as well.
Well, with Return to Ravnica coming out, it brought Chromatic Lantern, and without doing any rotation talk, the mana base to use this card is going to be much more doable. Therefore, if there is an ramp-into-mana fixing style deck (similar to Omnidoor), could this card become more viable with all these factors?
My Thoughts:
I think this has a chance as a control finisher. With two good sweepers in the format (only one makes Lich more relevant) and the ability to soon run Esper viably, I think it will fair pretty well, especially using some control style creatures (like Rhox Faithmender or Thragtusk). I think that this will end up being a nice curve topper that allows people to gain extra reach by using their opponents decks, mostly Thragtusks, and can be abused with Alchemist's Refuge.
Thoughts?
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Seems like right now he could work alright in Grixis Control.
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If we get some nice BW and BU tools in the next block I think there might be enough depth to make a stable build with an acceptable toolbox which can support him. However one massive problem he may face is that there is already enough reanimator running around and as a result he has to battle through all the pre-existing hate. I'm not sure if there are enough good activated abilities floating around to make the other half of the ability relevant right now, but the CA machine is nice.
I think it was simply that you wouldn't always find something in their yard worth its cost +1 mana verses what your deck had to offer.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
?
Alchemist's Refuge
However the opportunity cost of 1GU plus 1 for HL seems to discourage that function. But it might catch a tired opponent off guard who tries to Sphinx's Rev on your endstep. Of-course you don't typically see those kinds of misplays until you get 4-5 rounds into a tournament.
Its just a preliminary design intended to ignite invention.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=474467
Lich has a P/T in line with the two most popular 3-drops in the format, and is way behind the curve for its mana cost. Strike 1.
His ability is almost entirely irrelevant the turn he ETB, which on its own has made better creatures like Isperia, Drogskull Reaver, and Balefire Dragon entirely unplayable. Strike 2.
He's worse than any other threat you could play unless your opponent is already ahead of you. Strike 3.
When do you want to draw this instead of a card that actively wins the game on its own?
It depends on the deck. The OP spoke of control, I spoke of a HS variant. In the deck I'm talking about there's a lot of value in constantly reoccurring cards out of the GY for cheap. Being able to tamper with my opponents GY is just icing on the cake.
The P/T, although not totally irrelevant, means a lot less on a walking Unburial Rites. I'm pretty sure Smiter wouldn't cost 1GW if he was able to reanimate Tusk out of the GY. 5CMC is absolutely justifiable on a 4/4 with his ability.
There have been plenty of times I've used his ability upon summoning him. Again, it totally depends on the deck. Unlike your examples (which are also cleverly >5 CMC), he clearly can do something the turn he's summoned. Something along the lines of Perilous Myr could be released while Lich is in standard, our card pool is extremely limited right now.
He caters to redundancy, ETB effects and turns all graveyards into a toolbox. He's an awesome late-game top. Again, in the context of which deck are you speaking of? You need to be more specific. In HS variants he is clearly not worse than any other threat I could draw into.
That's the thing. You have to build around Lich to get optimal use out of him. That means you need to use HS and you need to use creatures with ETB effects. Before you say "well HS suck", we don't know what's going to be released in the the rest of the RTR block. U/B Heartless Havengul saw fringe play last format and due to color restrictions it was still rather limited. Now were going to have a full set of shocks which will only lead to more possible combinations. He's a good speculation pick up because he has a very high ceiling, I don't know how someone could not see this.
Back in the day my friend had the most amazing UB control deck. He used Royal Assassin and Icy Manipulator to tap and kill any creature you might play. At least 12 counterspells and card draw came from blue, along with 4 copies of Lobotomy. After he slowed the game down to stupidity, he would graciously allow you to cast a creature, at which point he would either Clone that creature or take it with Control Magic, thereafter beating you to death with your own win-con. That was it. His win-con was either taking or cloning your win-con and killing you with it. Amazing deck.
I love UB control and Havengul Lich is an amazingly evil win-con for it. Kind of like Mahamoti Djinn of the old days.
Meh if bug is viable with the next set I can see this guy complimenting some thragtusks in a deck. Maybe not a full set of lich but whatever.
he's still fat (4/4 aint nothing to sneeze at) and is out of burn range and dodges the current terror effects in standard.
This is the crux of the problem isn't it? Though that is some hyperbole there are Drogskull reaver is the only one I'd put in the same league as lich and they are all much more expensive to play.
Not really, its hard to beat a threat that likewise recurs your entire graveyard, or the opponents. And again he is a 4/4 on top of his utility so its not like he can't make himself a clock if he has to.
Depends, I'd argue he is great against durdle control like decks as he is basically a one man army.
I dunno if lich is viable because as you said he doesn't have a eotb ability which seems to be a must these days but he saw fringe play in heartless and I can see him poking up again. He is very strong in the amount of CA he can produce.
if you're playing blue you should be able to cast this guy at seven with a 2-cost counterspell ready to go.
Doesn't immediately give you impact but will just give you a ton of value over time and can win the game single handed.
Lich costs a bit more, and relies on creatures in graveyards.
Olivia relies on a battlefield heavy in creatures.
I wonder if some people in this thread would've dismissed Olivia 4 months ago.
Yeah it's going to solely depend on how viable HS can become but like I said, our card pool is extremely limited right now. I'm betting HS will become more viable once GTC is released. HS and Lich are cards that can only get better as the card pools grows.
You're casting this and holding mana for Negate while your opponent plays Thundermaw or combos out to mill you/take seven turns consecutively while killing you or chains Thragtusk or mills themselves into a Laboratory Maniac win or turns their one or two remaining zombies sideways for the win or burns you out in response to the Lich or turns their Smiter sideways putting you too far down which forces you to chump with your five mana investment. If you aren't playing Lich on turn 3/4 or immediately following a board sweeper, you're playing the wrong card.
He's bad in the only graveyard strategy in the format. For a card that only wins through the graveyard, that's usually a bad sign.
What would you rather play? This, or Bloodgift Demon?
What would you rather play? This, or Rakdos's Reutrn for 3?
What would you rather play? This, or Mercurial Chemister?
Yes, people employ strategies with certain cards to win games. What is the point of that ridiculous run on sentence lol. I can come up with different end game scenarios as well but that'd be a waste of time.
IMO, he has no place in control. He costs too much and doesn't do enough. You need to stop using control as the only way to evaluate this card. It's a combo piece and is meant to be built around. He will not have a place in any deck that cannot take advantage of his ability and make his ability more cost effective (HS). That's it, it's pretty simple. Either cards will be released which allows him to reach his ceiling or they won't. I don't think anyone can deny the fact that unlimited reanimation could be strong in the right deck.
As to which I'd rather play? It depends on the context of the situation. If I wanted to I could ramble off arbitrary cards as well.
No, Havenful can only copy activated abilities, much like Necrotic Ooze.
Think, Niz-Mizzit Dracogenius, Griselbrand, Olivia Voldaren and etc.