Ok well when u face this deck and on turn 3 they swing 8 with a spectral flighted geist remember the toolbag on the forum told ya so when you ragequit
(i kid, i kid)
To be fair, only the extremely non-interactive decks have any trouble with this deck, which, is actually a fair amount in the current meta due to control seeing less play and Naya seeing more play (as well as RDW). I expect that to change. It was a good meta-call, that is it. It is not a deck that will stay around (E.g. consistency and redundancy).
Like i said before, noones calling it a top deck, but the deck has the ability like no other deck to completely blow you out with a good draw.
That's not true. RDW is faster, and decks like GW can have just as insane nut draws. Any deck can lucksac their nut draw, but that doesn't mean much. There is no way a Bant Enchant nut draw is going to beat my 4C Control nut draw for instance, but we gain zero having such a discussion. Is it good at what it aims to do? Hell yes. Does that really mean anything in the grand scheme? Depends on the meta. Right meta call means victory. That is it. No more, no less.
I've been playing the deck since roughly two weeks after RTR came out, and I would like to think I pioneer'd the deck archtype, even if someone else began the primer. My biggest problem has been against aggro decks. I am more than willing to play it, but I've been looking to other decks for throwing people for a loop. My meta at FNM hasn't gotten used to seeing the deck, even though they KNOW I play it.
I pioneer'd using Invisible Stalker last season for Haunted Humans, and was rebuffed. I didn't mind. I've been running cards that people dismissed for various reasons, and my meta usually expects me to be a ***** when doing stuff like this. I have harped on and on about the power of certain cards, and now people are beginning to see I was right.
I have no problems using this deck, and I love it. People don't think they can figure out how to beat it. I've already created a viable counter to the deck itself (the counter is 10/10 against it) and it also has a very solid matchup against other decks seeing a lot of play (Americles, American Midrange, any aggro deck, etc.). People just expect things to be handed to them.
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I'm making a red brew deck that runs 4x Magma quake's, 4x Pillars, 2x Bonfire of the damned's and sideboards 3x Rolling temblor. I think I'll be fine against bant enchant.
judging by everyone's responses i dont think anyone here has played against this deck at a high level.
Yes - i get it. its not an amazing thing. its beatable.
but it can be an insane deck when it draws good.
your basing everything off of sideboarding and having all the answers all the time.
it doesnt always work like that.
Like i was at an open and sideboarded in all my graveyard hate and defenses. Guess what? i didnt draw it or have enough time to cast it and got blown out both games in 5 turns with angel of glorys rise. Does that mean its unbeatable or amazing? No. but id prefer not to play those decks.
judging by everyone's responses i dont think anyone here has played against this deck at a high level.
Yes - i get it. its not an amazing thing. its beatable.
but it can be an insane deck when it draws good.
your basing everything off of sideboarding and having all the answers all the time.
it doesnt always work like that.
Like i was at an open and sideboarded in all my graveyard hate and defenses. Guess what? i didnt draw it or have enough time to cast it and got blown out both games in 5 turns with angel of glorys rise. Does that mean its unbeatable or amazing? No. but id prefer not to play those decks.
All decks can be insane when they 'draw good' aka god hand. That happens very rarely (dictated by statistics and probabilities). That isn't a good argument to make for a deck. Now, if you would have mentioned the fact that it is/was well placed in the meta, you might merit some attention, otherwise you're just mad you lost a game with your non-interactive deck against another non-interactive deck.
Yes, we all understand hexproof is a grave mistake by WoTC, but, it isn't like it is dominant. I'd much rather face Hexproof.dec than RDW, or B/R.dec. I don't like decks that have consistency. Give me your variance and I'll take my consistency.
Also, you're doing the opposite of what you're admonishing others for doing. Just because a Hexproof.dec runs Geist or Invisible Stalker doesn't mean they're going to draw them, just like you may not draw your answers. They run 8 Hexproof creatures - I run 13 answers M/B and 9 in my S/B. Most control decks will have a similar repertoire.
If RTR taught us anything it is that it is very cyclical and very Rock-Paper-Scissors-esque. Hexproof.dec very bad against Control, but good against Mid-range. It's no surprise it did well in a meta full of Mid-range. Expect to see more Control in the next one.
otherwise you're just mad you lost a game with your non-interactive deck against another non-interactive deck.
no i actually beat it.
i guess the fact it top 2'ed is no big deal.
Might be a fad.
how do you know what matchups those decks had?
were you there? did you watch every match?
Im aware decks come and go - but if you dont think this deck can be trouble your mistaken.
And stop throwing the zombie or rdw stuff. its way easier to deal with than a turn 3 attacking pumped geist.
i guess the fact it top 2'ed is no big deal.
Might be a fad.
how do you know what matchups those decks had?
were you there? did you watch every match?
Im aware decks come and go - but if you dont think this deck can be trouble your mistaken. And stop throwing the zombie or rdw stuff. its way easier to deal with than a turn 3 attacking pumped geist.
People have been playing that for a long time (See: UW aggro). The point you aren't seeing is the fact that RDW and B/R is consistent and powerful, which means that they have a much higher winning % than the Hexproof deck can ever hope to achieve because by definition it is very niche and very dependent on certain draws.
Perhaps the difference is I focus on DECKS and MATCH UPS, whereas you seem focused on CARDS. To me, that is a very misleading way to analyze Magic. I guess you've never played American mid-range before? Geist is a lot 'scarier' in that deck, but where is the heralding of it? Being able to spear/pillar/counter then snapcaster to guard your Geist is much more powerful than throwing on a Rancor or an Ethereal Armor.
In any event, I don't expect to see the deck much anymore (after Control comes in and stomps the next tournament), until the meta once again rotates to make it more favorable to play. The only reason it took first and second is because it was the right meta call. It's VERY good against certain decks, but very bad against others. The difference is B/R Aggro and RDW have good MU's and OK MU's. They're consistent. The only bad MU for B/R Aggro is ironically the mirror, hence, I take a deck like that more seriously than Hexproof.dec, especially when I all ready crush it.
I've been playing the deck since roughly two weeks after RTR came out, and I would like to think I pioneer'd the deck archtype, even if someone else began the primer. My biggest problem has been against aggro decks. I am more than willing to play it, but I've been looking to other decks for throwing people for a loop. My meta at FNM hasn't gotten used to seeing the deck, even though they KNOW I play it.
I pioneer'd using Invisible Stalker last season for Haunted Humans, and was rebuffed. I didn't mind. I've been running cards that people dismissed for various reasons, and my meta usually expects me to be a ***** when doing stuff like this. I have harped on and on about the power of certain cards, and now people are beginning to see I was right.
I have no problems using this deck, and I love it. People don't think they can figure out how to beat it. I've already created a viable counter to the deck itself (the counter is 10/10 against it) and it also has a very solid matchup against other decks seeing a lot of play (Americles, American Midrange, any aggro deck, etc.). People just expect things to be handed to them.
i also feel that the deck's biggest problem is aggro decks. not control as one person keeps claiming. of course we all run slightly different versions. mine doesnt run fencing ace but it does run loxodon smiters in the main for example.
i just want to add a little weight to your post if i can because i know you have been playing it since the beginning.
Ecnhantment removal cards and other specific hate cards are unrealistic.
How many of those can you put in SB? 2-3. What happens if you don't draw them? You hope they draw slow hand or you lose.
And it's not like those card autobeat them, geist and rancor can win through enchant removal, they play around 16 creatures so sacrifice effects aren't autowin either.
It's like playing against dredge. They play a different game entirely.
Ecnhantment removal cards and other specific hate cards are unrealistic.
How many of those can you put in SB? 2-3. What happens if you don't draw them? You hope they draw slow hand or you lose.
The only enchantment that many decks autolose to is Spectral Flight because flying creatures aren't that common so early into the game. So playing enchantment removal is absolutely realistic, because Spectral Flight is the only one you need to hit. Often you may even be able to 2-for-1 the bant guy if he thinks he's just going to fly over you. Playing against the deck does require you to mulligan until you find some type of enchantment removal, but if/when you do it is pretty much an auto win.
I jammed 4 Rays into my sideboard last night while on MODO, expecting to see this deck a lot. I surprisingly only played against it twice, and both times I won game 2 and 3 based on the fact that I knew what to expect those last two games. One of the games I won in exactly that fashion, too. Guy thought he was going to fly over me with his Geist, I Ray'd his Spectral Flight and blocked with Smiter. He pretty much fizzled out after losing his dude.
And this poster has broken, we need to shut everything down and fix whatever happened to this poor soul.
On the topic at hand, Bant Enchant is a deck that attempts to win without interacting with your opponent at all. I don't see how this is that different from say, Dragonstorm. That was a very popular standard deck, and its main gameplan was to storm up 4 Hellkites and instakill you. Valakut did similar things upon casting Primeval Titan.
People should treat the deck like it is, a creature based combo deck. Yes it's harder to interact with, and you interact on a different level than most decks in the meta, but most combo decks force you to do so. Sometimes it just gets its godhand and kills you, accept it and move on.
Ecnhantment removal cards and other specific hate cards are unrealistic.
How many of those can you put in SB? 2-3. What happens if you don't draw them? You hope they draw slow hand or you lose.
And it's not like those card autobeat them, geist and rancor can win through enchant removal, they play around 16 creatures so sacrifice effects aren't autowin either.
It's like playing against dredge. They play a different game entirely.
Because people just assume its a junky deck or dismiss it cause its not a 'real' deck
Its just as likely you dont draw answers as they draw a big threat.
Its a coinflip. I.prefer not to do that. As stated many times, i don't think its a dominant deck. But like infect , if they catch u ur screwed.
Go with Charm, I had this hand Rancor rancor armor Temple garden Hallowed fountain Spectral flight and a cavern, if the charm would have been a curiosity I wouldn't have won turn 4.
charm over curiosity all day. I still run the fencing ace though. The only other option IMO is strangleroot geist, which can be kinda hard on the mana.
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i remember playing against this deck on game day. it stomped me 2-0 while i was playing jund. it really pissed me off, because the player playing it was also completely horrible at this game.
but i couldnt interact with it so no matter how much better i am at magical cards than him i had no chance to win really. i think this is definitely a real deck, and will most likely warp the meta.
A. Yes, if the deck becomes popular enough, that is a completely reasonable thing to do. You can't make your maindeck match much better against it. It's much like Infect in that regard. You lose to it game 1, and beat it much easier after sideboard.
B. When you have 4 of them, it's hard not to draw at least 1. And knowing the matchup, you should be mulling accordingly. Drawing 1 in your opening hand basically ruins their turn 3 or 4 start.
C. Then this is a bad match up for you and you are likely going to need to play better removal. As I said, they only have 8 creatures in their decklist that have Hexproof, leaving 14 to 16 other dudes for you to shoot down.
you speak like somebody who has never played the match up.
be honest, have you even played the matchup?
they ONLY have 8 hexproof creatures, but i promise you they are not actually planning on riding to victory on silverblade enchanted up or charm enchanted up. they ARE going to play a hexproof guy against you. its inevitable. if your way to win is hoping they dont draw a hexproof guy, then you're just fooling yourself.
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To be fair, only the extremely non-interactive decks have any trouble with this deck, which, is actually a fair amount in the current meta due to control seeing less play and Naya seeing more play (as well as RDW). I expect that to change. It was a good meta-call, that is it. It is not a deck that will stay around (E.g. consistency and redundancy).
That's not true. RDW is faster, and decks like GW can have just as insane nut draws. Any deck can lucksac their nut draw, but that doesn't mean much. There is no way a Bant Enchant nut draw is going to beat my 4C Control nut draw for instance, but we gain zero having such a discussion. Is it good at what it aims to do? Hell yes. Does that really mean anything in the grand scheme? Depends on the meta. Right meta call means victory. That is it. No more, no less.
I pioneer'd using Invisible Stalker last season for Haunted Humans, and was rebuffed. I didn't mind. I've been running cards that people dismissed for various reasons, and my meta usually expects me to be a ***** when doing stuff like this. I have harped on and on about the power of certain cards, and now people are beginning to see I was right.
I have no problems using this deck, and I love it. People don't think they can figure out how to beat it. I've already created a viable counter to the deck itself (the counter is 10/10 against it) and it also has a very solid matchup against other decks seeing a lot of play (Americles, American Midrange, any aggro deck, etc.). People just expect things to be handed to them.
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Yes - i get it. its not an amazing thing. its beatable.
but it can be an insane deck when it draws good.
your basing everything off of sideboarding and having all the answers all the time.
it doesnt always work like that.
Like i was at an open and sideboarded in all my graveyard hate and defenses. Guess what? i didnt draw it or have enough time to cast it and got blown out both games in 5 turns with angel of glorys rise. Does that mean its unbeatable or amazing? No. but id prefer not to play those decks.
All decks can be insane when they 'draw good' aka god hand. That happens very rarely (dictated by statistics and probabilities). That isn't a good argument to make for a deck. Now, if you would have mentioned the fact that it is/was well placed in the meta, you might merit some attention, otherwise you're just mad you lost a game with your non-interactive deck against another non-interactive deck.
Yes, we all understand hexproof is a grave mistake by WoTC, but, it isn't like it is dominant. I'd much rather face Hexproof.dec than RDW, or B/R.dec. I don't like decks that have consistency. Give me your variance and I'll take my consistency.
Also, you're doing the opposite of what you're admonishing others for doing. Just because a Hexproof.dec runs Geist or Invisible Stalker doesn't mean they're going to draw them, just like you may not draw your answers. They run 8 Hexproof creatures - I run 13 answers M/B and 9 in my S/B. Most control decks will have a similar repertoire.
If RTR taught us anything it is that it is very cyclical and very Rock-Paper-Scissors-esque. Hexproof.dec very bad against Control, but good against Mid-range. It's no surprise it did well in a meta full of Mid-range. Expect to see more Control in the next one.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
no i actually beat it.
i guess the fact it top 2'ed is no big deal.
Might be a fad.
how do you know what matchups those decks had?
were you there? did you watch every match?
Im aware decks come and go - but if you dont think this deck can be trouble your mistaken.
And stop throwing the zombie or rdw stuff. its way easier to deal with than a turn 3 attacking pumped geist.
People have been playing that for a long time (See: UW aggro). The point you aren't seeing is the fact that RDW and B/R is consistent and powerful, which means that they have a much higher winning % than the Hexproof deck can ever hope to achieve because by definition it is very niche and very dependent on certain draws.
Perhaps the difference is I focus on DECKS and MATCH UPS, whereas you seem focused on CARDS. To me, that is a very misleading way to analyze Magic. I guess you've never played American mid-range before? Geist is a lot 'scarier' in that deck, but where is the heralding of it? Being able to spear/pillar/counter then snapcaster to guard your Geist is much more powerful than throwing on a Rancor or an Ethereal Armor.
In any event, I don't expect to see the deck much anymore (after Control comes in and stomps the next tournament), until the meta once again rotates to make it more favorable to play. The only reason it took first and second is because it was the right meta call. It's VERY good against certain decks, but very bad against others. The difference is B/R Aggro and RDW have good MU's and OK MU's. They're consistent. The only bad MU for B/R Aggro is ironically the mirror, hence, I take a deck like that more seriously than Hexproof.dec, especially when I all ready crush it.
R.I.P. Bant Enchant.
i also feel that the deck's biggest problem is aggro decks. not control as one person keeps claiming. of course we all run slightly different versions. mine doesnt run fencing ace but it does run loxodon smiters in the main for example.
i just want to add a little weight to your post if i can because i know you have been playing it since the beginning.
I'm not sure what people are even debating in this thread.
Is Bant Enchant now apart of the meta? Yeah, probably unless it's somehow never played again.
Can it be hosed? Yeah, but most decks can even if Bant Enchant is a bit narrow-minded.
How many of those can you put in SB? 2-3. What happens if you don't draw them? You hope they draw slow hand or you lose.
And it's not like those card autobeat them, geist and rancor can win through enchant removal, they play around 16 creatures so sacrifice effects aren't autowin either.
It's like playing against dredge. They play a different game entirely.
The only enchantment that many decks autolose to is Spectral Flight because flying creatures aren't that common so early into the game. So playing enchantment removal is absolutely realistic, because Spectral Flight is the only one you need to hit. Often you may even be able to 2-for-1 the bant guy if he thinks he's just going to fly over you. Playing against the deck does require you to mulligan until you find some type of enchantment removal, but if/when you do it is pretty much an auto win.
I jammed 4 Rays into my sideboard last night while on MODO, expecting to see this deck a lot. I surprisingly only played against it twice, and both times I won game 2 and 3 based on the fact that I knew what to expect those last two games. One of the games I won in exactly that fashion, too. Guy thought he was going to fly over me with his Geist, I Ray'd his Spectral Flight and blocked with Smiter. He pretty much fizzled out after losing his dude.
Because we care about facts.
And this poster has broken, we need to shut everything down and fix whatever happened to this poor soul.
On the topic at hand, Bant Enchant is a deck that attempts to win without interacting with your opponent at all. I don't see how this is that different from say, Dragonstorm. That was a very popular standard deck, and its main gameplan was to storm up 4 Hellkites and instakill you. Valakut did similar things upon casting Primeval Titan.
People should treat the deck like it is, a creature based combo deck. Yes it's harder to interact with, and you interact on a different level than most decks in the meta, but most combo decks force you to do so. Sometimes it just gets its godhand and kills you, accept it and move on.
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Because people just assume its a junky deck or dismiss it cause its not a 'real' deck
Its just as likely you dont draw answers as they draw a big threat.
Its a coinflip. I.prefer not to do that. As stated many times, i don't think its a dominant deck. But like infect , if they catch u ur screwed.
I saw one list ran Fencing Ace and Curiousity
The other one ran 4 Selesnya Charm
oh mah god, can it play magic on it? I want a sports cat and play magic at the same time.
Dega midrange 1-0
Go with Charm, I had this hand Rancor rancor armor Temple garden Hallowed fountain Spectral flight and a cavern, if the charm would have been a curiosity I wouldn't have won turn 4.
Dega midrange 1-0
charm over curiosity all day. I still run the fencing ace though. The only other option IMO is strangleroot geist, which can be kinda hard on the mana.
Modern:
Twinning End
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Mayael the Anema
but i couldnt interact with it so no matter how much better i am at magical cards than him i had no chance to win really. i think this is definitely a real deck, and will most likely warp the meta.
you speak like somebody who has never played the match up.
be honest, have you even played the matchup?
they ONLY have 8 hexproof creatures, but i promise you they are not actually planning on riding to victory on silverblade enchanted up or charm enchanted up. they ARE going to play a hexproof guy against you. its inevitable. if your way to win is hoping they dont draw a hexproof guy, then you're just fooling yourself.