The only hesitancy i would have with mainboard Treasons is that, and I am not exaggerating, half my games online seem to be against G/R Monsters Devotion or Mono U Devotion. Both those decks have nice targets to steal, but both those decks also have enough weenies to just chump block, thus not really accomplishing anything. A Polukranos for one turn might sound nice, but then they block with a Mystic Elf, it was pretty pointless. I dont see it maindeckable as it isnt useful against enough decks at random. Maybe in your FNM there is more midrange, but in the 8 person tournaments that you need to pay 6 tickets to enter into online and the 8 ticket daily's, its not justifiable, IMO. You'll see BW or Dega maybe once, but probably not at all.
Legion Loyalist was a staple in RTR Block last season in RDW and I thought it would be again, but then along came Firedrinker. People love their 2 power one drops, but LL is def a pain in their butt. Especially since they are not playing much removal. It could work, i might test it, but then you are def relying on 3 creature attacks a lot with Firefist and LL. However, once you get that 3 creature attack rolling, it is hard to stop.
EDIT:: However, LL was much better when people played Madcap Skills maindeck in RTR Block on their LL. In this standard, i guess your LL would just die too easily, firstrike or not, so he essentially protects your bigger creatures for one turn...
Red thirst has it right. The moment you realize devotion isn't the way RDW is to be built, the sooner you start winning against the decks in the format.
The only reason fanatic won the first week is the same reason I won with Wolf Run Red the first week of Standard last season. It curves out and punishes poorly built decks by being the best poorly built deck.
Trust me. Get rid of fanatic. Run more burn and run Chandra.
Yeah I disagree still. But the thing is, your meta and my meta might be completely different. Right now I barely even have a meta, and even if I were back in Boston where events fire twice weekly, I'd still be waiting for things to settle down before I decided what was good or not.
To be honest, RDW is just a bridge deck for me right now. I'm playing it until I get all the cards for bigger Red (devotion with Purph and Stormbreath), G/R Ramp/BardNarson.dec, and probably Orzhov Midrange. I don't think that my build of Red is the best or anything, it's just the build I'm focused on tuning right now.
The fact that Supreme Verdict is very good right now won't prevent people from playing Devotion decks. The cycle will flow as it always does, but people will play whatever deck they are most invested in, especially this early on.
However, I don't think that the faster RDW decks without Fanatic are any better vs the expected metagame on a general scale. Sure you can go under some decks that run sweepers, but Anger of the Gods still destroys you. And G/W just walls you completely, as opposed to the Devotion builds that can go over the top with Fanatic. Master of Waves seems worse when you can't finish the game by turn 4 anyway, and now you're deck is mono 1-2 drops. At least Fanatic can reach past them and help race.
If I cut Fanatic as my 4-drop, I would probably just not play 4-drops outside of maybe a couple Chandras somewhere in the 75. She is absolutely stellar, but she isn't pushing through damage any better than Fanatic in a sweeper-based world. She's great at grinding, but what deck are you going to beat in the midgame with a buncha 2/1's?
Anyway, I'm not even clear which deck you are recommending that opts out of Fanatic right now. Can you show me a list?
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Yeah I disagree still. But the thing is, your meta and my meta might be completely different. Right now I barely even have a meta, and even if I were back in Boston where events fire twice weekly, I'd still be waiting for things to settle down before I decided what was good or not.
To be honest, RDW is just a bridge deck for me right now. I'm playing it until I get all the cards for bigger Red (devotion with Purph and Stormbreath), G/R Ramp/BardNarson.dec, and probably Orzhov Midrange. I don't think that my build of Red is the best or anything, it's just the build I'm focused on tuning right now.
The fact that Supreme Verdict is very good right now won't prevent people from playing Devotion decks. The cycle will flow as it always does, but people will play whatever deck they are most invested in, especially this early on.
However, I don't think that the faster RDW decks without Fanatic are any better vs the expected metagame on a general scale. Sure you can go under some decks that run sweepers, but Anger of the Gods still destroys you. And G/W just walls you completely, as opposed to the Devotion builds that can go over the top with Fanatic. Master of Waves seems worse when you can't finish the game by turn 4 anyway, and now you're deck is mono 1-2 drops. At least Fanatic can reach past them and help race.
If I cut Fanatic as my 4-drop, I would probably just not play 4-drops outside of maybe a couple Chandras somewhere in the 75. She is absolutely stellar, but she isn't pushing through damage any better than Fanatic in a sweeper-based world. She's great at grinding, but what deck are you going to beat in the midgame with a buncha 2/1's?
Anyway, I'm not even clear which deck you are recommending that opts out of Fanatic right now. Can you show me a list?
Big Red seems to have the advantage, as it's nearly just as fast as the RDW builds we've been seeing plus able to finish games definitively with Stormbreath. Honestly, if I had the dragon I'd run him. My friends are hoarding them like gold.
as of now my mainboard is looking like lewisCBR's list with the 3 shock and 3 jets and possibly a chainwalker in place of a fanatic. not sure on the meta game since it's gameday, but last night (FNM) i saw a fair amount of control. was picking up cards so didn't really get to test the deck sadly. i kinda need help on my sideboard.
RDW doesn't need the Fanatic. Trying to force the Fanatic into it is attempting to elbow RDW down a path that I'm not sure it wants to go. I suppose you could always have him in the sideboard for the Devotion match-ups, but I'm not sure I'd even do that.
I don't understand how a value creature that provides direct damage/reach attached to a reasonably aggressive body doesn't fit in RDW. Flooding the board with guys is exactly what we do. A card that rewards us for doing so, especially when we've hit a board stall, seems to fit RDW pretty well. Yes, the Fanatic lists require cards like BTE, Boros Reckoner, Ash Zealot, and Chandra's Phoenix to be optimal. But those cards are already good, so I don't really see the loss here.
As far as the Hellrider comparison, yes Fanatic is worse. But the point is Fanatic is our closest replacement right now, and it's really not that much worse. Not having haste is the biggest loss, and the fact that you don't get the triggers every turn is also a minor loss in power. But the fact that just having a Reckoner and Zealot/BTE in play when you cast the Fanatic represents 6 damage easily makes up for what Hellrider would have provided in a similar board state. Rakdos Cackler is no Goblin Guide, but we're still happy to play him since it's the closest option we have in current standard.
I don't think Fanatic is necessary, but I choose to play a version of RDW where each card is inherently powerful, rather than relying on flooding the board early with guys that aren't strong on their own. BTE, Zealot, Phoenix, Reckoner, and SB Frostburn Wierd are all very reasonable creatures on their own, so I'm more than happy to get the extra bonus from Fanatic for playing those cards. As long as I get an average of 3 damage from my Fanatics I'm happy, which isn't hard to do if you play carefully and save a Burning-Tree Emissary in your hand against sweeper decks. In my opinion, the biggest reason to play a version that uses less devotion cards is so you can play 4 Mutavault, which is the one thing I'm sad to miss out on in my build. For reference, this is what I'm taking to Game Day today:
Again, I'm not saying this is the best build of RDW or anything, but I think it's positioned nicely between being too small and too big. I still haven't seen any lists from all of you folks saying how bad Fanatic is, so please post what you guys are playing when you get a chance. Good luck this weekend to all of you playing, regardless of what type of Red spells you are slinging!
Another, Fanatic-less build. This was built around z's original idea for PyroRed. I've had a great amount of success with this deck. The synergies are quite incredible, and it requires close attention to the board state to play and win.
Fanatic is obviously a good card, but it's certainly not the only game in town for red decks this season.
I don't understand how a value creature that provides direct damage/reach attached to a reasonably aggressive body doesn't fit in RDW. Flooding the board with guys is exactly what we do. A card that rewards us for doing so, especially when we've hit a board stall, seems to fit RDW pretty well. Yes, the Fanatic lists require cards like BTE, Boros Reckoner, Ash Zealot, and Chandra's Phoenix to be optimal. But those cards are already good, so I don't really see the loss here.
As far as the Hellrider comparison, yes Fanatic is worse. But the point is Fanatic is our closest replacement right now, and it's really not that much worse. Not having haste is the biggest loss, and the fact that you don't get the triggers every turn is also a minor loss in power. But the fact that just having a Reckoner and Zealot/BTE in play when you cast the Fanatic represents 6 damage easily makes up for what Hellrider would have provided in a similar board state. Rakdos Cackler is no Goblin Guide, but we're still happy to play him since it's the closest option we have in current standard.
I don't think Fanatic is necessary, but I choose to play a version of RDW where each card is inherently powerful, rather than relying on flooding the board early with guys that aren't strong on their own. BTE, Zealot, Phoenix, Reckoner, and SB Frostburn Wierd are all very reasonable creatures on their own, so I'm more than happy to get the extra bonus from Fanatic for playing those cards. As long as I get an average of 3 damage from my Fanatics I'm happy, which isn't hard to do if you play carefully and save a Burning-Tree Emissary in your hand against sweeper decks. In my opinion, the biggest reason to play a version that uses less devotion cards is so you can play 4 Mutavault, which is the one thing I'm sad to miss out on in my build. For reference, this is what I'm taking to Game Day today:
Again, I'm not saying this is the best build of RDW or anything, but I think it's positioned nicely between being too small and too big. I still haven't seen any lists from all of you folks saying how bad Fanatic is, so please post what you guys are playing when you get a chance. Good luck this weekend to all of you playing, regardless of what type of Red spells you are slinging!
I'll basically be running the same thing but +1 Mutavault and Magma Jets are a no go. Shock seems to work out better bringing the Phoenix back.
I got 4th place at States. However, I'm considering revamping my list from that link. I'm seeing my local meta shift away from UW(x) Control decks, to a lot of midrange, and GW stuff. At this point I'm practically siding in Boros Reckoner into every game. Do I cut the Fanatics so I can keep a relatively low curve? I love having a deck that spills out it's hand quickly, and the last thing I want is to switch to a deck that has too many 3-drops or 4-drops.
You know who else is great for bringing back the Phoenix? Chandra herself. With the Phoenix, her +1 might as well include Draw a Card as part of its text.
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Hi everyone, I have a general question about Frostburn Weird. I have seen the card in a lot of sideboards and was wonder in what matchups it is sided in against? I myself played two in the sideboard upon suggestion, but I never found myself siding them in because I was unsure of their purpose.
I’ve tested the Pyromancer build in our local meta, but it’s suboptimal when you face lots of aggro and midrange (Esper is easy anyway). The aggro-devotion build (23 land, no dragons) is awesome; I won’t come back. I’ve won our local Game Day while losing only 2 games out of 7 matches.
went 4-1 drew to top 8 won against the mirror and top 4 just all split
orzhov midrange- 2-0
rg midrange ramp- 2-0
big red- 2-0
selesnya aggro- 0-2
mono green aggro- drew; played it out for fun and won 3 straight games with mb
top 8:
devotion red- 2-0
It was a new meta to me so I just played something aggressive for fun. Still messing around with the shredfreak, and he wasnt that bad. pushed through orzhov for a few swings when all he hand in hand were doom blades. goblin shortcutter as a 2 of was impressive, as he usually was a t3 play letting me swing in another 4 damage with my other 1 and 2 drops. Think im going to test out seismic stomp against selesnya. i can play the control until they start flashing in advent of the wurm, so I'll see if that helps swing in enough damage to get to the red zone.
Can you tell us anything about your games Zemanjaski?
Ideally just how is Young Pyromancer doing?
I've just started back in MtG after missing out on M14 and Theros releases so still trying to gather the cards. Y. Pyromancer looked cool but some people saying it wasn't very good.
Went back to my first FNM in months and 4-0'd using cheap aggro with 12 1 drops cackler/denizen/satyr, no Zealots.
In saying that I didn't play against any of the great decks / players, managed to dodge Mono U and Mihara's PT build. Bombed in Gamesday with it due to alot of flooding but I was enjoying the cheap red style so definitely going to try your list i reckon
Young Pyromancer is just an unreal busted card. They take over games against aggro, or they give you huge value against control, greatly improving all your burn (which is slightly sub-optimal against control). He gets even better post-board when you're often taking out 1 drops for more spells, which means more triggers.
And sometimes you have multiples in play.
Having Chandra, YP and Phoenix let you run more burn than normal without them ever truly being bad. This helps you close out games through resistance more easily, but also lets you not commit to the board as heavily.
Check out the links in my sig; you'll find all you could ever want and more. There's some reports, video and a matchup guide and I'm hoping to have another article up in a day or two. The hardest thing about the deck is understanding how your role changes; you're often a tempo or control deck and not an aggro deck.
It's a very difficult deck to play well, because it's built around synergies and now raw card power. So do a lot of reading, join in the discussion then jump in and test heaps.
The MonoR version is better against black based midrange (mono black, BW, BR, Dega) and Control, so look at that variant if that's what you're facing. The Boris version wrecks aggro/midrange metas. Both versions beat control.
Oh I'm so sorry, thought I had included it. It was:
- 18 Mountain: and
- 4 Mutavault.
It's very aggressive and reliable. You're making a HEAP of concessions to run 4 Mutavault (it would be better to have 20 red sources honestly) as you can't have Reckoner. This variant isn't great in the Devotion Red decks with MD Reckoner; but it's really good against AIR and Big Red. It's fantastic against control and black based decks.
If you're facing a lot of midrange I wouldn't pick this 75; you e got to adapt to your environment. Right now on MODO, everyone's playing mono red (favourable matchup), control variants (very favourable) and doom blade.dek variants (good), so I'm really enjoying the deck. If everyone goes back to Junk of GR midrange ill play something different.
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I'm curious as to what makes your build strong against the Red mirrors, especially the bigger Red decks. My experience with the Fanatic build was that the bigger Red decks generally go over the top with something like Purphoros or Stormbreath Dragon after the initial trading back and forth of creatures. Ash Zealot, Boros Reckoner, and Frostburn Weird are all great blockers, and they still run enough removal to hit your key creatures while blocking the rest. Flames of the Firebrand seems quite strong against your build post board as well, but maybe that's not too popular online. There are obviously times where it's just an early race, in which case I can see your build beating the other builds to the finish line, but it seems like if you miss out on that window the bigger red decks will just take over.
It might just a case of Little Red > Big (Devotion) Red > Mid (Fanatic Red) > Little Red. But in my experience in paper, I'd rather be on the side of the table that's casting Stormbreath Dragon and Purphoros.
As for Fanatic of Mogis, I'm still convinced he's worth it, at least in my build. There were a couple games where I couldn't cast him on time, and maybe once when he only dealt 1 damage, but there were several games where Fanatic won me the game. There were also a couple times where drawing him would have ended the game immediately in a game that was slipping out of my grasp. I even considered +0 Chandra once to try and find a game-winning Fanatic, but ended up being able to attack through a Fiendslayer Paladin with her +1 for exactsies.
Chandra was pretty awesome in SB games for sure, but again there were a few times I couldn't cast her on time, and also a couple times where I could cast her, but wouldn't get enough value out of her before she died. Defending Chandra was pretty key to making her actually good, since she doesn't impact the game that much the first two turns or so. I still think she's a house, but I'm more apt to play a long game with her, siding into Weirds and getting much less aggressive. I kept in Fanatics in every game, but I also didn't face any decks with sweepers.
I could see myself playing the faster version of RDW and dropping Fanatic, but not in a meta with so many other Red and Aggro decks lurking about. The MODO meta is a very different animal, and I'm sure whatever works there isn't necessarily the best thing for everyone's local scene.
Been bouncing around the start of the season from Naya to Gruul but with tournament season here I'm going to be rolling Red with you guys. Spent a good time reading Z's posts and am better for it.
...but the Firedrinkers I ordered got lost in the mail so I had to work around it. I still think I'd prefer to have them in the MD. Fortunately it wasn't disastrous.
Sideboard is still a work in progress. The most useful cards out of there were Weird, Peak Eruption and Mortars. The rest I think could flux... I'd like to put at least a couple Chandra's in.
*BTE is in for testing, as games on the draw against:
- doom blade decks where you don't have a 1 drop; or
- red mirrors where you have a zealot to block and they kill it;
Where problematic. Getting two bodies into play or body + removal is huge in each of these situations.
Even against control, on the play, missing a 1 drop then going BTE + guy catches you up to where you want to be substantially (~8 damage before they can wrath).
@ HomelandZercurity, there wasnt a question in there so I'm assuming you we're just thinking loudly?
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I'm curious as to what makes your build strong against the Red mirrors, especially the bigger Red decks.
That was my question, but to rephrase with proper punctuation:
What about your build matches up favorably in the Mono-Red mirrors, specifically against decks with Reckoners main and Weirds in the board?
To summarize my defense of Fanatic of Mogis, then I'll rest my case:
From what I've seen on the posted MODO results recently, Fanatic of Mogis seems to be consistently appearing in most of the red builds. It looks like most of the Red pilots are using Fanatic, whether it's in a midrange build with around 22 lands, or in the Devotion builds with Nykthos, Purphoros and Stormbreath Dragon. A smaller subset of Red mages have been having some success with faster lists that don't use Fanatic (but get to play 4 Mutavault), but they aren't as common. Notably, Chandra is at most a 2-3 of in most builds, usually in the board, whereas Fanatic is consistently a 4-of maindeck.
To clarify, I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing not to play Fanatic: if it's working for you, don't fix it. But it's clear that it's not some overrated flash in the pan either, it really is that good. (This is mostly directed at Redthirst and DXI-Edge).
Lately I have been playing Z's build, and I am fairly happy without FoM against anything with removal, however, a select few decks (namely MUD and GWaggro) have I wanted to have a Fanatic, why? Because sometimes I was going into mid game against decks that get too big for me to handle, so I threw Fanatics in my sideboard.
To be honest, I am setting aside the deck for now and playing something else.
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That was my question, but to rephrase with proper punctuation:
What about your build matches up favorably in the Mono-Red mirrors, specifically against decks with Reckoners main and Weirds in the board?
To summarize my defense of Fanatic of Mogis, then I'll rest my case:
From what I've seen on the posted MODO results recently, Fanatic of Mogis seems to be consistently appearing in most of the red builds. It looks like most of the Red pilots are using Fanatic, whether it's in a midrange build with around 22 lands, or in the Devotion builds with Nykthos, Purphoros and Stormbreath Dragon. A smaller subset of Red mages have been having some success with faster lists that don't use Fanatic (but get to play 4 Mutavault), but they aren't as common. Notably, Chandra is at most a 2-3 of in most builds, usually in the board, whereas Fanatic is consistently a 4-of maindeck.
To clarify, I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing not to play Fanatic: if it's working for you, don't fix it. But it's clear that it's not some overrated flash in the pan either, it really is that good. (This is mostly directed at Redthirst and DXI-Edge).
RE: Fanatic of Mogis.
If you look at it's results on MODO, that build has gone from ~30% of the meta to ~20% in the last week, and I think it'll keep dropping. Some of this is due to people wanting to try new decks (now that they've won all their money!) but also because MBC and BW are big players now and the devotion decks are poorly positioned here (relative to the other red variants).
So Fanatic is bad against what people are playing in my meta (MODO). I make no comment on any other environment. I'm firmly in the camp of WAAC so if Fanatic would give me a higher win % I'd play Fanatic in a heart beat. I don't see any reason why discussion of the card needs to go further honestly.
RE: Rx Semi-Mirrors.
The key cards in the matchups are (in order of importance):
- Boros Reckoner;
- Chandra's Phoenix;
- Flames of the Firebrand; and
- Ash Zealot.
Beyond that, burn is super important. Mutavault is super important.
My experience is that the value of them having Reckoner more or less beeajs even with your having access to Mutavault and more burn. Because you're Whitlock away their board, Fanatic is typically ultra low impact.
A resolved Chandra is pretty much unbeatable.
The games are usually aggressive 1-for-1 trades, then I win with Mutavaults or Chandra. I effectively have 4 more spells than they do and more ways to rebuy Phoenix.
Now, the multiple Reckoner draws are very tough, but outside of that I feel I have a small edge (probably 55-45 or slightly better).
How much of that is due to experience I leave up to readers.
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Well for starters, thanks for your answer Z. Obviously your build is still working well for you, as going 4-0 last night against 3 of the major Devotion decks and Esper is a great showing. Again, I'm not doubting your deck at all. Young Pyromancer in particular seems great when you have 12 burn spells, and choosing to play him for value rather than just running him out on turn 2 is a big game for sure.
If you look at it's results on MODO, that build has gone from ~30% of the meta to ~20% in the last week, and I think it'll keep dropping. Some of this is due to people wanting to try new decks (now that they've won all their money!) but also because MBC and BW are big players now and the devotion decks are poorly positioned here (relative to the other red variants).
So Fanatic is bad against what people are playing in my meta (MODO). I make no comment on any other environment. I'm firmly in the camp of WAAC so if Fanatic would give me a higher win % I'd play Fanatic in a heart beat. I don't see any reason why discussion of the card needs to go further honestly.
I took a closer look at the posted results from Standard events in the past week, and came up with the following numbers with my sample size:
- 68 Red decks out of 378 total, or about ~18% of the meta. (This includes little Red, Fanatic Red, Devotion Red, and any of the above that splashed White for Boros Charm and Chained to the Rocks)
- 55 out of 68 Red decks ran Fanatic of Mogis, or ~81%.
- The sample size was all 3-1 and 4-0 decks in DE's, as well as the top 8's from Premier Events, from October 14th to 21st.
So while it's true that Red decks are only ~20% of the meta (as opposed to previously having a larger share), the point remains that most of the successful lists have been using Fanatic.
The fact that Red decks are not as popular now as they were a week or two ago is independent of the fact that Fanatic of Mogis is still the most successful version. If you want to look at it your way, Fanatic builds are ~15% of the meta, and non-Fanatic builds are only ~3%, which still supports the fact that Fanatic is statistically more successful.
I'm only harping on this because I hate when someone posts something along these lines:
The moment you guys stop running Fanatic of Mogid red decks is the moment this deck becomes the deck to beat again
Stop kidding yourselves
...but then doesn't have any supporting evidence to back up their claim. Not only is his post disrespectful and pompous, but it's wrong.
A simple nod to Fanatic still being powerful is all I'm looking for here, rather than the continued insistence that it's not the card you want to be playing righ now.
Zemanjaski, If I was playing your version of Red, I would also stand by my choices and explain why I thought my deck was great, but I also wouldn't be afraid to admit that Fanatic of Mogis is still a stellar card. I have absolute respect for you in choosing to run a different version of Red that's not so mainstream. Just don't be afraid to acknowledge that what works for the majority is still a fine choice.
Legion Loyalist was a staple in RTR Block last season in RDW and I thought it would be again, but then along came Firedrinker. People love their 2 power one drops, but LL is def a pain in their butt. Especially since they are not playing much removal. It could work, i might test it, but then you are def relying on 3 creature attacks a lot with Firefist and LL. However, once you get that 3 creature attack rolling, it is hard to stop.
EDIT:: However, LL was much better when people played Madcap Skills maindeck in RTR Block on their LL. In this standard, i guess your LL would just die too easily, firstrike or not, so he essentially protects your bigger creatures for one turn...
Yeah I disagree still. But the thing is, your meta and my meta might be completely different. Right now I barely even have a meta, and even if I were back in Boston where events fire twice weekly, I'd still be waiting for things to settle down before I decided what was good or not.
To be honest, RDW is just a bridge deck for me right now. I'm playing it until I get all the cards for bigger Red (devotion with Purph and Stormbreath), G/R Ramp/BardNarson.dec, and probably Orzhov Midrange. I don't think that my build of Red is the best or anything, it's just the build I'm focused on tuning right now.
The fact that Supreme Verdict is very good right now won't prevent people from playing Devotion decks. The cycle will flow as it always does, but people will play whatever deck they are most invested in, especially this early on.
However, I don't think that the faster RDW decks without Fanatic are any better vs the expected metagame on a general scale. Sure you can go under some decks that run sweepers, but Anger of the Gods still destroys you. And G/W just walls you completely, as opposed to the Devotion builds that can go over the top with Fanatic. Master of Waves seems worse when you can't finish the game by turn 4 anyway, and now you're deck is mono 1-2 drops. At least Fanatic can reach past them and help race.
If I cut Fanatic as my 4-drop, I would probably just not play 4-drops outside of maybe a couple Chandras somewhere in the 75. She is absolutely stellar, but she isn't pushing through damage any better than Fanatic in a sweeper-based world. She's great at grinding, but what deck are you going to beat in the midgame with a buncha 2/1's?
Anyway, I'm not even clear which deck you are recommending that opts out of Fanatic right now. Can you show me a list?
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Big Red seems to have the advantage, as it's nearly just as fast as the RDW builds we've been seeing plus able to finish games definitively with Stormbreath. Honestly, if I had the dragon I'd run him. My friends are hoarding them like gold.
I don't understand how a value creature that provides direct damage/reach attached to a reasonably aggressive body doesn't fit in RDW. Flooding the board with guys is exactly what we do. A card that rewards us for doing so, especially when we've hit a board stall, seems to fit RDW pretty well. Yes, the Fanatic lists require cards like BTE, Boros Reckoner, Ash Zealot, and Chandra's Phoenix to be optimal. But those cards are already good, so I don't really see the loss here.
As far as the Hellrider comparison, yes Fanatic is worse. But the point is Fanatic is our closest replacement right now, and it's really not that much worse. Not having haste is the biggest loss, and the fact that you don't get the triggers every turn is also a minor loss in power. But the fact that just having a Reckoner and Zealot/BTE in play when you cast the Fanatic represents 6 damage easily makes up for what Hellrider would have provided in a similar board state. Rakdos Cackler is no Goblin Guide, but we're still happy to play him since it's the closest option we have in current standard.
I don't think Fanatic is necessary, but I choose to play a version of RDW where each card is inherently powerful, rather than relying on flooding the board early with guys that aren't strong on their own. BTE, Zealot, Phoenix, Reckoner, and SB Frostburn Wierd are all very reasonable creatures on their own, so I'm more than happy to get the extra bonus from Fanatic for playing those cards. As long as I get an average of 3 damage from my Fanatics I'm happy, which isn't hard to do if you play carefully and save a Burning-Tree Emissary in your hand against sweeper decks. In my opinion, the biggest reason to play a version that uses less devotion cards is so you can play 4 Mutavault, which is the one thing I'm sad to miss out on in my build. For reference, this is what I'm taking to Game Day today:
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Pheonix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock
21 Mountain
1 Mutavault
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
2 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Electrickery
1 Mutavault
Again, I'm not saying this is the best build of RDW or anything, but I think it's positioned nicely between being too small and too big. I still haven't seen any lists from all of you folks saying how bad Fanatic is, so please post what you guys are playing when you get a chance. Good luck this weekend to all of you playing, regardless of what type of Red spells you are slinging!
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Firefist Striker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Instants
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
3 Act of Treason
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Peak Eruption
4 Skullcrack
Went 10-1 in the two man queues this evening.
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Fanatic is obviously a good card, but it's certainly not the only game in town for red decks this season.
20 Mountain
3 Mutavault
Creatures:20
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Annihilating Fire
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Peak Eruption
3 Traitorous Instinct
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
I'll basically be running the same thing but +1 Mutavault and Magma Jets are a no go. Shock seems to work out better bringing the Phoenix back.
I may try for Game Day today:
4 Foundry-Street Denizen
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Goblin Shortcutter
2 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Lightning Strike
20 Mountain
May try a 2/2 split with Fanatic and Reckoner. Both have worked extremely well the last week.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
Maindeck
There are 2–4 flexible burn slots. Your options are Shock, Flames of the Firebrand and Annihilating Fire. Watch your meta and choose wisely.
Four maindeck Reckoners had won me every G1 I played.
Sideboard
Frostburn Weirds are amazing, they brickwall x/3 guys while building up devotion.
Skullcrack deals with Sphinx's Revelations and Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Play Traitorous Instinct over Act of Treason. You don’t cast it before T5 anyway, so a bonus Shock is welcome.
Whip of Erebos really ****s you up. Play Smelt if the Whip is popular.
Modern: RWB Burn G Infect B Infect BR Nivmiseit
Standard: R Red Deck Wins
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
2 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis
3 Shock
3 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
21 Mountain
1 Mutavault
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Act of Treason
2 Seismic Stomp
2 Annhilating Fire
went 4-1 drew to top 8 won against the mirror and top 4 just all split
orzhov midrange- 2-0
rg midrange ramp- 2-0
big red- 2-0
selesnya aggro- 0-2
mono green aggro- drew; played it out for fun and won 3 straight games with mb
top 8:
devotion red- 2-0
It was a new meta to me so I just played something aggressive for fun. Still messing around with the shredfreak, and he wasnt that bad. pushed through orzhov for a few swings when all he hand in hand were doom blades. goblin shortcutter as a 2 of was impressive, as he usually was a t3 play letting me swing in another 4 damage with my other 1 and 2 drops. Think im going to test out seismic stomp against selesnya. i can play the control until they start flashing in advent of the wurm, so I'll see if that helps swing in enough damage to get to the red zone.
Young Pyromancer is just an unreal busted card. They take over games against aggro, or they give you huge value against control, greatly improving all your burn (which is slightly sub-optimal against control). He gets even better post-board when you're often taking out 1 drops for more spells, which means more triggers.
And sometimes you have multiples in play.
Having Chandra, YP and Phoenix let you run more burn than normal without them ever truly being bad. This helps you close out games through resistance more easily, but also lets you not commit to the board as heavily.
Check out the links in my sig; you'll find all you could ever want and more. There's some reports, video and a matchup guide and I'm hoping to have another article up in a day or two. The hardest thing about the deck is understanding how your role changes; you're often a tempo or control deck and not an aggro deck.
It's a very difficult deck to play well, because it's built around synergies and now raw card power. So do a lot of reading, join in the discussion then jump in and test heaps.
The MonoR version is better against black based midrange (mono black, BW, BR, Dega) and Control, so look at that variant if that's what you're facing. The Boris version wrecks aggro/midrange metas. Both versions beat control.
See you over at DTR.
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
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How was your manabase? Did you run Mutavault or Nykthos?
- 18 Mountain: and
- 4 Mutavault.
It's very aggressive and reliable. You're making a HEAP of concessions to run 4 Mutavault (it would be better to have 20 red sources honestly) as you can't have Reckoner. This variant isn't great in the Devotion Red decks with MD Reckoner; but it's really good against AIR and Big Red. It's fantastic against control and black based decks.
If you're facing a lot of midrange I wouldn't pick this 75; you e got to adapt to your environment. Right now on MODO, everyone's playing mono red (favourable matchup), control variants (very favourable) and doom blade.dek variants (good), so I'm really enjoying the deck. If everyone goes back to Junk of GR midrange ill play something different.
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I'm curious as to what makes your build strong against the Red mirrors, especially the bigger Red decks. My experience with the Fanatic build was that the bigger Red decks generally go over the top with something like Purphoros or Stormbreath Dragon after the initial trading back and forth of creatures. Ash Zealot, Boros Reckoner, and Frostburn Weird are all great blockers, and they still run enough removal to hit your key creatures while blocking the rest. Flames of the Firebrand seems quite strong against your build post board as well, but maybe that's not too popular online. There are obviously times where it's just an early race, in which case I can see your build beating the other builds to the finish line, but it seems like if you miss out on that window the bigger red decks will just take over.
It might just a case of Little Red > Big (Devotion) Red > Mid (Fanatic Red) > Little Red. But in my experience in paper, I'd rather be on the side of the table that's casting Stormbreath Dragon and Purphoros.
As for Fanatic of Mogis, I'm still convinced he's worth it, at least in my build. There were a couple games where I couldn't cast him on time, and maybe once when he only dealt 1 damage, but there were several games where Fanatic won me the game. There were also a couple times where drawing him would have ended the game immediately in a game that was slipping out of my grasp. I even considered +0 Chandra once to try and find a game-winning Fanatic, but ended up being able to attack through a Fiendslayer Paladin with her +1 for exactsies.
Chandra was pretty awesome in SB games for sure, but again there were a few times I couldn't cast her on time, and also a couple times where I could cast her, but wouldn't get enough value out of her before she died. Defending Chandra was pretty key to making her actually good, since she doesn't impact the game that much the first two turns or so. I still think she's a house, but I'm more apt to play a long game with her, siding into Weirds and getting much less aggressive. I kept in Fanatics in every game, but I also didn't face any decks with sweepers.
I could see myself playing the faster version of RDW and dropping Fanatic, but not in a meta with so many other Red and Aggro decks lurking about. The MODO meta is a very different animal, and I'm sure whatever works there isn't necessarily the best thing for everyone's local scene.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Keep up the solid work guys.
21x Mountain
Creatures (29):
4x Rakdos Cackler
3x Firefist Striker
2x Gore-House Chainwalker
4x Ash Zealot
4x Burning Tree Emissary
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Chandra's Phoenix
4x Fanatic of Mogis
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
1x Shock
Other (1):
1x Hammer of Purphoros
4x Frostburn Weird
2x Peak Eruption
2x Burning Earth
1x Hammer of Purphoros
4x Mizzium Mortars
2x Act of Treason
I had actually intended to play:
-2 Gore-House Chainwalker
-1 Shock
-1 Magma Jet
+4 Firedrinker Satyr
...but the Firedrinkers I ordered got lost in the mail so I had to work around it. I still think I'd prefer to have them in the MD. Fortunately it wasn't disastrous.
Sideboard is still a work in progress. The most useful cards out of there were Weird, Peak Eruption and Mortars. The rest I think could flux... I'd like to put at least a couple Chandra's in.
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Firefist Striker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Instants
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
Lands
18 Mountain
4 Mutavault
3 Act of Treason
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
*BTE is in for testing, as games on the draw against:
- doom blade decks where you don't have a 1 drop; or
- red mirrors where you have a zealot to block and they kill it;
Where problematic. Getting two bodies into play or body + removal is huge in each of these situations.
Even against control, on the play, missing a 1 drop then going BTE + guy catches you up to where you want to be substantially (~8 damage before they can wrath).
@ HomelandZercurity, there wasnt a question in there so I'm assuming you we're just thinking loudly?
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That was my question, but to rephrase with proper punctuation:
What about your build matches up favorably in the Mono-Red mirrors, specifically against decks with Reckoners main and Weirds in the board?
To summarize my defense of Fanatic of Mogis, then I'll rest my case:
From what I've seen on the posted MODO results recently, Fanatic of Mogis seems to be consistently appearing in most of the red builds. It looks like most of the Red pilots are using Fanatic, whether it's in a midrange build with around 22 lands, or in the Devotion builds with Nykthos, Purphoros and Stormbreath Dragon. A smaller subset of Red mages have been having some success with faster lists that don't use Fanatic (but get to play 4 Mutavault), but they aren't as common. Notably, Chandra is at most a 2-3 of in most builds, usually in the board, whereas Fanatic is consistently a 4-of maindeck.
To clarify, I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing not to play Fanatic: if it's working for you, don't fix it. But it's clear that it's not some overrated flash in the pan either, it really is that good. (This is mostly directed at Redthirst and DXI-Edge).
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
To be honest, I am setting aside the deck for now and playing something else.
RE: Fanatic of Mogis.
If you look at it's results on MODO, that build has gone from ~30% of the meta to ~20% in the last week, and I think it'll keep dropping. Some of this is due to people wanting to try new decks (now that they've won all their money!) but also because MBC and BW are big players now and the devotion decks are poorly positioned here (relative to the other red variants).
So Fanatic is bad against what people are playing in my meta (MODO). I make no comment on any other environment. I'm firmly in the camp of WAAC so if Fanatic would give me a higher win % I'd play Fanatic in a heart beat. I don't see any reason why discussion of the card needs to go further honestly.
RE: Rx Semi-Mirrors.
The key cards in the matchups are (in order of importance):
- Boros Reckoner;
- Chandra's Phoenix;
- Flames of the Firebrand; and
- Ash Zealot.
Beyond that, burn is super important. Mutavault is super important.
My experience is that the value of them having Reckoner more or less beeajs even with your having access to Mutavault and more burn. Because you're Whitlock away their board, Fanatic is typically ultra low impact.
A resolved Chandra is pretty much unbeatable.
The games are usually aggressive 1-for-1 trades, then I win with Mutavaults or Chandra. I effectively have 4 more spells than they do and more ways to rebuy Phoenix.
Now, the multiple Reckoner draws are very tough, but outside of that I feel I have a small edge (probably 55-45 or slightly better).
How much of that is due to experience I leave up to readers.
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Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
I took a closer look at the posted results from Standard events in the past week, and came up with the following numbers with my sample size:
- 68 Red decks out of 378 total, or about ~18% of the meta. (This includes little Red, Fanatic Red, Devotion Red, and any of the above that splashed White for Boros Charm and Chained to the Rocks)
- 55 out of 68 Red decks ran Fanatic of Mogis, or ~81%.
- The sample size was all 3-1 and 4-0 decks in DE's, as well as the top 8's from Premier Events, from October 14th to 21st.
So while it's true that Red decks are only ~20% of the meta (as opposed to previously having a larger share), the point remains that most of the successful lists have been using Fanatic.
The fact that Red decks are not as popular now as they were a week or two ago is independent of the fact that Fanatic of Mogis is still the most successful version. If you want to look at it your way, Fanatic builds are ~15% of the meta, and non-Fanatic builds are only ~3%, which still supports the fact that Fanatic is statistically more successful.
I'm only harping on this because I hate when someone posts something along these lines:
...but then doesn't have any supporting evidence to back up their claim. Not only is his post disrespectful and pompous, but it's wrong.
A simple nod to Fanatic still being powerful is all I'm looking for here, rather than the continued insistence that it's not the card you want to be playing righ now.
Zemanjaski, If I was playing your version of Red, I would also stand by my choices and explain why I thought my deck was great, but I also wouldn't be afraid to admit that Fanatic of Mogis is still a stellar card. I have absolute respect for you in choosing to run a different version of Red that's not so mainstream. Just don't be afraid to acknowledge that what works for the majority is still a fine choice.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB