As far as I'm concerned, the following is the core of the Black Devotion deck. The numbers can be increased, but I don't think they can be decreased any further. In several cases, an increased number is the correct decision, but I'd like to foster at least some discussion here.
So, you can kind of see some of MY thoughts, and I'd be curious to hear some of yours as well at this point. Let's add some Blue cards.
1) Desecration Demon is good, but I don't find him great. Blue doesn't have a 4 mana beater like the demon at the moment, the closest thing is probably Duskmantle Seer but it adds less devotion, hurts us some turns more than it helps, and also dies to Mizzium Mortars. If it was a 4/5, then we'd be talking I think.
Personally, I add a 1 of Clone. It's a little cute, but as a one-of I'm unlikely to draw it without *something* to clone, and being able to add a fifth Specter, fourth Demon, or better yet a fifth Merchant is something I find appealing. More appealing than a fourth demon. I can also clone Thassa, God of the Sea or a Master of Waves and get some value thanks to our Specters.
2) Far // Away is pretty excellent removal. With blue in the mix, I prefer it over Devour Flesh in every scenario EXCEPT when they play a Sylvan Caryatid turn 2 and I want it off the board immediately. It can hit 2 late game, doesn't give life-gain early game. I used to run more, but peeps are flooding the board too much for me to rely on edict effects. I use them strictly as Devour Flesh replacements now (2-of).
3) Gainsay or Negate over Duress. I've found that in the matchups where I would be siding in Duress, I'd rather have a counter, and I'd rather it was cheap on the mana. I don't need it to counter creatures generally, because I'm only siding it in during Control matchups. Gainsay has the benefit of also letting me counter anything against Blue Devotion, if that's an issue. Negate lets me counter non-creature spells in other matchups - if that's an issue you're having.
4) I don't really like Erebos, God of the Dead. The only matchup right now where he's nice is the mirror match, and I'm generally unimpressed with him there, too. Clone fills his spot in the mirror, since I can shut out their lifegain when they shut out mine if need be.
Or am I siding wrong - do you guys side Erebos in as a 2-of for the mirror match? I've been unimpressed tbh.
5) Whip of Erebos is nice, but I don't think 2 spots is correct. I'd generally rather draw something else UNLESS I'm in a race. And drawing 2 is terribad unless you're discarding to rats, in which case everything is equally good. So, I run just the 1.
6) Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. You either love him or hate him, but I love him (in certain matchups). I stick him in the sideboard for removal light matchups where he can eat attacks and maybe start casting critters.
7) Cyclonic Rift is just a nice card for the late game when the board is a bit stalled. It's also the only sweeper in UB, so a one-of has fallen onto my board for a late draw. It's been okay.
I saw someone with a blue splash once.
The blue was for far/away, thassa, jace AOT, and liliana of the dark realms
i think the mana base was similar to yours. It was constantly making cut to top 8 at FNM level stuff but I dont think the guy played anything except for Friday nights. I played it once with my Junk midrange deck, it was a close game that I won in game 3 thanks to mistcutter hydras having haste.
So, Gainsay. I found Duress was almost always inferior to Gainsay. You usually gain a turn, and can counter ALMOST all their cards. Usually my priority is Sphinx over Jace, and often you can catch them completely unawares since Black Devotion doesn't run it. And playing around it can be very tough for them, just always leave 2 mana open. As a note, don't Underworld Connections at end of turn unless you still have 3 untapped or you'll open yourself up.
I ended up cutting whip for Clone in my current draft. Whip was nice, and don't get me wrong it can pull you ahead, but often drawing it meant there was going to be a dead turn where nothing happened and I don't know that it's ideal; YMMV. Clone works as a fifth Gary, can clone their Erebos or any of their creatures - it just felt far more flexible in more situations than Whip to me.
Clone did pull some interesting games here, especially alongside the Specters. Having a Thassa, God of the Sea Clone is super nice, and hey don't have the kill spells to turn off devotion.
All the kill spells have been crucial this matchup, especially for turning off devotion or turning off Master of Waves. Shrivel gets the plus as it will also kill off a lot of other creatures, and kills all the Masters in one fell swoop if they choose to over-commit. Illness in the Ranks is another good choice in this matchup, but loses out in other aggressive match-ups.
So, I'm finding a lot of use out of Clone and Gainsay with the splash. Far // Away is an excellent Devour Flesh replacement, but like Devour Flesh it isn't really a crippling spell in any matchup. Just a nice card to have around.
It has put up positive results. It's just a light splash for utility and tricks. I went 3-1 in Swiss. Losing to Esper before I put in the Theif. And it's proved good in playtesting.
The Notion Theif is good against control and Black Devotion. The cures are good against Red and Blue Devotions. The Lifebanes shore up most G and W matchups.
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I survived Faeries, Caw Blade, Valakut and Delver.
Standard: BGW Abzan Control BGW WU Azorius Heroic WU
Islands are used to pay the colorless parts of green spells.
For right now, I think four Pack Rats is the right call. Eventually peeps may be able to hate it out, but we'll see.
Regarding Far // Away, as was pointed out it does give some nice tricks.
- in first matchups, like Esper, you can quasi counter a spell by using Far on your own. Not great, but it's something.
- Late game Far your own Gary, and possibly even fusing to get one of their dudes as well.
- Cheap two mana tempo play against opposing rats if needed.
- Card advantage of a sort late game, since we're so lacking in sweeper type spells.
- Unlike Devour Flesh, it can be targeted. Relevant for green where we can Far a monstrosity effect to prevent activation if actual targeted removal isn't available.
Also, I was just looking at Dimir Charm and discounted it, but the article from BBD about Esper made me want to at least give the charm a shot. Might be worthwhile as a 2-mana kill spell that hits a lot of relevant threats.
Sorceries that come to mind:
Anger of the Gods, Curse of the Swine, Divination Dreadbore, Duress, Thoughtseize, Mizzium Mortars, Read the Bones.
Too bad things youd want to counter like verdict and slaughter games are uncounterable :/
I actually really don't like Brad Nelson's blue splash. He's weakening the mana base greatly by playing 3 islands and two guildgates just so he can play two times a two blue sideboard card in domestication. You wouldn't need as much blue mana if you only splashed one blue mana costed spells.
Is the extra power of dimir charm really worth the instability in the mana base? The 1 less mutavault?
Master of waves will often be just a 4 mana 2x 2/1 if you don't have a nightveil specter. Is that really so much better than a pharika's cure? :S
- Devour Flesh or Far // Away: I think we need the edict effect to hit certain things, so I don't think this is the right direction.
- Pharika's Cure: Here's a possible trade. The downside is that Dimir Charm hits low power creatures, rather than low toughness creatures. Aggro decks are starting with 3/1 and 3/2 creatures, and those are the ones I want to kill. Dimir Charm does still hit many of the aggro cards, but I think the lifegain and fact it kills more of the creatures that we want dead in aggro means Dimir Charm isn't a good replacement here.
- Ultimate Price/ Doom Blade/ Dark Betrayal: Here's where I would be looking to replace something for Dimir Charm, but here's the thing. I love these cards for killing big stuff. A top deck Dimir Charm can't kill a Demon, Polukranos, Dragon... and I just don't think there are enough sorceries to counter with it. The third charm effect is nice, but I'm not sure I'll use it as much as I'm hoping I'll use it. So, I dunno.
But what the hey, worth a shot I think. I just don't have the highest hopes for it (and won't mess up my mana base to play with it ;P)
I tested the blue splash this week and liked it a lot. I was inspired by brad nelson but I didn't go as deep into the blue splash as he did.
Took out the devour fleshes for far/away. Took out pharika's cure and 1 ultimate price for dimir charms. Played 4x watery grave, 4x temple of deceit, 4x mutavault, and the rest swamps. Never had an issue with blue mana, and felt like I was winning more esper games. Even using dimir charm's fateseal ability didn't seem too bad after an opponent would scry. I might try this tomorrow at FNM instead of just testing and let you guys know how I do.
Based on your list, it looks like you're not expecting to run into as much Control as you are aggro (Them's a lot of Cures!). If you're thinking there might also be a lot of Control or MonoU, consider Gainsay! It's worked great for me in those matchups specifically (and I like it better than a second or third Duress in the side).
I played in a 4 round FNM. Here is how it went
Game 1 I was against UW deck. Game 1 I won with well timed thoughtseizes, in game 2 I lost to double aetherling and a bunch of detention spheres. In game 3, it went to time, and I was able to get a draw but really I would have lost because I thoughtseized an aetherling from him, but then he used elixer of immortality and got one off the top on his next draw that I couldn't deal with.
I don't know, in this match, it just seemed like I had to hope to strip aetherling and elspeth was very annoying but managable with whip of erebos.
So I drew in round 1.
In round 2 I played against RG devotion. I went 2-0, I basically killed off as much stuff as possible early and was able to hero's downfall or attack his planeswalkers, making sure his board state never got out of control.
In round 3, I played against an esper deck. I lost game 1, but after boarding in erebos's and duresses and LBZ I was able to strip BBoV and keep him from gaining life with sphinx's. Game 3 I drew timely far/away's to deal with BBoV and won.
In round 4, I went up against mono red devotion. I barely won game 1 off of whip of erebos regaining me life and nightveil specter pulling mountains and then additional blockers for me. In game 2, I drew 3 pharika's cures which helped me stall for such a long time and let me win.
So I ended up going 3-0-1. I really wish I would have considered gainsay. I think it might have been nice at countering detention sphere and aetherling. I don't know, those feel like the worst cards for me to play against.
I have been thinking of going 4 temple of silence and just playing sin collector. But I'm not sure. I don't like the fact that I essentially have 8 CIPT lands (watery grave, I feel like I usually want it to CIPT). I really like splashing a color because mono black, while powerful, feels like it has glaring weaknesses, but I don't like the inconsistency of not having blue or so many different lands that pain me or cipt. Maybe I'm just hard to please haha.
However, I do think that I will try out gainsay. I hate that I feel that UWx feels like my hardest uphill matchup every time all the time. I really just want my SB to be 4 duress 4 gainsay but I know that I need the SB slots for other things.
Zzxya, I think that if you're doing a splash of Blue, Gainsay or even Negate are better in the control matchup. They have a lot of recurrence in their effects, and it's nice to make them waste a turn trying to kill a creature with Detention Sphere and getting in an extra hit or two. Duress sometimes pulls a Supreme Verdict only to have your creature Detention Sphered or Downfalled next turn.
It made a big difference in my Esper matchups after I started using it, but it's still a hard matchup imo.
Another option, now that UW is becoming more popular than Esper, would be Notion Thief. With Thoughtseize present in Esper, they often would catch the Thief and Seize it away anyhow, but with UW they don't have that option and they have fewer instant speed removals, too.
My Road:
2-1 W to a WBR Control deck, he ended up top 20.
2-0 W to a Mono B Devotion deck, dropped after 5 rounds.
2-0 W to a Mono U Devotion deck, which ended up second after swiss.
2-1 W to a Selesnya Goodstuff deck, he ended up 5-2, but man that deck was good.
1-1 ID to my friend. He was playing RW Aggro.
2-0 W to a R/G Monsters deck. Bad keeps was his downfall.
1-1 ID to another friend and guarantee top 8 at 8th. He was playing BW Humans.
Quarter-Finals:
2-1 W
I played against the BW Humans guy that I ID'ed to in the last round.
Semi-Finals:
0-2 L
I lost to another Selesnya Goodstuff deck this time piloted by an aggro genius.
He went on to lose in the Finals against American Control.
My Road:
2-1 W to a WBR Control deck, he ended up top 20.
2-0 W to a Mono B Devotion deck, dropped after 5 rounds.
2-0 W to a Mono U Devotion deck, which ended up second after swiss.
2-1 W to a Selesnya Goodstuff deck, he ended up 5-2, but man that deck was good.
1-1 ID to my friend. He was playing RW Aggro.
2-0 W to a R/G Monsters deck. Bad keeps was his downfall.
1-1 ID to another friend and guarantee top 8 at 8th. He was playing BW Humans.
Quarter-Finals:
2-1 W
I played against the BW Humans guy that I ID'ed to in the last round.
Semi-Finals:
0-2 L
I lost to another Selesnya Goodstuff deck this time piloted by an aggro genius.
He went on to lose in the Finals against American Control.
Interesting idea to include Ashiok. It looks like you posted some good results. What inspired this decision, and how do you feel it's an improvement over the more conventional mono-black?
It took me a minute to realize you dropped down to 24 lands. With 4 of them Mutavault, you've only got 20 black sources, 8 of which are also blue. Seems like a shaky mana base for Ashiok and Nightveil, when you break down the statistics. Numbers are what they are; how has this deck run when you couldn't cast one of those spells on T3, and has it affected your mulligan strategy?
Also, what made you decide to cut a 2-drop Pack Rat (which can take over a game) instead of 3-drop Nightveil to insert more 3-drops?
I like the idea of adding another disruption/win strategy to the B devotion shell, and I'm very interested to read your responses to the above.
Basically everything he/she ^^^ said, 24 lands does seem very low. Whilst this isn't the place to have the old *why not just play mono Black* discussion, cutting 2 lands and a Rat for 3 Ashioks doesn't, at least on paper seem to address any of the decks problem match ups. Especially off of 8 Blue sources, four of which come in tapped.
That being said, top 4ing a PTQ doesn't happen accidentally so kudos for that
Interesting idea to include Ashiok. It looks like you posted some good results. What inspired this decision, and how do you feel it's an improvement over the more conventional mono-black?
It took me a minute to realize you dropped down to 24 lands. With 4 of them Mutavault, you've only got 20 black sources, 8 of which are also blue. Seems like a shaky mana base for Ashiok and Nightveil, when you break down the statistics. Numbers are what they are; how has this deck run when you couldn't cast one of those spells on T3, and has it affected your mulligan strategy?
Also, what made you decide to cut a 2-drop Pack Rat (which can take over a game) instead of 3-drop Nightveil to insert more 3-drops?
I like the idea of adding another disruption/win strategy to the B devotion shell, and I'm very interested to read your responses to the above.
I might have upped the land count up by one only after the Quarter-Finals when I really needed the 5th land drop on turn 5, but got on turn 6 and won it anyway.
In hindsight though, the Pack Rat was sided in most of the time so yes, I would have preferred a 4Rat/3Veil split as you said.
I never had problems casting the 3drops (never got clogged up.)
The matches where Lifebane Zombies are great, Ashiok is lacking a bit.
You'd be surprised how often you get that blue splash needed. The only thing I didn't like is that one game I couldn't curve nicely into Nightveil (this will be replaced with the new 3/3 flying Demon for 1BB.)
Obviously Ashiok is the main talking point.
Ashiok won me my games vs. the Mono B and Mono U devotion decks.
And gained me psuedo life in games 1 against the Selesnya Decks. Unfortunately I didn't draw nuts after casting Ashiok so I lost it.
I threw the DEGA Control Deck off to the point he didn't know what to swing at until after I exiled BB and he actually read the second ability.
Mono B
Game 1: Stole a Desecration Demon while casting my own on the same turn. Scooped.
Game 2: Exiled 2 Demons and a Pack Rat (with 2 activations) before I started stealing those creatures. This is on top of me casting two Nightveil Specters.
Mono U
Game 1:
Ashiok stole a Cloudfin and a Master of Waves (making 4 tokens in the end.) so that I could fend off a 9 elemental, Master of Waves, 2x judge's familiar and a cloudfin evolved twice attack.
Game 2:
It stole a Nightveil Specter so that I could Gray Merchant ftw with two Specters out.
As is in many large events, luck plays small role, but I piloted well and the deck was good to me.
I might have upped the land count up by one only after the Quarter-Finals when I really needed the 5th land drop on turn 5, but got on turn 6 and won it anyway.
In hindsight though, the Pack Rat was sided in most of the time so yes, I would have preferred a 4Rat/3Veil split as you said.
I never had problems casting the 3drops (never got clogged up.)
The matches where Lifebane Zombies are great, Ashiok is lacking a bit.
You'd be surprised how often you get that blue splash needed. The only thing I didn't like is that one game I couldn't curve nicely into Nightveil (this will be replaced with the new 3/3 flying Demon for 1BB.)
It's fascinating that you didn't have problems with your 3-drops. I guess your Mutavaults count as lands for the Connections and Lifebanes, but 20 B should only give you BBB on T3 about 64% of the time; 8 U should give you one by T3 75% -- give or take 3-6% for scry and drawing first. Maybe the unlikelihood of drawing the card you're trying to cast T3 (Nightveil/Ashiok) played in your favor, too.
Obviously Ashiok is the main talking point.
Ashiok won me my games vs. the Mono B and Mono U devotion decks.
And gained me psuedo life in games 1 against the Selesnya Decks. Unfortunately I didn't draw nuts after casting Ashiok so I lost it.
I threw the DEGA Control Deck off to the point he didn't know what to swing at until after I exiled BB and he actually read the second ability.
Mono B
Game 1: Stole a Desecration Demon while casting my own on the same turn. Scooped.
Game 2: Exiled 2 Demons and a Pack Rat (with 2 activations) before I started stealing those creatures. This is on top of me casting two Nightveil Specters.
Mono U
Game 1:
Ashiok stole a Cloudfin and a Master of Waves (making 4 tokens in the end.) so that I could fend off a 9 elemental, Master of Waves, 2x judge's familiar and a cloudfin evolved twice attack.
Game 2:
It stole a Nightveil Specter so that I could Gray Merchant ftw with two Specters out.
As is in many large events, luck plays small role, but I piloted well and the deck was good to me.
Here's a thought: why not just play Ashiok instead of Specter? We'd lose some devotion points, but he essentially does the same job otherwise, only better.
I'm pretty iffy about the 1BB demon from BNG in this deck. It's an awesome card, but we're already "using life as a resource" a lot more than most decks.
The possibility of dropping Ashiok T3, grabbing something like a Stormbreath Dragon, D. Demon or Blood Baron off of the top of your opponents deck and dropping that on T4 in addition to dropping another threat using your own mana could be pretty back breaking.
Instead of cutting all NVS what about 1 NVS, 1 D. Demon, and something else?
I've tried Ashiok many times because I really want him to work. If he sticks he does great work but that can be said for almost any card in the game. But the truth is he does pretty fast most times I've dropped him. Tbh I would rather splash red and run slaughter games and RR
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
The possibility of dropping Ashiok T3, grabbing something like a Stormbreath Dragon, D. Demon or Blood Baron off of the top of your opponents deck and dropping that on T4 in addition to dropping another threat using your own mana could be pretty back breaking.
Instead of cutting all NVS what about 1 NVS, 1 D. Demon, and something else?
It is back-breaking, I have stolen that D Demon and cast one myself turn 4 on the draw. My opponent kept a hand of removal to counter my threats, but he was not prepared for Ashiok.
I stole a Polukranos with Ashiok and stole a green land (stomping Ground) with NVS in the same turn, needless to say I blew my opponent out of the water that game.
I was lucky, but when Ashiok was it it's worst, I gained 5-9 life while setting myself up for the win. Ashiok has a hidden attribute in that it sometimes creates heavy play mistakes in your opponent. I have had it twice where attacking Ashiok was not necessary but done anyway, and more often than not they ignored it and saw a monster/demon/master of waves beating down the following turn.
It's fascinating that you didn't have problems with your 3-drops. I guess your Mutavaults count as lands for the Connections and Lifebanes, but 20 B should only give you BBB on T3 about 64% of the time; 8 U should give you one by T3 75% -- give or take 3-6% for scry and drawing first. Maybe the unlikelihood of drawing the card you're trying to cast T3 (Nightveil/Ashiok) played in your favor, too.
Here's a thought: why not just play Ashiok instead of Specter? We'd lose some devotion points, but he essentially does the same job otherwise, only better.
I'm pretty iffy about the 1BB demon from BNG in this deck. It's an awesome card, but we're already "using life as a resource" a lot more than most decks.
I will say maybe luck played a part? I understand statistics and remember I only play 9 rounds and roughly 22 games with it and around 3-4 times I might have struggled a bit. Remember by turn 3 I could cast one of the following things (with good circumstances): Ashiok, Nightveil or Underworld Connections. Rat plus Thoughtseize. Turn 3 is the big turn in this deck and I hardly had any issues. Remember that situation in the game is also relevant and statistics do not account for that...
Nightveil and Ashiok together are powerhouses, I wouldn't recommend getting rid of any to favour the other.
The demon is an iffy one, but I'd try it.
I've tried Ashiok many times because I really want him to work. If he sticks he does great work but that can be said for almost any card in the game. But the truth is he does pretty fast most times I've dropped him. Tbh I would rather splash red and run slaughter games and RR
I saw the Red Splash at the PTQ and I liked it a lot, ultimately it's up to personal preference I believe. At worst Ashiok is an extra draw or two. Also, Ashiok is a HOUSE late game.
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Here's the basic deck we're working with, from GP Albuquerque:
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Desecration Demon
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Devour Flesh
1 Doom Blade
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ultimate Price
4 Underworld Connections
19 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Dark Betrayal
1 Doom Blade
3 Duress
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Pharika's Cure
1 Shrivel
As far as I'm concerned, the following is the core of the Black Devotion deck. The numbers can be increased, but I don't think they can be decreased any further. In several cases, an increased number is the correct decision, but I'd like to foster at least some discussion here.
2 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchants of Asphodel
2 Pack Rat
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Other Removal Spells
4 Thoughtseize
2 Temple of Deceit
So, you can kind of see some of MY thoughts, and I'd be curious to hear some of yours as well at this point. Let's add some Blue cards.
1) Desecration Demon is good, but I don't find him great. Blue doesn't have a 4 mana beater like the demon at the moment, the closest thing is probably Duskmantle Seer but it adds less devotion, hurts us some turns more than it helps, and also dies to Mizzium Mortars. If it was a 4/5, then we'd be talking I think.
Personally, I add a 1 of Clone. It's a little cute, but as a one-of I'm unlikely to draw it without *something* to clone, and being able to add a fifth Specter, fourth Demon, or better yet a fifth Merchant is something I find appealing. More appealing than a fourth demon. I can also clone Thassa, God of the Sea or a Master of Waves and get some value thanks to our Specters.
2) Far // Away is pretty excellent removal. With blue in the mix, I prefer it over Devour Flesh in every scenario EXCEPT when they play a Sylvan Caryatid turn 2 and I want it off the board immediately. It can hit 2 late game, doesn't give life-gain early game. I used to run more, but peeps are flooding the board too much for me to rely on edict effects. I use them strictly as Devour Flesh replacements now (2-of).
3) Gainsay or Negate over Duress. I've found that in the matchups where I would be siding in Duress, I'd rather have a counter, and I'd rather it was cheap on the mana. I don't need it to counter creatures generally, because I'm only siding it in during Control matchups. Gainsay has the benefit of also letting me counter anything against Blue Devotion, if that's an issue. Negate lets me counter non-creature spells in other matchups - if that's an issue you're having.
4) I don't really like Erebos, God of the Dead. The only matchup right now where he's nice is the mirror match, and I'm generally unimpressed with him there, too. Clone fills his spot in the mirror, since I can shut out their lifegain when they shut out mine if need be.
Or am I siding wrong - do you guys side Erebos in as a 2-of for the mirror match? I've been unimpressed tbh.
5) Whip of Erebos is nice, but I don't think 2 spots is correct. I'd generally rather draw something else UNLESS I'm in a race. And drawing 2 is terribad unless you're discarding to rats, in which case everything is equally good. So, I run just the 1.
6) Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. You either love him or hate him, but I love him (in certain matchups). I stick him in the sideboard for removal light matchups where he can eat attacks and maybe start casting critters.
7) Cyclonic Rift is just a nice card for the late game when the board is a bit stalled. It's also the only sweeper in UB, so a one-of has fallen onto my board for a late draw. It's been okay.
So, here's my list at the moment:
4 Nightveil Specter
3 Desecration Demon
1 Clone
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Underworld Connections
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Far // Away
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Ultimate Price
4 Thoughtseize
14 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Gainsay
3 Pharika's Cure
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Duress
1 Shrivel
So, throw out some other cards, let's see if there's something better we can do here for a Blue splash.
~DD
The blue was for far/away, thassa, jace AOT, and liliana of the dark realms
i think the mana base was similar to yours. It was constantly making cut to top 8 at FNM level stuff but I dont think the guy played anything except for Friday nights. I played it once with my Junk midrange deck, it was a close game that I won in game 3 thanks to mistcutter hydras having haste.
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Esper:
Key Cards: Thoughtseize, Duress, Gainsay, Underworld Connections, Mutavault.
So, Gainsay. I found Duress was almost always inferior to Gainsay. You usually gain a turn, and can counter ALMOST all their cards. Usually my priority is Sphinx over Jace, and often you can catch them completely unawares since Black Devotion doesn't run it. And playing around it can be very tough for them, just always leave 2 mana open. As a note, don't Underworld Connections at end of turn unless you still have 3 untapped or you'll open yourself up.
Black Devotion
Key Cards: Thoughtseize, Pack Rat, Underworld Connections, Erebos, God of the Dead
I ended up cutting whip for Clone in my current draft. Whip was nice, and don't get me wrong it can pull you ahead, but often drawing it meant there was going to be a dead turn where nothing happened and I don't know that it's ideal; YMMV. Clone works as a fifth Gary, can clone their Erebos or any of their creatures - it just felt far more flexible in more situations than Whip to me.
Blue Devotion
Key Cards: Pack Rat, Nightveil Specter, Shrivel, Gainsay
Clone did pull some interesting games here, especially alongside the Specters. Having a Thassa, God of the Sea Clone is super nice, and hey don't have the kill spells to turn off devotion.
All the kill spells have been crucial this matchup, especially for turning off devotion or turning off Master of Waves. Shrivel gets the plus as it will also kill off a lot of other creatures, and kills all the Masters in one fell swoop if they choose to over-commit. Illness in the Ranks is another good choice in this matchup, but loses out in other aggressive match-ups.
So, I'm finding a lot of use out of Clone and Gainsay with the splash. Far // Away is an excellent Devour Flesh replacement, but like Devour Flesh it isn't really a crippling spell in any matchup. Just a nice card to have around.
Here's my current list:
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Clone
4 Underworld Connections
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Far // Away
2 Ultimate Price
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
14 Swamp
4 Lifebane Zombie
2 Shrivel
3 Pharika's Cure
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Gainsay
1 Duress
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Desecration Demon
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of As phone
4 Underworld Connections
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Far
2 Doom Blade
1 Ultimate Price
4 Mutavault
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Watery Grave
14 Swamp
4 Pharika's Cure
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Notion Theif
2 Duress
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
It has put up positive results. It's just a light splash for utility and tricks. I went 3-1 in Swiss. Losing to Esper before I put in the Theif. And it's proved good in playtesting.
The Notion Theif is good against control and Black Devotion. The cures are good against Red and Blue Devotions. The Lifebanes shore up most G and W matchups.
Standard:
BGW Abzan Control BGW
WU Azorius Heroic WU
Islands are used to pay the colorless parts of green spells.
Regarding Far // Away, as was pointed out it does give some nice tricks.
- in first matchups, like Esper, you can quasi counter a spell by using Far on your own. Not great, but it's something.
- Late game Far your own Gary, and possibly even fusing to get one of their dudes as well.
- Cheap two mana tempo play against opposing rats if needed.
- Card advantage of a sort late game, since we're so lacking in sweeper type spells.
- Unlike Devour Flesh, it can be targeted. Relevant for green where we can Far a monstrosity effect to prevent activation if actual targeted removal isn't available.
Just some thoughts and ideas!
~DD
Not sure what I'd cut for it though.
~DD
Yeah. Here's the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxDU2fs3hQ
I really want to try this out after listening to him talk about it. Seems pretty good. Does anyone know how well he did for the day?
Anger of the Gods, Curse of the Swine, Divination Dreadbore, Duress, Thoughtseize, Mizzium Mortars, Read the Bones.
Too bad things youd want to counter like verdict and slaughter games are uncounterable :/
I actually really don't like Brad Nelson's blue splash. He's weakening the mana base greatly by playing 3 islands and two guildgates just so he can play two times a two blue sideboard card in domestication. You wouldn't need as much blue mana if you only splashed one blue mana costed spells.
Is the extra power of dimir charm really worth the instability in the mana base? The 1 less mutavault?
Master of waves will often be just a 4 mana 2x 2/1 if you don't have a nightveil specter. Is that really so much better than a pharika's cure? :S
- Hero's Downfall: No way I'm trading this out.
- Devour Flesh or Far // Away: I think we need the edict effect to hit certain things, so I don't think this is the right direction.
- Pharika's Cure: Here's a possible trade. The downside is that Dimir Charm hits low power creatures, rather than low toughness creatures. Aggro decks are starting with 3/1 and 3/2 creatures, and those are the ones I want to kill. Dimir Charm does still hit many of the aggro cards, but I think the lifegain and fact it kills more of the creatures that we want dead in aggro means Dimir Charm isn't a good replacement here.
- Ultimate Price/ Doom Blade/ Dark Betrayal: Here's where I would be looking to replace something for Dimir Charm, but here's the thing. I love these cards for killing big stuff. A top deck Dimir Charm can't kill a Demon, Polukranos, Dragon... and I just don't think there are enough sorceries to counter with it. The third charm effect is nice, but I'm not sure I'll use it as much as I'm hoping I'll use it. So, I dunno.
But what the hey, worth a shot I think. I just don't have the highest hopes for it (and won't mess up my mana base to play with it ;P)
~DD
Took out the devour fleshes for far/away. Took out pharika's cure and 1 ultimate price for dimir charms. Played 4x watery grave, 4x temple of deceit, 4x mutavault, and the rest swamps. Never had an issue with blue mana, and felt like I was winning more esper games. Even using dimir charm's fateseal ability didn't seem too bad after an opponent would scry. I might try this tomorrow at FNM instead of just testing and let you guys know how I do.
edit: the decklist
13 swamp
4 mutavault
4 watery grave
4 temple of deceit
//creatures
4 gray merchant of asphodel
3 desecration demon
4 pack rat
4 nightveil specter
1 erebos, god of the dead
2 dimir charm
4 thoughtseize
4 hero's downfall
1 ultimate price
1 whip of erebos
4 underworld connections
3 far//away
4 pharika's cure
4 lifebane zombie
1 doom blade
1 dark betrayal
1 far//away
2 duress
2 erebos, god of the dead
Based on your list, it looks like you're not expecting to run into as much Control as you are aggro (Them's a lot of Cures!). If you're thinking there might also be a lot of Control or MonoU, consider Gainsay! It's worked great for me in those matchups specifically (and I like it better than a second or third Duress in the side).
~DD
Game 1 I was against UW deck. Game 1 I won with well timed thoughtseizes, in game 2 I lost to double aetherling and a bunch of detention spheres. In game 3, it went to time, and I was able to get a draw but really I would have lost because I thoughtseized an aetherling from him, but then he used elixer of immortality and got one off the top on his next draw that I couldn't deal with.
I don't know, in this match, it just seemed like I had to hope to strip aetherling and elspeth was very annoying but managable with whip of erebos.
So I drew in round 1.
In round 2 I played against RG devotion. I went 2-0, I basically killed off as much stuff as possible early and was able to hero's downfall or attack his planeswalkers, making sure his board state never got out of control.
In round 3, I played against an esper deck. I lost game 1, but after boarding in erebos's and duresses and LBZ I was able to strip BBoV and keep him from gaining life with sphinx's. Game 3 I drew timely far/away's to deal with BBoV and won.
In round 4, I went up against mono red devotion. I barely won game 1 off of whip of erebos regaining me life and nightveil specter pulling mountains and then additional blockers for me. In game 2, I drew 3 pharika's cures which helped me stall for such a long time and let me win.
So I ended up going 3-0-1. I really wish I would have considered gainsay. I think it might have been nice at countering detention sphere and aetherling. I don't know, those feel like the worst cards for me to play against.
I have been thinking of going 4 temple of silence and just playing sin collector. But I'm not sure. I don't like the fact that I essentially have 8 CIPT lands (watery grave, I feel like I usually want it to CIPT). I really like splashing a color because mono black, while powerful, feels like it has glaring weaknesses, but I don't like the inconsistency of not having blue or so many different lands that pain me or cipt. Maybe I'm just hard to please haha.
However, I do think that I will try out gainsay. I hate that I feel that UWx feels like my hardest uphill matchup every time all the time. I really just want my SB to be 4 duress 4 gainsay but I know that I need the SB slots for other things.
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Pack Rat
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Thoughtseize
4 Underworld Connections
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Cyclonic Rift
1 Far // Away
1 Devour Flesh
1 Ultimate Price
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Doom Blade
3 Pharika's Cure
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 LIfebane Zombie
2 Notion Thief
1 Dark Betrayal
1 Dimir Charm
1 Illness in the Ranks
Ran this list last weekend at my LGS. Absolutely loved Rift and Far // Away.
It made a big difference in my Esper matchups after I started using it, but it's still a hard matchup imo.
Another option, now that UW is becoming more popular than Esper, would be Notion Thief. With Thoughtseize present in Esper, they often would catch the Thief and Seize it away anyhow, but with UW they don't have that option and they have fewer instant speed removals, too.
~DD
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Watery Grave
4x Mutavault
12x Swamp
Creatures:
3x Pack Rat
4x Nightveil Specter
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Non-Creature Spells:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Devour Flesh
2x Pharika's Cure
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Underworld Connection
1x Pack Rate
4x Lifebane Zombie
2x Erebos, God of the Dead
3x Duress
2x Doom Blade
3x Far // Away
My Road:
2-1 W to a WBR Control deck, he ended up top 20.
2-0 W to a Mono B Devotion deck, dropped after 5 rounds.
2-0 W to a Mono U Devotion deck, which ended up second after swiss.
2-1 W to a Selesnya Goodstuff deck, he ended up 5-2, but man that deck was good.
1-1 ID to my friend. He was playing RW Aggro.
2-0 W to a R/G Monsters deck. Bad keeps was his downfall.
1-1 ID to another friend and guarantee top 8 at 8th. He was playing BW Humans.
Quarter-Finals:
2-1 W
I played against the BW Humans guy that I ID'ed to in the last round.
Semi-Finals:
0-2 L
I lost to another Selesnya Goodstuff deck this time piloted by an aggro genius.
He went on to lose in the Finals against American Control.
Interesting idea to include Ashiok. It looks like you posted some good results. What inspired this decision, and how do you feel it's an improvement over the more conventional mono-black?
It took me a minute to realize you dropped down to 24 lands. With 4 of them Mutavault, you've only got 20 black sources, 8 of which are also blue. Seems like a shaky mana base for Ashiok and Nightveil, when you break down the statistics. Numbers are what they are; how has this deck run when you couldn't cast one of those spells on T3, and has it affected your mulligan strategy?
Also, what made you decide to cut a 2-drop Pack Rat (which can take over a game) instead of 3-drop Nightveil to insert more 3-drops?
I like the idea of adding another disruption/win strategy to the B devotion shell, and I'm very interested to read your responses to the above.
That being said, top 4ing a PTQ doesn't happen accidentally so kudos for that
I might have upped the land count up by one only after the Quarter-Finals when I really needed the 5th land drop on turn 5, but got on turn 6 and won it anyway.
In hindsight though, the Pack Rat was sided in most of the time so yes, I would have preferred a 4Rat/3Veil split as you said.
I never had problems casting the 3drops (never got clogged up.)
The matches where Lifebane Zombies are great, Ashiok is lacking a bit.
You'd be surprised how often you get that blue splash needed. The only thing I didn't like is that one game I couldn't curve nicely into Nightveil (this will be replaced with the new 3/3 flying Demon for 1BB.)
Obviously Ashiok is the main talking point.
Ashiok won me my games vs. the Mono B and Mono U devotion decks.
And gained me psuedo life in games 1 against the Selesnya Decks. Unfortunately I didn't draw nuts after casting Ashiok so I lost it.
I threw the DEGA Control Deck off to the point he didn't know what to swing at until after I exiled BB and he actually read the second ability.
Mono B
Game 1: Stole a Desecration Demon while casting my own on the same turn. Scooped.
Game 2: Exiled 2 Demons and a Pack Rat (with 2 activations) before I started stealing those creatures. This is on top of me casting two Nightveil Specters.
Mono U
Game 1:
Ashiok stole a Cloudfin and a Master of Waves (making 4 tokens in the end.) so that I could fend off a 9 elemental, Master of Waves, 2x judge's familiar and a cloudfin evolved twice attack.
Game 2:
It stole a Nightveil Specter so that I could Gray Merchant ftw with two Specters out.
As is in many large events, luck plays small role, but I piloted well and the deck was good to me.
It's fascinating that you didn't have problems with your 3-drops. I guess your Mutavaults count as lands for the Connections and Lifebanes, but 20 B should only give you BBB on T3 about 64% of the time; 8 U should give you one by T3 75% -- give or take 3-6% for scry and drawing first. Maybe the unlikelihood of drawing the card you're trying to cast T3 (Nightveil/Ashiok) played in your favor, too.
Here's a thought: why not just play Ashiok instead of Specter? We'd lose some devotion points, but he essentially does the same job otherwise, only better.
I'm pretty iffy about the 1BB demon from BNG in this deck. It's an awesome card, but we're already "using life as a resource" a lot more than most decks.
Instead of cutting all NVS what about 1 NVS, 1 D. Demon, and something else?
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
It is back-breaking, I have stolen that D Demon and cast one myself turn 4 on the draw. My opponent kept a hand of removal to counter my threats, but he was not prepared for Ashiok.
I stole a Polukranos with Ashiok and stole a green land (stomping Ground) with NVS in the same turn, needless to say I blew my opponent out of the water that game.
I was lucky, but when Ashiok was it it's worst, I gained 5-9 life while setting myself up for the win. Ashiok has a hidden attribute in that it sometimes creates heavy play mistakes in your opponent. I have had it twice where attacking Ashiok was not necessary but done anyway, and more often than not they ignored it and saw a monster/demon/master of waves beating down the following turn.
I will say maybe luck played a part? I understand statistics and remember I only play 9 rounds and roughly 22 games with it and around 3-4 times I might have struggled a bit. Remember by turn 3 I could cast one of the following things (with good circumstances): Ashiok, Nightveil or Underworld Connections. Rat plus Thoughtseize. Turn 3 is the big turn in this deck and I hardly had any issues. Remember that situation in the game is also relevant and statistics do not account for that...
Nightveil and Ashiok together are powerhouses, I wouldn't recommend getting rid of any to favour the other.
The demon is an iffy one, but I'd try it.
I saw the Red Splash at the PTQ and I liked it a lot, ultimately it's up to personal preference I believe. At worst Ashiok is an extra draw or two. Also, Ashiok is a HOUSE late game.