After spending all day yesterday and this morning testing the B/G version with vraska and golgari charm out of the side... I'm gonna have to say that the mana does kinda hurt.
Also... I think it'd far better to just kill them out right than to bother with assembling. I mean, maybe red offers more with slaughter games or something, but even at that so very often I just was wanting to just cast grey merchant for the win.
Lot of the time I kiinda mana piddled for a long time in a lot of games. I tried the exact b/g list at the front of this primer, and while it had LolTroll instead of P.rat I can't help but thing that Ben should never have been moved out of the deck. Shrug. Thats not to say people shouldn't TEST the other colors, but that my test was less that amazing.
Another benefit to going mono B is access to Corrupt, which I personally have been playing 2 of in my mainboard with much success. It will just win a game outright if you do it late game for 5-9 or whatever which is pretty huge. It is one of the cards that when you are digging for gas late game you really want to see, like Gray Merchant. It's ability to serve as removal while sill gaining you life is also pretty damn tits and it will work as a closer often as well if not just stabilize you. I almost even want to cut my 2 MB temples for this reason. It is good in the mirror and I couple it with 2 Lilliana MB who's ability to thin the deck and get bigger is already pretty useful when your digging with underworld or whatever. I assume we will get something to do with #of swamps and/or other lands in this block also which could make mono decks that much more effective.
Another benefit to going mono B is access to Corrupt, which I personally have been playing 2 of in my mainboard with much success. It will just win a game outright if you do it late game for 5-9 or whatever which is pretty huge. It is one of the cards that when you are digging for gas late game you really want to see, like Gray Merchant. It's ability to serve as removal while sill gaining you life is also pretty damn tits and it will work as a closer often as well if not just stabilize you. I almost even want to cut my 2 MB temples for this reason. It is good in the mirror and I couple it with 2 Lilliana MB who's ability to thin the deck and get bigger is already pretty useful when your digging with underworld or whatever. I assume we will get something to do with #of swamps and/or other lands in this block also which could make mono decks that much more effective.
I can actually get behind that pretty well actually, corrupt as gary's number 5 or 6 depending on how you end up working it.
Also I watch the video "the other guy" mentioned over on youtube and here's the link.
It's pretty lopsided, but mirrors my own thoughts about that match up. I just want to basically cast drain life over and over again, and black has a legacy of doing just that. So I think it might be best to just focus on that plan with little variance. There might be a card that forces something different eventually but whatever it is, it certainly isn't there yet.
tested a blue splash for the past 2 days and realized when I win i never needed the cards i splash for (far/away, cyclonic rift, ashiok). While I did win a few midrange games off of ashiok, I still feel all we want to do is jam connections and a specter followed by a garys and whips.
there was 1 game where my opponent was up to 35 hp while i was down to 7. I still won that game thanks to multiple gray merchant + whips. that game made me realize that I want my deck to be more consistent in draining life. Will take out the blue and throw in some corrupts
Originally I designed a green splash to exploit what I suspected was a good card in the format (Reaper of the Wilds) but I had too many of them in the deck, and have steadily cut them down to where I am not even playing them anymore. Currently the manabase has 4 Overgrown Tombs, 2 Golgari Guildgates and 3 Temple of Mystery as green sources, with 3 Mutavault and 13 swamps. So far there have been games that were definitley lost due to the manabase (be it from mulligans or whatnot) but I think the splash is overall a bonus.
The green cards that are left in the 75 include 3 abrupt decay, 1 putrefy main/1 in the sideboard, 1 gaze of granite maindeck, and one golgari charm in the board. Decay is obviously the most important card, and I think I am going to eventually play all 4 somewhere in the 75, probably going to put one in the board replacing one of the removal spells that are currently there.
I'd like some input on some changes I think we should make due to all the MBD hate that will be coming our way from our "easy" matchups and more difficult ones.
A lot of people are going to try and splash colors and add some inconsistency, I want to rectify that, WITHOUT changing colors.
Duress Mainboard?
Yes. I feel like although splashing a color is nice and adds some better removal, I'd rather pick off my opponents hand. With maindecked Lifebanes (2) and 6 Discards I feel a lot more comfortable getting rid of that card I know my removal itself cannot get rid of. It MAY sometimes take a bit of luck to pull off, but is generally pretty easy.
We have 8 (or 10 if you sideboard the extra 2 Lifebanes in) chances to see our opponents hand and respond to things we can't normally get rid of. You'll usually get about 5 chances to see your opponents hand out of 8 (or 10) on AVERAGE a game and respond accordingly. What more could you really ask for?
2/2 Splits everywhere
It's to cover our bases. You can always board in game 2 whatever you need or that wasn't suited for the match.
Just quoting/bumping for more discussion on this build.
who said anything about forests ? 4 overgrown tombs and 4 guildgates is 8 green sources a forest would be flat out terrible in this deck
I posted that in response to someone saying they couldn't cast abrupt decay because they only had 8 green sources in a MBDg deck. At this point, I am assuming I misinterpreted what was stated. I had read it as 8 sources out, all only being green, which is why he was unable to cast AD, not that it was just 8 sources in the deck as a total.
So just watched a Bg deck on camera try to cast an Abrupt Decay with only 8 green sources against an aggressive deck. Note, he didn't.
My problem with the splash is that 8 sources simply is not enough and moving up to 10 - 12 simply makes your consistency worse. Now if we're talking about a heavier green splash with both actual value cards and the sources needed to cast them, well that's different. Lotleth Troll, Dreg Mangler, Varolz, Decay, Reaper, Ooze. These are all great cards and these are arguably a better reason to splash a colour for. Making your mana base worse to play uncastable cards half of the time and inbreeding your decks to such a point that you convincingly beat the mirror but just open yourself to be worse against almost everything else is just not smart magic.
I had none of this problem at all whatsoever. I just came back from a 40man GPT with 6 swiss rounds, 4-1-1 into top 8, top 4 split for prizes as it was getting late. Yes it's a small turnout but every competitive deck is present and well represented...
I can assure you the splash is more than worth it and vastly improved at least 2 out of the 5(6th round ID) rounds and without Green I would've punted like every other monoblack and not have made top 8.
Well, that´s it so far. Why do you guys think about it ?
I'd see you are gonna have problems with too much green cards in hand a lot of the time. Golgari Charm is more suited for the sideboard, there's not enough decls that warrant it that Abrupt Decay don't already solve.
Nykthos, while it's nice to have, isn't necessary in the slash version as it seriously just messes up more of the manabase and add more mulligans. The games where you can Nykthos for lots is win-more, this is what I've realised over lots of games. Of course, in the mirror, Nykthos helps a bunch, but the B/g CRUSHES the mono black mirror anyway.
Putrefy is largely unneeded and Hero's Downfall is still an absolute four. Always. I have no experience with Vraska, the Unseen. It's really only good against control, and I still think that Duress and more Erebos goes much much further than a planeswalker that's as slow and low impact.
Ok, you are right about the mana for the green cards.
I took out Nykthos, should i also cut 1-2 Swamps for 2-3 Temple of Mystery ?
I also took out Putrefy for the 4th Hero´s Downfall.
Hmm, i do think Golgari Charm has its uses in the MB, since it can kill Whip/Bident/Assemble the Legion/Legion´s Initiative. The other abilities of Golgari Charm are also useful.
But i have to say, i dont know it. My Mono Black Devotion Deck is much more straight forward, i dont have that many doubts about card xy, like i do with the B/G Devotion Deck.
I also cut 1 Vraska for 1 more Erebos.
It really isnt an easy decision :/
No, off color temples is really not what you want to be doing.
Golgari Charm I wouldn't main more than one, and would side at least 2 more.
Round 1: UG Simic Prophet Biomancer MasterOfWaves 2-1 (Win)
Pretty much a Mono Blue splash green to power Master of Wave tokens through Biomancer, setting up tempo through Prophet to keep mana up for counter spell of drop threats if there's nothing to answer. Thoughtseize ripped the hand apart g1 and Gary closed up the game. Game 2 was a mulligan to 6(lack of lands and not wrong colors) stuck on 2 lands for 2 turns and it was over when opponent could overload Cyclonic Rifts. Game 3 Thoughtseize x 2 + Lifebane tore the hand apart, answered Frostburn Weird with Abrupt Decay and kept the Ultimate Price for the Master of Waves was game.
Round 2: Mono Black Devotion 2-0 (Win)
A stock list, with Nightveil Specters over Lifebane Zombies(thank god for Abrupt Decays yet again). Him tapping out for Underworld Connections smugly got answered swiftly before I landed my own to start burying him in card advantage.
Round 3: Mono Blue Devotion 1-2 (Loss)
Another stock list of mono blue devotion, game 1 I kept a 5 lander with thoughtseize + underworld connections, but I only saw more lands and connections and helped my opponent killed me. Would've been dead even if I didn't splash. Game 2 was better, I was able to answer his threats to deactivate thassa, Hero's Downfall on his pumped frostburn weird, he didn't judge familiar tax me, so I proceeded to tap 2 more mana to abrupt decay his nightveil specter smugly. Gary showed up to claw me out from the pits. Game 3 was when everything went wrong, kept a hand with thoughtseize, 3 assorted answers and 3 assorted lands... I just drew answer after answer and saw 0 critters. Thassa on the other hand game him insane card quality and I shortly died, again, I would've been doomed otherwise even if I had not been splashing.
Round 4: Mono White Aggro splash red for Boros Charm 2-0 (Win)
Abrupt Decay mvp of game 1, destroying the Spear of Heliod which enabled me to trade my rats with his creatures. I never allowed my life to go below 5 for fear of Boros Charm, and traded at every opportunity to preserve my life total before a pair of gary showed up with whip. Game 2 he led the game with Soldier of the Pantheon, Daring Skyjek and Imposing Sovereign. After several atttempts to pick the creatures off with removal thwarted with Brave the Elements, I ripped a Golgari Charm and boardwiped him at instant speed for a measly 2 mana, hardly broke a swear afterwards.
Round 5: Esper Control 2-1 (Win)
Underworld Connections again the card that ran away with game 1. With the assistance of Abrupt Decay, the Detention Sphere that attempted to stop my drawing got nuked. Game 2 for some reason I made the folly of not boarding in Devour Flesh and got cleaned up by a pair of vampires. Game 3 was a long tug of war involving 2 AoTs, 2 BloodBarons and 2 Detention Spheres and multiple Sphinxes, I was able to pull ahead. Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay and Reaper of the Wilds trio makes it so difficult for them to answer everything. Granted this matchup is considered easy even without a splash, I was very happy with all 3 of my green spells and it made Detention Sphere super awkward for my opponent.
Round 6: Mono Red 0-0 (ID to top 8)
Round 7: Esper Control 2-0 (Win)
Game 1 my rats pressured him into dumping a sphere for them, whereas the 2nd one attempted to stop my underworld connections got answered by a timely abrupt decay. Game 2 Reaper of the Wilds having pseudo-hexproof is invaluable as it can only be answered partially with a Verdict, whipping it back ensured a sure connect 4 damage. Coupled with Rats(who he can't properly answer again due to my charms and decays), closed out the game quickly.
Top 4'ed and decided to split as nobody needed the bye and some were going to watch Thor. Top 8 was well-represented, 2 Esper Control, Naya Control, Mono Blue Devotion, 2 Mono Red Aggro, B/g Devotion and U/W Control.
I'll take this to the next few events, Abrupt Decay is just too good to not be playing for this deck. With the ratio of Green sources 8 : 4(spells that need to be cast timely: AbruptDecay/GolgariCharm, I always noted the ratio), the splash actually did much good. I was very disheartened going into the tournament when I woke up and read all the naysayers about the green splash right before shuffling up, but had no time to change the decklist to mono black with corrupt(yes sweet corrupt! loved it and would like to try it too!), but it worked for the better, though I would've seriously liked to see how'd I do against mono red aggro...
Final notes on the green splash:
I really like the ratio of Desecration Demon : Reaper of the Wilds split as 3:2, Demon you wanna run it out early, if it gets answered so be it, if you can't answer it, well good luck buddy. Whereas Reaper is something you wish to cast as a pseudo-Prognostic Sphinx against control, and since it's your splash color you run it in lesser quantity than the Demon as well. This only makes my deck have 3 urgent green source required cards via Abrupt Decay. Let's face it, at 8/25 lands that provide green, there's a pretty good chance by turn 5/6 the turn you want to cast Reaper against control/midrange, you can cast it. Also Reaper does serious work against aggro, brickwalling them and granting card quality, scrying into Gary. Also top 8 Esper Control had to Verdict(includes some Elspeth soldiers), I got to scry a total of 6 x 1 times, which finally found me Gary on the 6th scry, it was so insanely rewarding, bottoming the plethora of Swamps and Thoughtseize midgame till I found what I needed. 1/3 of your lands having green to just support 1/10 of the deck running green is fine...
i guess we will have to wait for the new edition to get our Black/Green Scryland (maybe ...).
I also would like to ask some questions about your deck.
What´s your reason for not playing Nightveil Specter at all ?
You put both Erebos Cards in the SB, why did you do that ?
How did the additional Dark Betrayal removel perform in the match against Mono Black Devotion ?
You have only 1 duress in your sb, why ?
Whats your reason for the 4th abrupt decay ?
I still want to figure out, how i should line up my deck and sideboard, thats why i did ask a lot of questions :).
Yup the lack of scry hurts, but I'm not jealous, we just draw so much with UC and Erebos sometimes scrying is just icing on the cake.
One thing I always didn't like about Nightveil Specter was that it is really good only as a turn 3 play. The Mutavaults are extremely necessary for a deck with rats. Lifebane Zombies shores up my bad matchup G/R devotion, for some reason, Garruk #2 shows up after I thoughtseize and I'd lose, the ability to remove threats from their hand so that I can save Downfall for Garruk is far important to me anyways and unlike the Specter, I have no problem trading the Zombies away against aggro all the time. And the zombies have been allstars against jace and elspeths, where you wouldn't want your specters to hits them anyways.
I felt that Erebos main is very dead against aggro decks, plus with 1 less devotion in my 3 drop spot, it felt necessary to sideboard him. The 1 Duress was a result of a last minute change. I originally ran 2 Duress and 1 Erebos instead, however, a quick sweep of the field I saw too much black and supreme verdicts and quickly made that swap as Erebos improves both of my matchups against the mirror and control as well.
Dark Betrayal is good. It was a meta call as I knew there'd be many black decks, but against an unknown field I wouldn't play more than 1. Decay is always the right removal against aggressive decks, and would've been a lifesaver if I had the fourth 1 against mono blue / aggro instead of the 2 pithing needles I barely used... It just answers so many things and the uncounterability is very relevant. It also complements my removal suite of favoring ultimate price over doom blades as what the ultimate price can't hit, abrupt decay does.
Anyone have advice when playing against G devotion or Gr aggro decks?
I find myself unable to cope with their mana ramp + mistcutter hydra, arbor colossus, garruk, and poulakranos. Removal is too slow, desecration demon isn't very useful since they either tap it or just play a deadly recluse, and I can't get enough devotion built to gray merchant effectively before their board has >5 creatures on it by turn 3 or 4.
I've sided out underworld connections here for cyclonic rift, and desecration demon for lifebane zombie, but the decks are too fast and I can't seem to keep up. Whip is gone too since it's too slow, replaced with more removal/pharika's cure to remove voyaging satyrs and the like, but I still can't seem to lower their life fast enough to prevent four 9/9's swinging at once.
I'm definatly very pleased with the green splash, gives me so many answers that black just doesn't have. the one-off Deathrite Shaman was to test him out, he has been overperforming every time he has hit the table, will definatly increase that to 2 or 3. Tried out Reaper of the wilds and was pretty disappointed, as awesome as it looks on paper I was never impressed by its performance. Might change the manabase a little bit to get some temples of mystery, too many tapped lands does worry me tho as the fast aggro decks are quite a pain and they did very well at the SCG Open event this weekend. I've completely cut Duress from my 75 didn't feel like it was needed as much anymore now that i have some decent green responses instead, and control isn't that big in my local meta atm.
What exactly does Deathrite Shaman overperform at? Just doesn't seem like it would be relevant in many matchups at all.
So I ended up getting 3rd place at the GPT with a pretty stock mono B list. Only big differences is no dark betrayals in the board, but 2 pithing needles. I only dropped 2 matches both where to mono U both to the same player. In all 2 matches across 4/5 games I got mana screwed hard, while he had the nuttiest top decks I've seen for a while (I.E. I thoughtseize him turn 2, take a specter, on his turn 3 he top decks another specter and plays it, I thoughtseize away a thassa, he top decks another, I save a kill spell for his Master and he top decks a Mizzium Skins for it).
I even play tested against him in between final round and top 8 and I went 4-2 there, but when it counted I just stumbled, really frustrating.
The rest of the matches were GW aggro, went 2-0 just 1 for 1'd him into demons and garys.
Round 2 was against Mythic Dega, Game 1 he stumbled on lands and I punished him for it. Game 2 was super close but he landed a whip with Reckoners out and got there. Game 3 was again super close but I was able to rip apart his hand with Seizes, Duresses, and Zombies, then landed connections and a whip and just grinded out CA until I got Garys to close out the game.
Round 3 was against BW midrange. Game 1 I just crushed him with demons, whip, garys, and connections. Game 2 I got pack rat online with a whip in play, but he had high priest of penance out and 2 fiendslayer paladins. So it was a stalemated board until I could get enough big rats to swing through for profit and then again the following turn for game.
Round 4 was the Mono U. Round 5 was a draw and I played some games against Mono U as I stated.
Quarterfinals was a rematch verse mythic Dega. Game 1 was really close but he was able to drop an Aurelia and do exactly lethal. Game 2 he mulled to 6, kept a 2 land hand, stalled on 2 lands for a very long time, which was very awkward because I had a hand full of removal and limited threats (though I was able to blind name Elspeth with my pithing needle turn 1, to thoughtseize him turn 2 to see he had Elspeth in hand, was kind of cool, but not relevant). Eventually I was able to drop some threats (which where killed immediately from all his removal) but a whip ended up winning the game by getting me back all my creatures. Game 3 was really tight, I had a super removal heavy hand, he had a threat dense hand, and I was forced to Devour Flesh 2 of his demons and a BBV and he got up to like 32 life, while I was killing myself with thoughtseizes, and then I flooded out while he just started drawing removal. I eventually got a connections out when I had 8 lands, which drew me into another connections, which drew me into more lands. He Teared one of my connections to prevent me from just drowning him in CA. After a couple of turns of drawing more lands I got a whip out followed by some Gary's. And that was enough to start bringing down his life total while bringing me out from low teens. I ended up winning by devour fleshing myself to sac a gray merchant who was being helixed, then whipping it back same turn for lethal, and preventing him from stabilizing.
Semifinals was against the same Mono U deck earlier. Game 1 I saw 3 lands until turn 7 and then died immediately after. Game 2 I saw 3 lands until turn 5 which let me play my whip, and then didn't see my 5th land until turn 7, while I had 3 Gary's in hand. I also Thoughtseized him twice, and Duressed him once, took away all of his business spells, but he top decked like a boss and got there. If I were to have hit my land drops more reliably I would have been able to push through a win easy. Was really lame, he also played very terribly and made a lot of play mistakes which was really really annoying that I lost to him.
Overall I think Mono B is still just way too consistent to be bothering to splash colors. The fact that you damn near never have to mulligan in Mono B and don't have to worry about color screw outside of BBB is really nice. I got MNM tomorrow night and I'll definitely just keep Mono B sleeved up as is until there's a major meta swing, or the next set comes out.
What is the learning curve for the deck? One of my friends told me he wants to play Black at an upcoming tourney and I was looking at this as a potential option for him.
He isnt new, but he also doesnt play competitive decks much.
Im posting this here as im not really looking for a "what deck should he play" and more of a "what are the things I should relay to him about this deck."
What is the learning curve for the deck? One of my friends told me he wants to play Black at an upcoming tourney and I was looking at this as a potential option for him.
He isnt new, but he also doesnt play competitive decks much.
Im posting this here as im not really looking for a "what deck should he play" and more of a "what are the things I should relay to him about this deck."
This is one of the easier decks to play to be honest. Answer obvious threats, get permanents on the board, play Gray Merchant, win.
That said, like *any* deck there will be choices, and you do have to manage your life decently.
What is the learning curve for the deck? One of my friends told me he wants to play Black at an upcoming tourney and I was looking at this as a potential option for him.
He isnt new, but he also doesnt play competitive decks much.
Im posting this here as im not really looking for a "what deck should he play" and more of a "what are the things I should relay to him about this deck."
Basically mapping out a game plan when looking at your opener. Envision how you are going to win the game w/ that hand. Not always casting Thoughtseize on turn 1 to allow the opponent another draw step that you could get something better. With the above, not being afraid to thoughtseize turn 2 because outside of the few 2 mana removals in the deck, we don't do a lot. Prioritizing certain cards in certain matchups. The mirror is all about Pack Rat and Underworld Connections (and to a lesser extent Nightveil Specter). Proper sequencing of removal is good practice as well, as you might want to cast a Hero's Downfall on turn 3 so that you can play two 2-mana removal spells on turn 4 if necessary. The opposite is also true. Against the green devotion decks, you might have to take a hit from one of their large monsters in order to keep a Downfall for their Garruk, because if you do not remove that card, the game is basically impossible to win (have to have running Gray Merchants basically).
Essentially all it boils down to is knowing what is important in a given matchup. Fast aggro decks are a difficult matchup because our answers cost more mana than their primary threats. Boarding into a lower curve deck so you can have a lot more low drop removal spells is important for survival. The opposite is true against hte control decks. The only removal you really want to leave in against, say, Esper are probably Hero's Downfall and Devour Flesh. Threats have to be extremely efficient in this matchup, because you cannot overcommit or you'll get wrecked by a sweeper. Opposing midrange matchups are primarily about Thoughtseize and Underworld Connections. Being able to see their hand to know what you ahve to prepare for and Connections is obviously to get ahead, as you can answer most things played on a 1 for 1 basis.
Hopefully this helps your friend out a lot. The decks here (whatever splash they play or not) are all very powerful and at the core are trying to accomplish the same thing. I've been having a blast playing the deck.
My only issue with letting him play this deck is his aversion to paying life for stuff, like 'sieze. But hopefully this teaches him why its usuallly good.
Are there anythings a casua observer might not pick up on? Something like Pack Rats copies adding to devotion (usually with tokens, they have no mana cost, so I've seen people trip up on it)
The biggest thing with this deck is understanding that your life is a resource more than anything else. There's also a lot of cute interactions within the deck that take time to pick up on. Playing with Pack Rat is probably one of the toughest things to learn, knowing when to go in on the pack rat, when to let it die, how to play around blow out cards like wraths, elspeth -3, Dsphere, Anger of the Gods, etc... There's also a lot of nuances with whip that are important and can create game winning plays. Things like killing your own creatures in response to chain to the rocks or Dsphere to put the card in your GY to whip it back later (or to protect copies of a card from a Dsphere since if the targeted creature is no longer on the battlefield when the Dsphere resolves it doesn't nab the rest of the cards), knowing when to put Connections on non-swamp lands, thoughtseizing yourself to put a Demon or creature in the yard to whip it back to make a lethal attack, and many other small counter-intuitive plays that take the deck from something that's good, to something that's amazing.
The best way to go about it is watch some videos, and play test the deck as much as possible before actually putting it in a tournament. BBDs vs Videos notes a lot of interesting interactions about the deck, as well as the videos from GP Louisville.
Before you even said that, I was probably going to give him BBD's list (It looked like a good place to start from for Mono-B devotion)
The issue is that the tourney was a couple weeks out and is now this upcoming weekend. Luckily, I have the card selection to help him test jus about any deck.
Before you even said that, I was probably going to give him BBD's list (It looked like a good place to start from for Mono-B devotion)
The issue is that the tourney was a couple weeks out and is now this upcoming weekend. Luckily, I have the card selection to help him test jus about any deck.
This is the deck you'll want him to run. It's fun, it's a little harder to play but it's more rewarding.
We're not an aggro deck, and we're not a control deck. Our game plan is fill the board with permanents, drop merchants and (if possible) whip them back for game.
Things he may not pick up on:
Pack Rat counts for devotion, as it does not create a token, it creates a copy of pack rat.
Mutavault boosts Pack Rats ATK as it counts as a rat.
You can devour flesh your own Desecration Demon if it's being tapped the entire game and your life is low.
Always try and use Underworld Connections at the end step of your opponents turn.
due to recent testings (comparing Mono Black Devotion with Bw Devotion) i decided to go for straight MonoB. But after all I ask my self, has somebody tested playing Pack Rat as a 3- or 4-of? That card just overperforms for me in so many situations that I would like to have 2/3 in my mainboard and maybe another 1/2 in the sideboard.
Further I am thinking about Mogis's Marauder. Is that card maybe worth to be included? Playing it while having a Pack Rat online, could end the game pretty fast. But I feel like this card is better to be played in aggro lists. Has anyone opinions about this card?
Depending on me having enough time, i will test further splashes. But currently I think the only splash that could be worth it is the green one and even there i am not quiet sure.
Greetz
TKB
Mogis's Marauder is a bad card in this deck. We don't win by attacking, we win by fat board presence/life drain.
In regards to BBD's deck, I need help understanding what situations to use some cards in the sideboard. Specifically, Duress and Erebos, God of the Dead.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Also... I think it'd far better to just kill them out right than to bother with assembling. I mean, maybe red offers more with slaughter games or something, but even at that so very often I just was wanting to just cast grey merchant for the win.
Lot of the time I kiinda mana piddled for a long time in a lot of games. I tried the exact b/g list at the front of this primer, and while it had LolTroll instead of P.rat I can't help but thing that Ben should never have been moved out of the deck. Shrug. Thats not to say people shouldn't TEST the other colors, but that my test was less that amazing.
I can actually get behind that pretty well actually, corrupt as gary's number 5 or 6 depending on how you end up working it.
Also I watch the video "the other guy" mentioned over on youtube and here's the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9JSR6TJGDs#t=1105
It's pretty lopsided, but mirrors my own thoughts about that match up. I just want to basically cast drain life over and over again, and black has a legacy of doing just that. So I think it might be best to just focus on that plan with little variance. There might be a card that forces something different eventually but whatever it is, it certainly isn't there yet.
there was 1 game where my opponent was up to 35 hp while i was down to 7. I still won that game thanks to multiple gray merchant + whips. that game made me realize that I want my deck to be more consistent in draining life. Will take out the blue and throw in some corrupts
The green cards that are left in the 75 include 3 abrupt decay, 1 putrefy main/1 in the sideboard, 1 gaze of granite maindeck, and one golgari charm in the board. Decay is obviously the most important card, and I think I am going to eventually play all 4 somewhere in the 75, probably going to put one in the board replacing one of the removal spells that are currently there.
who said anything about forests ? 4 overgrown tombs and 4 guildgates is 8 green sources a forest would be flat out terrible in this deck
Just quoting/bumping for more discussion on this build.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
I posted that in response to someone saying they couldn't cast abrupt decay because they only had 8 green sources in a MBDg deck. At this point, I am assuming I misinterpreted what was stated. I had read it as 8 sources out, all only being green, which is why he was unable to cast AD, not that it was just 8 sources in the deck as a total.
Any ideas on how we can deal with both of those things ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
I had none of this problem at all whatsoever. I just came back from a 40man GPT with 6 swiss rounds, 4-1-1 into top 8, top 4 split for prizes as it was getting late. Yes it's a small turnout but every competitive deck is present and well represented...
I can assure you the splash is more than worth it and vastly improved at least 2 out of the 5(6th round ID) rounds and without Green I would've punted like every other monoblack and not have made top 8.
Tournament report is in the making...
I'd see you are gonna have problems with too much green cards in hand a lot of the time. Golgari Charm is more suited for the sideboard, there's not enough decls that warrant it that Abrupt Decay don't already solve.
Nykthos, while it's nice to have, isn't necessary in the slash version as it seriously just messes up more of the manabase and add more mulligans. The games where you can Nykthos for lots is win-more, this is what I've realised over lots of games. Of course, in the mirror, Nykthos helps a bunch, but the B/g CRUSHES the mono black mirror anyway.
Putrefy is largely unneeded and Hero's Downfall is still an absolute four. Always. I have no experience with Vraska, the Unseen. It's really only good against control, and I still think that Duress and more Erebos goes much much further than a planeswalker that's as slow and low impact.
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
No, off color temples is really not what you want to be doing.
Golgari Charm I wouldn't main more than one, and would side at least 2 more.
Vraska is just lackluster imo...
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
2 Pack Rat
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Desecration Demon
2 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Enchantments [6]
4 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
Sorceries [4]
4 Thoughtseize
1 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
1 Devour Flesh
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hero's Downfall
Lands [25]
3 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Golgari Guildgate
14 Swamp
GPT Round Report:
Pretty much a Mono Blue splash green to power Master of Wave tokens through Biomancer, setting up tempo through Prophet to keep mana up for counter spell of drop threats if there's nothing to answer. Thoughtseize ripped the hand apart g1 and Gary closed up the game. Game 2 was a mulligan to 6(lack of lands and not wrong colors) stuck on 2 lands for 2 turns and it was over when opponent could overload Cyclonic Rifts. Game 3 Thoughtseize x 2 + Lifebane tore the hand apart, answered Frostburn Weird with Abrupt Decay and kept the Ultimate Price for the Master of Waves was game.
Round 2: Mono Black Devotion 2-0 (Win)
A stock list, with Nightveil Specters over Lifebane Zombies(thank god for Abrupt Decays yet again). Him tapping out for Underworld Connections smugly got answered swiftly before I landed my own to start burying him in card advantage.
Round 3: Mono Blue Devotion 1-2 (Loss)
Another stock list of mono blue devotion, game 1 I kept a 5 lander with thoughtseize + underworld connections, but I only saw more lands and connections and helped my opponent killed me. Would've been dead even if I didn't splash. Game 2 was better, I was able to answer his threats to deactivate thassa, Hero's Downfall on his pumped frostburn weird, he didn't judge familiar tax me, so I proceeded to tap 2 more mana to abrupt decay his nightveil specter smugly. Gary showed up to claw me out from the pits. Game 3 was when everything went wrong, kept a hand with thoughtseize, 3 assorted answers and 3 assorted lands... I just drew answer after answer and saw 0 critters. Thassa on the other hand game him insane card quality and I shortly died, again, I would've been doomed otherwise even if I had not been splashing.
Round 4: Mono White Aggro splash red for Boros Charm 2-0 (Win)
Abrupt Decay mvp of game 1, destroying the Spear of Heliod which enabled me to trade my rats with his creatures. I never allowed my life to go below 5 for fear of Boros Charm, and traded at every opportunity to preserve my life total before a pair of gary showed up with whip. Game 2 he led the game with Soldier of the Pantheon, Daring Skyjek and Imposing Sovereign. After several atttempts to pick the creatures off with removal thwarted with Brave the Elements, I ripped a Golgari Charm and boardwiped him at instant speed for a measly 2 mana, hardly broke a swear afterwards.
Round 5: Esper Control 2-1 (Win)
Underworld Connections again the card that ran away with game 1. With the assistance of Abrupt Decay, the Detention Sphere that attempted to stop my drawing got nuked. Game 2 for some reason I made the folly of not boarding in Devour Flesh and got cleaned up by a pair of vampires. Game 3 was a long tug of war involving 2 AoTs, 2 BloodBarons and 2 Detention Spheres and multiple Sphinxes, I was able to pull ahead. Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay and Reaper of the Wilds trio makes it so difficult for them to answer everything. Granted this matchup is considered easy even without a splash, I was very happy with all 3 of my green spells and it made Detention Sphere super awkward for my opponent.
Round 6: Mono Red 0-0 (ID to top 8)
Round 7: Esper Control 2-0 (Win)
Game 1 my rats pressured him into dumping a sphere for them, whereas the 2nd one attempted to stop my underworld connections got answered by a timely abrupt decay. Game 2 Reaper of the Wilds having pseudo-hexproof is invaluable as it can only be answered partially with a Verdict, whipping it back ensured a sure connect 4 damage. Coupled with Rats(who he can't properly answer again due to my charms and decays), closed out the game quickly.
Top 4'ed and decided to split as nobody needed the bye and some were going to watch Thor. Top 8 was well-represented, 2 Esper Control, Naya Control, Mono Blue Devotion, 2 Mono Red Aggro, B/g Devotion and U/W Control.
Going forward:
2 Pack Rat
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Desecration Demon
2 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Enchantments [6]
4 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
Sorceries [4]
4 Thoughtseize
1 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
1 Devour Flesh
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hero's Downfall
Lands [25]
3 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Golgari Guildgate
14 Swamp
I'll take this to the next few events, Abrupt Decay is just too good to not be playing for this deck. With the ratio of Green sources 8 : 4(spells that need to be cast timely: AbruptDecay/GolgariCharm, I always noted the ratio), the splash actually did much good. I was very disheartened going into the tournament when I woke up and read all the naysayers about the green splash right before shuffling up, but had no time to change the decklist to mono black with corrupt(yes sweet corrupt! loved it and would like to try it too!), but it worked for the better, though I would've seriously liked to see how'd I do against mono red aggro...
Final notes on the green splash:
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
Yup the lack of scry hurts, but I'm not jealous, we just draw so much with UC and Erebos sometimes scrying is just icing on the cake.
One thing I always didn't like about Nightveil Specter was that it is really good only as a turn 3 play. The Mutavaults are extremely necessary for a deck with rats. Lifebane Zombies shores up my bad matchup G/R devotion, for some reason, Garruk #2 shows up after I thoughtseize and I'd lose, the ability to remove threats from their hand so that I can save Downfall for Garruk is far important to me anyways and unlike the Specter, I have no problem trading the Zombies away against aggro all the time. And the zombies have been allstars against jace and elspeths, where you wouldn't want your specters to hits them anyways.
I felt that Erebos main is very dead against aggro decks, plus with 1 less devotion in my 3 drop spot, it felt necessary to sideboard him. The 1 Duress was a result of a last minute change. I originally ran 2 Duress and 1 Erebos instead, however, a quick sweep of the field I saw too much black and supreme verdicts and quickly made that swap as Erebos improves both of my matchups against the mirror and control as well.
Dark Betrayal is good. It was a meta call as I knew there'd be many black decks, but against an unknown field I wouldn't play more than 1. Decay is always the right removal against aggressive decks, and would've been a lifesaver if I had the fourth 1 against mono blue / aggro instead of the 2 pithing needles I barely used... It just answers so many things and the uncounterability is very relevant. It also complements my removal suite of favoring ultimate price over doom blades as what the ultimate price can't hit, abrupt decay does.
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
I find myself unable to cope with their mana ramp + mistcutter hydra, arbor colossus, garruk, and poulakranos. Removal is too slow, desecration demon isn't very useful since they either tap it or just play a deadly recluse, and I can't get enough devotion built to gray merchant effectively before their board has >5 creatures on it by turn 3 or 4.
I've sided out underworld connections here for cyclonic rift, and desecration demon for lifebane zombie, but the decks are too fast and I can't seem to keep up. Whip is gone too since it's too slow, replaced with more removal/pharika's cure to remove voyaging satyrs and the like, but I still can't seem to lower their life fast enough to prevent four 9/9's swinging at once.
What exactly does Deathrite Shaman overperform at? Just doesn't seem like it would be relevant in many matchups at all.
I even play tested against him in between final round and top 8 and I went 4-2 there, but when it counted I just stumbled, really frustrating.
The rest of the matches were GW aggro, went 2-0 just 1 for 1'd him into demons and garys.
Round 2 was against Mythic Dega, Game 1 he stumbled on lands and I punished him for it. Game 2 was super close but he landed a whip with Reckoners out and got there. Game 3 was again super close but I was able to rip apart his hand with Seizes, Duresses, and Zombies, then landed connections and a whip and just grinded out CA until I got Garys to close out the game.
Round 3 was against BW midrange. Game 1 I just crushed him with demons, whip, garys, and connections. Game 2 I got pack rat online with a whip in play, but he had high priest of penance out and 2 fiendslayer paladins. So it was a stalemated board until I could get enough big rats to swing through for profit and then again the following turn for game.
Round 4 was the Mono U. Round 5 was a draw and I played some games against Mono U as I stated.
Quarterfinals was a rematch verse mythic Dega. Game 1 was really close but he was able to drop an Aurelia and do exactly lethal. Game 2 he mulled to 6, kept a 2 land hand, stalled on 2 lands for a very long time, which was very awkward because I had a hand full of removal and limited threats (though I was able to blind name Elspeth with my pithing needle turn 1, to thoughtseize him turn 2 to see he had Elspeth in hand, was kind of cool, but not relevant). Eventually I was able to drop some threats (which where killed immediately from all his removal) but a whip ended up winning the game by getting me back all my creatures. Game 3 was really tight, I had a super removal heavy hand, he had a threat dense hand, and I was forced to Devour Flesh 2 of his demons and a BBV and he got up to like 32 life, while I was killing myself with thoughtseizes, and then I flooded out while he just started drawing removal. I eventually got a connections out when I had 8 lands, which drew me into another connections, which drew me into more lands. He Teared one of my connections to prevent me from just drowning him in CA. After a couple of turns of drawing more lands I got a whip out followed by some Gary's. And that was enough to start bringing down his life total while bringing me out from low teens. I ended up winning by devour fleshing myself to sac a gray merchant who was being helixed, then whipping it back same turn for lethal, and preventing him from stabilizing.
Semifinals was against the same Mono U deck earlier. Game 1 I saw 3 lands until turn 7 and then died immediately after. Game 2 I saw 3 lands until turn 5 which let me play my whip, and then didn't see my 5th land until turn 7, while I had 3 Gary's in hand. I also Thoughtseized him twice, and Duressed him once, took away all of his business spells, but he top decked like a boss and got there. If I were to have hit my land drops more reliably I would have been able to push through a win easy. Was really lame, he also played very terribly and made a lot of play mistakes which was really really annoying that I lost to him.
Overall I think Mono B is still just way too consistent to be bothering to splash colors. The fact that you damn near never have to mulligan in Mono B and don't have to worry about color screw outside of BBB is really nice. I got MNM tomorrow night and I'll definitely just keep Mono B sleeved up as is until there's a major meta swing, or the next set comes out.
He isnt new, but he also doesnt play competitive decks much.
Im posting this here as im not really looking for a "what deck should he play" and more of a "what are the things I should relay to him about this deck."
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThis is one of the easier decks to play to be honest. Answer obvious threats, get permanents on the board, play Gray Merchant, win.
That said, like *any* deck there will be choices, and you do have to manage your life decently.
Basically mapping out a game plan when looking at your opener. Envision how you are going to win the game w/ that hand. Not always casting Thoughtseize on turn 1 to allow the opponent another draw step that you could get something better. With the above, not being afraid to thoughtseize turn 2 because outside of the few 2 mana removals in the deck, we don't do a lot. Prioritizing certain cards in certain matchups. The mirror is all about Pack Rat and Underworld Connections (and to a lesser extent Nightveil Specter). Proper sequencing of removal is good practice as well, as you might want to cast a Hero's Downfall on turn 3 so that you can play two 2-mana removal spells on turn 4 if necessary. The opposite is also true. Against the green devotion decks, you might have to take a hit from one of their large monsters in order to keep a Downfall for their Garruk, because if you do not remove that card, the game is basically impossible to win (have to have running Gray Merchants basically).
Essentially all it boils down to is knowing what is important in a given matchup. Fast aggro decks are a difficult matchup because our answers cost more mana than their primary threats. Boarding into a lower curve deck so you can have a lot more low drop removal spells is important for survival. The opposite is true against hte control decks. The only removal you really want to leave in against, say, Esper are probably Hero's Downfall and Devour Flesh. Threats have to be extremely efficient in this matchup, because you cannot overcommit or you'll get wrecked by a sweeper. Opposing midrange matchups are primarily about Thoughtseize and Underworld Connections. Being able to see their hand to know what you ahve to prepare for and Connections is obviously to get ahead, as you can answer most things played on a 1 for 1 basis.
Hopefully this helps your friend out a lot. The decks here (whatever splash they play or not) are all very powerful and at the core are trying to accomplish the same thing. I've been having a blast playing the deck.
My only issue with letting him play this deck is his aversion to paying life for stuff, like 'sieze. But hopefully this teaches him why its usuallly good.
Are there anythings a casua observer might not pick up on? Something like Pack Rats copies adding to devotion (usually with tokens, they have no mana cost, so I've seen people trip up on it)
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThe best way to go about it is watch some videos, and play test the deck as much as possible before actually putting it in a tournament. BBDs vs Videos notes a lot of interesting interactions about the deck, as well as the videos from GP Louisville.
The issue is that the tourney was a couple weeks out and is now this upcoming weekend. Luckily, I have the card selection to help him test jus about any deck.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThis is the deck you'll want him to run. It's fun, it's a little harder to play but it's more rewarding.
We're not an aggro deck, and we're not a control deck. Our game plan is fill the board with permanents, drop merchants and (if possible) whip them back for game.
Things he may not pick up on:
Pack Rat counts for devotion, as it does not create a token, it creates a copy of pack rat.
Mutavault boosts Pack Rats ATK as it counts as a rat.
You can devour flesh your own Desecration Demon if it's being tapped the entire game and your life is low.
Always try and use Underworld Connections at the end step of your opponents turn.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
Mogis's Marauder is a bad card in this deck. We don't win by attacking, we win by fat board presence/life drain.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R