Just now I've been trying to figure out an SB for the deck once BNG comes in, and it's quite a tight spot.
Duress should still be in the SB, and IMO as a 4-of. Raping control's hand is the best path to victory against them, you want as much 1-mana discard/peek spells as you can.
Lifebane Zombie should stay, at least as a 3-of. Green creatures will still be played, and I'm predicting more white creatures, so it's still a very relevant card.
I'm also for still keeping 4 copies of Devour Flesh in the 75, and with Bile Blight entering the MD common sense says you cut some Devour Flesh and move them to the side - 2 seems to be the common number whenever I ask other MBD players.
That's 9 slots taken, meaning 6 slots have to go to some combination of:
Of the 4, I'm partial towards Doom Blade and Drown in Sorrow. Doom Blade will help against decks like R/G monsters and WW, especially since they get creatures that are out of Bile Blight range (Courser of Kruphix and Brimaz are good examples). I'm seeing Drown at 2-3 copies as well.
With the deck getting Bile Blight which is still strong in the mirror, is there still a need for Dark Betrayal? The most notable difference is that Betrayal kills Desecration Demon while one Bile Blight does not. If this happens then SB'ing for the mirror could be shaken up quite a bit - would you leave DD in knowing that you're less likely to see the 1-mana instant that kills it?
And then there's Erebos whom we play mainly for the lifegain shutdown.
--
Moving to another topic:Is it time to cut down on Pack Rat in the main? It's been something I've been asked lately, and I'm not so sure yet. Some people are saying that it's time to go back down to 2/3 with our new cards hurting it as well (Bile Blight). What do you guys think?
I do agree with your point that Duress should be an auto 4 of but to make room for Drown, I had to make the choice of cutting the 4th copy of Duress and Dark Betrayal. But by doing that, I'm sacrificing my edge over the mirror (4th Dark Betrayal has been key in most matchups). I'm not sure if Drown in Sorrow is good enough to cut both of the last copies (Shrivel was a thing and yet I didn't use it).
Also, would having only 2 Devour in MD be risky against opposing BBoVs? Well, I guess that's where Lifebane kicks in.
Just now I've been trying to figure out an SB for the deck once BNG comes in, and it's quite a tight spot.
Duress should still be in the SB, and IMO as a 4-of. Raping control's hand is the best path to victory against them, you want as much 1-mana discard/peek spells as you can.
Lifebane Zombie should stay, at least as a 3-of. Green creatures will still be played, and I'm predicting more white creatures, so it's still a very relevant card.
I'm also for still keeping 4 copies of Devour Flesh in the 75, and with Bile Blight entering the MD common sense says you cut some Devour Flesh and move them to the side - 2 seems to be the common number whenever I ask other MBD players.
That's 9 slots taken, meaning 6 slots have to go to some combination of:
Of the 4, I'm partial towards Doom Blade and Drown in Sorrow. Doom Blade will help against decks like R/G monsters and WW, especially since they get creatures that are out of Bile Blight range (Courser of Kruphix and Brimaz are good examples). I'm seeing Drown at 2-3 copies as well.
With the deck getting Bile Blight which is still strong in the mirror, is there still a need for Dark Betrayal? The most notable difference is that Betrayal kills Desecration Demon while one Bile Blight does not. If this happens then SB'ing for the mirror could be shaken up quite a bit - would you leave DD in knowing that you're less likely to see the 1-mana instant that kills it?
And then there's Erebos whom we play mainly for the lifegain shutdown.
--
Moving to another topic:Is it time to cut down on Pack Rat in the main? It's been something I've been asked lately, and I'm not so sure yet. Some people are saying that it's time to go back down to 2/3 with our new cards hurting it as well (Bile Blight). What do you guys think?
I feel the dark betrayals are not going to be nearly as necessary. The only thing our bile blight doesn't kill is demon (amd gray merchant but meh) but demon is always sided out in the mirror anyway so it will not be an issue. Siding in 2 bile blights on top of 2 already in the mb should be more than enough there.
Lifebane Zombie in MD is just so wrong. And no Pack Rat? Come on, the card is too good.
I'm not building for the current meta, I've built the deck to where I think it will need to be.
My prediction for top decks in the new meta.
Mono Black Control/Devotion
Red Deck Wins (green or white splash)
Mono Blue Devotion
Green Red Monsters
Esper Control
Mono Black gets so many tools, and is already the top deck, so it is pretty obvious this deck is staying up top. That means we will be playing even more mirrors at high level tournaments, which means we will need to begin to skew our deck towards beating Mono Black. I think we can all agree that every good Mono Black deck will play some number of Drown in Sorrow, and Bile Blight in the mainboard. Those both get rid of Pack Rat and 2 or 1 other rats respectively. I definitely want to run a minimum of 2 copies of Drown in Sorrow, making my own Pack Rats quite a bit worse. I think saying that Pack Rat is "too good" in Mono Black is clearly not accurate anymore. Lifebane Zombie is going to have a lot of targets in with all the Big Green Red stompy decks pushing their way to the top tables. I'm sure 4 copies is wrong now, but at the beginning of a new format, I try to keep most cards in sets of 4 to minimize variance. Then once I get a reasonable number of games in, I start cutting back for other more valuable cards. This said, I do agree that 4 copies is wrong in the mainboard, and probably at least 2 of those should be Nightveil Specter. People are still going to be playing Pack Rats in the mainboard for the time being, and I'm just going to be next leveling them by not running my own Rats as targets for these two new powerful kill spells. This will make my deck more streamlined against them, and will give them more dead cards.
I see Mono Red with a splash of green being a top deck at least in the beginning. They now have plenty of good burn spells to throw at their opponent's face, and lots of good early creatures and tempo. Not a deck to ignore.
Mono Blue Devotion has been taking over some tournaments lately. This is where Drown in Sorrow will really shine. Dropping this on turn 3 or 4 will end the game very quickly. I want 4 against this deck.
Green Red Monsters runs Elvish Mystic, Scavenging Ooze, Boon Satyrs, and Xenagos can make a stream of 2/2s. I want a nice clean cut way to deal with all of that. Bile Blight helps a lot in the Xenagos situation, but Drown in Sorrow takes out multiple threats.
And finally we have Esper Control. Clearly Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight are pretty dead here.
I am looking forward to splashing red but I think running 4 drown MD is a mistake. That's a SB card for most. Also gild isn't going to make the cut. I would also add a couple mortars and at least one more erebos. Why no nightveil
Specter?
4 Drown in Sorrow MD may be wrong, but 3 is probably the right number. I'll cut back when I'm sure I don't need that 4th copy. I very much don't think DiS is a mostly SB card, as I stated above.
Why do you think a singleton unrestricted kill spell for 4 mana isn't going to make the cut. With so many decks running large indestructible creatures, it is a good card to have available. Another Mortars is probably needed somewhere in the board. I don't know about adding another Erebos. It may become necessary if we see a significant rise of Esper Control. That said, I already have the Zombies mainboard along with a Mortars, that should be plenty to deal with BBoV, leaving Thoughtseize for other important spells.
And yes, I'll probably be adding Nightveil Specters to the mainboard over some number of Lifebane Zombies. But right now, I'm testing the Zombies out.
Just now I've been trying to figure out an SB for the deck once BNG comes in, and it's quite a tight spot.
Duress should still be in the SB, and IMO as a 4-of. Raping control's hand is the best path to victory against them, you want as much 1-mana discard/peek spells as you can.
Lifebane Zombie should stay, at least as a 3-of. Green creatures will still be played, and I'm predicting more white creatures, so it's still a very relevant card.
I'm also for still keeping 4 copies of Devour Flesh in the 75, and with Bile Blight entering the MD common sense says you cut some Devour Flesh and move them to the side - 2 seems to be the common number whenever I ask other MBD players.
That's 9 slots taken, meaning 6 slots have to go to some combination of:
Of the 4, I'm partial towards Doom Blade and Drown in Sorrow. Doom Blade will help against decks like R/G monsters and WW, especially since they get creatures that are out of Bile Blight range (Courser of Kruphix and Brimaz are good examples). I'm seeing Drown at 2-3 copies as well.
With the deck getting Bile Blight which is still strong in the mirror, is there still a need for Dark Betrayal? The most notable difference is that Betrayal kills Desecration Demon while one Bile Blight does not. If this happens then SB'ing for the mirror could be shaken up quite a bit - would you leave DD in knowing that you're less likely to see the 1-mana instant that kills it?
And then there's Erebos whom we play mainly for the lifegain shutdown.
--
Moving to another topic:Is it time to cut down on Pack Rat in the main? It's been something I've been asked lately, and I'm not so sure yet. Some people are saying that it's time to go back down to 2/3 with our new cards hurting it as well (Bile Blight). What do you guys think?
Nice to see another Arch in here.
I think you're right on the money for most of these topics.
Duress is extremely necessary against control as discard spells are our best weapons against them.
I also foresee more Green and White creatures seeing play, thus why I have skewed my mainboard to deal with those decks.
While I hate to admit it, Devour Flesh is still fairly necessary I think. I'm gonna try and see how I do without the full 4 copies like many in here, but I may end up adding 1-2 in the future.
Drown in Sorrow is my stand out card for our deck in this set. This card allows us to stop playing the midrange game, and to commit fully as a control deck, hence my lack of Pack Rat. I want creatures that are powerful bombs that immediately affect the board, if not that, then they need to create card advantage.
Doom Blade may also become a staple in the deck. Splashing red though, allows us to play Dreadbore, which is better in almost all situations save haste creatures, and not having the red mana available.
I think Erebos can be cut back on, until we see more Esper Control running a ton of Sphinx's Rev, and 3-4 BBoV.
And Finally Dark Betrayal. I think this card should be kept to a minimum in the deck. 0-2 is my number unless we see Mono Black completely take over the meta in the way Faeries, Jund, or Caw-Blade did.
I haven't participated on these forums in a while, and have just been playtesting with a smaller group since I moved out of SoCal. If I'm wrong on any of the points I have made here, please anyone, feel free to correct me. These are just my predictions going forward.
The most notable difference here is the lack of Dark Betrayal. We only typically side them in vs the mirror in g2, where we also 90% of the time side out Desecration Demon. Taking into account the fact that we side out the DD, Bile Blight kills everything except for 4+ rats and Gray Merchant. In my opinion, this frees up space in the sideboard by allowing us to take out the most narrow card we have and replacing it with things that will improve our MU's vs other decks that we normally struggle with. My theory could be completely wrong though. Opinions?
Also, the 1-of Erebos in the side is something I've been doing for a while now to great success. Gives me a slight bump in the mirror and UWx Control g1 if he shows up, and if not then no harm done in my opinion.
I was wondering if taking out pack rat would be the right call, going forward in the meta, or if Pack rat is just that good.
I was thinking of a removal suite of 4x drown in sorrow, 4x bile blight, 4x devour flesh, 4x hero's downfall in the main deck, or is that too much?
You'd be left with Gary, Nightveil, and Desecration to pick up the weight, maybe putting back in a whip or two.
I was wondering if taking out pack rat would be the right call, going forward in the meta, or if Pack rat is just that good.
I was thinking of a removal suite of 4x drown in sorrow, 4x bile blight, 4x devour flesh, 4x hero's downfall in the main deck, or is that too much?
You'd be left with Gary, Nightveil, and Desecration to pick up the weight, maybe putting back in a whip or two.
That looks like way too much removal. UW Control is already not an easy matchup and with this setup you would lose game 1 pretty much every time.
And you will be crushed game 2 also if you dont board in way more threats
Is there anyway of making this deck cheaper for those of us who are on a restricted budet? I don't have the kind of money to spend on thoughtseize/mutavault: Can this deck be viably made without them?
Thanks.
Sorry im going to be 'that guy' but this is the competitive side of the forum, budget discussion is prohibited
I was wondering if taking out pack rat would be the right call, going forward in the meta, or if Pack rat is just that good.
I was thinking of a removal suite of 4x drown in sorrow, 4x bile blight, 4x devour flesh, 4x hero's downfall in the main deck, or is that too much?
You'd be left with Gary, Nightveil, and Desecration to pick up the weight, maybe putting back in a whip or two.
First and foremost, yes I definitely think you are playing way too many removals. And not just because of Esper/UW. But in general you definitely need a follow up play after your flurry of removals, and cutting Pack Rats doesn't work that good in that direction.
About Pack Rats, I feel like people are forgetting the best part in playing them: they make you no more relying on the topdeck. With a Pack Rat out, every blank you draw from the top it's just another Rat, thus increasing your board presence anyway. There's no more bad draws nor irrelevant cards in certain match ups, since Pack Rats turn them all into more board presence.
This is the main reason why I can't see myself cutting them in the near future. At least till we got a better 2 drops to play, of course.
Absolutely agree, Yes Pack Rat in the mirror is now no longer an easy ride to victory, but theres stil any deck not playing wraths or Bile Blight, which, unless we see some new decks is probably still everyone. Thoughtsieze into Pack rat on the play is still going to get the job done outside of control or the mirror match 90% of the time
I can agree with this. There are quite a few people who think(or hope) that Pack Rat doesnt get played that much anymore because of Bile Blight but the truth is Pack Rat is still insane against every non-control, non-black deck. And looking at how many people want to try out new stuff like Xenagos, God of Revels or Brimaz, King of Oreskos I dont see myself cutting that card.
I will probably cut a single copy of the rat but that is because the two decks it won't be at its best against is the top two decks that I think will be played. Depending on how the meta shakes out it may even be right to go to a two of MD.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Custom sig done by Me :3 Current Standard decks
Mono Blue Devotion (MUD)
Dimir Control
Mono Black Devotion (MBD) Current EDH decks
Slivers combo
Vorosh the hunter
Sharrum, the Hedgemon
Start of MTG videos and stuff like that http://www.youtube.com/user/mnmpackchannel
Custom sig done by Me :3 Current Standard decks
Mono Blue Devotion (MUD)
Dimir Control
Mono Black Devotion (MBD) Current EDH decks
Slivers combo
Vorosh the hunter
Sharrum, the Hedgemon
Start of MTG videos and stuff like that http://www.youtube.com/user/mnmpackchannel
Does anyone have any advice for the matchup against Esper? I honestly have no tough matchups every week but when it comes to esper I just feel like I can't beat them. Game 1 is usually an auto loss because detention sphere is good against mono black as well as supreme verdict. After sideboard of course duress comes in and erebos but the longer the game goes the less of a chance I have to win. Sure I can land a underworld but it usually gets countered or d sphered. Plus their Jaces regain so much card advantage. Anyone else having these problems?
What are everyone's thoughts around the more aggressive version of the deck that Brad Nelson put up a week or so ago? using Merchant as a finisher rather than a stabilizer?
Whilst i liked the look of it i think Pain Seer looked awful but i think there is possibly a deck there, personally if we went that angle i'd want to play a couple of Erebos main board and load up with two and three drops to turn him on and then either Herald of Torment bestowed or Merchant at 5 to seal the deal?
What do we think? is regular Mono Black just better or could there actually be a deck here?
Does anyone have any advice for the matchup against Esper? I honestly have no tough matchups every week but when it comes to esper I just feel like I can't beat them. Game 1 is usually an auto loss because detention sphere is good against mono black as well as supreme verdict. After sideboard of course duress comes in and erebos but the longer the game goes the less of a chance I have to win. Sure I can land a underworld but it usually gets countered or d sphered. Plus their Jaces regain so much card advantage. Anyone else having these problems?
Having seen the matchup a lot I would say there is nothing you can really do about it. The matchup is 50/50 at best since they are almost unbeatable late-game with Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Sphinx's Revelation etc. but they also have a hard time dealing with early discard followed up by threats that close out the game fast.
That is the reason Owen Turtenwald sides in his Lifebane Zombies and sides out all removal even all of his Hero's Downfalls since you have to be proactive against them. Sitting back doing nothing leads to a game loss pretty much every time. Underworld Connections helps a lot in drawing more threats before they can take over.
But you have to accept that they run the more powerful cards in the end and that Sphinx's Revelation will eventually trump everything you could be doing. I mean Jon Stern lost against Alexander Hayne 0-2 in the semi-finals at GP Vancouver even though he had all four Underworld Connections and drawed like 15+ cards with them in one game. It happens. That is the nature of the matchup I would say.
TL;DR Be as proactive as you against them. Side in all threats and discard that you have.
Well would it be good to run a couple copies of Disciple of Phenax if you were expecting a lot of Esper Control? A 1/3 isn't that much of a threat yet it is another body. But more importantly, it comes with another discard spell that can hit anything from BBoV to Elspeth, to Sphinx's Rev.
Well would it be good to run a couple copies of Disciple of Phenax if you were expecting a lot of Esper Control? A 1/3 isn't that much of a threat yet it is another body. But more importantly, it comes with another discard spell that can hit anything from BBoV to Elspeth, to Sphinx's Rev.
Sadly, no. Vs control its not likely that our devotion is going to be high enough for Disciple of Phenax to be effective. In addition, it gives the opponent the choice of which cards to show us. Say you play her when d=3 but they have6 cards in hand. Theyre going to show you their weakest cards and gold on to their sphinx rev's and win cons. With 4x thoughtseize and 4x duress, you can pick out indiviual cards from their whole hand for just 1 mana and then play stronger threats in the 4 drop spot
Is there anyway of making this deck cheaper for those of us who are on a restricted budet? I don't have the kind of money to spend on thoughtseize/mutavault: Can this deck be viably made without them?
Yes just -4 mutavault, -4 thoughtsieze +4 swamp, +4 Duress or something.
Is there anyway of making this deck cheaper for those of us who are on a restricted budet? I don't have the kind of money to spend on thoughtseize/mutavault: Can this deck be viably made without them?
Yes just -4 mutavault, -4 thoughtsieze +4 swamp, +4 Duress or something.
Mutavault and Thoughtseize are two of the best -- probably THE two best -- cards in Standard. Losing Vault significantly weakens Pack Rat and you lose a very hard-to-kill creature. Thoughtseize answers everything except Mutavault; change it to Duress and suddenly the opponent can easily land a Blood Baron or Aetherling and rip us apart. The cards are expensive because they're good, and your deck won't be NEARLY as good without them. I'd suggest you get together with some friends and share a card pool.
Also, this is the competitive section. I understand your dilemma, but technically this is not a conversation we should be having in this forum.
Also, what are the scrylands everyone is running? Although Mono Blue is very popular, I do not see it that often in my meta and I think it may have a decline post-BNG.
EDIT: quick report on a local 5-round GPT. Less people than I expected, but still - with a PTQ coming up soon I want all the practice I can get in this new environment.
R1: G/u Devotion (W 2-1)
Monogreen Devotion with a splash of blue for Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Cyclonic Rift and Rapid Hybridization. He out-gases me G1 with Courser of Kruphix protecting a Kiora, and I don't draw the right removal. I board in Doom Blade and LBZ - G2 and 3 I smash him - kill his fatties, pressure him with Demon, and so on.
R2: R/G Midrange/Monsters (L 0-2)
Wow. I got... steamrolled. Courser of Kruphix into Xenagod is PAINFUL - that's a 4/6 beast crashing in for damage every turn. Without Demon, that card is a nightmare. The only thing you can hit it with is Hero's Downfall, and that's one less Downfall you have for things like Domri Rade. You can't block profitably at all, and soon I get overwhelmed with trampling Coursers via Ghor-Clan. G2 is much closer because LBZ and Doom Blade keep them at bay - but Courser + Domri is just powerful, powerful filtering and you most likely will lose gas without Underworld Connections.
R3: Monoblack Devotion (W 2-1)
Took me a little time to adjust to Bile Blight here - tip: just be careful with your Rats. Still the same as always. Thoughtsize here, Thoughtseize there, drop Pack Rat, multiply, win. I take G1 on the back of that. G2 I get hit by five disruption spells and eventually die to Nightveil Specter stealing the stuff I needed. G3 went much faster - I'm ahead on the race with 3 Pack Rats and a Mutavault vs. 2, then drop Erebos and UC. Erebos and an army of Rats eventually let me swing for lethal the next turn, allowing me to drop Gary for the lethal life loss.
R4: Dega Control (W 2-1)
Off the bat I assumed this was R/W Devotion/Boros, because I saw the guy at an earlier table with Boros Reckoner, Temple of Triumph and Warleader's Helix. I keep a hand that's served me well in this matchup, and then T1 Thoughtseize. There's some black mana, Thoughtseize, Dreadbore and Blood Baron of Vizkopa. What the. I draw out his removal one by one, eventually landing a Demon. He draws another BBoV, but can't race because I play a 2nd Demon. G2, I'm on the receiving end of 3 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress, he lands Assemble the Legion. At least it went up to 9 counters before I died. G3, some timely LBZ + Thoughtseize/Duress action saw me take out Mizzium Mortars, Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Anger of the Gods. I win with 2 Rats and a Mutavault (that never swung, only activating itself) doing everything.
R5: Monoblack Aggro (L 0-2)
I was not prepared for this... at all. It's got everything I use, trading out Garys, UC and some removal/lands for Rakdos Cackler, Rakdos Shread-Freak and Herald of Torment. I get steamrolled G1, and G2 he manages to land a Nightveil Specter after using up all my removal, swings - and gets Desecration Demon off the top of my deck. Well, that's game.
--
Overall I'm happy with how the deck performed, save for the R/G Monsters matchup.
Courser of Kruphix does not die to Bile Blight, becomes a 4/6 beatstick thanks to Xenagod (nice Bloodrush/Blood target, and fat enough to survive most stuff), and filters the top of their library. Oh, it also gains life and gives +2 Devotion. That's insane value for a 3-drop for that kind of deck, and allows for some crazy stuff with Domri Rade. I playtested with another player using the same deck afterwards and found that if you can keep their board to just mana dorks and Xenagod, you're much likelier to win. Given this I think Underworld Connections is now more important in the matchup - with them able to filter and draw gas, you need to at least be able to keep up with that. UC is our only way to do that in this deck, because most of our removal spells are 1-for-1 (Bile Blight kills.... un-tributed Fanatic of Xenagos, and Elvish Mystic. That's nice.) In Round 2 I took out some UC and Thoughtseize for LBZ and Doom Blade. In the practice matches afterward I left UC in and instead took out Nightveil Specter, and found it to be much better because I can at least keep up).
That deck is legit, and is making me consider throwing in one more Doom Blade to help. Not sure what to take out though (1 Bile Blight? 1 Devour Flesh) - but if this deck catches on (and I think it will) it could give MBD some problems.
I often felt that I have problems becoming aggressive pre BNG as I have to rely on Pack Rat to become aggressive. Running Herald of Torment allows me to become aggressive in my deck without relying on Rat for the beatdown. I wanted to diversify my creatures to prevent my creatures from being hit badly by Bile Blight.
Herald of Torment has impressed me because it gives me a good blocker against aggressive decks because of its big body and evasion, running 6 copies of 2/3, 3/3 for its 3 mana slots seems quite good although I have to shave 1 copy of UC to prevent too much dmg to myself.
The bestow is another game breaker, in late game I can bestow Herald to Gray Merchant, making Gary bigger and making it fly. One aspect of Herald is that I can bestow it to Mutavault, swing it for 5 damage, then as Mutavault becomes a land, the Herald enters the battlefield as a creature, giving you a blocker against other cards like Chandra Phoenix etc.
The life loss can be a pain, especially with coupled with UC, netting you two life loss per turn, thats why I had Whip MB, to gain back loss life and to bring back creatures. With Gary and Whip, the life loss could prove to be managable.
Bile Blight is as usual very good, but one of the plays was to downsize creatures which prove useful at times, shrinking creatures so that our own creatures kill with ease.
I feel like herald of torment is certainly worth testing. I also agree that whip is deserving of at least a one of in the md. Whipping Gary's can be brutal
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Modern URSplinter TwinUR BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
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Duress should still be in the SB, and IMO as a 4-of. Raping control's hand is the best path to victory against them, you want as much 1-mana discard/peek spells as you can.
Lifebane Zombie should stay, at least as a 3-of. Green creatures will still be played, and I'm predicting more white creatures, so it's still a very relevant card.
I'm also for still keeping 4 copies of Devour Flesh in the 75, and with Bile Blight entering the MD common sense says you cut some Devour Flesh and move them to the side - 2 seems to be the common number whenever I ask other MBD players.
That's 9 slots taken, meaning 6 slots have to go to some combination of:
Drown in Sorrow
Dark Betrayal
Erebos, God of the Dead
Doom Blade -
Of the 4, I'm partial towards Doom Blade and Drown in Sorrow. Doom Blade will help against decks like R/G monsters and WW, especially since they get creatures that are out of Bile Blight range (Courser of Kruphix and Brimaz are good examples). I'm seeing Drown at 2-3 copies as well.
With the deck getting Bile Blight which is still strong in the mirror, is there still a need for Dark Betrayal? The most notable difference is that Betrayal kills Desecration Demon while one Bile Blight does not. If this happens then SB'ing for the mirror could be shaken up quite a bit - would you leave DD in knowing that you're less likely to see the 1-mana instant that kills it?
And then there's Erebos whom we play mainly for the lifegain shutdown.
--
Moving to another topic:Is it time to cut down on Pack Rat in the main? It's been something I've been asked lately, and I'm not so sure yet. Some people are saying that it's time to go back down to 2/3 with our new cards hurting it as well (Bile Blight). What do you guys think?
MD removal suite
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Devour Flesh
4 Bile Blight
SB 1
3 Duress
3 Dark Betrayal
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Doom Blade
2 Erebos
3 Lifebane Zombie
SB (Pre BNG)
4 Duress
4 Dark Betrayal
2 Erebos
2 Doom Blade
3 Lifebane Zombie
I do agree with your point that Duress should be an auto 4 of but to make room for Drown, I had to make the choice of cutting the 4th copy of Duress and Dark Betrayal. But by doing that, I'm sacrificing my edge over the mirror (4th Dark Betrayal has been key in most matchups). I'm not sure if Drown in Sorrow is good enough to cut both of the last copies (Shrivel was a thing and yet I didn't use it).
Also, would having only 2 Devour in MD be risky against opposing BBoVs? Well, I guess that's where Lifebane kicks in.
I feel the dark betrayals are not going to be nearly as necessary. The only thing our bile blight doesn't kill is demon (amd gray merchant but meh) but demon is always sided out in the mirror anyway so it will not be an issue. Siding in 2 bile blights on top of 2 already in the mb should be more than enough there.
I'm not building for the current meta, I've built the deck to where I think it will need to be.
My prediction for top decks in the new meta.
Mono Black Control/Devotion
Red Deck Wins (green or white splash)
Mono Blue Devotion
Green Red Monsters
Esper Control
Mono Black gets so many tools, and is already the top deck, so it is pretty obvious this deck is staying up top. That means we will be playing even more mirrors at high level tournaments, which means we will need to begin to skew our deck towards beating Mono Black. I think we can all agree that every good Mono Black deck will play some number of Drown in Sorrow, and Bile Blight in the mainboard. Those both get rid of Pack Rat and 2 or 1 other rats respectively. I definitely want to run a minimum of 2 copies of Drown in Sorrow, making my own Pack Rats quite a bit worse. I think saying that Pack Rat is "too good" in Mono Black is clearly not accurate anymore. Lifebane Zombie is going to have a lot of targets in with all the Big Green Red stompy decks pushing their way to the top tables. I'm sure 4 copies is wrong now, but at the beginning of a new format, I try to keep most cards in sets of 4 to minimize variance. Then once I get a reasonable number of games in, I start cutting back for other more valuable cards. This said, I do agree that 4 copies is wrong in the mainboard, and probably at least 2 of those should be Nightveil Specter. People are still going to be playing Pack Rats in the mainboard for the time being, and I'm just going to be next leveling them by not running my own Rats as targets for these two new powerful kill spells. This will make my deck more streamlined against them, and will give them more dead cards.
I see Mono Red with a splash of green being a top deck at least in the beginning. They now have plenty of good burn spells to throw at their opponent's face, and lots of good early creatures and tempo. Not a deck to ignore.
Mono Blue Devotion has been taking over some tournaments lately. This is where Drown in Sorrow will really shine. Dropping this on turn 3 or 4 will end the game very quickly. I want 4 against this deck.
Green Red Monsters runs Elvish Mystic, Scavenging Ooze, Boon Satyrs, and Xenagos can make a stream of 2/2s. I want a nice clean cut way to deal with all of that. Bile Blight helps a lot in the Xenagos situation, but Drown in Sorrow takes out multiple threats.
And finally we have Esper Control. Clearly Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight are pretty dead here.
As for some of the other cards in question.
4 Drown in Sorrow MD may be wrong, but 3 is probably the right number. I'll cut back when I'm sure I don't need that 4th copy. I very much don't think DiS is a mostly SB card, as I stated above.
Why do you think a singleton unrestricted kill spell for 4 mana isn't going to make the cut. With so many decks running large indestructible creatures, it is a good card to have available. Another Mortars is probably needed somewhere in the board. I don't know about adding another Erebos. It may become necessary if we see a significant rise of Esper Control. That said, I already have the Zombies mainboard along with a Mortars, that should be plenty to deal with BBoV, leaving Thoughtseize for other important spells.
And yes, I'll probably be adding Nightveil Specters to the mainboard over some number of Lifebane Zombies. But right now, I'm testing the Zombies out.
Nice to see another Arch in here.
I think you're right on the money for most of these topics.
Duress is extremely necessary against control as discard spells are our best weapons against them.
I also foresee more Green and White creatures seeing play, thus why I have skewed my mainboard to deal with those decks.
While I hate to admit it, Devour Flesh is still fairly necessary I think. I'm gonna try and see how I do without the full 4 copies like many in here, but I may end up adding 1-2 in the future.
Drown in Sorrow is my stand out card for our deck in this set. This card allows us to stop playing the midrange game, and to commit fully as a control deck, hence my lack of Pack Rat. I want creatures that are powerful bombs that immediately affect the board, if not that, then they need to create card advantage.
Doom Blade may also become a staple in the deck. Splashing red though, allows us to play Dreadbore, which is better in almost all situations save haste creatures, and not having the red mana available.
I think Erebos can be cut back on, until we see more Esper Control running a ton of Sphinx's Rev, and 3-4 BBoV.
And Finally Dark Betrayal. I think this card should be kept to a minimum in the deck. 0-2 is my number unless we see Mono Black completely take over the meta in the way Faeries, Jund, or Caw-Blade did.
I haven't participated on these forums in a while, and have just been playtesting with a smaller group since I moved out of SoCal. If I'm wrong on any of the points I have made here, please anyone, feel free to correct me. These are just my predictions going forward.
4x Mutavault
3x Temple of Deceit
2x Temple of Silence
17x Swamp
Creatures
4x Pack Rat
4x Nightveil Specter
4x Desecration Demon
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
3x Devour Flesh
2x Bile Blight
4x Underworld Connections
2x Erebos, God of the Dead
3x Lifebane Zombie
4x Duress
2x Bile Blight
2x Drown in Sorrow
2x Doom Blade
The most notable difference here is the lack of Dark Betrayal. We only typically side them in vs the mirror in g2, where we also 90% of the time side out Desecration Demon. Taking into account the fact that we side out the DD, Bile Blight kills everything except for 4+ rats and Gray Merchant. In my opinion, this frees up space in the sideboard by allowing us to take out the most narrow card we have and replacing it with things that will improve our MU's vs other decks that we normally struggle with. My theory could be completely wrong though. Opinions?
Also, the 1-of Erebos in the side is something I've been doing for a while now to great success. Gives me a slight bump in the mirror and UWx Control g1 if he shows up, and if not then no harm done in my opinion.
I was thinking of a removal suite of 4x drown in sorrow, 4x bile blight, 4x devour flesh, 4x hero's downfall in the main deck, or is that too much?
You'd be left with Gary, Nightveil, and Desecration to pick up the weight, maybe putting back in a whip or two.
That looks like way too much removal. UW Control is already not an easy matchup and with this setup you would lose game 1 pretty much every time.
And you will be crushed game 2 also if you dont board in way more threats
Sorry im going to be 'that guy' but this is the competitive side of the forum, budget discussion is prohibited
Absolutely agree, Yes Pack Rat in the mirror is now no longer an easy ride to victory, but theres stil any deck not playing wraths or Bile Blight, which, unless we see some new decks is probably still everyone. Thoughtsieze into Pack rat on the play is still going to get the job done outside of control or the mirror match 90% of the time
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
4 Mutavault
4 Temple of Deceit
18 Swamp
Creatures:16
4 Pack Rat
4 Nightveil specter
4 Desecration demon
4 Gray merchant of Asphodel
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's downfall
4 Bile Blight
2 Devour Flesh
4 Underworld connections
3 Duress
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Drown is sorrow
2 Doom Blade
2 Devour Flesh
Custom sig done by Me :3
Current Standard decks
Mono Blue Devotion (MUD)
Dimir Control
Mono Black Devotion (MBD)
Current EDH decks
Slivers combo
Vorosh the hunter
Sharrum, the Hedgemon
Start of MTG videos and stuff like that
http://www.youtube.com/user/mnmpackchannel
Custom sig done by Me :3
Current Standard decks
Mono Blue Devotion (MUD)
Dimir Control
Mono Black Devotion (MBD)
Current EDH decks
Slivers combo
Vorosh the hunter
Sharrum, the Hedgemon
Start of MTG videos and stuff like that
http://www.youtube.com/user/mnmpackchannel
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Whilst i liked the look of it i think Pain Seer looked awful but i think there is possibly a deck there, personally if we went that angle i'd want to play a couple of Erebos main board and load up with two and three drops to turn him on and then either Herald of Torment bestowed or Merchant at 5 to seal the deal?
What do we think? is regular Mono Black just better or could there actually be a deck here?
Having seen the matchup a lot I would say there is nothing you can really do about it. The matchup is 50/50 at best since they are almost unbeatable late-game with Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Sphinx's Revelation etc. but they also have a hard time dealing with early discard followed up by threats that close out the game fast.
That is the reason Owen Turtenwald sides in his Lifebane Zombies and sides out all removal even all of his Hero's Downfalls since you have to be proactive against them. Sitting back doing nothing leads to a game loss pretty much every time.
Underworld Connections helps a lot in drawing more threats before they can take over.
But you have to accept that they run the more powerful cards in the end and that Sphinx's Revelation will eventually trump everything you could be doing. I mean Jon Stern lost against Alexander Hayne 0-2 in the semi-finals at GP Vancouver even though he had all four Underworld Connections and drawed like 15+ cards with them in one game. It happens. That is the nature of the matchup I would say.
TL;DR Be as proactive as you against them. Side in all threats and discard that you have.
Sadly, no. Vs control its not likely that our devotion is going to be high enough for Disciple of Phenax to be effective. In addition, it gives the opponent the choice of which cards to show us. Say you play her when d=3 but they have6 cards in hand. Theyre going to show you their weakest cards and gold on to their sphinx rev's and win cons. With 4x thoughtseize and 4x duress, you can pick out indiviual cards from their whole hand for just 1 mana and then play stronger threats in the 4 drop spot
Yes just -4 mutavault, -4 thoughtsieze +4 swamp, +4 Duress or something.
Modern
Mutavault and Thoughtseize are two of the best -- probably THE two best -- cards in Standard. Losing Vault significantly weakens Pack Rat and you lose a very hard-to-kill creature. Thoughtseize answers everything except Mutavault; change it to Duress and suddenly the opponent can easily land a Blood Baron or Aetherling and rip us apart. The cards are expensive because they're good, and your deck won't be NEARLY as good without them. I'd suggest you get together with some friends and share a card pool.
Also, this is the competitive section. I understand your dilemma, but technically this is not a conversation we should be having in this forum.
4 Pack Rat
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
SORCERIES:
4 Thoughtseize
INSTANTS:
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Devour Flesh
2 Pharika's Cure
4 Underworld Connections
LANDS:
18 Swamp
4 Temple of Deciet
4 Mutavault
4 Duress
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Pharika's Cure
Now, post-BNG the changes I am considering is:
MB:
+4 Bile Blight
- 2 Pharika's Cure
- 2 Devour Flesh
SB:
+2 Drown in Sorrow
-2 Pharika's Cure
Although, I kind of want to squeeze 1-2 Doom Blade in the sideboard. I am considering dropping 1 Erebos, God of the Dead and 1 Lifebane Zombie. I do not want to get rid of any Dark Betrayal because of how heavy Mono Black is in my meta.
Also, what are the scrylands everyone is running? Although Mono Blue is very popular, I do not see it that often in my meta and I think it may have a decline post-BNG.
Here's the deck I used:
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Mutavault
4 Pack Rat
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Bile Blight
3 Devour Flesh
4 Underworld Connections
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Dark Betrayal
4 Duress
1 Bile Blight
2 Doom Blade
2 Drown in Sorrow
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
R1: G/u Devotion (W 2-1)
Monogreen Devotion with a splash of blue for Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Cyclonic Rift and Rapid Hybridization. He out-gases me G1 with Courser of Kruphix protecting a Kiora, and I don't draw the right removal. I board in Doom Blade and LBZ - G2 and 3 I smash him - kill his fatties, pressure him with Demon, and so on.
R2: R/G Midrange/Monsters (L 0-2)
Wow. I got... steamrolled. Courser of Kruphix into Xenagod is PAINFUL - that's a 4/6 beast crashing in for damage every turn. Without Demon, that card is a nightmare. The only thing you can hit it with is Hero's Downfall, and that's one less Downfall you have for things like Domri Rade. You can't block profitably at all, and soon I get overwhelmed with trampling Coursers via Ghor-Clan. G2 is much closer because LBZ and Doom Blade keep them at bay - but Courser + Domri is just powerful, powerful filtering and you most likely will lose gas without Underworld Connections.
R3: Monoblack Devotion (W 2-1)
Took me a little time to adjust to Bile Blight here - tip: just be careful with your Rats. Still the same as always. Thoughtsize here, Thoughtseize there, drop Pack Rat, multiply, win. I take G1 on the back of that. G2 I get hit by five disruption spells and eventually die to Nightveil Specter stealing the stuff I needed. G3 went much faster - I'm ahead on the race with 3 Pack Rats and a Mutavault vs. 2, then drop Erebos and UC. Erebos and an army of Rats eventually let me swing for lethal the next turn, allowing me to drop Gary for the lethal life loss.
R4: Dega Control (W 2-1)
Off the bat I assumed this was R/W Devotion/Boros, because I saw the guy at an earlier table with Boros Reckoner, Temple of Triumph and Warleader's Helix. I keep a hand that's served me well in this matchup, and then T1 Thoughtseize. There's some black mana, Thoughtseize, Dreadbore and Blood Baron of Vizkopa. What the. I draw out his removal one by one, eventually landing a Demon. He draws another BBoV, but can't race because I play a 2nd Demon. G2, I'm on the receiving end of 3 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress, he lands Assemble the Legion. At least it went up to 9 counters before I died. G3, some timely LBZ + Thoughtseize/Duress action saw me take out Mizzium Mortars, Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Anger of the Gods. I win with 2 Rats and a Mutavault (that never swung, only activating itself) doing everything.
R5: Monoblack Aggro (L 0-2)
I was not prepared for this... at all. It's got everything I use, trading out Garys, UC and some removal/lands for Rakdos Cackler, Rakdos Shread-Freak and Herald of Torment. I get steamrolled G1, and G2 he manages to land a Nightveil Specter after using up all my removal, swings - and gets Desecration Demon off the top of my deck. Well, that's game.
--
Overall I'm happy with how the deck performed, save for the R/G Monsters matchup.
Courser of Kruphix does not die to Bile Blight, becomes a 4/6 beatstick thanks to Xenagod (nice Bloodrush/Blood target, and fat enough to survive most stuff), and filters the top of their library. Oh, it also gains life and gives +2 Devotion. That's insane value for a 3-drop for that kind of deck, and allows for some crazy stuff with Domri Rade. I playtested with another player using the same deck afterwards and found that if you can keep their board to just mana dorks and Xenagod, you're much likelier to win. Given this I think Underworld Connections is now more important in the matchup - with them able to filter and draw gas, you need to at least be able to keep up with that. UC is our only way to do that in this deck, because most of our removal spells are 1-for-1 (Bile Blight kills.... un-tributed Fanatic of Xenagos, and Elvish Mystic. That's nice.) In Round 2 I took out some UC and Thoughtseize for LBZ and Doom Blade. In the practice matches afterward I left UC in and instead took out Nightveil Specter, and found it to be much better because I can at least keep up).
That deck is legit, and is making me consider throwing in one more Doom Blade to help. Not sure what to take out though (1 Bile Blight? 1 Devour Flesh) - but if this deck catches on (and I think it will) it could give MBD some problems.
17 Swamp
4 Mutavault
4 Temple of Deceit
Creatures
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Nightveil Specter
3 Herald of Torment
4 Desecration Demon
4 Pack Rat
4 Thoughtseize
2 Devour Flesh
1 Doom Blade
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Underworld Connections
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Dark Betrayal
1 Underworld Connections
2 Doom Blade
3 Duress
2 Drown in Sorrow
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
I often felt that I have problems becoming aggressive pre BNG as I have to rely on Pack Rat to become aggressive. Running Herald of Torment allows me to become aggressive in my deck without relying on Rat for the beatdown. I wanted to diversify my creatures to prevent my creatures from being hit badly by Bile Blight.
Herald of Torment has impressed me because it gives me a good blocker against aggressive decks because of its big body and evasion, running 6 copies of 2/3, 3/3 for its 3 mana slots seems quite good although I have to shave 1 copy of UC to prevent too much dmg to myself.
The bestow is another game breaker, in late game I can bestow Herald to Gray Merchant, making Gary bigger and making it fly. One aspect of Herald is that I can bestow it to Mutavault, swing it for 5 damage, then as Mutavault becomes a land, the Herald enters the battlefield as a creature, giving you a blocker against other cards like Chandra Phoenix etc.
The life loss can be a pain, especially with coupled with UC, netting you two life loss per turn, thats why I had Whip MB, to gain back loss life and to bring back creatures. With Gary and Whip, the life loss could prove to be managable.
Bile Blight is as usual very good, but one of the plays was to downsize creatures which prove useful at times, shrinking creatures so that our own creatures kill with ease.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW