Aetherling wasnt really cutting it for me... By turn 7 I would already be winning in the matchups that he really matters, and playing proactive cards would often led me to blowouts. He is definitely a strong card, and will probably see play, I just dont think this is the right shell.
If you are throwing AEtherling onto the field by turn 7, you are doing it wrong.
So after playing some more games vs. random decks I'm getting the feeling that Aetherling is basically a win-more card game 1 vs. a lot of decks. Is there a general consensus on the creature base yet? Are we best running full suit of Snapcasters only, or a mix of Snapcasters and Augurs. I think the we really don't need Restoration Angel anymore, has anyone tested and found out it's needed?
I have a PTQ coming up and the English meta is very Junk Reanimator and Aristocrat heavy. I am considering a main deck Curse of Death's Hold (or the Profit//Loss which I can hit with an Augur) along with the Crypt Incursion singleton.
AEtherling out of the side is where you will get tons of value from him. When your opponent gets Drownyarded or Jace'd to death game 1, they will bring in Pithing Needles and Psychic Spiral to stop you. Then you attack them from a completely different angle and just swap your 1x Jace MA for your 1x AEtherling. It's a great win condition and fits this shell perfectly because it still provides ultimate inevitability over other decks. It's literally an unstoppable creature as long as you don't try to rush it out. It was just a really great safety net this weekend and people never saw it coming.
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Current standard decks:
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
This is pretty much the direction I was heading, putting Jace back into the main deck, and having 1-2 Aetherling in the sideboard.
When are you casting Jace? I can see the value of him vs a creature light deck but that is not that common anymore. I would probably go the other way because if you show them Aetherling that Pithing needle will have his name on it.
I am on the fence about Augur, I would like to get them in, but I don't see 4 spots for them, does anyone else? My deck is on the page.
Heck I can barely find room to bring in sideboard cards.
When are you casting Jace? I can see the value of him vs a creature light deck but that is not that common anymore. I would probably go the other way because if you show them Aetherling that Pithing needle will have his name on it.
I am on the fence about Augur, I would like to get them in, but I don't see 4 spots for them, does anyone else? My deck is on the page.
Heck I can barely find room to bring in sideboard cards.
You just kind of seem to have 1 too many of a lot of cards. Like you should only be running 1x AEtherling due to the fact that it only takes 1 to win the game. There are other things you just don't need, like 3x Far/Away should be just a 1x or 2x, and Renounce the guilds shouldn't be main boarded at all IMO. I'm also curious as to why you have 27 lands and no 4th Drownyard...is your mana really that inconsistent?
EDIT: As for Jace, the reason you main board him over AEtherling is because you want to represent that your deck is 100% dedicated to mill so you can bait them into bringing in Elixir of Immortality or Psychic Spiral. It's not just about the Pithing Needles. Also, I always drop Jace after I have successfully stabilized and gained hefty card advantage over my opponent, although he can sometimes be a card draw engine.
I've been using 2 Angel of Serenity in the sideboard for ages, but I've noticed people only really tried it when Ben Stark did it, and then stopped doing it.
Why did you stop doing it? Was it not good enough? I've found they came in for so many games (well, I have a very midrange meta...) and they just got straight to business.
But that was then. What about now?
I find it's a pretty amazing top deck for an opposing Sire of Insanity. Instantly turns the board around. It's still pretty decent in it's area, too.
You just kind of seem to have 1 too many of a lot of cards. Like you should only be running 1x AEtherling due to the fact that it only takes 1 to win the game. There are other things you just don't need, like 3x Far/Away should be just a 1x or 2x, and Renounce the guilds shouldn't be main boarded at all IMO. I'm also curious as to why you have 27 lands and no 4th Drownyard...is your mana really that inconsistent?
EDIT: As for Jace, the reason you main board him over AEtherling is because you want to represent that your deck is 100% dedicated to mill so you can bait them into bringing in Elixir of Immortality or Psychic Spiral. It's not just about the Pithing Needles. Also, I always drop Jace after I have successfully stabilized and gained hefty card advantage over my opponent, although he can sometimes be a card draw engine.
I agree with most of this. Aetherling is best as a sideboard card in this deck IMO. He comes down once we've completely stabilized, and then just wins in 3-4 turns. Similar to Jace, except that Jace is more flexible and cheaper, which means he gets the slot mainboard for now.
Renounce the Guilds can easily be mainboarded as a 1-of right now. If your meta is full of Domri Rade, Sorin, Bant Hexproof, and/or Jund, it can be a vital card to the deck. If you are running into a ton of Hyper aggro, Junk Rites, or slow control decks that don't run gold cards, then I can see leaving it in the side.
As for Drownyard, 4 copies is not worth the damage it does to the mana base. We are the only "real" draw-go control deck in the format, and our deck is hardly seeing 4% of the overall meta. Because of this, we don't really need to worry about the mirror match in tournaments larger than FNM. No mirror means cut down on Drownyards. We really only need to see 2, or 1+ a Jace to win 95% of the time, so cutting 1 or even 2 Drownyards is okay right now. I'd much rather have access to a turn 4 Supreme Verdict than risk drawing into a 2nd Drownyard within my first 4 lands.
Hmm, well, I know a lot of people hate Soorani's list, but I've gone 3-0-1 and 4-0 in two recent local tournaments with the deck. In those tournaments I have beaten solid builds of R/G aggro, Jund midrange, Reanimator, UWR control, and Bant Flash Control. My draw was to a very interesting pseudo Junk reanimator deck. Maybe it isn't as good and it's just luck, but I've found Lingering Souls to still be effective and Warped Physique is always fun in response to a Ghor-Clan Rampager. The Planeswalkers are nice to have around when you are packing so many sweepers. The more sweepers you add to the deck, the more I like the Planeswalkers.
That being said, I do always feel like I'm on the edge of my seat holding on for dear life when I'm playing this deck, so I'm going to set the deck aside for a bit to see how the meta develops.
How did your matchup against Bant Flash play out? Did tapping out for Planeswalkers ever get punished by the opponent flashing in Wurms?
So after playing some more games vs. random decks I'm getting the feeling that Aetherling is basically a win-more card game 1 vs. a lot of decks. Is there a general consensus on the creature base yet? Are we best running full suit of Snapcasters only, or a mix of Snapcasters and Augurs. I think the we really don't need Restoration Angel anymore, has anyone tested and found out it's needed?
I have a PTQ coming up and the English meta is very Junk Reanimator and Aristocrat heavy. I am considering a main deck Curse of Death's Hold (or the Profit//Loss which I can hit with an Augur) along with the Crypt Incursion singleton.
I'd say that if you're running a bunch of Snapcaster and Augur then a pair of Angels would be pretty good. I've dropped Angels because I have dropped Augurs, and my only value creature now is Snapcaster as a 3-of.
I don't think Curse of Death's Hold is where you want to be unless you are playing Soorani's style of deck. And even then, it shouldn't be mainboard. Aggro is tapering off a bit right now, the top 5 decks at the moment are Junk, Jund, Bant Hexproof, Bant Flash, and finally Naya Blitz. None of which Curse is very good against until you have already stabilized the game.
This is pretty much the direction I was heading, putting Jace back into the main deck, and having 1-2 Aetherling in the sideboard.
It is nice to see others coming to this same conclusion. I'm doing the same. Jace is a better threat in game 1 against the field, and game 2 when they side out all their creature kill cards (because I only have Snapcasters main), I bring in Aetherling and punish them. I almost always leave Jace in though unless I'm playing against Hyper aggro.
Okay, so this is the first try I have had posting in standard. I like Esper Control, but the meta is NOT friendly right now.
problems I have:
Beginning to hate Syncopate, the only use I have for it so far is trying to make someone spend extra on a Farseek so they can't regen a troll, it didn't work. Thinking it needs to be another Dissipate.
Blood Baron- I know sweepers work fine, but a fused far/away doesn't, think I need an all blue bounce in there.
Is Illness worth it? I know that Curse is staying gone with the prevalence of Witchbane Orbs, but them tokens can be a pain.
Syncopate is better than that. If you are planning to use it on a Farseek, do it when you are on the play, not on the draw. Farseek is also quite good against the Aggro decks on our turn 2. Stopping the BTE into Lightning Mauler is nuts against those decks. I wouldn't cut all of the copies just yet. Maybe in a few weeks the format will have slowed down enough that it can be replaced by another Dissipate.
Blood Baron is pretty much a non-threat. Take the damage for a turn or two, Revelate, then wrath. Pretty simple. If my opponent is playing Blood Barons against me, then I am more than happy. Compare him to creatures like Thragtusk, Voice of Resurgence, Obzedat, Strangleroot Geist, or Geralf's Messenger. Now those are problem creatures.
Illness in the Ranks is a card that has crossed my mind recently due to the large influx of Token decks in my meta. But the problem is that it is so narrow that it is a sideboard card as a 2-of at most. I actually think the card may be best in a Zombie aggro deck post board against Lingering Souls decks.
You are right, the metagame is not friendly right now. It is completely random, with a lot of decks trying to push the early to midgame aggression. So thanks to Cipher, and some time away from thinking about the deck, I'm going to try one more time this Friday. If I fail, then I'll switch it up for a week or two until the people gunning for me subside a bit.
I was a bit tilted from my terrible showing last week, and that clouded my judgement some. I've decided to go with a list more similar to the first week DGM was legal, when I won FNM.
Sadly, I've dropped Crypt Incursion to the sideboard. I love the card, and it definitely gains a ton of life most of the time when I draw it, but I have a lot of token decks in my meta right now. It is just a dead card too often for me at the moment. I'm sure in a couple weeks when those token deck drop off again, Crypt Incursion will be good again. If I were to run the deck in a larger tournament, the card would swap places with Renounce the Guilds or Merciless Eviction. Probably the Eviction.
I do want the Renounce the Guilds in the mainboard right now with the heavy amount of Domri Rade decks showing up to my store. In conjunction with 2 Detention Spheres and a Merciless Eviction, I should be good against the most played planeswalkers now.
Aetherling has been moved back to the sideboard, and is now only a 1-of just for those Control matchups. Against Bant Flash, UWR Flash, and Esper decks, he is king. Against everything else, I have usually already won by the time I can cast him and protect him twice.
I've decided to up the number of sweepers a ton. 7 main with 2 more side should be enough. Terminus is really good right now because it can be cast for 1 mana (obv), gets rid of Voice of Resurgence properly, and can be sometimes cast as an instant after Think Twice or Sphinx's Rev, when you run into Sire of Insanity decks.
Sire of Insanity is a whole other topic. If you can see, I have no less than 5 ways to answer him after he has resolved before I take into account Snapcasters. Against Jund I'm bringing in the 2 other Renounce the Guilds and cutting 1-2 Warped Physique because RtG hits almost everything in their lists now. Huntmaster, Sire, and Olivia are all good targets. I don't cut all the copies since I would like to have another way to take out Thragtusk.
Testing Augur, not loving it much. Keeping for now, but don't have high hopes.
Changed syncopate to Dissapate MD will keep it for counter war sb but I like the hard counter
really liking Oblivion Ring (When I don't Augur it to the bottom) can't see why I would play detention spheres with RtG, and since no one is playing multiple of anything but creatures, the ring does the job.
Speaking of RTG, like it a lot, solves so many problems.
Hi Guys need an advice, i not play since the last game day, my meta is full on aggro decks, i'm not sure about any card to be put on my side.
i really like 1 Crypt Incursion on the main, probaly the only card i'm not sure is Restoration Angel, what do you think?
You got the shell basically right I think, I could talk about Terminus or Merciless Eviction over Planar Cleansing, what with all the regen and indestructability in the top decks now. Regardless the SB should have some more sweepers for agro.
You are light on hard counters, you need that in the side certainly, the other 2 Dissapates, a few more. Having the option to jump to 5-6 counters is a good thing.
Instant speed answers to Sire of Insanity should be considered, upwards of 5-6, he is just devastaing, and an Aetherling. You should definitely have the ability to go to 2-3 Crypt Incursion, they are just amazing and will lock out a RDW that doesn't just blow you out first.
That leaves a few slots left, test different things, more Planeswalkers, more counters, Ring/Sphere, Witchbane Orb, Illness in the Ranks, Ghost Quarter.
What did I miss? What are your suggestions to play in such a meta?
Sounds like a lot of target player, witchbane orb seems like a good answer.
By the way, I just realized it sounds like I think I know what I am doing, nothing could be further from the truth. I suck at sideboarding and completely lack confidence or a coherent plan, so please someone that knows something help these people
Against Jund I'm bringing in the 2 other Renounce the Guilds and cutting 1-2 Warped Physique because RtG hits almost everything in their lists now. Huntmaster, Sire, and Olivia are all good targets.
If you're this heavy on Renounce the Guilds, why not swap Detention Sphere for Oblivion Ring? 3x Renounce and 2x Detention Sphere sounds like you're asking for it. I think it's safe to say that the multi-exile effect of Sphere won't ever come up in Jund matches, and the only other deck that runs Spheres to exile your O-ring is Esper.
If you're this heavy on Renounce the Guilds, why not swap Detention Sphere for Oblivion Ring? 3x Renounce and 2x Detention Sphere sounds like you're asking for it. I think it's safe to say that the multi-exile effect of Sphere won't ever come up in Jund matches, and the only other deck that runs Spheres to exile your O-ring is Esper.
In most matchups where I bring in RtG, I side out Detention Sphere, for instance, Bant Hexproof. Against Jund, I cut 1 or both Detention Spheres, since it is pretty bad against Abrupt Decay and Acidic Slime. That is the matchup I miss Planar Cleansing the most. Perhaps I should put 1 in my sideboard over a Terminus. I'm not entirely sure.
Trust me, I only made the mistake once of leaving in Detention Spheres while I brought in RtG. Having just 1 RtG mainboard with the Spheres is easy enough to play around, since most game 1's at my store I just use DSphere for taking out tokens of some sort, so sacrificing it to take out a Sorin or whatever is no big deal.
I would run Orings if I didn't have quite so much of a Token presence at my store right now. As soon as it dies down, I'll make the appropriate changes to my list.
I would run Orings if I didn't have quite so much of a Token presence at my store right now. As soon as it dies down, I'll make the appropriate changes to my list.
See that was why I thought I needed spheres too, but I haven't really run into guys that will throw out a whole bunch of the same one like that. Nobody really running Sorin.
This is where I'm at for tonights FNM. We have a PTQ coming up soon too and hope to be playing Esper at that event (a couple of weeks away). So I'm keen to get this razor sharp.
It feels like we are spoiled for choice in Esper sideboards. I have so many cards I'd love to put in but can't. Duress, Appetite for Brains, Witchbane Orb, Psychic Spiral, Feeling of Dread, Jace MA, Angel of Serenity, several variations of point removal, several variations of GY hate... etc. Frankly I'm not entirely convinced that those cards deserve to be benched, and might need a run in the sideboard.
Quote from Yoh »
Hi Guys need an advice, i not play since the last game day, my meta is full on aggro decks, i'm not sure about any card to be put on my side.
i really like 1 Crypt Incursion on the main, probaly the only card i'm not sure is Restoration Angel, what do you think?
Restoration Angel is probably fine for an aggro meta. Just remember to block with an Augur then bounce it (receiving no damage) and scrying for a card. There will come a point in the game after you have Supreme Verdict'd the board when they will play a 3/3 and try to swing at you, but you can flash block with Angel profitably. At that point you are just cleaning up the game.
For your sideboard, and for an expected aggro matchup, consider including 2 Tragic Slip, 1-2 Terminus, and 1-2 other removal (like Devour Flesh). This is just a guideline - do whatever is right.
Tragic Slip hits so much without morbid. It hits a hell of a lot more when you chump with an Augur! It's efficient and can point remove a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Lotleth Troll, Blood Artist, Falkenrath Aristocrat, any mana dork, etc. The list is huge.
Terminus is just to sweep the board as often as you can, and cheap 2 mana point removal is to keep them off your back while you stabilise.
Basically: take a few destroy spells (1 and 2 cc) and some more sweepers
I feel that 3 snapcasters is the magic number on this type of list, have you considered swap 1 snapcaster for 1 Obzedat, Ghost Council? this will stabilize you after a t4 removal and gives you access to an alternate win condition
I feel that 3 snapcasters is the magic number on this type of list, have you considered swap 1 snapcaster for 1 Obzedat, Ghost Council? this will stabilize you after a t4 removal and gives you access to an alternate win condition
My 4 Snapcaster Mage usually raises a few eyebrows. I find it really hard to cut the Snapcasters because I am so happy to see when I draw into them. I realise the popular number is anywhere between 2-3 (right now), but as a personal preference I have upped it from 3 to 4.
What you say is not without it's merits. Obzedat is pretty darn good. I was using him as an alternate win con main board for the duration of Gatecrash. Quite often he would just run away with a game. These days, though, I am attempting to be all-in on the drown yard game 1, and then game 2 I'd usually bring in AEtherling as an alternate win condition.
Round 1: B/R Vampires - Win (2-0)
Round 2: R/G Aggro - Win (2-0, Crypt Incursion'd 3 times in game 3 :))
Round 3: RDW - Loss (0-2, kept some terrible hands that I should have mulled, and played terribly)
Round 4: WW - Win (1-0, drew the last game because was against a friend with some good banter so I lost track of round timer :))
I was weary about dropping Planar Cleansing for Spheres/Terminus, but it was a good choice. Loving main deck Crypt Incursion.
My sideboard is still a mess that I throw together before each FNM. Hoping to have a solid plan before the PTQ in 2 weeks.
I think you're missing 2 cards in the mainboard.
I see only 31 non-lands and 27 lands. I'm thinking you left out 2x Terminus because of your comment.
You also only have 14 cards in your sideboard. So I'm guessing 1 more Terminus in the side?
What I like to do when posting a decklist, for not only my own clarity but for others, is to divide cards into a few sections and give the counts at the top of each section. For instance, my decklist for FNM in an hour or so.
This way everything is organized, and I can count each section and verify that it all adds up to 60 and 15 respectively. Obviously you don't have to do this, but I find it much easier to determine what specific choices you made in your deck, and makes it so I can follow your findings of the matches better. Overall, this leads to better criticisms of the decklist and choices you have made, helping to improve your particular list. Anyways, just a suggestion.
Good job on the performance overall. What were the bad hands that you kept vs. RDW?
This is what I piloted tonight at FNM, poorly I may add. I ended up 2-2, losing to a mirror match and a Jund deck.
2 misplays ended up doing me in.
I won game 1 against jund. Game 2 I played a land I didn't need to and left myself with 4 cards in hand (Snapcaster among them, with Warped Physique in graveyard) when he dropped Sire of Insanity. Not being able to kill the sire that turn effectively ended the game. Game 3 involved a turn 4 and turn 5 Slaughter Games taking my Dissipates and Supreme Verdicts. Once he started puking his hand of critters on the table, I couldn't get stabilized.
Against the mirror, I tapped like a moron and neglected to leave myself double white for Supreme Verdict, which might have gotten me stable.
Of course the friend that was going to State's with me got stuck with work, so I guess I don't need to worry about that tomorrow, leaving me more time to fix my own poor play.
I top 8'd the Virginia state championships with an augurless-restoless build with 4 terminus. I would post my list now but I'm worn out. However terminus was the nuts all night getting me out of spots no other card could have.
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Top 8'd spring states 2013 with esper control
Top 8'd modern states with tarmo-twin
Onto discussion, most people will disagree with 26 lands but since I've been shuffling more and better, it hasn't been a problem at all since I run 4 think twice. Terminus was the best card all night(except against control but that's obvious). Against midrange it let me blow up their field and leave up counter mana and against Aggro it just saves you where no other card could. Jace, architect of thought was also the nuts as expected in a field full of Aggro and control with very little reanimator. Sever was there just for sure of insanity, and the oblivion rings were there because I run a single renounce the guilds.
I think I want a single augur or two in the sideboard or mainboard, because late game when I need another sphinx to seal the game, I just couldn't draw it sometimes. Reap intellect was bad, unless I was on the play which meant I was favored anyway against midrange decks. My only loss was a b/w zombies in the Swiss and then again in the finals. It went to game three both times but he was on the play so I was highly disadvantaged. If I had one more anti-aggressive card instead of reap in my side I could have pulled it out. I'm thinking of either crypt incursion, augur of bolas, azorius charm, riot control, divine deflection, curse of death's hold.
Edit: also I believe that 4 counterspells was 1 to many and I think syncopate is better in this Aggro filled meta so I'll cut a dissipate, and probably put either augur or the 4th azorius charm in. More testing will be required. Also for those saying augur is bad, don't play him until you need something against midrange or control. Keep him in hand as long as you can because the later the game gets the better he gets finding you exactly what you need, be that a sweeper or a sphinx's.
No offense, Nathan/Warp, but after seeing your list, I can no longer disagree that you got insanely lucky against your opponents throughout the tournament.
In round 1, you drew all 4 Drownyards both games against the mirror, your 1 of Purify, 1 of Spiral, and so forth. Your opponent played flawlessly, but you drew the exact outs.
Against zombies, you miracled a Terminus twice with lethal on board with nothing relevant in hand. You also drew more 1 ofs (dead weight) in the perfect position.
A few other people were talking about how you had some ridiculous rips in their matches against you.
Congrats on your finish, but that list is not something I would recommend to anyone.
No offense, Nathan/Warp, but after seeing your list, I can no longer disagree that you got insanely lucky against your opponents throughout the tournament.
In round 1, you drew all 4 Drownyards both games against the mirror, your 1 of Purify, 1 of Spiral, and so forth. Your opponent played flawlessly, but you drew the exact outs.
Against zombies, you miracled a Terminus twice with lethal on board with nothing relevant in hand. You also drew more 1 ofs (dead weight) in the perfect position.
A few other people were talking about how you had some ridiculous rips in their matches against you.
Congrats on your finish, but that list is not something I would recommend to anyone.
That's how the list works; the point of the deck is to maximize getting terminus miracled to get out of situations. We also have the normal plan of just sphinx's over and over again. I do agree I need an augur or two back in the list 8 was just testing out augur less list after getting annoyed with them. I haven't had that much time to test so the singletons were to figure out what works, and honestly it worked quite well.
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Yeah, that's how the list works. But, it doesn't always work. Try drawing 20+ extra cards and not finding one of six hate cards two games in a row. Things fell into place for you I suppose.
Its just a little outrageous that I cast appetite to take a Jace, MA from you and you had your single purify to stop me from grabbing your spiral with snapcaster, and never drew one of my 7 post-board counterspells when you went to resolve spiral. Not to mention, you were dead to Aetherling both games and had all 4 drownyards to seal the deal (even g2 when your removal was boarded out)
Yeah, that's how the list works. But, it doesn't always work. Try drawing 20+ extra cards and not finding one of six hate cards two games in a row. Things fell into place for you I suppose.
Its just a little outrageous that I cast appetite to take a Jace, MA from you and you had your single purify to stop me from grabbing your spiral with snapcaster, and never drew one of my 7 post-board counterspells when you went to resolve spiral. Not to mention, you were dead to Aetherling both games and had all 4 drownyards to seal the deal (even g2 when your removal was boarded out)
Game 1 my second jace, architect of thought stuck for a long time, so he filtered away a bunch of cards. Secondly, you're correct about being dead to aetherling but sometimes you just have he drownyards, also it was that late in the game where we had drawn a bunch of extra lands and I had enough to pay for 4 drownyards anyway. Luck does factor in the mirror a lot, but against other aggressive decks, my deck is very resilient.
Honestly putting that out there--whoever draws the most drownyards wins the mirror most of the time. It's pretty much luck. Aetherling wins as well as jace but most of the time it comes down to drownyards.
And at the end of the second match I had maybe ~7 cards left in library before I psychic spiraled so having all 4 drownyards at that time wasn't that ridiculous honestly.
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If you are throwing AEtherling onto the field by turn 7, you are doing it wrong.
AEtherling out of the side is where you will get tons of value from him. When your opponent gets Drownyarded or Jace'd to death game 1, they will bring in Pithing Needles and Psychic Spiral to stop you. Then you attack them from a completely different angle and just swap your 1x Jace MA for your 1x AEtherling. It's a great win condition and fits this shell perfectly because it still provides ultimate inevitability over other decks. It's literally an unstoppable creature as long as you don't try to rush it out. It was just a really great safety net this weekend and people never saw it coming.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
When are you casting Jace? I can see the value of him vs a creature light deck but that is not that common anymore. I would probably go the other way because if you show them Aetherling that Pithing needle will have his name on it.
I am on the fence about Augur, I would like to get them in, but I don't see 4 spots for them, does anyone else? My deck is on the page.
Heck I can barely find room to bring in sideboard cards.
You just kind of seem to have 1 too many of a lot of cards. Like you should only be running 1x AEtherling due to the fact that it only takes 1 to win the game. There are other things you just don't need, like 3x Far/Away should be just a 1x or 2x, and Renounce the guilds shouldn't be main boarded at all IMO. I'm also curious as to why you have 27 lands and no 4th Drownyard...is your mana really that inconsistent?
EDIT: As for Jace, the reason you main board him over AEtherling is because you want to represent that your deck is 100% dedicated to mill so you can bait them into bringing in Elixir of Immortality or Psychic Spiral. It's not just about the Pithing Needles. Also, I always drop Jace after I have successfully stabilized and gained hefty card advantage over my opponent, although he can sometimes be a card draw engine.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
Why did you stop doing it? Was it not good enough? I've found they came in for so many games (well, I have a very midrange meta...) and they just got straight to business.
But that was then. What about now?
I find it's a pretty amazing top deck for an opposing Sire of Insanity. Instantly turns the board around. It's still pretty decent in it's area, too.
I agree with most of this. Aetherling is best as a sideboard card in this deck IMO. He comes down once we've completely stabilized, and then just wins in 3-4 turns. Similar to Jace, except that Jace is more flexible and cheaper, which means he gets the slot mainboard for now.
Renounce the Guilds can easily be mainboarded as a 1-of right now. If your meta is full of Domri Rade, Sorin, Bant Hexproof, and/or Jund, it can be a vital card to the deck. If you are running into a ton of Hyper aggro, Junk Rites, or slow control decks that don't run gold cards, then I can see leaving it in the side.
As for Drownyard, 4 copies is not worth the damage it does to the mana base. We are the only "real" draw-go control deck in the format, and our deck is hardly seeing 4% of the overall meta. Because of this, we don't really need to worry about the mirror match in tournaments larger than FNM. No mirror means cut down on Drownyards. We really only need to see 2, or 1+ a Jace to win 95% of the time, so cutting 1 or even 2 Drownyards is okay right now. I'd much rather have access to a turn 4 Supreme Verdict than risk drawing into a 2nd Drownyard within my first 4 lands.
How did your matchup against Bant Flash play out? Did tapping out for Planeswalkers ever get punished by the opponent flashing in Wurms?
I'd say that if you're running a bunch of Snapcaster and Augur then a pair of Angels would be pretty good. I've dropped Angels because I have dropped Augurs, and my only value creature now is Snapcaster as a 3-of.
I don't think Curse of Death's Hold is where you want to be unless you are playing Soorani's style of deck. And even then, it shouldn't be mainboard. Aggro is tapering off a bit right now, the top 5 decks at the moment are Junk, Jund, Bant Hexproof, Bant Flash, and finally Naya Blitz. None of which Curse is very good against until you have already stabilized the game.
It is nice to see others coming to this same conclusion. I'm doing the same. Jace is a better threat in game 1 against the field, and game 2 when they side out all their creature kill cards (because I only have Snapcasters main), I bring in Aetherling and punish them. I almost always leave Jace in though unless I'm playing against Hyper aggro.
Syncopate is better than that. If you are planning to use it on a Farseek, do it when you are on the play, not on the draw. Farseek is also quite good against the Aggro decks on our turn 2. Stopping the BTE into Lightning Mauler is nuts against those decks. I wouldn't cut all of the copies just yet. Maybe in a few weeks the format will have slowed down enough that it can be replaced by another Dissipate.
Blood Baron is pretty much a non-threat. Take the damage for a turn or two, Revelate, then wrath. Pretty simple. If my opponent is playing Blood Barons against me, then I am more than happy. Compare him to creatures like Thragtusk, Voice of Resurgence, Obzedat, Strangleroot Geist, or Geralf's Messenger. Now those are problem creatures.
Illness in the Ranks is a card that has crossed my mind recently due to the large influx of Token decks in my meta. But the problem is that it is so narrow that it is a sideboard card as a 2-of at most. I actually think the card may be best in a Zombie aggro deck post board against Lingering Souls decks.
You are right, the metagame is not friendly right now. It is completely random, with a lot of decks trying to push the early to midgame aggression. So thanks to Cipher, and some time away from thinking about the deck, I'm going to try one more time this Friday. If I fail, then I'll switch it up for a week or two until the people gunning for me subside a bit.
I was a bit tilted from my terrible showing last week, and that clouded my judgement some. I've decided to go with a list more similar to the first week DGM was legal, when I won FNM.
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Isolated Chapel
3x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Watery Grave
Instant (20)
4x Azorius Charm
2x Dissipate
1x Far / Away
1x Renounce the Guilds
4x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Syncopate
4x Think Twice
3x Warped Physique
1x Merciless Eviction
4x Supreme Verdict
2x Terminus
Enchantment (2)
2x Detention Sphere
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, Memory Adept
Creature (3)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x AEtherling
3x Crypt Incursion
1x Devour Flesh
1x Dispel
2x Dissipate
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Negate
2x Renounce the Guilds
2x Terminus
So to the changes.
Sadly, I've dropped Crypt Incursion to the sideboard. I love the card, and it definitely gains a ton of life most of the time when I draw it, but I have a lot of token decks in my meta right now. It is just a dead card too often for me at the moment. I'm sure in a couple weeks when those token deck drop off again, Crypt Incursion will be good again. If I were to run the deck in a larger tournament, the card would swap places with Renounce the Guilds or Merciless Eviction. Probably the Eviction.
I do want the Renounce the Guilds in the mainboard right now with the heavy amount of Domri Rade decks showing up to my store. In conjunction with 2 Detention Spheres and a Merciless Eviction, I should be good against the most played planeswalkers now.
Aetherling has been moved back to the sideboard, and is now only a 1-of just for those Control matchups. Against Bant Flash, UWR Flash, and Esper decks, he is king. Against everything else, I have usually already won by the time I can cast him and protect him twice.
I've decided to up the number of sweepers a ton. 7 main with 2 more side should be enough. Terminus is really good right now because it can be cast for 1 mana (obv), gets rid of Voice of Resurgence properly, and can be sometimes cast as an instant after Think Twice or Sphinx's Rev, when you run into Sire of Insanity decks.
Sire of Insanity is a whole other topic. If you can see, I have no less than 5 ways to answer him after he has resolved before I take into account Snapcasters. Against Jund I'm bringing in the 2 other Renounce the Guilds and cutting 1-2 Warped Physique because RtG hits almost everything in their lists now. Huntmaster, Sire, and Olivia are all good targets. I don't cut all the copies since I would like to have another way to take out Thragtusk.
Anyways, that is where I'm at for the moment.
Changed syncopate to Dissapate MD will keep it for counter war sb but I like the hard counter
really liking Oblivion Ring (When I don't Augur it to the bottom) can't see why I would play detention spheres with RtG, and since no one is playing multiple of anything but creatures, the ring does the job.
Speaking of RTG, like it a lot, solves so many problems.
I moved Aetherling to SB, so far so good.
i really like 1 Crypt Incursion on the main, probaly the only card i'm not sure is Restoration Angel, what do you think?
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Azorius Charm
4 Think Twice
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Warped Physique
2 Dissipate
2 Planar Cleansing
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Far // Away
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Nephalia Drownyard
3 Watery Grave
3 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Island
1 Plains
Thanks in advance
You got the shell basically right I think, I could talk about Terminus or Merciless Eviction over Planar Cleansing, what with all the regen and indestructability in the top decks now. Regardless the SB should have some more sweepers for agro.
You are light on hard counters, you need that in the side certainly, the other 2 Dissapates, a few more. Having the option to jump to 5-6 counters is a good thing.
Instant speed answers to Sire of Insanity should be considered, upwards of 5-6, he is just devastaing, and an Aetherling. You should definitely have the ability to go to 2-3 Crypt Incursion, they are just amazing and will lock out a RDW that doesn't just blow you out first.
That leaves a few slots left, test different things, more Planeswalkers, more counters, Ring/Sphere, Witchbane Orb, Illness in the Ranks, Ghost Quarter.
Sounds like a lot of target player, witchbane orb seems like a good answer.
By the way, I just realized it sounds like I think I know what I am doing, nothing could be further from the truth. I suck at sideboarding and completely lack confidence or a coherent plan, so please someone that knows something help these people
If you're this heavy on Renounce the Guilds, why not swap Detention Sphere for Oblivion Ring? 3x Renounce and 2x Detention Sphere sounds like you're asking for it. I think it's safe to say that the multi-exile effect of Sphere won't ever come up in Jund matches, and the only other deck that runs Spheres to exile your O-ring is Esper.
In most matchups where I bring in RtG, I side out Detention Sphere, for instance, Bant Hexproof. Against Jund, I cut 1 or both Detention Spheres, since it is pretty bad against Abrupt Decay and Acidic Slime. That is the matchup I miss Planar Cleansing the most. Perhaps I should put 1 in my sideboard over a Terminus. I'm not entirely sure.
Trust me, I only made the mistake once of leaving in Detention Spheres while I brought in RtG. Having just 1 RtG mainboard with the Spheres is easy enough to play around, since most game 1's at my store I just use DSphere for taking out tokens of some sort, so sacrificing it to take out a Sorin or whatever is no big deal.
I would run Orings if I didn't have quite so much of a Token presence at my store right now. As soon as it dies down, I'll make the appropriate changes to my list.
See that was why I thought I needed spheres too, but I haven't really run into guys that will throw out a whole bunch of the same one like that. Nobody really running Sorin.
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Plains
4 Watery Grave
Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
4 Azorius Charm
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Dissipate
1 Far // Away
4 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Syncopate
4 Think Twice
3 Warped Physique
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
Enchantments
2 Detention Sphere
Planeswalkers
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Crypt Incursion
1 Dispel
2 Dissipate
1 Devour Flesh
2 Negate
2 Notion Thief
2 Terminus
2 Tragic Slip
1 Ætherling
This is where I'm at for tonights FNM. We have a PTQ coming up soon too and hope to be playing Esper at that event (a couple of weeks away). So I'm keen to get this razor sharp.
It feels like we are spoiled for choice in Esper sideboards. I have so many cards I'd love to put in but can't. Duress, Appetite for Brains, Witchbane Orb, Psychic Spiral, Feeling of Dread, Jace MA, Angel of Serenity, several variations of point removal, several variations of GY hate... etc. Frankly I'm not entirely convinced that those cards deserve to be benched, and might need a run in the sideboard.
Restoration Angel is probably fine for an aggro meta. Just remember to block with an Augur then bounce it (receiving no damage) and scrying for a card. There will come a point in the game after you have Supreme Verdict'd the board when they will play a 3/3 and try to swing at you, but you can flash block with Angel profitably. At that point you are just cleaning up the game.
For your sideboard, and for an expected aggro matchup, consider including 2 Tragic Slip, 1-2 Terminus, and 1-2 other removal (like Devour Flesh). This is just a guideline - do whatever is right.
Tragic Slip hits so much without morbid. It hits a hell of a lot more when you chump with an Augur! It's efficient and can point remove a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Lotleth Troll, Blood Artist, Falkenrath Aristocrat, any mana dork, etc. The list is huge.
Terminus is just to sweep the board as often as you can, and cheap 2 mana point removal is to keep them off your back while you stabilise.
Basically: take a few destroy spells (1 and 2 cc) and some more sweepers
I feel that 3 snapcasters is the magic number on this type of list, have you considered swap 1 snapcaster for 1 Obzedat, Ghost Council? this will stabilize you after a t4 removal and gives you access to an alternate win condition
My 4 Snapcaster Mage usually raises a few eyebrows. I find it really hard to cut the Snapcasters because I am so happy to see when I draw into them. I realise the popular number is anywhere between 2-3 (right now), but as a personal preference I have upped it from 3 to 4.
What you say is not without it's merits. Obzedat is pretty darn good. I was using him as an alternate win con main board for the duration of Gatecrash. Quite often he would just run away with a game. These days, though, I am attempting to be all-in on the drown yard game 1, and then game 2 I'd usually bring in AEtherling as an alternate win condition.
I think you're missing 2 cards in the mainboard.
I see only 31 non-lands and 27 lands. I'm thinking you left out 2x Terminus because of your comment.
You also only have 14 cards in your sideboard. So I'm guessing 1 more Terminus in the side?
What I like to do when posting a decklist, for not only my own clarity but for others, is to divide cards into a few sections and give the counts at the top of each section. For instance, my decklist for FNM in an hour or so.
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Isolated Chapel
3x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Watery Grave
Instant: 20
4x Azorius Charm
2x Dissipate
1x Far / Away
1x Renounce the Guilds
4x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Syncopate
4x Think Twice
3x Warped Physique
1x Merciless Eviction
4x Supreme Verdict
2x Terminus
Enchantment: 2
2x Detention Sphere
Planeswalker: 1
1x Jace, Memory Adept
Creature: 3
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x AEtherling
3x Crypt Incursion
1x Devour Flesh
1x Dispel
2x Dissipate
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Negate
2x Renounce the Guilds
2x Terminus
This way everything is organized, and I can count each section and verify that it all adds up to 60 and 15 respectively. Obviously you don't have to do this, but I find it much easier to determine what specific choices you made in your deck, and makes it so I can follow your findings of the matches better. Overall, this leads to better criticisms of the decklist and choices you have made, helping to improve your particular list. Anyways, just a suggestion.
Good job on the performance overall. What were the bad hands that you kept vs. RDW?
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
3x Isolated Chapel
3x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Watery Grave
1x Ghost Quarter
Instant: 19
4x Azorius Charm
3x Dissipate
1x Far / Away
4x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Think Twice
3x Warped Physique
1x Crypt Incursion
4x Supreme Verdict
2x Terminus
Enchantment: 1
1x Detention Sphere
Planeswalker: 1
1x Jace, Memory Adept
Creature: 6
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Augur of Bolas
1x Aetherling
1x AEtherling
1x Crypt Incursion
1x Renounce the Guilds
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Appetite for Brains
2x Restoration Angel
1x Redirect
1x Detention Sphere
1x Psychic Spiral
2x Purify The Grave
This is what I piloted tonight at FNM, poorly I may add. I ended up 2-2, losing to a mirror match and a Jund deck.
2 misplays ended up doing me in.
I won game 1 against jund. Game 2 I played a land I didn't need to and left myself with 4 cards in hand (Snapcaster among them, with Warped Physique in graveyard) when he dropped Sire of Insanity. Not being able to kill the sire that turn effectively ended the game. Game 3 involved a turn 4 and turn 5 Slaughter Games taking my Dissipates and Supreme Verdicts. Once he started puking his hand of critters on the table, I couldn't get stabilized.
Against the mirror, I tapped like a moron and neglected to leave myself double white for Supreme Verdict, which might have gotten me stable.
Of course the friend that was going to State's with me got stuck with work, so I guess I don't need to worry about that tomorrow, leaving me more time to fix my own poor play.
Top 8'd modern states with tarmo-twin
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells:32
2 Syncopate
3 Azorius Charm
1 Renounce the Guilds
4 Think Twice
3 Warped Physique
2 Dissipate
1 Far // Away
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Sever the Bloodline
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Terminus
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Watery Grave
1 Dead Weight
1 Dispel
2 Duress
1 Purify the Grave
2 Tragic Slip
1 Blind Obedience
1 Negate
1 Dissipate
1 Reap Intellect
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Psychic Spiral
1 AEtherling
Onto discussion, most people will disagree with 26 lands but since I've been shuffling more and better, it hasn't been a problem at all since I run 4 think twice. Terminus was the best card all night(except against control but that's obvious). Against midrange it let me blow up their field and leave up counter mana and against Aggro it just saves you where no other card could. Jace, architect of thought was also the nuts as expected in a field full of Aggro and control with very little reanimator. Sever was there just for sure of insanity, and the oblivion rings were there because I run a single renounce the guilds.
I think I want a single augur or two in the sideboard or mainboard, because late game when I need another sphinx to seal the game, I just couldn't draw it sometimes. Reap intellect was bad, unless I was on the play which meant I was favored anyway against midrange decks. My only loss was a b/w zombies in the Swiss and then again in the finals. It went to game three both times but he was on the play so I was highly disadvantaged. If I had one more anti-aggressive card instead of reap in my side I could have pulled it out. I'm thinking of either crypt incursion, augur of bolas, azorius charm, riot control, divine deflection, curse of death's hold.
Edit: also I believe that 4 counterspells was 1 to many and I think syncopate is better in this Aggro filled meta so I'll cut a dissipate, and probably put either augur or the 4th azorius charm in. More testing will be required. Also for those saying augur is bad, don't play him until you need something against midrange or control. Keep him in hand as long as you can because the later the game gets the better he gets finding you exactly what you need, be that a sweeper or a sphinx's.
Top 8'd modern states with tarmo-twin
In round 1, you drew all 4 Drownyards both games against the mirror, your 1 of Purify, 1 of Spiral, and so forth. Your opponent played flawlessly, but you drew the exact outs.
Against zombies, you miracled a Terminus twice with lethal on board with nothing relevant in hand. You also drew more 1 ofs (dead weight) in the perfect position.
A few other people were talking about how you had some ridiculous rips in their matches against you.
Congrats on your finish, but that list is not something I would recommend to anyone.
That's how the list works; the point of the deck is to maximize getting terminus miracled to get out of situations. We also have the normal plan of just sphinx's over and over again. I do agree I need an augur or two back in the list 8 was just testing out augur less list after getting annoyed with them. I haven't had that much time to test so the singletons were to figure out what works, and honestly it worked quite well.
Top 8'd modern states with tarmo-twin
Its just a little outrageous that I cast appetite to take a Jace, MA from you and you had your single purify to stop me from grabbing your spiral with snapcaster, and never drew one of my 7 post-board counterspells when you went to resolve spiral. Not to mention, you were dead to Aetherling both games and had all 4 drownyards to seal the deal (even g2 when your removal was boarded out)
Game 1 my second jace, architect of thought stuck for a long time, so he filtered away a bunch of cards. Secondly, you're correct about being dead to aetherling but sometimes you just have he drownyards, also it was that late in the game where we had drawn a bunch of extra lands and I had enough to pay for 4 drownyards anyway. Luck does factor in the mirror a lot, but against other aggressive decks, my deck is very resilient.
Honestly putting that out there--whoever draws the most drownyards wins the mirror most of the time. It's pretty much luck. Aetherling wins as well as jace but most of the time it comes down to drownyards.
And at the end of the second match I had maybe ~7 cards left in library before I psychic spiraled so having all 4 drownyards at that time wasn't that ridiculous honestly.
Top 8'd modern states with tarmo-twin