This would be a bad move as it does not delay them long enough.
Our most...Gruul-ing...match-up proves that they can put out 4 creatures, hold a fistfull of cards, and win the game before we can wrath.
I'm almost of the mindset that our removal spells of Ultimate Price and Devour Flesh may not be worth it. Devour Flesh may need to come in from the board vs Hexproof decks, but MD we may need to have better answers to the variety of creatures.
I will be trying Feeling of Dread and perhaps a Murder or two. I know this may not be completely optimal but the aggro decks are able to play a few creatures without over-extending, and still get in some damage.
I think the answer is Gloom Surgeon. He stone walls RG so hard. They actually can't attack with him on the field.
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Quote from Kiln Fiend »
I shout out YOLO every time I fetch for an untapped shockland.
The only good burn spell on turn 2 right now is Searing Spear. Pillar of Flame is very weak right now.
Also, I would rather have the aggro deck use up a burn spell on turn 2/3 to get rid of Gloom Surgeon than advance his board state with a creature.
Exactly. If you can make it to 4 mana with over 10 points of life you are extremely favored to win.
One question I have is how much sideboard hate do you need. Do Gloom Surgeon and Blind Obedience overlap too much? Personally it seems like you'd want both but that means cutting things like Dead weight which you just can't do against Naya Humans.
Speaking of which what is the Naya Humans' match-up against Stark-Esper btw?
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Quote from Kiln Fiend »
I shout out YOLO every time I fetch for an untapped shockland.
I took Stark's list and cut the cleansings, for Terminus, and out of side I add 4 blind obediance and another Terminus. Blind Obediance has be super great against aggro for me. If i dont have a hand that doesnt have Augur, Charm, Devour Flesh or Blind obediance I have been mulling right away. So far I havent lost a round to Aggro or anything really but 1 match against Jund.
I did a lot of testing for Naya Humans against Esper, and I stayed on the draw often, and only lost about 1-2 games. If you keep vital 2 drops, and have/draw a sweeper, you will be fine.
This is the list Brian Demars took to SCG Cincy, and went 8-2. He was VERY versatile against the field. It was also a lot more fun than the 100% Mill plan. I changed up like 3 slots, and added Psychic Spiral over Ultimate Price in the board.
Lingering Souls was the best card in my deck. It just dominated. I have never been more happy with the card. Having a lot of Planeswalkers is something I am not accustomed to, but it worked out very well. They ate a TON of burn and boros charms (instead of my face). I've never played with Sorin before, but he REALLY stood out as an all star. Dropping him after a Verdict is pretty crazy, especially with a Lingering Souls in the yard. Getting Liliana online is just a beating, she is by far my favorite and I wish I had more room for an extra.
I played against 3 different Naya decks, 1 Red Deck Wins and Jund Midrange.
Wolf Run is a huge problem card we have to deal with though. Running so many Planeswalkers, and small tokens/Augurs was just not enough. I really drew well, but anything that hits the board with a Wolf Run out will most likely take out your Planeswalkers.
I can't imagine after playing with this 75, of ever wanting to cut Tragic Slip. It was an all star for me as well. It was never a dead draw. Ultimate Price on the other hand, was pretty meh. Being a 1 of makes a lot more sense to me, I was going to run 2. I might try Victim of Night over it.
So this is Ben Stark's list, which obviously did very well.
I like it better than the token and Super Friends lists at the moment because i want to be able to recycle removal and win by pecking them down if they manage to stop Drownyard.
I made a few small changes, however:
-1 Planar Cleansing
+1 Merciless Eviction
Eviction is money against undying creatures, it evades Boros Charm and indestructible, and it can also be used on any other problems without necessarily wiping your stuff. Planar is a great "oh shoot" button, but it does do you in as well. As a primarily UWR player right now, I can tell you that I would much rather see Planar that Eviction.
-1 Ultimate Price
+1 Victim of Night
Also following Archie on this (as with adding Merciless Eviction.) I think the value is higher and BB should not be hard to hit.
2 Gloom Surgeon to the Main
2 Devour Flesh to the Side
Gloom Surgeon is strictly better than Devour against aggro right now since they can drop 3-6 creatures turn 3, making Devour Flesh read "sac least value card for 1B".
Maybe...
-2 Angel of Serenity
+2 ?
I suppose it is good versus Mid-range, but I don't like it against anything else. then again, what else would I put in? Ghost Grandpa is ok, I suppose, but he doesn't feel better in this deck than AoS.
Maybe...
-2 Angel of Serenity
+2 ?
I suppose it is good versus Mid-range, but I don't like it against anything else. then again, what else would I put in? Ghost Grandpa is ok, I suppose, but he doesn't feel better in this deck than AoS.
I've found that Angel of Serenity works wonders in the mirror match. The mirror match is very difficult and it quickly turns into a match of who can find the Orb first; who can resolve the Orb first; etcetera. Without Detention Sphere (which I do not miss as I find it a lot worse than it seems), you're going to have to rely on Planar Cleansing to get rid of their Orb and Jace if they pull ahead in the mill race.
The way to prevent this conundrum is simple: kill via combat damage. If your opponent saw enough of your deck to know that it was a mirror, what are the first things they are going to cut? Likely spot removal and sweepers. Angel of Serenity can chain with itself to provide so much value even if they do find the couple of sweepers they left in the deck. I've been tinkering with this list for a while, and I'm even considering upping the Serenity count to 3 for this very reason.
Gloom Surgeon does not sound like an answer to Aggro at all. Why not just play Lingering Souls? Augur has 3 toughness. I'd play Resto Angel over Gloom Surgeon in a heartbeat.
I just can't see cutting 2 removal spells for a terrible creature that does nothing for your board.
I've been playing Ben's list since the PT. A version of it before hand. Couple things I like and dislike about the list.
Gloom Surgeon - I really hate this card. I would much rather have 3 more utility spells. My meta currently has a few reanimator decks running around. 3 Rest in Peace seems good.
Angel of Serenity - I love this card vs the Mirror or other control decks. Also deals with Thragtusk fairly well. 2 is fine. If your meta calls for it, 3 is fine as well.
Ghost Quarter - as a 3/1 split with Nephalia Drownyard I think would fine. I've seen some versions running Jace, Memory Adept main deck as a 1-of. 1 Ghost Quarter would be fine.
Ultimate Price - This card is bad. Boros Reckoner is a card. Most cards that you want to hit are multi-colored anyways(In my meta). I think that Victim of the Night or Murder would be a better pick here.
Devour Flesh - This is another card that is based on your meta. If you mainly have aggro decks, maybe you need to play 2 more wipers. If you have to face mainly midrange decks. This is a good card. IMO.
Overall, there are a few cards that you need to change out based on your current meta. My current meta is aggro(at the big store) and bad homebrew decks(at the small store).
I've been playing Ben's list since the PT. A version of it before hand. Couple things I like and dislike about the list.
Gloom Surgeon - I really hate this card. I would much rather have 3 more utility spells. My meta currently has a few reanimator decks running around. 3 Rest in Peace seems good.
Angel of Serenity - I love this card vs the Mirror or other control decks. Also deals with Thragtusk fairly well. 2 is fine. If your meta calls for it, 3 is fine as well.
Ghost Quarter - as a 3/1 split with Nephalia Drownyard I think would fine. I've seen some versions running Jace, Memory Adept main deck as a 1-of. 1 Ghost Quarter would be fine.
Ultimate Price - This card is bad. Boros Reckoner is a card. Most cards that you want to hit are multi-colored anyways(In my meta). I think that Victim of the Night or Murder would be a better pick here.
Devour Flesh - This is another card that is based on your meta. If you mainly have aggro decks, maybe you need to play 2 more wipers. If you have to face mainly midrange decks. This is a good card. IMO.
Overall, there are a few cards that you need to change out based on your current meta. My current meta is aggro(at the big store) and bad homebrew decks(at the small store).
Agreed. I'm not sure about Angel of Serenity though. Is it really that good? Eating Thragtusk with your Angel in my experience just is never a good idea (Unless you're on the mill plan). Angel, being a mono color spell is not hard to kill at all.
Angel is just too slow for me against most Aggro decks. Once you've stabilized, you essentially win. I'd rather play a Sorin or Tamiyo. If not dealt with quickly...you win.
After playing Stark's deck, many top SCG Open Esper decks...I found that Planeswalkers are just one of the best options out there. Even if they die, you're gaining essentially 4-8 life per.
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I know what it does, what does it DO?
-Michael Jacob
Round 2 Vs Jund Aggro 2-0
Game 1:Here Terminus on second Turn give me the match, my friend says you gonna waste that on this guy? a 2/2 Crackler. i respond yeah, this cost 6, if i dont do probabily i`m not gonna reach the 6 land. when i do the math i was correct that crackler would kill me :(.
Game:2 i remember something similar, turn 1 crackler pass, my turn turn one shock land, pay two life Dead Weight.
Round 3 Vs GW Midrange 2-0
Round 4 ID
Top 4 Vs GW Same guy from Round 3 2-0
Final Vs Esperwalker/tokens 2-0
I finished 2nd in my gameday with a list that was stark's list -1 dramatic resuce, -2 think twice and +2 dimir charm, +1 terminus. I'm still making my mind up about dimir charm - i like it when there are a lot of aggressive green/red decks since it is at least functional in nearly every match, but its weaker against midrange decks. Overall I went 4-1-2 with the loss in the final.
My sideboard was 3 purify the grave, 2 blind obedience, 2 memory adept, 2 negate, 2 witchbane orb, 2 gloom surgeon, 1 psychic spiral, 1 ghost quarter.
I didn't get to get an opinion on gloom surgeon: every time i cast him he ate a pillar of flame or searing spear and didn't do anything. Want to see more.
Round 1: Mirror match. Won game 1, lost game 2 narrowly when he sided in to Obzedat and Boros Reckoner (died to Obzedat drain on his upkeep before he drew from an empty library). Won game 3 handily.
Round 2: B/W Golgari. Ran assorted annoying cards (Liliana, Garruk Relentless, Thragtusk, Jarad, Deadbridge, even Vraska). This deck went 4-1 in swiss because no one was ready for it. I won 2-1
Round 3: Another mirror match against a player not as experienced with the Esper list. Won comfortably 2-0.
Round 4: Paired with the other 3-0, drew.
Round 5: Paired with one of the 3-1s, drew him in.
T8: Mono-red with green sources for Kessig Wolf Run. Lost game 1 narrowly, won games 2 and 3 handily after sideboarding in Blind Obedience, Gloom Surgeon and Witchbane Orb. Augur-Blind Obedience-wipe-witchbane orb was an amazing play sequence. Game 3 we both mulled to 5 and I aggrod her out with gloom surgeon and a resto angel after removing the first 3 creatures. I'll note this is one of those situations where Dimir charm is nice - I got to use it to ensure she drew dead when she had no threats to cast.
T4: This tournament is also a qualifier for a local invitational tournament. My semifinal opponent was already qualified and scooped me into the final. He was playing a GB crypt ghast/griselbrand deck with green for assorted other shenanigans. This player is quite a bit better than me (qualified for PT DGM) and knows my deck pretty well and was playing his for the first time. I don't think I would have won this match if we had played it since I had no idea what was in his deck, and he was well prepared for Esper since there were 7 or 8 of them in the room.
Final: Mono-red. I felt like I had a good matchup here, but drew very poorly (kept 3 land, verdict, and 3 removal spells and didn't draw into the 2nd white source, etc) and lost pretty quickly both games. This player's also quite a bit better than me but I'm pretty sure that I would win a majority of matchups between our decks. I had almost no bad draws all day (I only mulliganed twice all day before G3 of my top 8 match) so it was bound to come back to haunt me eventually.
Overall I was happy and dimir charm was a respectable card. I didn't have it as much as Id have liked in the matches where it was the best (against the two red decks) but it is always good against them and it's also reasonable in the mirror since it can either dig or fateseal. I used it 4 times on the day to fateseal an opponent into a land drop and binned relevant cards each time, and once snatched victory from the jaws of defeat against the 4-1 Golgari deck (in game 3 no less) when I got stuck on 5 land with Planar cleansing and he played Garruk Relentless > Deadbridge Goliath > Vraska. I had 3 white sources and 2 other lands, dimir charmed myself on his EOT, put a drownyard on top, and planar cleansed leaving his hand empty.
Some of the other Esper players (and there were a stupid number of them last night) questioned the dimir charm, and its definitely never the strongest card in the deck, but its also almost always relevant. Its the card in the deck I'm most conflicted about at the moment. 2 devour/2 charm/1 ultimate price was decent but I faced very few Boros Reckoners and all 3 are bad against him. On the other hand, he isn't that dangerous to our deck either and I was never particularly worried about him - he's no more of a clock than a restoration angel, and if needbe he can be chumped by Augur and just pings you for one, or trades with a Restoration Angel. Frankly, most of the other cards in the decks that play him (geists, hellriders, even ash zealots) are scarier for us than Boros Reckoner.
He is a good stall tactic, but he allows interaction, where removal or feeling of dread do not.
What makes me nervous about Feeling of Dread is that if I don't draw a sweeper I'm still dead. While as with Gloom Surgeon you have a defensive guy who'll just keep killing there guys.
He's definitely better than a dead weight against RDW RBDW RG and Naya Humans. And I think you guys who don't like him, haven't played the RG match-up enough. They are so incredibly fast that'll be dead unless you have a large amount of early removal, or a gloom surgeon.
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Quote from Kiln Fiend »
I shout out YOLO every time I fetch for an untapped shockland.
Round 2 Vs Jund Aggro 2-0
Game 1:Here Terminus on second Turn give me the match, my friend says you gonna waste that on this guy? a 2/2 Crackler. i respond yeah, this cost 6, if i dont do probabily i`m not gonna reach the 6 land. when i do the math i was correct that crackler would kill me :(.
Game:2 i remember something similar, turn 1 crackler pass, my turn turn one shock land, pay two life Dead Weight.
Round 3 Vs GW Midrange 2-0
Round 4 ID
Top 4 Vs GW Same guy from Round 3 2-0
Final Vs Esperwalker/tokens 2-0
So how did you beat Esper Tokens 2-0? I felt like that matchup was extremely difficult due to the number of planeswalkers and Lingering Souls is pretty tough to deal with. I pretty much just wanted to draw every Supreme Verdict, both Planar Cleansings, and my copy of Merciless Eviction just so I could keep wrathing his creatures and/or planeswalkers. Also, the mill plan can put too many Lingering Souls in the grave which makes the match more troublesome. Any input for that matchup is appreciated.
T4: This tournament is also a qualifier for a local invitational tournament. My semifinal opponent was already qualified and scooped me into the final. He was playing a GB crypt ghast/griselbrand deck with green for assorted other shenanigans. This player is quite a bit better than me (qualified for PT DGM) and knows my deck pretty well and was playing his for the first time. I don't think I would have won this match if we had played it since I had no idea what was in his deck, and he was well prepared for Esper since there were 7 or 8 of them in the room.
I think he may have scooped because if you just hold up a Supreme Verdict for his Crypt Ghast, he pretty much auto loses. You can even just keep up a Dissipate for the Griselbrand, and its gg. I'm speaking from experience on the other side of the matchup with BR Crypt Ghast/Griselbrand. Even that matchup isn't very good, and pretty much solely dependent on drawing Slaughter Games and Rakdos's Return post board. Game 1 is an auto loss for them, since they will just have far too much blank removal. When you get to the point where you can hold up a kill spell or counter and can drownyard them, the game is over.
What makes me nervous about Feeling of Dread is that if I don't draw a sweeper I'm still dead. While as with Gloom Surgeon you have a defensive guy who'll just keep killing there guys.
He's definitely better than a dead weight against RDW RBDW RG and Naya Humans. And I think you guys who don't like him, haven't played the RG match-up enough. They are so incredibly fast that'll be dead unless you have a large amount of early removal, or a gloom surgeon.
I am watching Andrew Cuneo stream Stark's deck right now, he was playing against RG and sided in Gloom Surgeon.
It was Pillar/Spear fodder. They didn't do anything bu absorb a spell. He wasn't too thrilled either lol
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I know what it does, what does it DO?
-Michael Jacob
Has anybody considered Sands of Delerium? Seems like a good eot play that essentially becomes a less restrictive drownyard, and gives you the option of ripping more than 3 at a time to close the game. Just a thought.
Has anybody considered Sands of Delerium? Seems like a good eot play that essentially becomes a less restrictive drownyard, and gives you the option of ripping more than 3 at a time to close the game. Just a thought.
Maybe if it cost 4 mana. There's gonna be a lot of Abrupt Decay. The whole point of Drownyard is it can't easily be interacted with.
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A mere ten days after the Mending, a young knight of Valeron and a young ranger of Eos made a discovery that would change Alara forever.
Maybe if it cost 4 mana. There's gonna be a lot of Abrupt Decay. The whole point of Drownyard is it can't easily be interacted with.
I agree with you on the fact that abrupt decay makes the card worse...but jace memory adept may just be basically better...and id like to point out the fact that you looked at a cheap mana cost as a bad thing lol (with good reason, but its humorous and i never thought id see the day) 4cmc would be overcosted
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I agree with you on the fact that abrupt decay makes the card worse...but jace memory adept may just be basically better...and id like to point out the fact that you looked at a cheap mana cost as a bad thing lol (with good reason, but its humorous and i never thought id see the day) 4cmc would be overcosted
The whole point of Nephalia Drownyard is that it's a win condition that is nearly immune from interaction by others and that doesn't even use a card slot in your deck (its a colorless land so its not quite as good as a real land, but the difference is a lot less than a card's worth).
We're not killing people with them because we love milling or because there aren't faster options, we're doing it because Nephalia Drownyard is unpreventably inevitable. There's really only two ways in standard to interact with it profitably: Tamiyo (freeze one out with tap ability) and Ghost Quarter.
An artifact that's vulnerable to a regularly mainboarded removal spell is not a solution. If we wanted to spend whole cards on win conditions, there are better ways both for milling (Memory Adept, heck, even Mind Grind) or otherwise. The reason everyone uses Drownyard is that it lets you focus every card in the deck on control. Otherwise, mill is a crappy strategy - unlike killing via creature damage, it doesn't create board position or force them to waste cards in hand/removal/burn etc defensively.
If you want to propose spending a card or two to enhance the win condition or provide another method, that's quite reasonable, but there are much, much better creature based methods (Obzedat, Drogskol Reaver) and mill enhancers (Memory Adept, etc).
My post was genuine sarcasm at the response to gambitmain007 except for pointing out that memory adept adds to the mill gameplan with only a bit more initial mana investment. I know what the purpose of drownyard is in the deck, it just came with some surprise that someone was saying that a card would be better if it had cost more. Jace basically ends the game on the mill plan faster out of the board or in the main (depending on when the player is comfortable slamming an offensive 5 mana walker) but drownyard is sometimes viewed as too slow unless you dig very consistently for most of your 26-27 lands.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
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Anyways here is my list:
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Nephalia's Drownyard
4x Watery Grave
3x Godless Shrine
Creatures: (3)
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
Enchantments: (5)
3x Blind Obedience
2x Detention Sphere
1x Jace, Memory Adept
Instants: (18)
4x Azorius Charm
4x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice
2x Devour Flesh
2x Dissipate
2x Ultimate Price
Sorceries: (6)
4x Supreme Verdict
2x Terminus
3x Rhox Faithmender
2x Devour Flesh
2x Dispel
2x Negate
2x Witchbane Orb
1x Jace, Memory Adept
1x Pithing Needle
1x Psychic Spiral
1x Terminus
I went 5-0 at yesterday's Gameday for first place, my meta consists of mostly aggro. Unfortunately I didn't take notes so I don't have a full report.
I played against:
R1: Kessig-Jundrun 2-0
R2: RDW 2-1
R3: GW Aggro 2-0
R4: Hexproof Bantchantments 2-0
R5: Mostly Red Boros 2-1
I think the answer is Gloom Surgeon. He stone walls RG so hard. They actually can't attack with him on the field.
The only good burn spell on turn 2 right now is Searing Spear. Pillar of Flame is very weak right now.
Also, I would rather have the aggro deck use up a burn spell on turn 2/3 to get rid of Gloom Surgeon than advance his board state with a creature.
Exactly. If you can make it to 4 mana with over 10 points of life you are extremely favored to win.
One question I have is how much sideboard hate do you need. Do Gloom Surgeon and Blind Obedience overlap too much? Personally it seems like you'd want both but that means cutting things like Dead weight which you just can't do against Naya Humans.
Speaking of which what is the Naya Humans' match-up against Stark-Esper btw?
I did a lot of testing for Naya Humans against Esper, and I stayed on the draw often, and only lost about 1-2 games. If you keep vital 2 drops, and have/draw a sweeper, you will be fine.
Daretti
Ezuri
Captain Sisay (In work)
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Godless Shrine
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
3 Watery Grave
2 Devour Flesh
1 Dissipate
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Syncopate
3 Think Twice
2 Tragic Slip
1 Ultimate Price
3 Lingering Souls
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Rhox Faithmender
2 Blind Obedience
1 Rest in Peace
3 Negate
2 Purify the Grave
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Jace, Memory Adept
This is the list Brian Demars took to SCG Cincy, and went 8-2. He was VERY versatile against the field. It was also a lot more fun than the 100% Mill plan. I changed up like 3 slots, and added Psychic Spiral over Ultimate Price in the board.
Other lists I was testing out were using Jace, Memory Adept, Terminus, Blind Obedience...while cutting Tragic Slip, Lingering Souls, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and Liliana of the Veil.
Lingering Souls was the best card in my deck. It just dominated. I have never been more happy with the card. Having a lot of Planeswalkers is something I am not accustomed to, but it worked out very well. They ate a TON of burn and boros charms (instead of my face). I've never played with Sorin before, but he REALLY stood out as an all star. Dropping him after a Verdict is pretty crazy, especially with a Lingering Souls in the yard. Getting Liliana online is just a beating, she is by far my favorite and I wish I had more room for an extra.
I played against 3 different Naya decks, 1 Red Deck Wins and Jund Midrange.
Wolf Run is a huge problem card we have to deal with though. Running so many Planeswalkers, and small tokens/Augurs was just not enough. I really drew well, but anything that hits the board with a Wolf Run out will most likely take out your Planeswalkers.
I can't imagine after playing with this 75, of ever wanting to cut Tragic Slip. It was an all star for me as well. It was never a dead draw. Ultimate Price on the other hand, was pretty meh. Being a 1 of makes a lot more sense to me, I was going to run 2. I might try Victim of Night over it.
-Michael Jacob
Creatures [9]
4 Augur of Bolas
3 Restoration Angel
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instant [18]
4 Azorius Charm
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dissipate
1 Dramatic Rescue
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Think Twice
1 Ultimate Price
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Planar Cleansing
Lands [27]
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Plains
2 Watery Grave
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Dispel
2 Duress
3 Gloom Surgeon
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Negate
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Rest in Peace
2 Witchbane Orb
So this is Ben Stark's list, which obviously did very well.
I like it better than the token and Super Friends lists at the moment because i want to be able to recycle removal and win by pecking them down if they manage to stop Drownyard.
I made a few small changes, however:
-1 Planar Cleansing
+1 Merciless Eviction
Eviction is money against undying creatures, it evades Boros Charm and indestructible, and it can also be used on any other problems without necessarily wiping your stuff. Planar is a great "oh shoot" button, but it does do you in as well. As a primarily UWR player right now, I can tell you that I would much rather see Planar that Eviction.
-1 Ultimate Price
+1 Victim of Night
Also following Archie on this (as with adding Merciless Eviction.) I think the value is higher and BB should not be hard to hit.
2 Gloom Surgeon to the Main
2 Devour Flesh to the Side
Gloom Surgeon is strictly better than Devour against aggro right now since they can drop 3-6 creatures turn 3, making Devour Flesh read "sac least value card for 1B".
Maybe...
-2 Angel of Serenity
+2 ?
I suppose it is good versus Mid-range, but I don't like it against anything else. then again, what else would I put in? Ghost Grandpa is ok, I suppose, but he doesn't feel better in this deck than AoS.
-1 Nephalia
+1 Ghost Quarter
For Kessig decks.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I've found that Angel of Serenity works wonders in the mirror match. The mirror match is very difficult and it quickly turns into a match of who can find the Orb first; who can resolve the Orb first; etcetera. Without Detention Sphere (which I do not miss as I find it a lot worse than it seems), you're going to have to rely on Planar Cleansing to get rid of their Orb and Jace if they pull ahead in the mill race.
The way to prevent this conundrum is simple: kill via combat damage. If your opponent saw enough of your deck to know that it was a mirror, what are the first things they are going to cut? Likely spot removal and sweepers. Angel of Serenity can chain with itself to provide so much value even if they do find the couple of sweepers they left in the deck. I've been tinkering with this list for a while, and I'm even considering upping the Serenity count to 3 for this very reason.
I just can't see cutting 2 removal spells for a terrible creature that does nothing for your board.
-Michael Jacob
I've been playing Ben's list since the PT. A version of it before hand. Couple things I like and dislike about the list.
Gloom Surgeon - I really hate this card. I would much rather have 3 more utility spells. My meta currently has a few reanimator decks running around. 3 Rest in Peace seems good.
Angel of Serenity - I love this card vs the Mirror or other control decks. Also deals with Thragtusk fairly well. 2 is fine. If your meta calls for it, 3 is fine as well.
Ghost Quarter - as a 3/1 split with Nephalia Drownyard I think would fine. I've seen some versions running Jace, Memory Adept main deck as a 1-of. 1 Ghost Quarter would be fine.
Ultimate Price - This card is bad. Boros Reckoner is a card. Most cards that you want to hit are multi-colored anyways(In my meta). I think that Victim of the Night or Murder would be a better pick here.
Devour Flesh - This is another card that is based on your meta. If you mainly have aggro decks, maybe you need to play 2 more wipers. If you have to face mainly midrange decks. This is a good card. IMO.
Overall, there are a few cards that you need to change out based on your current meta. My current meta is aggro(at the big store) and bad homebrew decks(at the small store).
Current Standard Decks:
WUBRGl 5 COLOR CONTROL WUBRG
Agreed. I'm not sure about Angel of Serenity though. Is it really that good? Eating Thragtusk with your Angel in my experience just is never a good idea (Unless you're on the mill plan). Angel, being a mono color spell is not hard to kill at all.
Angel is just too slow for me against most Aggro decks. Once you've stabilized, you essentially win. I'd rather play a Sorin or Tamiyo. If not dealt with quickly...you win.
After playing Stark's deck, many top SCG Open Esper decks...I found that Planeswalkers are just one of the best options out there. Even if they die, you're gaining essentially 4-8 life per.
-Michael Jacob
- 2 Planar Cleansing
+ 2 Terminus
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
2 Island
1 Plains
Creatures
4 Augur of Bolas
3 Restoration Angel
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Azorius Charm
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Think Twice
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dissipate
2 Terminus
1 Dramatic Rescue
1 Ultimate Price
2 Duress
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Dead Weight
2 Planar Cleansing
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Rest in Peace
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Sundering Growth
2 Dead Weight & 1 Cyclonic Rift , must be Gloom Surgeon, but my friend forgot to bring it with him. but im very pleasure with Dead Weight
1 Sundering Growth must be [CARD]Witchbane Orb
[/CARD]
Don't remember a lot of details.
Round 1 Vs BUG Control 2-1
Round 2 Vs Jund Aggro 2-0
Game 1:Here Terminus on second Turn give me the match, my friend says you gonna waste that on this guy? a 2/2 Crackler. i respond yeah, this cost 6, if i dont do probabily i`m not gonna reach the 6 land. when i do the math i was correct that crackler would kill me :(.
Game:2 i remember something similar, turn 1 crackler pass, my turn turn one shock land, pay two life Dead Weight.
Round 3 Vs GW Midrange 2-0
Round 4 ID
Top 4 Vs GW Same guy from Round 3 2-0
Final Vs Esperwalker/tokens 2-0
My sideboard was 3 purify the grave, 2 blind obedience, 2 memory adept, 2 negate, 2 witchbane orb, 2 gloom surgeon, 1 psychic spiral, 1 ghost quarter.
I didn't get to get an opinion on gloom surgeon: every time i cast him he ate a pillar of flame or searing spear and didn't do anything. Want to see more.
Round 1: Mirror match. Won game 1, lost game 2 narrowly when he sided in to Obzedat and Boros Reckoner (died to Obzedat drain on his upkeep before he drew from an empty library). Won game 3 handily.
Round 2: B/W Golgari. Ran assorted annoying cards (Liliana, Garruk Relentless, Thragtusk, Jarad, Deadbridge, even Vraska). This deck went 4-1 in swiss because no one was ready for it. I won 2-1
Round 3: Another mirror match against a player not as experienced with the Esper list. Won comfortably 2-0.
Round 4: Paired with the other 3-0, drew.
Round 5: Paired with one of the 3-1s, drew him in.
T8: Mono-red with green sources for Kessig Wolf Run. Lost game 1 narrowly, won games 2 and 3 handily after sideboarding in Blind Obedience, Gloom Surgeon and Witchbane Orb. Augur-Blind Obedience-wipe-witchbane orb was an amazing play sequence. Game 3 we both mulled to 5 and I aggrod her out with gloom surgeon and a resto angel after removing the first 3 creatures. I'll note this is one of those situations where Dimir charm is nice - I got to use it to ensure she drew dead when she had no threats to cast.
T4: This tournament is also a qualifier for a local invitational tournament. My semifinal opponent was already qualified and scooped me into the final. He was playing a GB crypt ghast/griselbrand deck with green for assorted other shenanigans. This player is quite a bit better than me (qualified for PT DGM) and knows my deck pretty well and was playing his for the first time. I don't think I would have won this match if we had played it since I had no idea what was in his deck, and he was well prepared for Esper since there were 7 or 8 of them in the room.
Final: Mono-red. I felt like I had a good matchup here, but drew very poorly (kept 3 land, verdict, and 3 removal spells and didn't draw into the 2nd white source, etc) and lost pretty quickly both games. This player's also quite a bit better than me but I'm pretty sure that I would win a majority of matchups between our decks. I had almost no bad draws all day (I only mulliganed twice all day before G3 of my top 8 match) so it was bound to come back to haunt me eventually.
Overall I was happy and dimir charm was a respectable card. I didn't have it as much as Id have liked in the matches where it was the best (against the two red decks) but it is always good against them and it's also reasonable in the mirror since it can either dig or fateseal. I used it 4 times on the day to fateseal an opponent into a land drop and binned relevant cards each time, and once snatched victory from the jaws of defeat against the 4-1 Golgari deck (in game 3 no less) when I got stuck on 5 land with Planar cleansing and he played Garruk Relentless > Deadbridge Goliath > Vraska. I had 3 white sources and 2 other lands, dimir charmed myself on his EOT, put a drownyard on top, and planar cleansed leaving his hand empty.
Some of the other Esper players (and there were a stupid number of them last night) questioned the dimir charm, and its definitely never the strongest card in the deck, but its also almost always relevant. Its the card in the deck I'm most conflicted about at the moment. 2 devour/2 charm/1 ultimate price was decent but I faced very few Boros Reckoners and all 3 are bad against him. On the other hand, he isn't that dangerous to our deck either and I was never particularly worried about him - he's no more of a clock than a restoration angel, and if needbe he can be chumped by Augur and just pings you for one, or trades with a Restoration Angel. Frankly, most of the other cards in the decks that play him (geists, hellriders, even ash zealots) are scarier for us than Boros Reckoner.
Lurker. Rules Advisor. Sleepy.
What makes me nervous about Feeling of Dread is that if I don't draw a sweeper I'm still dead. While as with Gloom Surgeon you have a defensive guy who'll just keep killing there guys.
He's definitely better than a dead weight against RDW RBDW RG and Naya Humans. And I think you guys who don't like him, haven't played the RG match-up enough. They are so incredibly fast that'll be dead unless you have a large amount of early removal, or a gloom surgeon.
So how did you beat Esper Tokens 2-0? I felt like that matchup was extremely difficult due to the number of planeswalkers and Lingering Souls is pretty tough to deal with. I pretty much just wanted to draw every Supreme Verdict, both Planar Cleansings, and my copy of Merciless Eviction just so I could keep wrathing his creatures and/or planeswalkers. Also, the mill plan can put too many Lingering Souls in the grave which makes the match more troublesome. Any input for that matchup is appreciated.
I think he may have scooped because if you just hold up a Supreme Verdict for his Crypt Ghast, he pretty much auto loses. You can even just keep up a Dissipate for the Griselbrand, and its gg. I'm speaking from experience on the other side of the matchup with BR Crypt Ghast/Griselbrand. Even that matchup isn't very good, and pretty much solely dependent on drawing Slaughter Games and Rakdos's Return post board. Game 1 is an auto loss for them, since they will just have far too much blank removal. When you get to the point where you can hold up a kill spell or counter and can drownyard them, the game is over.
Anyways congrats on the 2nd place!
I am watching Andrew Cuneo stream Stark's deck right now, he was playing against RG and sided in Gloom Surgeon.
It was Pillar/Spear fodder. They didn't do anything bu absorb a spell. He wasn't too thrilled either lol
-Michael Jacob
That is a burn spell that doesn't go to my face and potentially a creature not put on the board for that turn.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6852400#post6852400
Maybe if it cost 4 mana. There's gonna be a lot of Abrupt Decay. The whole point of Drownyard is it can't easily be interacted with.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
I agree with you on the fact that abrupt decay makes the card worse...but jace memory adept may just be basically better...and id like to point out the fact that you looked at a cheap mana cost as a bad thing lol (with good reason, but its humorous and i never thought id see the day) 4cmc would be overcosted
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
The whole point of Nephalia Drownyard is that it's a win condition that is nearly immune from interaction by others and that doesn't even use a card slot in your deck (its a colorless land so its not quite as good as a real land, but the difference is a lot less than a card's worth).
We're not killing people with them because we love milling or because there aren't faster options, we're doing it because Nephalia Drownyard is unpreventably inevitable. There's really only two ways in standard to interact with it profitably: Tamiyo (freeze one out with tap ability) and Ghost Quarter.
An artifact that's vulnerable to a regularly mainboarded removal spell is not a solution. If we wanted to spend whole cards on win conditions, there are better ways both for milling (Memory Adept, heck, even Mind Grind) or otherwise. The reason everyone uses Drownyard is that it lets you focus every card in the deck on control. Otherwise, mill is a crappy strategy - unlike killing via creature damage, it doesn't create board position or force them to waste cards in hand/removal/burn etc defensively.
If you want to propose spending a card or two to enhance the win condition or provide another method, that's quite reasonable, but there are much, much better creature based methods (Obzedat, Drogskol Reaver) and mill enhancers (Memory Adept, etc).
Lurker. Rules Advisor. Sleepy.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control