I think I might be a UWR convert, after considering going straight UW for so long. There are just so many more options, which I think is worth losing a little bit of consistency for. Hoping to play something like this at an upcoming GPT.
That should definitely be four Jace, AoTs. I have a fourth coming in the mail. I swear I'm not crazy.
Am I alone in thinking that one Assemble the Legion is fine? It's a card that I don't want to draw in multiples. And if I don't draw it, drawing Elspeth is usually more than enough. I could be wrong though.
Izzet Charm is legitimate indeed. Gets under 3/4-CMC planeswalker. Blast an early X/2 to preserve your life total and ensure you reach the late game, and you feel like a genius if you counter a spell with Izzet Charm in the control mirror. Especially if you're still holding a "real" counterspell like Dissolve/Counterflux afterward. The looting effect is solid for thickening the roux following a Sphinx's.
Feel like this list can close out a game pretty quickly compared to the stock UW list. Assemble takes over games if they go unchecked. And having burn to close out a game before things start to get out of hand is wonderful. Played some matches last night, and I had a couple of games where I swung in with some tokens and then hit my opponent with burn for lethal.
Warleader's Helix sometimes felt like Detention Sphere 5-7. Played against a G/R deck and it took care of Xenagos in a couple of matches. Took out an Ajani in another match with token damage + Warleader's. It's not really that great in the control mirror in game one, but I really like this card everywhere else.
I love Counterflux. Had some control mirrors where I was ahead, and my opponent would try to toy with my board somehow to draw out a counterspell. In games like that, you can sit on a Counterflux and know that they won't stick an Aetherling to turn the game around. You just sit on an answer.
Are there any glaring issues with my deck, or cards that I've overlooked? Wanting to make sure that my list is solid before I go and play a GPT, which I'm guessing should be fairly competitive.
2 things I'd suggest off the top are drop quicken and divination for a 2nd turn/burn and perhaps a shock or strike.
The only things I'm not in love with in your list is the Quicken in the main which should probably be some sort of cheap burn like was already suggested and I don't really care for the Blind Obedience all that much. I would switch that out for basically anything else that helps shore up your troublesome matchups. Overall, a pretty solid list I believe.
Oh, and one Assemble is fine. Like you said you don't want to draw a lot of them and it's sort of like a Hero's Downfall proof Elspeth. So yeah, thumbs up there.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Heading out to FNM here soon. Just wanted to stop by and wish everyone playing tonight good luck. Though, I don't think we need it as we're playing one of the better decks in the field, I think
I'll try and take some notes against notable matchups as long as they aren't complete stompings to share here later.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Heading out to FNM here soon. Just wanted to stop by and wish everyone playing tonight good luck. Though, I don't think we need it as we're playing one of the better decks in the field, I think
I'll try and take some notes against notable matchups as long as they aren't complete stompings to share here later.
Good luck, comrade. I'll be sure to take notes on my own games tonight as well.
Well, didn't do so hot last night, fellas. Went 2-2 before dropping. I've been recovering from ACL repair surgery all this week so it started getting to me in the later rounds, but I don't know how much that has to do with it.
Round 1 vs kind of a janky Boros deck.
Newer player that didn't present much of a challenge. Stomped him game one, but had a bit of a nailbiter mull to five in game two. Ripped a Revelation that I could cast for five while I was on one life and the game turned in my favor from there. Nothing much to write about here.
Round 2 vs Red Devotion splashing white.
Didn't realize he was devotion until game two. Game one he went turn 1 Cackler, turn 2 Cackler, turn 3 Phoenix, turn 4 Reckoner. Meanwhile I mull to 6 and proceed to find nothing but a mountain and two temples with a hand full of blue cards. Womp. Game two my keep seemed awesome. Temple, Steam Vents, island, Shock, Chained, Last Breath, Detention Sphere. Everything goes as planned and I'm untapping on turn four at 16. Brick on land. I now have two Helixes and a Ral Zarek in hand. Brick again and draw verdict. Meanwhile my opponent has played reckoner and a Chandra. Long story short, I end up having to Helix Chandra and then finish her with Ral. I go to one and have to use Ral to get my second white for verdict. My opponent bricks for a turn and I draw a Revelation! I mainphase it so I can do it for four and draw Elspeth, Izzet Charm, another Revelation, and I think another verdict. My opponent rips stormbreath and sends me back to one. On my turn I end up deciding to play Elspeth and -3, leaving Charm up. If I can get one more turn I think I can start winning, but he draws Boros Charm for the win. Definitely a heartbreaker, but no worries. It was kind of a tough match and my deck decided not to show up entirely so, meh.
Round 3 vs GR Devotion.
Not much to write here. Charm and Dissolve take the wind out of his planeswalker sails and a verdict or two later and we're on to game two. He gets a real fast draw and I don't have good answers for his creatures and I get run over. Game three is much like game one except he is a little stuck on mana. Ended up winning without too much trouble.
Round 4 vs Jund.
This played out very similarly to the GR Devotion round in games one and two. Game three I had to make some tough choices on when to wrath his dudes because I was a bit short on mana and I didn't want to leave an opening for a planeswalker to resolve. I eventually decide ibhave to wrath while I'm at 7 and only have two mana and Izzet Charm available. I smelled an Underworld Cerberus and sure enough he had it. I don't find a non-verdict answer and lost to it in two turns. I was able to counter the first two, but the third one did me in.
This is where I dropped.
I think I ended up just getting a bit unlucky with having to mulligan as much as I did (almost every game. I think only twice I didn't have to) and being so short on mana in a few games. Had I not missed so many land drops I think I could have won just about every game so I may try to squeeze one more land in somewhere.
Not the best night, but I still had fun. Anyone else have better results last night/today?
Round 1 I went up against Mono-Red. Won the high roll, which was obviously good for me. My opponent mulled to five on G1 and it wasn't much of a game. Second game I mull to six and he gets some big threats and I simply don't have answers to his guys. Third game I get a lot of the removal that I sided in. Izzet Charm takes out a small dude, he commits two Ash Zealot and I get rid of them with Detention Sphere, and Warleader's Helix keeps me far out of reach. 1-0.
Round 2 I play a single game against Mono-Black Devotion. Judge comes up before the match and apparently the poor guy did his decklist wrong (was short a card), and I started the match up one game. This was a pretty comfortable game for me. He gets out Underworld Connections, which I hit with a Sphere, and he gets out a Whip of Erebos, which I have another Sphere for. He doesn't really get out anything else that's that threatening. I get a Jace, Architect of Thought out. He gets me to 8 health with a few creatures, but I'm able to handle them with sweepers/removal and stablize, and Jace takes over until I get an Aetherling. Seems like a pretty easy matchup as long as you can handle their enchantments. Game two would've been tough if he brought in more Thoughtseize/Duress, so I'm pretty lucky that I didn't have to play one. 2-0
Round 3 was against a W/B midrange deck. Sort of feel like I won the first game because she had a lot of dead cards against me. Lifebane Zombie came up a couple of times and didn't really do her much good. Thoughtseize, however, kept me off of counters/removal, and I had to Syncopate a Sin Collector. Sphere was great here again, taking care of a Connections, and Jace AoT takes over as I remove her dudes. Game 2 was way grindier. I got key cards plucked by Seize/Collector (countermagic, Elspeth), but I was still able to find answers for her more troublesome cards. Hit an Obzedat, Ghost Council with Essence Scatter. Turn // Burn did work against some of her larger guys. Handled smaller guys with sweepers, Helix, etc. Sphinx's in response to a Thoughtseize at one point in the game. AoT did a lot of work in this game as well, keeping me up on card advantage. Finally won it off the back of a Jace, Memory Adept, after she blew up two Elspeths and an Assemble the Legion. 3-0.
Round 4 I just draw to go 3-0-1 and go into top 8 with the second seed.
I get blown out in the top 8 match. Opponent is playing G/W Aggro. Which is a deck that I have a lot of trouble with. Soldier of Pantheon can't be hit with Charms. Voice of Resurgence is all kinds of problems. Flash cards like Boon Satyr/Advent of the Wurm get there after a sweeper. They have Rootbound Defenses to troll us. Not really sure what to do in this matchup. I got destroyed in about 10 minutes. In both games he gets back-to-back Wurms and I just get melted into a pile of bloody wizard meat.
Would've loved to have the byes going into GP Dallas, but I got a decent chunk of store credit for my troubles. Still, I really like this deck. Has a lot of game against the midrange strategies, pretty good game against aggro, and it's reasonable in the control mirror.
Round 1 I went up against Mono-Red. Won the high roll, which was obviously good for me. My opponent mulled to five on G1 and it wasn't much of a game. Second game I mull to six and he gets some big threats and I simply don't have answers to his guys. Third game I get a lot of the removal that I sided in. Izzet Charm takes out a small dude, he commits two Ash Zealot and I get rid of them with Detention Sphere, and Warleader's Helix keeps me far out of reach. 1-0.
Round 2 I play a single game against Mono-Black Devotion. Judge comes up before the match and apparently the poor guy did his decklist wrong (was short a card), and I started the match up one game. This was a pretty comfortable game for me. He gets out Underworld Connections, which I hit with a Sphere, and he gets out a Whip of Erebos, which I have another Sphere for. He doesn't really get out anything else that's that threatening. I get a Jace, Architect of Thought out. He gets me to 8 health with a few creatures, but I'm able to handle them with sweepers/removal and stablize, and Jace takes over until I get an Aetherling. Seems like a pretty easy matchup as long as you can handle their enchantments. Game two would've been tough if he brought in more Thoughtseize/Duress, so I'm pretty lucky that I didn't have to play one. 2-0
Round 3 was against a W/B midrange deck. Sort of feel like I won the first game because she had a lot of dead cards against me. Lifebane Zombie came up a couple of times and didn't really do her much good. Thoughtseize, however, kept me off of counters/removal, and I had to Syncopate a Sin Collector. Sphere was great here again, taking care of a Connections, and Jace AoT takes over as I remove her dudes. Game 2 was way grindier. I got key cards plucked by Seize/Collector (countermagic, Elspeth), but I was still able to find answers for her more troublesome cards. Hit an Obzedat, Ghost Council with Essence Scatter. Turn // Burn did work against some of her larger guys. Handled smaller guys with sweepers, Helix, etc. Sphinx's in response to a Thoughtseize at one point in the game. AoT did a lot of work in this game as well, keeping me up on card advantage. Finally won it off the back of a Jace, Memory Adept, after she blew up two Elspeths and an Assemble the Legion. 3-0.
Round 4 I just draw to go 3-0-1 and go into top 8 with the second seed.
I get blown out in the top 8 match. Opponent is playing G/W Aggro. Which is a deck that I have a lot of trouble with. Soldier of Pantheon can't be hit with Charms. Voice of Resurgence is all kinds of problems. Flash cards like Boon Satyr/Advent of the Wurm get there after a sweeper. They have Rootbound Defenses to troll us. Not really sure what to do in this matchup. I got destroyed in about 10 minutes. In both games he gets back-to-back Wurms and I just get melted into a pile of bloody wizard meat.
Would've loved to have the byes going into GP Dallas, but I got a decent chunk of store credit for my troubles. Still, I really like this deck. Has a lot of game against the midrange strategies, pretty good game against aggro, and it's reasonable in the control mirror.
Sorry to hear about the Quarterfinals, but otherwise sounds like a good day. Congrats
As far as GW is concerned I think you're decently set up against them. Counters are actually fine against them if you can keep Voice from getting too out of control. Anger seems good against the small guys. If you just cast the Burn half of Turn // Burn it is only a red card so it can kill Soldier of the Pantheon. Seeing as how you have a Memory Adept main, you may be able to drop one from the side for a Dispel which I think is actually not bad against them. Hits Defenses (or Ready // Willing if they play that), Selesnya Charm, and Advent of the Wurm. You may even be able to fit in another one in the board if there was a card that underperformed. It would give you help in the control matchups too.
Hopefully that gives some helpful advice
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
I've found that Ratchet Bomb is increasingly useful against our worst matchups or against some strong decks in the format. I think I might fit 2 into the sideboard from now on.
Hey guys, haven't really posted here at all, but I've been playing American since January of this year. I love the colors, and won't stop playing it even if it's not entirely viable. Here's the list that I'm currently running:
This list is very similar to Soorani's list bar a couple changes.
1. 3 of Izzet Charm, 3 of Azorius Charm. I think Azorius Charm is still incredibly strong, and I can't see ever bringing it down below 3. However, I believe Izzet Charm is one of the key factors of what separates good ole American from Esper and UW. Being able to nuke an attacker early, nuke a mana dork, counter an on curve Planeswalker, or sift through lands after a Revelation make it one of the strongest two mana spells we have access to.
2. My mana base is ever so slightly geared towards red for the two Angers I have in the sideboard. I have yet to fail to hit double white by fourth land drop or double red by third land drop. I still can't wait for those UW and UR scry lands.
3. Sideboard contains 2 Angers and 2 Counterflux, for the aggro/midrange and control match ups respectively. I believe Anger in the sideboard for aggro and GR monsters has been a real positive force. Against aggro, being able to verdict a turn early against Barely Boros or RDW is worth the two spot. Against GR monsters, it kills all their dorks, and in many cases have won me the game just by virtue of the fact that they get behind on their mana base.
Everything else is about the same. At FNM last night, I went 5-0, splitting in the Finals. Overall, I dropped 1 game, going 10-1. Here's my report.
Round 1
Izzet Pyromancer (Homebrew)
2-0
Not the hardest match up in the least, but it definitely took the longest. Got stuck on 3 lands for several turns both games, but there's not much Izzet Pyromancer can really do against our deck. There's pretty much nothing to fear from Pyromancer, Spellheart, or Guttersnipe with our removal package. I end up winning both games very convincingly, except for the fact that we almost went to time.
Round 2
Wr Aggro (Barely Boros)
2-0
Game 1, he curves out and deals 9 damage by my fourth turn. Verdict, Jace, and a Helix bring me up to speed. He spends a Boros Charm and a BtE to knock out my Jace, only for me to play another one the turn after.
Game 2 went in a similar fashion, as I Izzet Charm his Precinct Captain and Anger to kill both his Soldier of the Pantheons. I land another Helix on turn 4, and then an Assemble on turn 5. From that point on it was smooth sailing.
Round 3
RDW (Beatdown Variety)
2-0
Game 1, he drops on curve very well, but an Izzet Charm keeps him at bay until I can Verdict. He's left with 2 cards, and I have 2 Helixs in my hand. I end up winning with Assemble.
Game 2 was definitely a sight to be seen, and is one of the reasons I advocate Trading Post to the maximum. My opponent Foundry Street Denizens on turn 1, draws his second mountain on turn 2, and begins to drop 3 Burning-Trees to swing for 4 with Denizen. He swings for another 7 the turn after, but I had a D-Sphere for the Burning Trees on my turn 3. He whittles me down with Denizen when I finally draw and throw down my Trading Post. I was sitting at 4 life, worried about a lightning strike + shock combo. With 5 mana open, I decide to discard an Azorius Charm to gain 4 life. He responds with double Shock, which I respond with a Sphinx's for 1. The most unbelievable of exchanges, and I barely end up on top. From there, Trading Post gained me at least 16 life, plus the life I would have lost if I didn't block his Firedrinker Satyr with the good ole goats. I end up winning with Elspeth beats.
The format for this FNM was 3 rounds of swiss, cut to top 8. I ended up being seeded 3rd, and began my Quarter Final match.
Quarter Final
Junk Midrange
Game 1 could have gone horribly wrong, but I managed to luck my way out of a loss. I answered his Voice with a D-Sphere, and only took 2 damage from it. He had Caryatid on the field, and managed to eek out a Blood Baron. With no Verdict, Elspeth, or Turn and Burn in sight, I cantrip Azorius Charm at the end of his turn and draw a land. Draw for turn, another land. I play my land for the turn, and cantrip my second Azorius Charm into a Verdict. Huge sigh of relief there. Two turns later, he plays another Blood Baron. I Sphinx at the end of his turn and end up with double Izzet Charm. Not the most efficient, but hey, It's a Blood Baron; gotta get rid of it somehow! He top decks and plays an Obzedat, but I have a Dissolve waiting for him, as well as Assemble beats to win me the first game.
Game 2 did not go so well, as I couldn't draw my answers fast enough. He plays a turn two Voice, and beats me twice with it. I D-Sphere it, which he Golgari Charms at the end of his turn. After Angering his Voice, he plays Blood Baron, which admittedly I should have let the Voice continue to beat on me while leaving counter magic up for him. The turn after, he resolves Obzedat as well, and that's the end of that story.
Game 3 looks very bleak, as he begins with a turn 2 Thoughtseize. The cards I had in my hand were 2 lands, Sphinx's, Helix, Elspeth, and Assemble. He takes the Assemble, which leads me to believe he didn't have Golgari Charm in hand. I D-Sphere his Voice, and scry from Temple to see the 6th land I would need to throw down Elspeth. Turn 5, he Duress's me with Elspeth, Helix, and Sphinx's in hand. I knew that the top card of my library was the land I would need to Elspeth next turn, so I Sphinx for 1 in response, which triggers my opponents Voice. He hits the Warleader's with Duress, and swings for 6 damage with Blood Baron and Voice. Next turn I draw into an Izzet Charm, and decide to +1 Elspeth instead of getting rid of Blood Baron with her -3. He swings all at Elspeth, I block the Voice, the Voice token, and the Blood Baron. He plays a Sylvan Caryatid and passes. Main Phase 1 of my turn, I Izzet Charm his Voice, which triggers another token. I then -3 Elspeth to get rid of both Voice Tokens (Who were 4/4's at the time), and the Blood Baron. Unfortunately, I wasn't out of the woods yet. He Obzedat's the next turn, who proceeds to gain him a ton of life, slowly dwindling me down. I stall with Azorius Charms and Elspeth Tokens, until I finally draw a Turn/Burn to get rid of him. I finally end up winning with Elspeth and Aetherling beats. This was by far my toughest game throughout the night.
Semi-Final
GW Aggro
2-0
These games were very uninteresting compared to the last. I had the Azorius Charms ready for his Advents, I had the Verdicts and Helix's for his Smiters and Fleecemanes, and I countered both Boon Satyr's that came out. I wish I had more to report for this match up, but I was not worried in the least. Our removal package is great at dealing with all of their creatures, and GW can't deal with our win cons.
Overall, the night went great, even though it was very aggro heavy. Some general notes about the deck:
1. Although I didn't see any that night, our matchup against mono U devotion is great, in my opinion. Izzet Charm isn't great, but D-Sphere, Azorius Charm, Verdict, Helix, you name it; we have the answers for everything they have. We also have the answer to Thassa in the form of Turn/Burn.
2. We have the edge against aggro in the form of our Verdict + Helix package. Izzet Charm also helps greatly here.
3. I believe our matchup with GR Monsters and GR Devotion isn't that bad with the Izzet Charms. A lot of the times, I end up Izzet Charming a Domri and Helixing/D-Sphere-ing the Xenagos before they can start generating some steam. Although Stormbreath is still a huge problem, Verdict + Turn/Burn + Elspeth will hit it, which isn't the worst. Helix can help offset the damage that Stormbreath throws out as well.
4. Esper is definitely a rough match up, but it's not as bad as people would make it out to be. Again, Izzet Charm can do wonders, not only with countering, but forcing your opponent to spend 2 mana he or she definitely does not want to be spending to pay for Izzet Charm. This often times leaves you open to lay down your Aetherling, Elspeth, etc. if they end up paying for the Charm. Post board, we even up the match up so it's not a complete nightmare.
5. I really think I need to make room in my SB for the 4th Helix. It has been doing so much work for me ever since I started using it in UWR Flash, and it has never been more relevant than now. I'll have to decide what I want to take out for it, because it's great in so many match ups.
I've yet to try the deck at any high profile tournament, but I really think that UWr will have its time to shine very soon. Sorry for the wall of text, thanks for reading, and please let me know if you have any questions or comments about the deck!
I have been playing UW and preboard Esper is not nonfavourable. I see 2 additional threats (Assemble), 3 less counterspells, 3 more half-counterspells (Izzet Charm). Three hard counterspells less than UW is rough, but, in case main deck Dissolves become Countrerfluxes how would that change it, in your opinion?
As some people say, you don't have to counter anything but Aetherling, which you in theory can do undisputed in that case, and izzet charms are nice vs Revelation.
Helixes are a big edition since they kill Jace instant speed.
Also how often would have Flames of the Firebrand been worse than Anger of the Gods from the sideboard?
Also
How did you block Baron with the Elspeth token?
1. The only reason I don't like the mainboard Counterflux is because UUR can sometimes be tough to have on turn 3, and I also miss the Scry, which is so crucial when you don't have access to two out of the three possible Scry lands. Against the Esper and UW match up though, it would definitely be strong. Maybe when the next set comes out, it'd be more viable.
2. Flames of the Firebrand would only have been worse against Junk and GW for the Voice, and RG for the Caryatid. Otherwise, I think it would have been a suitable replacement.
3. Sorry! I read my notes wrong, it seems. Blood Baron was swinging at me instead of Elspeth.
Ive been playing a UWR control variant on Cockatrice, and with great success, except against: Esper Control!!
How do you justify playing UWR over Esper? It seems to me that they just have a better answer for nearly everything. And added disruption.
My bane - thoughtseize, sin collector, hero's downfall.
These three ruin me.
Against creature heavy metas' we do great; can sweep away with anger, mizzium, verdict, cycloninc rift even, but getting rid of planeswalkers and Aetherling is HARD. (also Obzedat and Reaper of the Wilds)
So I guess Im looking for reassurance that this is a viable control deck and that I shouldnt just switch out red for black..
Ive been playing a UWR control variant on Cockatrice, and with great success, except against: Esper Control!!
How do you justify playing UWR over Esper? It seems to me that they just have a better answer for nearly everything. And added disruption.
My bane - thoughtseize, sin collector, hero's downfall.
These three ruin me.
Against creature heavy metas' we do great; can sweep away with anger, mizzium, verdict, cycloninc rift even, but getting rid of planeswalkers and Aetherling is HARD. (also Obzedat and Reaper of the Wilds)
So I guess I'm looking for reassurance that this is a viable control deck and that I shouldn't just switch out red for black..
Depressed lol.
IMHO, I believe Sin Collector and Thoughtsieze are gonna be your only problematic cards. Heroes Downfall is pretty easy to play around. Red gets you the best hard counter in standard right now, I don't feel it is even that hard on the mana. You also get an additional sweeper that helps in Devotion matches, as well as aggro matches. You get access to Chain to the Rocks and Warleader's Helix.
What does your list look like? I ended changing somethings from my list to adding a bit more to the counter-suite. I did drop 1x Azorious Charm for 1xIzzet Charm.
Esper Matchup isn't that bad of a matchup, no worse than mono-black with counters.
What does your list look like? I ended changing somethings from my list to adding a bit more to the counter-suite. I did drop 1x Azorious Charm for 1xIzzet Charm.
Esper Matchup isn't that bad of a matchup, no worse than mono-black with counters.
This is one version ive been trialing - previously ran Assemble the Legion in place of the Charms as extra WinCons. Still a work in progress, and im new to Control so please dont be too harsh...
Render Silent - brilliant - stops decks dead. Buys me time. Awesome.
Swap out Essence scatter for Negate in control matchup or maybe Magma Jet against real quick weenies.
Memory Adept was for card draw, and a wincon. Will test Architect in his place as that seems to be the go-to guy in control.
I did get stuck on mana against esper, he just pulled away with land, then dropped Aetherling. Hard matchup for me so far...
Played a couple of tourneys at local stores over the week. Went 3-0-1 on Monday and 3-0-1 yesterday. Which means that my luck will probably run out at GP Dallas and I'll get bodied. But I'll go over what I played yesterday, as my memory on the Monday tourney is a bit hazy. I went with the following list.
Played against Rakdos Aggro in the first round. He didn't have any higher-end beaters like Stormbreath Dragon or Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch. Lots of smaller dudes, Rakdos Shred-Freak, Spike Jester, etc, that he'd pump with Madcap Skills. Burned me down pretty low in the first game. Dealt with a pair of Shred-Freaks with Turn // Burn and Izzet Charm, and then a Jester with Madcap got me low. Got the Jester with a Warleader's Helix, played an Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and stabilized from there. The second game started the same way. He dropped some dudes, turned them sideways, got me pretty low, I dealt with them. Except this time he hit me with a massive Rakdos's Return, and I didn't have anything to counter it with. Mainly because I sided out my Dissolves. Game three was a repeat of game one, and Rakdos's Return didn't make itself seen, thankfully. 1-0
Actually played against a list similar to this one on Monday. Our removal is pretty good here. Sweepers to wipe out small armies, and the cheaper burn (Turn // Burn, Izzet Charm) works wonders in the matchup. Helix is also a monster, as the lifegain often puts you out of their reach.
Played against Mono-Blue Devotion in the second round. Guy curved out pretty nicely. Cloudfin Raptor into Frostburn Weird into Thassa, God of the Sea. He didn't curve up into a Master of Waves. Swept his guys to get him off of devotion, and I hit his Thassa with a Detention Sphere. He plays another Thassa, gets her online with a Bident of Thassa and more creatures. I'm able to Turn // Burn his Thassa (thanks M14), and I get an Elspeth online and take over the game. The second game is pretty similar, except I made a massive mistake. Got to a point in the game where I had Elspeth out, and he's taken a bit of damage, and I had Sphinx's. He was tapped out so I decided to #YOLO and mainphase a Sphinx's before he drew another counter. He had one card in his hand, which should've been obvious, but not to me, so he windmill slams an Aetherling. I'm able to punch damage through with tokens over the next few turns though, and I exact him with Warleader's Helix. Thank you, based reach. 2-0
Played against R/G Beatdown in the third round. I just Detention Sphere everything. Domri Rade? Nope. Xenagos, the Reveler? Sorry, little homie. Removed some stuff, Jace and Elspeth teamed up to save my life, -3'd Elspeth to bust a Stormbreath Dragon/s skull, and I won with soldiers. Second game he played a bunch of creatures that I couldn't deal with and I simply die. Third game was similar to the first, except I was able to Pithing Needle a Domri, which always feels good. Stabilized with Planeswalkers and won it from there.
After this week, some stray observations.
I am fine with Assemble the Legion as a 1-of. I win most of my games with Elspeth, and I'd much rather draw her over Aetherling or Assemble in most cases.
I'm not sure about the 3 Izzet Charms. They've performed well for me in a lot of matches, but I almost want to drop one for something a little meatier. Not sure what though.
Warleader's Helix is amazing.
Wanting to drop Anger of the Gods to a 1-of in the side. It's a lot narrower than I thought. It shines against decks that pack smaller creatures, but not so great when your opponent is throwing Stormbreaths and Loxodon Smiters at you. I might swap one out for a second Mizzium Mortars
I think I want to drop the Lightning Strike for a Blind Obedience. Turns off Whip of Erebos. Gives us time against Mistcutter, Xenagos tokens, Ash Zealot, Stormbreath, Shred-Freak, Spike Jester, Mogis's Maruader. There aren't too many aggro matchups that this card is bad in.
I should probably side in Ratchet Bomb in when I play green decks and set it to 1 counter, because I hate Mistcutter Hydrathat much.
Do you guys think it is worth anything to run off-colored scry-lands? Ia am running 2xTemple of Mystery. Trying it out in place of Guildgates. I think the scry could be relevant. I'm gonna test it out during our Wednesday event.
Do you guys think it is worth anything to run off-colored scry-lands? Ia am running 2xTemple of Mystery. Trying it out in place of Guildgates. I think the scry could be relevant. I'm gonna test it out during our Wednesday event.
No, right now we have to live with 4 on color ones.
planning on playing the GP Vienna this weekend with UWR Control.
Not settled on my 75 though, still some choices to make and I'd love to hear you guys opinion on the deck as is + open for suggestions.
First off, this is what my deck currently looks like
No, right now we have to live with 4 on color ones.
Agreed. Our mana isn't too terrible for a three-color deck, but I don't think you can afford to play off-color scry lands just for marginal gain. That slows us down too much, IMO.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
planning on playing the GP Vienna this weekend with UWR Control.
Not settled on my 75 though, still some choices to make and I'd love to hear you guys opinion on the deck as is + open for suggestions.
First off, this is what my deck currently looks like
Cards to evaluate:
- Chained to the Rocks
- Last Breath
- Divination
- Aetherling
- Magma Jet
- Finishers?
Open for questions / suggestions / critique
Thanks
Aetherling *MUST* be a 2-of somewhere in the 75, I prefer 1-1. That is your ONLY reliable wincon in the control mirror, and you need to make sure you get it.
Aetherling *MUST* be a 2-of somewhere in the 75, I prefer 1-1. That is your ONLY reliable wincon in the control mirror, and you need to make sure you get it.
I absolutely agree here. 2 Ætherling is a must.
I Izzet Charm but 4 might be a bit much. It can become useless as a counter later in the game especially once they start playing around it. It's biggest strength is that it isn't on most people's radar currently. I usually only want to see 1-2 per game so I would suggest 2-3.
Gainsay is a nifty card but we have access to a trump card other control decks don't: Counterflux. This is the final say any in any counter war and far superior to gainsay. Only costing 2 cmc is nice for decks without R, but being able to say no once and for all is worth the extra mana.
Cards to evaluate:
- Chained to the Rocks
- Last Breath
- Divination
- Aetherling
- Magma Jet
- Finishers?
-You would have to adjust your mana-base to add Chained to the Rocks. It is a great removal spell but you will need to add at least 2 basic mountains. If you go this route I would suggest considering Anger of the Gods in the SB since you will be leaning heavier on R.
-I used Magma Jet at first as a 4-of MB. Then i went down to 2. Then 2 SB. Now I don't use them at all. The scry is nice but I prefer the flexibility of Izzet Charm for my weenie removal (Cause that is all it is good for as a jet to the face isn't going to win us any games.)
-Divination can help when you get stuck on 3 lands. Unfortunately I think it fights for a spot with Jace. Once we have all 3 scrylands it won't even be up for discussion most likely.
-Last Breath is a great removal spell and since we don't care about their life total early game its great SB material. Neatly deals with Chandra's Phoenix and Voice. Not sure what to remove for it.
Potential SB cuts:
- I'm not a fan of Ratchet Bomb. Verdict takes care of creatures and Wear // Tear takes care of most other things.
-Planar Cleansing, while a great answer to PWs, is a little slow and hard to cast. I typically end up using D-Sphere or Helix to remove PWs. Plus, Cleansing interacts poorly with D-Sphere.
I Izzet Charm but 4 might be a bit much. It can become useless as a counter later in the game especially once they start playing around it. It's biggest strength is that it isn't on most people's radar currently. I usually only want to see 1-2 per game so I would suggest 2-3.
Gainsay is a nifty card but we have access to a trump card other control decks don't: Counterflux. This is the final say any in any counter war and far superior to gainsay. Only costing 2 cmc is nice for decks without R, but being able to say no once and for all is worth the extra mana.
-You would have to adjust your mana-base to add Chained to the Rocks. It is a great removal spell but you will need to add at least 2 basic mountains. If you go this route I would suggest considering Anger of the Gods in the SB since you will be leaning heavier on R.
-I used Magma Jet at first as a 4-of MB. Then i went down to 2. Then 2 SB. Now I don't use them at all. The scry is nice but I prefer the flexibility of Izzet Charm for my weenie removal (Cause that is all it is good for as a jet to the face isn't going to win us any games.)
-Divination can help when you get stuck on 3 lands. Unfortunately I think it fights for a spot with Jace. Once we have all 3 scrylands it won't even be up for discussion most likely.
-Last Breath is a great removal spell and since we don't care about their life total early game its great SB material. Neatly deals with Chandra's Phoenix and Voice. Not sure what to remove for it.
Potential SB cuts:
- I'm not a fan of Ratchet Bomb. Verdict takes care of creatures and Wear // Tear takes care of most other things.
-Planar Cleansing, while a great answer to PWs, is a little slow and hard to cast. I typically end up using D-Sphere or Helix to remove PWs. Plus, Cleansing interacts poorly with D-Sphere.
Ratchet Bomb is a must against any deck utilizing Mistcutter because that card just says you lose if they properly play it. Think of it as Banefire on steroids. Uncounterable, protection, haste, and sticks around, though usually one hit is usually enough to kill you assuming they did some damage early game and you didn't draw 2-3+ Warleader's Helix's. Even then the only removal we have that can get rid of it later in the game is Supreme Verdict (or Chained to the Rocks if you play it) that we usually use earlier in the game to keep them off Devotion.
Being able to keep ratchet bomb on 1 to deal with Mistcutter is pretty essential and almost every green deck is playing 3-4 of these guys.
Ratchet Bomb is a must against any deck utilizing Mistcutter because that card just says you lose if they properly play it. Think of it as Banefire on steroids. Uncounterable, protection, haste, and sticks around, though usually one hit is usually enough to kill you assuming they did some damage early game and you didn't draw 2-3+ Warleader's Helix's. Even then the only removal we have that can get rid of it later in the game is Supreme Verdict (or Chained to the Rocks if you play it) that we usually use earlier in the game to keep them off Devotion.
Being able to keep ratchet bomb on 1 to deal with Mistcutter is pretty essential and almost every green deck is playing 3-4 of these guys.
That's a good point. If they cast it for x= 5+ then we don't have any way to dispatch it at instant speed.
Though at sorcery, Elspeth and Verdict can destroy it. Plus Assemble can chump all day. Since they will have to have 6+ mana for this it shouldn't be that difficult.
I might try and fit a single ratchet bomb in my sb.
Aetherling *MUST* be a 2-of somewhere in the 75, I prefer 1-1. That is your ONLY reliable wincon in the control mirror, and you need to make sure you get it.
yeah thought of it for quite some time, but slotwise it seems more like aetherling vs. assemble the legion, and to be honest: i like assemble a LOT more in almost any matchups
I Izzet Charm but 4 might be a bit much. It can become useless as a counter later in the game especially once they start playing around it. It's biggest strength is that it isn't on most people's radar currently. I usually only want to see 1-2 per game so I would suggest 2-3.
Gainsay is a nifty card but we have access to a trump card other control decks don't: Counterflux. This is the final say any in any counter war and far superior to gainsay. Only costing 2 cmc is nice for decks without r, but being able to say no once and for all is worth the extra mana.
i can see myself cutting one izzet charm, but its just so currently. i always want one in my opener. later in game i mostly cycle away some cards to strenghten my hand, but maybe going to 3 is okay.
@counterflux: i dont want to overload on counters. i expect less esper/uw at the GP and i think 3-4 charms, 3 gainsay + 2 dissipate should be enough, as i am more the active the player vs. esper/uw
-Last Breath is a great removal spell and since we don't care about their life total early game its great SB material. Neatly deals with Chandra's Phoenix and Voice. Not sure what to remove for it.
good point. didnt think of phoenix and voice, i primarly had mutavault in mind .. but it seems there should be room for 2 in my side
-Planar Cleansing, while a great answer to PWs, is a little slow and hard to cast. I typically end up using D-Sphere or Helix to remove PWs. Plus, Cleansing interacts poorly with D-Sphere.
planar cleansing was mostly for the GR devotion matchup, but i never tested it out. you made the point with d-sphere, plus i have my own walkers and needle from my sideboard with makes cleansing strictly worse
-You would have to adjust your mana-base to add Chained to the Rocks. It is a great removal spell but you will need to add at least 2 basic mountains. If you go this route I would suggest considering Anger of the Gods in the SB since you will be leaning heavier on
i used to have 2 chain in my maindeck with only 8 mountain-lands until i recognized turn//burn being the better card overall. i mean, okay i played 2 divination that time too but i never had problems casting it. it wasnt supposed to be a turn 1/2 removal, so having a mountain in play by turn 5-7 wasn't that difficult. i simply abandoned the card because i didnt deal with problematic creatures (stormbreath dragon, blood baron) plus i can be removed (red decks having the 2R destroy mountain card)
Summary // Questions:
- Do we need a 4th Warleaders Helix in SB?
- What do you think about Serenity Angel as a 1-of SB Slot?
- How do you feel about Aetherling vs. Assemble? Is it more of "vs" or do you think there can be an "&"?
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2 things I'd suggest off the top are drop quicken and divination for a 2nd turn/burn and perhaps a shock or strike.
Oh, and one Assemble is fine. Like you said you don't want to draw a lot of them and it's sort of like a Hero's Downfall proof Elspeth. So yeah, thumbs up there.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
I'll try and take some notes against notable matchups as long as they aren't complete stompings to share here later.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Good luck, comrade. I'll be sure to take notes on my own games tonight as well.
Just for reference, my list as it stands atm:
1 Aetherling
2 Assemble'
3 Detention sphere
3 Jace, architect
2 Elspeth, sun's champion
3 Dissolve
2 Essence Scatter
2 Izzet Charm
2 Lightning Strike
2 Turn // Burn
3 Warleader's Helix
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Azorius Guildgate
1 Izzet Guildgate
2 Mountains
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Precinct Capt
2 Counterflux
2 Negate
1 Aetherling
1 Wear // Tear
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Urg I cant remember
2x Azorius Charm
2x Dissolve
1x Syncopate
1x Essence Scatter
1x Izzet Charm
2x Shock
3x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Turn / Burn
3x Warleader's Helix
Enchantment (6)
2x Assemble the Legion
4x Detention Sphere
Land (26)
4x Hallowed Fountain
6x Island
1x Mountain
3x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Steam Vents
4x Temple of Triumph
Planeswalker (6)
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4x Jace, Architect of Thought
Creature (1)
1x AEtherling
1x AEtherling
2x Counterflux
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Negate
2x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Warleader's Helix
1x Wear / Tear
Round 1 vs kind of a janky Boros deck.
Newer player that didn't present much of a challenge. Stomped him game one, but had a bit of a nailbiter mull to five in game two. Ripped a Revelation that I could cast for five while I was on one life and the game turned in my favor from there. Nothing much to write about here.
Round 2 vs Red Devotion splashing white.
Didn't realize he was devotion until game two. Game one he went turn 1 Cackler, turn 2 Cackler, turn 3 Phoenix, turn 4 Reckoner. Meanwhile I mull to 6 and proceed to find nothing but a mountain and two temples with a hand full of blue cards. Womp. Game two my keep seemed awesome. Temple, Steam Vents, island, Shock, Chained, Last Breath, Detention Sphere. Everything goes as planned and I'm untapping on turn four at 16. Brick on land. I now have two Helixes and a Ral Zarek in hand. Brick again and draw verdict. Meanwhile my opponent has played reckoner and a Chandra. Long story short, I end up having to Helix Chandra and then finish her with Ral. I go to one and have to use Ral to get my second white for verdict. My opponent bricks for a turn and I draw a Revelation! I mainphase it so I can do it for four and draw Elspeth, Izzet Charm, another Revelation, and I think another verdict. My opponent rips stormbreath and sends me back to one. On my turn I end up deciding to play Elspeth and -3, leaving Charm up. If I can get one more turn I think I can start winning, but he draws Boros Charm for the win. Definitely a heartbreaker, but no worries. It was kind of a tough match and my deck decided not to show up entirely so, meh.
Round 3 vs GR Devotion.
Not much to write here. Charm and Dissolve take the wind out of his planeswalker sails and a verdict or two later and we're on to game two. He gets a real fast draw and I don't have good answers for his creatures and I get run over. Game three is much like game one except he is a little stuck on mana. Ended up winning without too much trouble.
Round 4 vs Jund.
This played out very similarly to the GR Devotion round in games one and two. Game three I had to make some tough choices on when to wrath his dudes because I was a bit short on mana and I didn't want to leave an opening for a planeswalker to resolve. I eventually decide ibhave to wrath while I'm at 7 and only have two mana and Izzet Charm available. I smelled an Underworld Cerberus and sure enough he had it. I don't find a non-verdict answer and lost to it in two turns. I was able to counter the first two, but the third one did me in.
This is where I dropped.
I think I ended up just getting a bit unlucky with having to mulligan as much as I did (almost every game. I think only twice I didn't have to) and being so short on mana in a few games. Had I not missed so many land drops I think I could have won just about every game so I may try to squeeze one more land in somewhere.
Not the best night, but I still had fun. Anyone else have better results last night/today?
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
1 AEtherling
Spells
1 Syncopate
2 Azorius Charm
1 Essence Scatter
2 Izzet Charm
2 Turn // Burn
3 Dissolve
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Warleader's Helix
Enchantments
4 Detention Sphere
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Manas
2 Azorius Guildgate
4 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
1 Izzet Guildgate
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Wear // Tear
1 Blind Obedience
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Negate
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Counterflux
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 AEtherling
Round 1 I went up against Mono-Red. Won the high roll, which was obviously good for me. My opponent mulled to five on G1 and it wasn't much of a game. Second game I mull to six and he gets some big threats and I simply don't have answers to his guys. Third game I get a lot of the removal that I sided in. Izzet Charm takes out a small dude, he commits two Ash Zealot and I get rid of them with Detention Sphere, and Warleader's Helix keeps me far out of reach. 1-0.
Round 2 I play a single game against Mono-Black Devotion. Judge comes up before the match and apparently the poor guy did his decklist wrong (was short a card), and I started the match up one game. This was a pretty comfortable game for me. He gets out Underworld Connections, which I hit with a Sphere, and he gets out a Whip of Erebos, which I have another Sphere for. He doesn't really get out anything else that's that threatening. I get a Jace, Architect of Thought out. He gets me to 8 health with a few creatures, but I'm able to handle them with sweepers/removal and stablize, and Jace takes over until I get an Aetherling. Seems like a pretty easy matchup as long as you can handle their enchantments. Game two would've been tough if he brought in more Thoughtseize/Duress, so I'm pretty lucky that I didn't have to play one. 2-0
Round 3 was against a W/B midrange deck. Sort of feel like I won the first game because she had a lot of dead cards against me. Lifebane Zombie came up a couple of times and didn't really do her much good. Thoughtseize, however, kept me off of counters/removal, and I had to Syncopate a Sin Collector. Sphere was great here again, taking care of a Connections, and Jace AoT takes over as I remove her dudes. Game 2 was way grindier. I got key cards plucked by Seize/Collector (countermagic, Elspeth), but I was still able to find answers for her more troublesome cards. Hit an Obzedat, Ghost Council with Essence Scatter. Turn // Burn did work against some of her larger guys. Handled smaller guys with sweepers, Helix, etc. Sphinx's in response to a Thoughtseize at one point in the game. AoT did a lot of work in this game as well, keeping me up on card advantage. Finally won it off the back of a Jace, Memory Adept, after she blew up two Elspeths and an Assemble the Legion. 3-0.
Round 4 I just draw to go 3-0-1 and go into top 8 with the second seed.
I get blown out in the top 8 match. Opponent is playing G/W Aggro. Which is a deck that I have a lot of trouble with. Soldier of Pantheon can't be hit with Charms. Voice of Resurgence is all kinds of problems. Flash cards like Boon Satyr/Advent of the Wurm get there after a sweeper. They have Rootbound Defenses to troll us. Not really sure what to do in this matchup. I got destroyed in about 10 minutes. In both games he gets back-to-back Wurms and I just get melted into a pile of bloody wizard meat.
Would've loved to have the byes going into GP Dallas, but I got a decent chunk of store credit for my troubles. Still, I really like this deck. Has a lot of game against the midrange strategies, pretty good game against aggro, and it's reasonable in the control mirror.
Sorry to hear about the Quarterfinals, but otherwise sounds like a good day. Congrats
As far as GW is concerned I think you're decently set up against them. Counters are actually fine against them if you can keep Voice from getting too out of control. Anger seems good against the small guys. If you just cast the Burn half of Turn // Burn it is only a red card so it can kill Soldier of the Pantheon. Seeing as how you have a Memory Adept main, you may be able to drop one from the side for a Dispel which I think is actually not bad against them. Hits Defenses (or Ready // Willing if they play that), Selesnya Charm, and Advent of the Wurm. You may even be able to fit in another one in the board if there was a card that underperformed. It would give you help in the control matchups too.
Hopefully that gives some helpful advice
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]Slivers (Overlord as general)BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]
BMono Black (Xiahou Dun as general)B
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Azorius Guildgate
1 Izzet Guildgate
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Creatures
1 Aetherling
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Enchantments
4 Detention Sphere
2 Assemble the Legion
Instants/Sorceries
2 Turn/Burn
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Azorius Charm
3 Izzet Charm
3 Dissolve
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Aetherling
2 Negate
2 Counterflux
2 Pithing Needle
1 Turn/Burn
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Wear/Tear
1 Trading Post
This list is very similar to Soorani's list bar a couple changes.
1. 3 of Izzet Charm, 3 of Azorius Charm. I think Azorius Charm is still incredibly strong, and I can't see ever bringing it down below 3. However, I believe Izzet Charm is one of the key factors of what separates good ole American from Esper and UW. Being able to nuke an attacker early, nuke a mana dork, counter an on curve Planeswalker, or sift through lands after a Revelation make it one of the strongest two mana spells we have access to.
2. My mana base is ever so slightly geared towards red for the two Angers I have in the sideboard. I have yet to fail to hit double white by fourth land drop or double red by third land drop. I still can't wait for those UW and UR scry lands.
3. Sideboard contains 2 Angers and 2 Counterflux, for the aggro/midrange and control match ups respectively. I believe Anger in the sideboard for aggro and GR monsters has been a real positive force. Against aggro, being able to verdict a turn early against Barely Boros or RDW is worth the two spot. Against GR monsters, it kills all their dorks, and in many cases have won me the game just by virtue of the fact that they get behind on their mana base.
Everything else is about the same. At FNM last night, I went 5-0, splitting in the Finals. Overall, I dropped 1 game, going 10-1. Here's my report.
Round 1
Izzet Pyromancer (Homebrew)
2-0
Not the hardest match up in the least, but it definitely took the longest. Got stuck on 3 lands for several turns both games, but there's not much Izzet Pyromancer can really do against our deck. There's pretty much nothing to fear from Pyromancer, Spellheart, or Guttersnipe with our removal package. I end up winning both games very convincingly, except for the fact that we almost went to time.
Round 2
Wr Aggro (Barely Boros)
2-0
Game 1, he curves out and deals 9 damage by my fourth turn. Verdict, Jace, and a Helix bring me up to speed. He spends a Boros Charm and a BtE to knock out my Jace, only for me to play another one the turn after.
Game 2 went in a similar fashion, as I Izzet Charm his Precinct Captain and Anger to kill both his Soldier of the Pantheons. I land another Helix on turn 4, and then an Assemble on turn 5. From that point on it was smooth sailing.
Round 3
RDW (Beatdown Variety)
2-0
Game 1, he drops on curve very well, but an Izzet Charm keeps him at bay until I can Verdict. He's left with 2 cards, and I have 2 Helixs in my hand. I end up winning with Assemble.
Game 2 was definitely a sight to be seen, and is one of the reasons I advocate Trading Post to the maximum. My opponent Foundry Street Denizens on turn 1, draws his second mountain on turn 2, and begins to drop 3 Burning-Trees to swing for 4 with Denizen. He swings for another 7 the turn after, but I had a D-Sphere for the Burning Trees on my turn 3. He whittles me down with Denizen when I finally draw and throw down my Trading Post. I was sitting at 4 life, worried about a lightning strike + shock combo. With 5 mana open, I decide to discard an Azorius Charm to gain 4 life. He responds with double Shock, which I respond with a Sphinx's for 1. The most unbelievable of exchanges, and I barely end up on top. From there, Trading Post gained me at least 16 life, plus the life I would have lost if I didn't block his Firedrinker Satyr with the good ole goats. I end up winning with Elspeth beats.
The format for this FNM was 3 rounds of swiss, cut to top 8. I ended up being seeded 3rd, and began my Quarter Final match.
Quarter Final
Junk Midrange
Game 1 could have gone horribly wrong, but I managed to luck my way out of a loss. I answered his Voice with a D-Sphere, and only took 2 damage from it. He had Caryatid on the field, and managed to eek out a Blood Baron. With no Verdict, Elspeth, or Turn and Burn in sight, I cantrip Azorius Charm at the end of his turn and draw a land. Draw for turn, another land. I play my land for the turn, and cantrip my second Azorius Charm into a Verdict. Huge sigh of relief there. Two turns later, he plays another Blood Baron. I Sphinx at the end of his turn and end up with double Izzet Charm. Not the most efficient, but hey, It's a Blood Baron; gotta get rid of it somehow! He top decks and plays an Obzedat, but I have a Dissolve waiting for him, as well as Assemble beats to win me the first game.
Game 2 did not go so well, as I couldn't draw my answers fast enough. He plays a turn two Voice, and beats me twice with it. I D-Sphere it, which he Golgari Charms at the end of his turn. After Angering his Voice, he plays Blood Baron, which admittedly I should have let the Voice continue to beat on me while leaving counter magic up for him. The turn after, he resolves Obzedat as well, and that's the end of that story.
Game 3 looks very bleak, as he begins with a turn 2 Thoughtseize. The cards I had in my hand were 2 lands, Sphinx's, Helix, Elspeth, and Assemble. He takes the Assemble, which leads me to believe he didn't have Golgari Charm in hand. I D-Sphere his Voice, and scry from Temple to see the 6th land I would need to throw down Elspeth. Turn 5, he Duress's me with Elspeth, Helix, and Sphinx's in hand. I knew that the top card of my library was the land I would need to Elspeth next turn, so I Sphinx for 1 in response, which triggers my opponents Voice. He hits the Warleader's with Duress, and swings for 6 damage with Blood Baron and Voice. Next turn I draw into an Izzet Charm, and decide to +1 Elspeth instead of getting rid of Blood Baron with her -3. He swings all at Elspeth, I block the Voice, the Voice token, and the Blood Baron. He plays a Sylvan Caryatid and passes. Main Phase 1 of my turn, I Izzet Charm his Voice, which triggers another token. I then -3 Elspeth to get rid of both Voice Tokens (Who were 4/4's at the time), and the Blood Baron. Unfortunately, I wasn't out of the woods yet. He Obzedat's the next turn, who proceeds to gain him a ton of life, slowly dwindling me down. I stall with Azorius Charms and Elspeth Tokens, until I finally draw a Turn/Burn to get rid of him. I finally end up winning with Elspeth and Aetherling beats. This was by far my toughest game throughout the night.
Semi-Final
GW Aggro
2-0
These games were very uninteresting compared to the last. I had the Azorius Charms ready for his Advents, I had the Verdicts and Helix's for his Smiters and Fleecemanes, and I countered both Boon Satyr's that came out. I wish I had more to report for this match up, but I was not worried in the least. Our removal package is great at dealing with all of their creatures, and GW can't deal with our win cons.
Overall, the night went great, even though it was very aggro heavy. Some general notes about the deck:
1. Although I didn't see any that night, our matchup against mono U devotion is great, in my opinion. Izzet Charm isn't great, but D-Sphere, Azorius Charm, Verdict, Helix, you name it; we have the answers for everything they have. We also have the answer to Thassa in the form of Turn/Burn.
2. We have the edge against aggro in the form of our Verdict + Helix package. Izzet Charm also helps greatly here.
3. I believe our matchup with GR Monsters and GR Devotion isn't that bad with the Izzet Charms. A lot of the times, I end up Izzet Charming a Domri and Helixing/D-Sphere-ing the Xenagos before they can start generating some steam. Although Stormbreath is still a huge problem, Verdict + Turn/Burn + Elspeth will hit it, which isn't the worst. Helix can help offset the damage that Stormbreath throws out as well.
4. Esper is definitely a rough match up, but it's not as bad as people would make it out to be. Again, Izzet Charm can do wonders, not only with countering, but forcing your opponent to spend 2 mana he or she definitely does not want to be spending to pay for Izzet Charm. This often times leaves you open to lay down your Aetherling, Elspeth, etc. if they end up paying for the Charm. Post board, we even up the match up so it's not a complete nightmare.
5. I really think I need to make room in my SB for the 4th Helix. It has been doing so much work for me ever since I started using it in UWR Flash, and it has never been more relevant than now. I'll have to decide what I want to take out for it, because it's great in so many match ups.
I've yet to try the deck at any high profile tournament, but I really think that UWr will have its time to shine very soon. Sorry for the wall of text, thanks for reading, and please let me know if you have any questions or comments about the deck!
1. The only reason I don't like the mainboard Counterflux is because UUR can sometimes be tough to have on turn 3, and I also miss the Scry, which is so crucial when you don't have access to two out of the three possible Scry lands. Against the Esper and UW match up though, it would definitely be strong. Maybe when the next set comes out, it'd be more viable.
2. Flames of the Firebrand would only have been worse against Junk and GW for the Voice, and RG for the Caryatid. Otherwise, I think it would have been a suitable replacement.
3. Sorry! I read my notes wrong, it seems. Blood Baron was swinging at me instead of Elspeth.
Ive been playing a UWR control variant on Cockatrice, and with great success, except against: Esper Control!!
How do you justify playing UWR over Esper? It seems to me that they just have a better answer for nearly everything. And added disruption.
My bane - thoughtseize, sin collector, hero's downfall.
These three ruin me.
Against creature heavy metas' we do great; can sweep away with anger, mizzium, verdict, cycloninc rift even, but getting rid of planeswalkers and Aetherling is HARD. (also Obzedat and Reaper of the Wilds)
So I guess Im looking for reassurance that this is a viable control deck and that I shouldnt just switch out red for black..
Depressed lol.
IMHO, I believe Sin Collector and Thoughtsieze are gonna be your only problematic cards. Heroes Downfall is pretty easy to play around. Red gets you the best hard counter in standard right now, I don't feel it is even that hard on the mana. You also get an additional sweeper that helps in Devotion matches, as well as aggro matches. You get access to Chain to the Rocks and Warleader's Helix.
What does your list look like? I ended changing somethings from my list to adding a bit more to the counter-suite. I did drop 1x Azorious Charm for 1xIzzet Charm.
Esper Matchup isn't that bad of a matchup, no worse than mono-black with counters.
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
This is one version ive been trialing - previously ran Assemble the Legion in place of the Charms as extra WinCons. Still a work in progress, and im new to Control so please dont be too harsh...
Render Silent - brilliant - stops decks dead. Buys me time. Awesome.
Swap out Essence scatter for Negate in control matchup or maybe Magma Jet against real quick weenies.
Memory Adept was for card draw, and a wincon. Will test Architect in his place as that seems to be the go-to guy in control.
I did get stuck on mana against esper, he just pulled away with land, then dropped Aetherling. Hard matchup for me so far...
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Detention Sphere
3 Syncopate
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Essence Scatter
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Jace, Memory Adept
4 Render Silent
2 Dissolve
2 Celestial Flare
2 Azorius Guildgate
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Mutavault
1 AEtherling
Spells
1 Syncopate
2 Azorius Charm
1 Essence Scatter
3 Izzet Charm
2 Turn // Burn
3 Dissolve
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Warleader's Helix
Enchantments
4 Detention Sphere
1 Assemble the Legion
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Manas
2 Azorius Guildgate
4 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
1 Izzet Guildgate
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Wear // Tear
1 Lightning Strike
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Negate
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Counterflux
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 AEtherling
Played against Rakdos Aggro in the first round. He didn't have any higher-end beaters like Stormbreath Dragon or Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch. Lots of smaller dudes, Rakdos Shred-Freak, Spike Jester, etc, that he'd pump with Madcap Skills. Burned me down pretty low in the first game. Dealt with a pair of Shred-Freaks with Turn // Burn and Izzet Charm, and then a Jester with Madcap got me low. Got the Jester with a Warleader's Helix, played an Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and stabilized from there. The second game started the same way. He dropped some dudes, turned them sideways, got me pretty low, I dealt with them. Except this time he hit me with a massive Rakdos's Return, and I didn't have anything to counter it with. Mainly because I sided out my Dissolves. Game three was a repeat of game one, and Rakdos's Return didn't make itself seen, thankfully. 1-0
Actually played against a list similar to this one on Monday. Our removal is pretty good here. Sweepers to wipe out small armies, and the cheaper burn (Turn // Burn, Izzet Charm) works wonders in the matchup. Helix is also a monster, as the lifegain often puts you out of their reach.
Played against Mono-Blue Devotion in the second round. Guy curved out pretty nicely. Cloudfin Raptor into Frostburn Weird into Thassa, God of the Sea. He didn't curve up into a Master of Waves. Swept his guys to get him off of devotion, and I hit his Thassa with a Detention Sphere. He plays another Thassa, gets her online with a Bident of Thassa and more creatures. I'm able to Turn // Burn his Thassa (thanks M14), and I get an Elspeth online and take over the game. The second game is pretty similar, except I made a massive mistake. Got to a point in the game where I had Elspeth out, and he's taken a bit of damage, and I had Sphinx's. He was tapped out so I decided to #YOLO and mainphase a Sphinx's before he drew another counter. He had one card in his hand, which should've been obvious, but not to me, so he windmill slams an Aetherling. I'm able to punch damage through with tokens over the next few turns though, and I exact him with Warleader's Helix. Thank you, based reach. 2-0
Played against R/G Beatdown in the third round. I just Detention Sphere everything. Domri Rade? Nope. Xenagos, the Reveler? Sorry, little homie. Removed some stuff, Jace and Elspeth teamed up to save my life, -3'd Elspeth to bust a Stormbreath Dragon/s skull, and I won with soldiers. Second game he played a bunch of creatures that I couldn't deal with and I simply die. Third game was similar to the first, except I was able to Pithing Needle a Domri, which always feels good. Stabilized with Planeswalkers and won it from there.
After this week, some stray observations.
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
No, right now we have to live with 4 on color ones.
BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]Slivers (Overlord as general)BU[MANA]G[/MANA]W[MANA]R[/MANA]
BMono Black (Xiahou Dun as general)B
planning on playing the GP Vienna this weekend with UWR Control.
Not settled on my 75 though, still some choices to make and I'd love to hear you guys opinion on the deck as is + open for suggestions.
First off, this is what my deck currently looks like
MANABASE
4 Steam Vents
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
6 Island
4 Plains
MAINBOARD
3 Azorius Charm
4 Izzet Charm
2 Dissolve
4 Detention Sphere
3 Warleaders Helix
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Turn // Burn
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Sphinx Revelation
SIDEBOARD
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Gainsay
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratched Bomb
1 Wear // Tear
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Negate
1 Planar Cleansing
Cards to evaluate:
- Chained to the Rocks
- Last Breath
- Divination
- Aetherling
- Magma Jet
- Finishers?
Open for questions / suggestions / critique
Thanks
Agreed. Our mana isn't too terrible for a three-color deck, but I don't think you can afford to play off-color scry lands just for marginal gain. That slows us down too much, IMO.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Aetherling *MUST* be a 2-of somewhere in the 75, I prefer 1-1. That is your ONLY reliable wincon in the control mirror, and you need to make sure you get it.
I absolutely agree here. 2 Ætherling is a must.
I Izzet Charm but 4 might be a bit much. It can become useless as a counter later in the game especially once they start playing around it. It's biggest strength is that it isn't on most people's radar currently. I usually only want to see 1-2 per game so I would suggest 2-3.
Gainsay is a nifty card but we have access to a trump card other control decks don't: Counterflux. This is the final say any in any counter war and far superior to gainsay. Only costing 2 cmc is nice for decks without R, but being able to say no once and for all is worth the extra mana.
-You would have to adjust your mana-base to add Chained to the Rocks. It is a great removal spell but you will need to add at least 2 basic mountains. If you go this route I would suggest considering Anger of the Gods in the SB since you will be leaning heavier on R.
-I used Magma Jet at first as a 4-of MB. Then i went down to 2. Then 2 SB. Now I don't use them at all. The scry is nice but I prefer the flexibility of Izzet Charm for my weenie removal (Cause that is all it is good for as a jet to the face isn't going to win us any games.)
-Divination can help when you get stuck on 3 lands. Unfortunately I think it fights for a spot with Jace. Once we have all 3 scrylands it won't even be up for discussion most likely.
-Last Breath is a great removal spell and since we don't care about their life total early game its great SB material. Neatly deals with Chandra's Phoenix and Voice. Not sure what to remove for it.
Potential SB cuts:
- I'm not a fan of Ratchet Bomb. Verdict takes care of creatures and Wear // Tear takes care of most other things.
-Planar Cleansing, while a great answer to PWs, is a little slow and hard to cast. I typically end up using D-Sphere or Helix to remove PWs. Plus, Cleansing interacts poorly with D-Sphere.
Ratchet Bomb is a must against any deck utilizing Mistcutter because that card just says you lose if they properly play it. Think of it as Banefire on steroids. Uncounterable, protection, haste, and sticks around, though usually one hit is usually enough to kill you assuming they did some damage early game and you didn't draw 2-3+ Warleader's Helix's. Even then the only removal we have that can get rid of it later in the game is Supreme Verdict (or Chained to the Rocks if you play it) that we usually use earlier in the game to keep them off Devotion.
Being able to keep ratchet bomb on 1 to deal with Mistcutter is pretty essential and almost every green deck is playing 3-4 of these guys.
That's a good point. If they cast it for x= 5+ then we don't have any way to dispatch it at instant speed.
Though at sorcery, Elspeth and Verdict can destroy it. Plus Assemble can chump all day. Since they will have to have 6+ mana for this it shouldn't be that difficult.
I might try and fit a single ratchet bomb in my sb.
yeah thought of it for quite some time, but slotwise it seems more like aetherling vs. assemble the legion, and to be honest: i like assemble a LOT more in almost any matchups
i can see myself cutting one izzet charm, but its just so currently. i always want one in my opener. later in game i mostly cycle away some cards to strenghten my hand, but maybe going to 3 is okay.
@counterflux: i dont want to overload on counters. i expect less esper/uw at the GP and i think 3-4 charms, 3 gainsay + 2 dissipate should be enough, as i am more the active the player vs. esper/uw
good point. didnt think of phoenix and voice, i primarly had mutavault in mind .. but it seems there should be room for 2 in my side
planar cleansing was mostly for the GR devotion matchup, but i never tested it out. you made the point with d-sphere, plus i have my own walkers and needle from my sideboard with makes cleansing strictly worse
i used to have 2 chain in my maindeck with only 8 mountain-lands until i recognized turn//burn being the better card overall. i mean, okay i played 2 divination that time too but i never had problems casting it. it wasnt supposed to be a turn 1/2 removal, so having a mountain in play by turn 5-7 wasn't that difficult. i simply abandoned the card because i didnt deal with problematic creatures (stormbreath dragon, blood baron) plus i can be removed (red decks having the 2R destroy mountain card)
Summary // Questions:
- Do we need a 4th Warleaders Helix in SB?
- What do you think about Serenity Angel as a 1-of SB Slot?
- How do you feel about Aetherling vs. Assemble? Is it more of "vs" or do you think there can be an "&"?