Just a note that I picked up the deck on Friday after a couple weeks of being on the BW midrange deck. Luckily I learned that the black based decks might not be too great because they really can't one for one forever and they really rely on the opponent getting bad draws while the GR deck was very consistent as I tested it a little through Saturday night. Now onto the matches.
Round 1. Esper - Game 1 : Pretty simple, just curved very nicely into Domris, Xenagos, Dragon and ended the game by ultimating Domri while he was left to watch. Game 2 : Curved pretty well got him to around 8 or so when he wipes my board I play Dragon and next his turn he plays Obzedat and BB and I end the game with a Ghor Clanned Dragon. 1-0
Round 2. Esper - Game 1: I mull to 5 and can't get enough gas to kill his ashiok and he kills me with her. Game 2 : First turn draw burning tree. Second Draw, draw burning tree. Third draw, yep you guessed it, burning tree. Suffice it to say I didn't get even close to enough early pressure to dismantle an early ashiok into a blood baron. 1-1
Round 3. GR - He is basically running the same list I am, save maybe a Polukranos main, I honestly can't remember. Game 1 - I manage to play conservatively, and pick apart his game plan with a couple Domris and well timed mortars while sticking a couple of my dragons into the Fray to take the first game. Again get an early lead with some Domri and Xenagos action, while sticking down a Polukranos to fight an Ember Swallower. I slam down a couple dragons and take the match. 2-1
Round 4. Esper - Game 1 : I curve nicely and remove his Ashiok before he can get it online. He can't keep up with the pressure I put on him and quickly concedes. Game 2: Curve nicely again into double burning tree ooze and even though he wipes my board I put on the pressure and end up taking the match on the back of the Ruric Thar and Garruk. 3-1
Round 5. MBC - Game 1 : He tried to make some plays with Erebos and Gray merchant, but a horde of aggressives creatures combo'd with some removal ended his plans very quickly. Game 2 : He got land screwed and I took the match. 4-1
Round 6. GR - Game 1 : He was on the play and I had a pretty easy time, as I managed to take out his domri and mana dorks as he was setting his army up. A couple hits with the dragon coming down and some early pressure gave me the edge in this first game Game 2 : He was on the play and unfortunately for me I couldn't get enough gas to keep up with his flood of dorks and other creatures. Game 3: A very back and forth game where I fumble and don't kill his Zhur-Ta Druid with my Domri Rade even though I have two more in hand. I'm stuck with my first Domri all game unable to get rid of them while he amasses a horde of creatures and even though I think I can manage against his assault with a Chandra and Domri and three dragons, he slams down an Arbor Colossus to hold the fort and kill my dragons and then slam into me for the match win. 4-2
Round 7. Jund - Basically GR splashing black for more removal, Return, and Demon. Game 1 : I take game 1 easily off the back of triple scavenging ooze against his double scavenging ooze. Game 2 : He gets an early demon and I can't keep up. Game 3 : He plays an early ooze, which I take care of. I get a burning tree and hedonist and monstrous an Ember Swallower on turn 5 leaving him with 2 land a demon and a Caryatid. He leaves his demon back and I draw a Ghor Clan. He is at 8 and he blocks with the caryatid on the swallower, and I ghor clan for the win. 5-2
Round 8. GW - A more of a token GW deck, rather than the aggressive high curve deck. Game 1 : I Game 2 : I completely underestimate a turn two wayfaring temple into turn three advent and him landing an attack with the temple, populating his wurm tokens. He has three tokens in play while I have three lands and a couple burning trees. Game 3 : I play very conservatively, only attacking with the dragon at turn 4 even though we have an equal board presence. I monstrous the dragon for exactly enough to take the match. 6-2
Round 9. GW - Game 1 : Get some early aggression going with an early burning-tree emissary into Domri. He puts down voice and a lion and I take care of the lion while ignoring the voice. Get through game one without worrying about voice and just playing strong creatures while he can't find an advent. Game 2 : A very back and forth game while I'm ignoring his voices and he's attempting to keep up. He slams a Gideon turn 4 and I eat it with a Ghor-Clanned Dragon. I attack a few more times with dragon to take the match because he couldn't find an answer. 7-2
Round 10. Draw - I'm at 24th place. My opponent sits down and I ask for a draw, the math was that there were only 4 people with 19 points and only 4-8 people that could pass us so at worst we could get 32 and 31st. He agrees and we go on our way to wait for our cash. Overall very good experience. 7-2-1
Throughout the entire day, hedonist was a pretty big all star getting down early dragons and early monstrous triggers while serving as early aggression and early defense. I don't think I'd remove much of the cards to really make this deck a better contender. Maybe taking out a Swallower for a Polukranos that could be it. Also I felt as though Burning Earth didn't have as much impact as I wanted. Maybe because it didn't have as much impact as last standard, I'd probably take one of those out in the board. Chandra was really amazing every time I casted her and makes me want to put a one of main. Xenagos was really good and served very well as a card that was important in every single match up. He could make creatures if I needed him, ramp up if I wanted to put some serious pressure on, and I really never wanted to side him out. Unfortunately looking back at all of the other cards in the deck, he is one of the cards with the lowest impact because he needs creatures to ramp up mana for you and you can two for one yourself by zeroing and making a satyr as your only creature. These are my thoughts about the deck and I'd love to continue discusses how to further improve it. Overall, The deck is very solid and I'm very glad that I chose that over the BW deck that I was on for weeks.
I had been considering running a couple Arbor Colossus in the main even. It seems fairly maindeckable for a 'hate' card. Especially if you've moved Ruric Thar to the main, this card gives you more keyword reach to bring in.
I think most Gruul players would be fairly surprised to only see 22 creatures with Domri Rade.
Thanks for the perspective - especially since it was first hand! I can probably infer why Ross Merriam beat you (quick weenies into Brave the Elements?) - what were the issues in your other losses?
Ruric Thar was definitely good in the main and helped me push a few wins against control. The fact that he's a 6/6 with vigilance makes him good against creature decks too as he is both a strong attacker and a brick wall blocker. Having reach is also super relevant against opposing dragons.
If Kamair's round 6 experience is any indication, Arbor Colossus may be the best mirror breaking card.
Here were my issues with losses:
UW Control: I mulled to 4 game 1 and still almost got there and in game 3 my opponent may have drawn extra cards according to a friend who was watching the match. I obv can't confirm this but this player was later DQ'd for doing the same thing.
WR Aggro: Again I mulled to 4 game 1 and was crushed. Game 3 I think I made a misplay by not sandbagging a Mizzium Mortars until I could overload it and instead using it early on a Banisher Priest to get my Ooze back. I actually think this matchup is pretty even and very winnable especially after SB. Game 2 I got to live the dream with a 3-for-1 Flames of the Firebrand.
Esper Control: I won game 1 after he missed his 4th land drop and couldn't verdict. Games 2 and 3 he had all the answers and killed me by Ashioking one of my dragons in game 2 and milling me with Jace game 3. I also think I kept a weak hand in game 3 and that certainly didn't help me.
I think that this matchup is actually pretty hard and much worse than straight UW. Having access to instant speed removal (Doom Blade, Hero's Downfall, Far // Away) and Thoughtseize along with all the other standard UW stuff makes it very hard. Burning Earth is good in this matchup but as Kamair also noted it just isn't as impactful as it used to be and with cards like Thoughtseize you really can't lean too hard on resolving it as your way to win.
RG Mirror: My opponent was playing fairly different list than the stock Nelson one:
I'm unsure as how my lgs will play like because i could not make it this week, but in my own play testing against a G/W aggro deck everything is fine until Trostani hits. None of my removal can hit it (Mortars is deals the most damage so Trostani doges it).
Once it stats populating Wurm and Vor tokens it gains to much life and I can't deal with it.
Have to agree with FlashLeopard22. As our win condition is thru combat damage, if against defensive and insanely gain life, it is difficult for us to win.
Had my experience against WRB aggro (I think) that runs heavy removals like Hero's Downfall, Dreadbore, Doom Blade and creatures like Rakdos Cackler, Soldier of the Pantheon and Boros Reckoner and supported by Spear of Heliod.
Game 1 : Was a smooth win. I manage to attack with Satyr token to the win while keep on shooting his drop with Flames of the Firebrand. Ruric Thar helps additional 6 damage as he cast Doom Blade on him. All in all, perhaps a poor hand for him as he only have removals in hand and Spear of Heliod in play.
Game 2 : A game that I lost. I can't block his speared Pantheon due to Satyr in play. Not gonna block with Caryatid as I need it and keeps on swinging until 6 life to go, along with Boros Reckoner in play. Later on, manage to drop Xenagos again, and starting to drop Colossus and a few elves for defensive. Next, dropping Garruk to continuously refills my hand. He is on 14 life, after getting 6 from Ruric, I slowly pinging him with two ZTD until down to 6 and few turns later, dropped two Ember Swallowers (different turns) and monstrous with both have no lands, as well as Polukranos, ready to shoot his two Pantheon and Cackler, leaving his Reckoner alone to go up against monsters.
So, which card to drop for needle/ratchet bomb (which I feel is not needed at all, prove me wrong) or are there other cards I really should consider?
Short answer: I would say Anger of the Gods because it disrupts your own game plan too much. Most of your own creatures die to it. I think you are better suited in the red matchups with Shock in the board.
Long answer: There's more room for improvement in the sideboard as a whole. I'm not a huge fan of Ruric Thar or Mistcutter Hydra because it can be tough to build up enough mana to get them online. You have lots of mana bugs, but the matchups where you want these cards, all of them will get swept away with Supreme Verdict.
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming. Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Went 2-2 today..I am at a loss for words... I felt so confident. Anyways...
Boros Aggro - Won 2-0. First game was a bit rough with his spear of heliods destroying my ember swallowers and such. I was able to monstrosity one which did quite a hurting on him, and allowed me to win game 1. Game two i side boarded in two ratchet bombs to take care of his enchantments, Stormbreaths and Domri's fight ability were extremely effective against this deck.
Mono-Red - won 2- 0- Played a turn two Domri, and used its fight ability to keep the board clear on the first match. As soon as I played Polukranos he couldnt do anything. Ended up winning with a stormbreath. Second game he got me down to one life. I was able to wipe his board with an overloaded mizzium for the win.
Esper Control Lost 2-1 :This deck.. I really dont even want to talk about it. The one match I won, I squeaked by with two attacks from a Blood-Rushed 6-6 mistcutter. hydra .Tried it again in the second match and got supreme verdict-ed every time i played it.
Dega Control- Lost 2-1 Games lasted so long, I got tired of wasting my time and conceded.
I really dont know whats going on. Or what the deal is. I seem to do well against aggro decks for the most part.. and by well I mean win.. But control just decimates.
If you have time please look at my list and give me some suggestions. I already made some changes by swapping the ember swallowers for world-eaters, and burning tree emissary for scavenging oozes. Mana was spot on, the deck has just the right amount of removal, and the sylvian caryatids were able to answer EVERYTHING.. that card is absolutely amazing against all match-ups. Boon satyr's were ABSOLUTE GARBAGE! They literally never serve a purpose. There two defense leaves them open for anything and everything, and for 5 mana bestow ill play a freaking stormbreath/worldeater/mistcutter.
If anything, I feel the deck needs to be a tad more aggressive. Any room for experiment ones? I am also considering two chandra pyromasters.
This deck is based on Sam Black's GR Monsters, but I find it is too much ramp until you have less things to ramp on. The trump card of this deck is actually Garruk, CoB. He is a bigger version and better of Domri if you're playing ramp and fatties. Most of the time, +1 will result in drawing 3 creature cards. To me, that's a win already.
As for SB choices, since Desecration Demon is the most tough guy to match with ours, instead of relying on Arbor Colossus or Ruric Thar, it might be too late since the demon might be big then. Deadly Recluse main task is for defensive against huge flyers and could be dropped early. I've tried Plummet but with Garruk in play, I tend to miss Plummet and that's a lost. Gruul Ragebeast is for creature deck or mirror match up. As both trying to race who has the most and bigger dudes, this guy really comes in handy with Garruk's ultimate.
My FNMs go four rounds and how it works is you are guaranteed packs if you win at least 3 rounds.
I went 1-2, Even if I am loosing I stay and play the fourth for practice but I had to get home. I lost to a RDW (same as the one that got 1st in the SCG and to an Esper control). The one game I did win was against some dude's first ever FNM running a really janky mono green.
As mentioned before Reckoner is a real problem for a deck whose only removal involves dealing damage. I wanted to exploit the trample vs reckoner rule but I did not draw any of my 4 Ghor-clans in both games. I had to hold my Stormbreath dragon back in order to block reckoner.
Esper is just crazy. Just sit and take all your attacks untill turn 4 then wrath you. Elspeth just makes dudes to block and then wins with the remaining dudes plus the emblem. Sure your my Experiment one survives the wrath but then i'm left with just a 1/1
I knew the control match was gonna be rough going in to it but I did not think it would be that terrible. Loosing to one top tourny deck I can deal with but loosing to two makes me question whether or not I should run Gruul Midrange.
On Esper: This is obviously public enemy #1 for this deck. I'm trying to find a way to make this matchup more manageable but right now haven't had much luck.
What I've been trying recently is to board in 4x Pithing Needle and 3x Destructive Revelry and hope to set Needles on Aetherling and Elseph so they can't win. Revelry is there to hit their Spheres and Ratchet Bombs if they try to remove the Needles (destroying Sphere is always a great play though even if it isn't on Needle).
But so far in a dozen or so matches this has never happened. I don't know if it's just that I'm not drawing Needles or if this is just a bad plan. I might go back to Burning Earth soon, but that has never been that great either and can't be boarded in against UW.
prepared to be wrong ... but here's my current build ... and it's actually based on some playtesting (only played it 'for fun' at FNM last night but it mostly ran well - I've tuned it a little more based on those games) - I think the metagame is getting a little more diverse based on SCG coverage (though it could just be well produced to make it seem like that) - of course, the pros will show us what we should be doing soon enough
Hammer of Purphoros - I don't see why there's not more discussion about this card on this thread; I love it - reminds of Fires of Yavimaya even more than I thought it would. Kibler Gruul was good because of all the haste and now a lot of it is gone unless you have one of these in play. It also provides a late game mana sink of sorts (though probably not as good of one as Kessig Wolf Run). I won a game against Boros Midrange on the back of making a Golem token every turn for something like 5 turns in a row. I was running a third copy in the sideboard, but I cut it after last night. The match-up where I brought it in I had one stuck in my hand most of the game; I don't see Disenchant effects getting common enough to justify the slot.
Arbor Colossus - started as a budget option that should work well against midrange in this metagame (Desecration Demon, Stormbreath Dragon, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Archangel of Thune to name a few) - was also originally intended to help turn Nylea, God of the Hunt on but the green god's not currently in there yet they remain - I know it may be foolish to play a five drop creature to trump their four/five drop creature when they also have removal, but if they don't have the removal, their threat should get hit with a Plummet effect next turn
Burning-Tree Emissary, Sylvan Caryatid, & Satyr Hedonist - turn two BTE into either of the other two feels pretty good - BTE into Domri Rade and chump/fight or Hammer attack also feels pretty good - I was looking to run Kalonian Tusker as a good two-drop that can both attack and block and would help enable devotion for Nylea but the format seems to be about being fast right now and the dedicated midrange decks should be able to out grind me anyway, so I've basically cut the 3 Tuskers, 1 Scavenging Ooze (from the main), 1 Mizzium Mortars (from the main), and 2 Nylea for the fragile but explosive two-drops for now
Polukranos, World Eater - I pre-ordered these and still haven't arrived yet. Deadbridge Goliath has been a fine replacement. I haven't had two in play at once yet which hopefully means I won't run into many issues with Polukranos being legendary.
Like everyone else on here - I'm just trying to have a reasonable game against both Rx Aggro and UWx Control
prepared to be wrong ... but here's my current build ... and it's actually based on some playtesting (only played it 'for fun' at FNM last night but it mostly ran well - I've tuned it a little more based on those games) - I think the metagame is getting a little more diverse based on SCG coverage (though it could just be well produced to make it seem like that) - of course, the pros will show us what we should be doing soon enough
Hammer of Purphoros - I don't see why there's not more discussion about this card on this thread; I love it - reminds of Fires of Yavimaya even more than I thought it would. Kibler Gruul was good because of all the haste and now a lot of it is gone unless you have one of these in play. It also provides a late game mana sink of sorts (though probably not as good of one as Kessig Wolf Run). I won a game against Boros Midrange on the back of making a Golem token every turn for something like 5 turns in a row. I was running a third copy in the sideboard, but I cut it after last night. The match-up where I brought it in I had one stuck in my hand most of the game; I don't see Disenchant effects getting common enough to justify the slot.
Arbor Colossus - started as a budget option that should work well against midrange in this metagame (Desecration Demon, Stormbreath Dragon, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Archangel of Thune to name a few) - was also originally intended to help turn Nylea, God of the Hunt on but the green god's not currently in there yet they remain - I know it may be foolish to play a five drop creature to trump their four/five drop creature when they also have removal, but if they don't have the removal, their threat should get hit with a Plummet effect next turn
Burning-Tree Emissary, Sylvan Caryatid, & Satyr Hedonist - turn two BTE into either of the other two feels pretty good - BTE into Domri Rade and chump/fight or Hammer attack also feels pretty good - I was looking to run Kalonian Tusker as a good two-drop that can both attack and block and would help enable devotion for Nylea but the format seems to be about being fast right now and the dedicated midrange decks should be able to out grind me anyway, so I've basically cut the 3 Tuskers, 1 Scavenging Ooze (from the main), 1 Mizzium Mortars (from the main), and 2 Nylea for the fragile but explosive two-drops for now
Polukranos, World Eater - I pre-ordered these and still haven't arrived yet. Deadbridge Goliath has been a fine replacement. I haven't had two in play at once yet which hopefully means I won't run into many issues with Polukranos being legendary.
Like everyone else on here - I'm just trying to have a reasonable game against both Rx Aggro and UWx Control
Mono Red and an Esper control is what beat me at my last FNM.
Mono Red it seems to be 50/50 for me. Sometimes they run out of gas and i blow them out and sometimes they have so much gas and they beat you before you can stabilize. (which is understandable cuz that what it was designed to do.) Plus not having a way to kill reckoner without 2 for 1ing you is really annoying.
Bow of Nylea is pretty good against the RDW, my only issue with it is that RDW is the only match up I want it in. It's ability to gain 3 life a turn is almost like negating a hit to the face from a reckoner because in all honesty you don't want to block it. It's deal two damage is great vs the Phoenix because along with Ooze you won't have to worry about it anymore.
I've only dueled with Esper so I have no idea how the just U/W game is. Even so, if you over commit early game they demolish you with Supreme Verdict. If you play the midrange game they beat you with counters and win with either atherling or their planeswalkers.
If any one has had good experiences vs control I'd like to hear about them, because not only is it a hard match up, Personally I feel that I don't know how to play against it.
Has anyone tried out Chandra Pyromancer? I know when I played at the SCG I loved every time I casted her and including her in the main deck has been really great so far in testing.
After some consideration about the meta and thoughts of stream lining the deck to a more midrange style based off of Chris Posperelis's deck from Worcestor, I have reached this deck.
Bow of Nylea is pretty good against the RDW, my only issue with it is that RDW is the only match up I want it in. It's ability to gain 3 life a turn is almost like negating a hit to the face from a reckoner because in all honesty you don't want to block it. It's deal two damage is great vs the Phoenix because along with Ooze you won't have to worry about it anymore.
I could get behind 2 Bow in the sideboard - have considered it as a direct swap for Hammer in games where you're clearly not the beatdown (i.e. nearly mono-R aggro strategies)
I don't know how popular it is, right now, but clearly popular.
None-the-less, welcome to one of the general rules of magic. Control has almost always the bane of midrange.
Last season we had cavern of souls which even if you weren't running it kept the counters down somewhat (Not like U/W/R didn't win worlds but still). On the other hand, thrag even if you didn't play it existed as well as all the undying and recursion so Verdicts weren't as strong overall.
In a bubble what I'm hearing is that you might have a strong deck that is kinda scooping to counters control.
I'd genuinely considering hating them right out. I've done it completely with my green white deck between Flash monsters, Boon Satyr and 4 copies of mistcutter main, and some number of skylashers. Though I'm I'm playing a g/w deck so I have voice also... but I think the great riddle of this deck is ultimately what do you do against control in general.
I can't imagine you guys are doing well against like "the rock" or Black based control either right?
They're monsters are just as huge and they have whip of erebos
I can get behind this deck because well I'm interested vaguely some variant of it for oldtimes sake.
However, the first attempt I'd make to try to fix the problem vs control is finding out if you have enough useful hate cards to attack the stratagem.
I thinking about playing this deck for my states championship, but I'm worried about the control match up. Also how does this deck match up against other midrange decks?
mootown2 : I like your build, almost similar as mine but mine focuses on dropping beaters every turn. As much as I like Hammer of Purphoros (I have 2 of, still thinking whether MB or SB) reminds us of Fires of Yavimaya, I think at the moment it is not as effective. To me, not until we have a some sort Blastoderm or Saproling Burst kind of ability to suit with the haste. Dropping our dudes and attack safely is our main concern since there are lots of counter spells and removal spells around. Like so heavy. Back then, Fires can hold counter decks with Rishadan Port. Holding down 1-2 of their mana allows us to drop the dude safely and steal extra damage each time.
@FlashLeopard22 : Mono red, UW base (either Esper or American Control), and Bx midrange have always been our headache. For mono red, I think I might be using Bow of Nylea in MB rather than Hammer. Easily gets extra GG for my SB Nylea's Disciple, swap with Ember Swallower. Gotta have as much G in it as possible. Esper, American Control and Bx midrange are the main problem. Mistcutter Hydra or Skylasher easly removed with B removal while another option Witchstalker is relatively too small to me. MB Ruric Thar also seems not enough, although at times it just surprises the opponent.
@solarsion : Totally agree with B midrange is our worst nightmare among all. In some rare cases, I could sac my satyr token to tap the demon and steal few damage. Lifelink is another problem since our win condition is only combat based damage. Obzedat, Blood Baron, Whip of Erebos to name a few.
EDIT : I have decided to SB Mistcutter Hydra since he is great against UW control, side by side with Stormbreath Dragon. Still have more test run to go.
Main reason I choose not to run Stomping Ground is that I don't want to give my opponent free damage to myself. Plus, I don't have problems (so far) in mana fixing, so might as well just run basic lands.
A few notes on SB options : Mistcutter Hydra : Obviously against U base deck. Also, I find mono blue fish deck is surprisingly competitive and specially made against RG. Mizzium Mortars : Additional copy in SB against midrange deck. Nylea's Disciple : Substitute Ember Swallower to go against mono red sligh. Ratchet Bomb : A good card that easily eliminate permanents, especially those enchantments and planeswalker. Skullcrack : Another card to go against UW Control, Esper or Bx Midrange that gains life. Usually in my experiences, their life at 5 or simply below 10 then only they start gaining and we lose tempo.
Mh besides that I prefer the faster version with burning-tree emissarys to force earlier verdicts and to have some early blockers against rdw, I have some more fundamental questions: why would you prefer voyaging satyr over sylvan caryatid? Especially since you don't run the shocklands to have 8 duals to untap (why don't you run the shocks anyway?)
But I'm very interested in your results tho, since my approach is struggling against midrange and maybe going even bigger could deal with those. Also I think Garruk is a beast (huehuehue) when you have a more rampy version as seen in the last SCG where monogreen utilized him in a very impressive way.
Could really see him replacing domri at least in the slower variants.
The reason I don't run shocklands is because I'm trying to avoid my opponent to win simply by hitting me with 16-18 damage instead of 20, or I wish to start the game with 20 life, not 18 life. It may sounds kinda stupid but especially against mono red, extra 2-4 damage for them is a lot.
Voyaging Satyr over Sylvan Caryatid is because "Zvi's seven concepts of hypermana deckbuilding" point no. 2
2. You must be able to turn your mana cards into powerful weapons in their own right.
Sometimes it helps that your mana dorks can be attackers against control decks, especially for the first few turns. Also, to put pressure on them to cast their Supreme Verdict, sweeping two mana dorks as attacker rather than sweeping big guys. Although he is vulnerable to single target removal, it just the risk I think I'm going to take.
To be honest, RG aggro version is a very fast deck. It may be a bit slower than mono red, but definitely stronger if to go up against each other. The problem is when your entire board being swept by Supreme Verdict, Anger of the Gods or Mizzium Mortars. It may run out of gas in dealing damage. Another version is GR Monsters ramp type, where I find most of the time I'm lacking of stuff to ramp on. Mono green has the craziest ramp version, with ramping Garruk, CoB and easily drop Worldspine Wurm on T3. So to balance things out, I tune my version to be a midrange-ramp type with continuously dropping beaters and threats.
Voyaging Satyr over Sylvan Caryatid is because "Zvi's seven concepts of hypermana deckbuilding" point no. 2
Sometimes it helps that your mana dorks can be attackers against control decks, especially for the first few turns. Also, to put pressure on them to cast their Supreme Verdict, sweeping two mana dorks as attacker rather than sweeping big guys. Although he is vulnerable to single target removal, it just the risk I think I'm going to take.
Do you really think this is a viable gameplan against a deck that can gain tons of life and refill their hand at will in the late game? To hold back threats and force them to act while you attack with Squire?
if you haven't already, read Valeriy's article on SCG (the free side) - he makes some interesting points; I don't necessarily agree with them all ... I'd like to see some more discussion on here about ...
1. Can we really get away with only 2 Elvish Mystic and move most of the ramp to the two-mana slots?
2. Does Burning-Tree Emissary into two-mana ramp spell pull enough weight to deserve a slot? Keep in mind it also provides some amount of color-fixing on later turns or should it be dropped
4. I couldn't talk people into running 2-3 Thragtusk in the sideboard during last Standard season. This season I don't particulary want Nylea's Disciple as it packs less punch and doesn't leave another body behind after it dies. Am I being foolish and we have to be interested in some incidental life-gain from cards like Disciple or Bow of Nylea in order to survive even though we are supposed to be an aggressive deck?
if you haven't already, read Valeriy's article on SCG (the free side) - he makes some interesting points; I don't necessarily agree with them all ... I'd like to see some more discussion on here about ...
1. Can we really get away with only 2 Elvish Mystic and move most of the ramp to the two-mana slots?
I've considered this, but Turn 2 Domri is extremely powerful and will almost surely lock up the game in itself. It's probably worth testing, but I would be really reluctant to give this up.
2. Does Burning-Tree Emissary into two-mana ramp spell pull enough weight to deserve a slot? Keep in mind it also provides some amount of color-fixing on later turns or should it be dropped
This thought also crossed my mind. But without BTE, you have absolutely no action until you start dropping your big 4-mana ground pounders. Opening with BTE allows you to attack and draw out a Supreme Verdict in the control matchups without having invested so much in your board. And it's still a pretty good card against the red decks because it will block and trade without sacrificing your early game development.
At times though it's true that it doesn't seem to pull it's weight. Again, another valid point that deserves looking into.
Ghor-Clan Rampager is definitely a great card, but in some matchups it shines more than others. I've been running three instead of four and can't think of a single time where I wanted one but didn't have it.
Boon Satyr is also a great card but the problem is that he costs three mana. A lot of the focus of the deck is skipping over three to get to four, so I think he will be slightly suboptimal here. If we're looking for ways to get BTE out of the deck though this might be a replacement. And obviously we're automatically back to 4x Mystic if we have Boon Satyr in the deck.
I don't like Ruric Thar because it's hard for the deck to hit six mana consistently at the times where you really want to be casting one (post Verdict). Or when you finally do, he just gets countered.
Mistcutter I don't have much experience with but I'm going to try it in the board to see if the Esper matchup improves.
Arbor Colossus is right on the fringe, but we already have so many other 4-5 mana cards that it's hard to justify it in the deck. Five toughness is every bit as good as six in this format, so Poluk and Ember Swallower win out for costing one mana less. Stormbreath Dragon has evasion so it can close games, so that too gets the nod over Colossus. After that, what is left to cut? And how many five mana cards can we afford to run?
4. I couldn't talk people into running 2-3 Thragtusk in the sideboard during last Standard season. This season I don't particulary want Nylea's Disciple as it packs less punch and doesn't leave another body behind after it dies. Am I being foolish and we have to be interested in some incidental life-gain from cards like Disciple or Bow of Nylea in order to survive even though we are supposed to be an aggressive deck?
I've been beating red decks by just bringing in Shock to help you stabilize until you can start hitting four drops. They have a very hard time dealing damage to you with a big five toughness guy sitting on the table. I don't particularly like Nylea's Disciple or Bow because they are very mana intensive, and having to take the time to spend mana to do things is something that the red decks are already built to punish you for.
I play Mistcutter mainboard, at least 2 of them, as soon as you're ramped up he's almost unstoppable, past turn 5 or so and you have something to end games with real fast.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59622
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Ember Swallower
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Satyr Hedonist
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands (24)
7 Forest
9 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
Spells (3)
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Burning Earth
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
3 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Mizzium Mortars
Just a note that I picked up the deck on Friday after a couple weeks of being on the BW midrange deck. Luckily I learned that the black based decks might not be too great because they really can't one for one forever and they really rely on the opponent getting bad draws while the GR deck was very consistent as I tested it a little through Saturday night. Now onto the matches.
Round 1. Esper - Game 1 : Pretty simple, just curved very nicely into Domris, Xenagos, Dragon and ended the game by ultimating Domri while he was left to watch. Game 2 : Curved pretty well got him to around 8 or so when he wipes my board I play Dragon and next his turn he plays Obzedat and BB and I end the game with a Ghor Clanned Dragon. 1-0
Round 2. Esper - Game 1: I mull to 5 and can't get enough gas to kill his ashiok and he kills me with her. Game 2 : First turn draw burning tree. Second Draw, draw burning tree. Third draw, yep you guessed it, burning tree. Suffice it to say I didn't get even close to enough early pressure to dismantle an early ashiok into a blood baron. 1-1
Round 3. GR - He is basically running the same list I am, save maybe a Polukranos main, I honestly can't remember. Game 1 - I manage to play conservatively, and pick apart his game plan with a couple Domris and well timed mortars while sticking a couple of my dragons into the Fray to take the first game. Again get an early lead with some Domri and Xenagos action, while sticking down a Polukranos to fight an Ember Swallower. I slam down a couple dragons and take the match. 2-1
Round 4. Esper - Game 1 : I curve nicely and remove his Ashiok before he can get it online. He can't keep up with the pressure I put on him and quickly concedes. Game 2: Curve nicely again into double burning tree ooze and even though he wipes my board I put on the pressure and end up taking the match on the back of the Ruric Thar and Garruk. 3-1
Round 5. MBC - Game 1 : He tried to make some plays with Erebos and Gray merchant, but a horde of aggressives creatures combo'd with some removal ended his plans very quickly. Game 2 : He got land screwed and I took the match. 4-1
Round 6. GR - Game 1 : He was on the play and I had a pretty easy time, as I managed to take out his domri and mana dorks as he was setting his army up. A couple hits with the dragon coming down and some early pressure gave me the edge in this first game Game 2 : He was on the play and unfortunately for me I couldn't get enough gas to keep up with his flood of dorks and other creatures. Game 3: A very back and forth game where I fumble and don't kill his Zhur-Ta Druid with my Domri Rade even though I have two more in hand. I'm stuck with my first Domri all game unable to get rid of them while he amasses a horde of creatures and even though I think I can manage against his assault with a Chandra and Domri and three dragons, he slams down an Arbor Colossus to hold the fort and kill my dragons and then slam into me for the match win. 4-2
Round 7. Jund - Basically GR splashing black for more removal, Return, and Demon. Game 1 : I take game 1 easily off the back of triple scavenging ooze against his double scavenging ooze. Game 2 : He gets an early demon and I can't keep up. Game 3 : He plays an early ooze, which I take care of. I get a burning tree and hedonist and monstrous an Ember Swallower on turn 5 leaving him with 2 land a demon and a Caryatid. He leaves his demon back and I draw a Ghor Clan. He is at 8 and he blocks with the caryatid on the swallower, and I ghor clan for the win. 5-2
Round 8. GW - A more of a token GW deck, rather than the aggressive high curve deck. Game 1 : I Game 2 : I completely underestimate a turn two wayfaring temple into turn three advent and him landing an attack with the temple, populating his wurm tokens. He has three tokens in play while I have three lands and a couple burning trees. Game 3 : I play very conservatively, only attacking with the dragon at turn 4 even though we have an equal board presence. I monstrous the dragon for exactly enough to take the match. 6-2
Round 9. GW - Game 1 : Get some early aggression going with an early burning-tree emissary into Domri. He puts down voice and a lion and I take care of the lion while ignoring the voice. Get through game one without worrying about voice and just playing strong creatures while he can't find an advent. Game 2 : A very back and forth game while I'm ignoring his voices and he's attempting to keep up. He slams a Gideon turn 4 and I eat it with a Ghor-Clanned Dragon. I attack a few more times with dragon to take the match because he couldn't find an answer. 7-2
Round 10. Draw - I'm at 24th place. My opponent sits down and I ask for a draw, the math was that there were only 4 people with 19 points and only 4-8 people that could pass us so at worst we could get 32 and 31st. He agrees and we go on our way to wait for our cash. Overall very good experience. 7-2-1
Throughout the entire day, hedonist was a pretty big all star getting down early dragons and early monstrous triggers while serving as early aggression and early defense. I don't think I'd remove much of the cards to really make this deck a better contender. Maybe taking out a Swallower for a Polukranos that could be it. Also I felt as though Burning Earth didn't have as much impact as I wanted. Maybe because it didn't have as much impact as last standard, I'd probably take one of those out in the board. Chandra was really amazing every time I casted her and makes me want to put a one of main. Xenagos was really good and served very well as a card that was important in every single match up. He could make creatures if I needed him, ramp up if I wanted to put some serious pressure on, and I really never wanted to side him out. Unfortunately looking back at all of the other cards in the deck, he is one of the cards with the lowest impact because he needs creatures to ramp up mana for you and you can two for one yourself by zeroing and making a satyr as your only creature. These are my thoughts about the deck and I'd love to continue discusses how to further improve it. Overall, The deck is very solid and I'm very glad that I chose that over the BW deck that I was on for weeks.
Ruric Thar was definitely good in the main and helped me push a few wins against control. The fact that he's a 6/6 with vigilance makes him good against creature decks too as he is both a strong attacker and a brick wall blocker. Having reach is also super relevant against opposing dragons.
If Kamair's round 6 experience is any indication, Arbor Colossus may be the best mirror breaking card.
Here were my issues with losses:
UW Control: I mulled to 4 game 1 and still almost got there and in game 3 my opponent may have drawn extra cards according to a friend who was watching the match. I obv can't confirm this but this player was later DQ'd for doing the same thing.
WR Aggro: Again I mulled to 4 game 1 and was crushed. Game 3 I think I made a misplay by not sandbagging a Mizzium Mortars until I could overload it and instead using it early on a Banisher Priest to get my Ooze back. I actually think this matchup is pretty even and very winnable especially after SB. Game 2 I got to live the dream with a 3-for-1 Flames of the Firebrand.
Esper Control: I won game 1 after he missed his 4th land drop and couldn't verdict. Games 2 and 3 he had all the answers and killed me by Ashioking one of my dragons in game 2 and milling me with Jace game 3. I also think I kept a weak hand in game 3 and that certainly didn't help me.
I think that this matchup is actually pretty hard and much worse than straight UW. Having access to instant speed removal (Doom Blade, Hero's Downfall, Far // Away) and Thoughtseize along with all the other standard UW stuff makes it very hard. Burning Earth is good in this matchup but as Kamair also noted it just isn't as impactful as it used to be and with cards like Thoughtseize you really can't lean too hard on resolving it as your way to win.
RG Mirror: My opponent was playing fairly different list than the stock Nelson one:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59630
As you can see it's much more aggressive and his early threats plus more removal ran me over. I'd be interested to know how the rest of his day was.
Once it stats populating Wurm and Vor tokens it gains to much life and I can't deal with it.
Had my experience against WRB aggro (I think) that runs heavy removals like Hero's Downfall, Dreadbore, Doom Blade and creatures like Rakdos Cackler, Soldier of the Pantheon and Boros Reckoner and supported by Spear of Heliod.
Game 2 : A game that I lost. I can't block his speared Pantheon due to Satyr in play. Not gonna block with Caryatid as I need it and keeps on swinging until 6 life to go, along with Boros Reckoner in play. Later on, manage to drop Xenagos again, and starting to drop Colossus and a few elves for defensive. Next, dropping Garruk to continuously refills my hand. He is on 14 life, after getting 6 from Ruric, I slowly pinging him with two ZTD until down to 6 and few turns later, dropped two Ember Swallowers (different turns) and monstrous with both have no lands, as well as Polukranos, ready to shoot his two Pantheon and Cackler, leaving his Reckoner alone to go up against monsters.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Short answer: I would say Anger of the Gods because it disrupts your own game plan too much. Most of your own creatures die to it. I think you are better suited in the red matchups with Shock in the board.
Long answer: There's more room for improvement in the sideboard as a whole. I'm not a huge fan of Ruric Thar or Mistcutter Hydra because it can be tough to build up enough mana to get them online. You have lots of mana bugs, but the matchups where you want these cards, all of them will get swept away with Supreme Verdict.
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Ember Swallower
4 Polis Crusher
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Mistcutter Hydra
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Stomping Ground
8 Mountain
7 Forest
4 Temple of Abandon
can't decide with this or my Mono-Red
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming.
Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Originally posted by MemoryLapse and DotMatrix
Boros Aggro - Won 2-0. First game was a bit rough with his spear of heliods destroying my ember swallowers and such. I was able to monstrosity one which did quite a hurting on him, and allowed me to win game 1. Game two i side boarded in two ratchet bombs to take care of his enchantments, Stormbreaths and Domri's fight ability were extremely effective against this deck.
Mono-Red - won 2- 0- Played a turn two Domri, and used its fight ability to keep the board clear on the first match. As soon as I played Polukranos he couldnt do anything. Ended up winning with a stormbreath. Second game he got me down to one life. I was able to wipe his board with an overloaded mizzium for the win.
Esper Control Lost 2-1 :This deck.. I really dont even want to talk about it. The one match I won, I squeaked by with two attacks from a Blood-Rushed 6-6 mistcutter. hydra .Tried it again in the second match and got supreme verdict-ed every time i played it.
Dega Control- Lost 2-1 Games lasted so long, I got tired of wasting my time and conceded.
I really dont know whats going on. Or what the deal is. I seem to do well against aggro decks for the most part.. and by well I mean win.. But control just decimates.
If you have time please look at my list and give me some suggestions. I already made some changes by swapping the ember swallowers for world-eaters, and burning tree emissary for scavenging oozes. Mana was spot on, the deck has just the right amount of removal, and the sylvian caryatids were able to answer EVERYTHING.. that card is absolutely amazing against all match-ups. Boon satyr's were ABSOLUTE GARBAGE! They literally never serve a purpose. There two defense leaves them open for anything and everything, and for 5 mana bestow ill play a freaking stormbreath/worldeater/mistcutter.
If anything, I feel the deck needs to be a tad more aggressive. Any room for experiment ones? I am also considering two chandra pyromasters.
4x Boon Satyr
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Domri Rade
Spells
3x Lightning Strike
3x Mizzium Mortars
Lands
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Stomping Ground
9x Forest
6x Mountain
This is what I am thinking...
4x Boon Satyr
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Experiment One
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Domri Rade
Spells
2x Lightning Strike
2x Mizzium Mortars
Lands
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Stomping Ground
9x Forest
6x Mountain
What you guys recommend?
Ps.: I'm running the stock monster list.
2 Arbor Colossus
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Ember Swallower
4 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Zhur-Taa Druid
2 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands
9 Forest
7 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Deadly Recluse
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Gruul Charm
2 Gruul Ragebeast
3 Peak Eruption
3 Pithing Needle
This deck is based on Sam Black's GR Monsters, but I find it is too much ramp until you have less things to ramp on. The trump card of this deck is actually Garruk, CoB. He is a bigger version and better of Domri if you're playing ramp and fatties. Most of the time, +1 will result in drawing 3 creature cards. To me, that's a win already.
As for SB choices, since Desecration Demon is the most tough guy to match with ours, instead of relying on Arbor Colossus or Ruric Thar, it might be too late since the demon might be big then. Deadly Recluse main task is for defensive against huge flyers and could be dropped early. I've tried Plummet but with Garruk in play, I tend to miss Plummet and that's a lost. Gruul Ragebeast is for creature deck or mirror match up. As both trying to race who has the most and bigger dudes, this guy really comes in handy with Garruk's ultimate.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
I went 1-2, Even if I am loosing I stay and play the fourth for practice but I had to get home. I lost to a RDW (same as the one that got 1st in the SCG and to an Esper control). The one game I did win was against some dude's first ever FNM running a really janky mono green.
As mentioned before Reckoner is a real problem for a deck whose only removal involves dealing damage. I wanted to exploit the trample vs reckoner rule but I did not draw any of my 4 Ghor-clans in both games. I had to hold my Stormbreath dragon back in order to block reckoner.
Esper is just crazy. Just sit and take all your attacks untill turn 4 then wrath you. Elspeth just makes dudes to block and then wins with the remaining dudes plus the emblem. Sure your my Experiment one survives the wrath but then i'm left with just a 1/1
I knew the control match was gonna be rough going in to it but I did not think it would be that terrible. Loosing to one top tourny deck I can deal with but loosing to two makes me question whether or not I should run Gruul Midrange.
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Polukranos, the world eater
2x Ember swallower
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Magma Jet
2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Stomping Ground
4x Temple of Abandon
7x Forest
7x Mountain
1x Rouge's Passage
3x Plummet
3x Burning Earth
2x Ruric Thar, the unbowed
2x Destructive Revelry
3x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Mizzium Mortars
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Burning-tree emissary
4 Boon Satyr
4 Ogre Battledriver
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Rubblehulk
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands: 24
9 Forest
8 Mountain
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Stomping Ground
2 Pithing Needle
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Burning Earth
2 Ruric-Thar, The Unbowed
This is my current decklist. I was thinking about taking out the Rubblehulk for Sylvan Caryatid to better the mana options in my deck. Any thoughts?
What I've been trying recently is to board in 4x Pithing Needle and 3x Destructive Revelry and hope to set Needles on Aetherling and Elseph so they can't win. Revelry is there to hit their Spheres and Ratchet Bombs if they try to remove the Needles (destroying Sphere is always a great play though even if it isn't on Needle).
But so far in a dozen or so matches this has never happened. I don't know if it's just that I'm not drawing Needles or if this is just a bad plan. I might go back to Burning Earth soon, but that has never been that great either and can't be boarded in against UW.
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Satyr Hedonist
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Ember Swallower
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Arbor Colossus
3 Domri Rade
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Stomping Ground
3 Temple of Abandon
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
9 Forest
7 Mountain
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Magma Jet
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Clan Defiance
2 Burning Earth
2 Destructive Revelry
Specific Card Discussions
Hammer of Purphoros - I don't see why there's not more discussion about this card on this thread; I love it - reminds of Fires of Yavimaya even more than I thought it would. Kibler Gruul was good because of all the haste and now a lot of it is gone unless you have one of these in play. It also provides a late game mana sink of sorts (though probably not as good of one as Kessig Wolf Run). I won a game against Boros Midrange on the back of making a Golem token every turn for something like 5 turns in a row. I was running a third copy in the sideboard, but I cut it after last night. The match-up where I brought it in I had one stuck in my hand most of the game; I don't see Disenchant effects getting common enough to justify the slot.
Arbor Colossus - started as a budget option that should work well against midrange in this metagame (Desecration Demon, Stormbreath Dragon, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Archangel of Thune to name a few) - was also originally intended to help turn Nylea, God of the Hunt on but the green god's not currently in there yet they remain - I know it may be foolish to play a five drop creature to trump their four/five drop creature when they also have removal, but if they don't have the removal, their threat should get hit with a Plummet effect next turn
Burning-Tree Emissary, Sylvan Caryatid, & Satyr Hedonist - turn two BTE into either of the other two feels pretty good - BTE into Domri Rade and chump/fight or Hammer attack also feels pretty good - I was looking to run Kalonian Tusker as a good two-drop that can both attack and block and would help enable devotion for Nylea but the format seems to be about being fast right now and the dedicated midrange decks should be able to out grind me anyway, so I've basically cut the 3 Tuskers, 1 Scavenging Ooze (from the main), 1 Mizzium Mortars (from the main), and 2 Nylea for the fragile but explosive two-drops for now
Polukranos, World Eater - I pre-ordered these and still haven't arrived yet. Deadbridge Goliath has been a fine replacement. I haven't had two in play at once yet which hopefully means I won't run into many issues with Polukranos being legendary.
Like everyone else on here - I'm just trying to have a reasonable game against both Rx Aggro and UWx Control
Mono Red it seems to be 50/50 for me. Sometimes they run out of gas and i blow them out and sometimes they have so much gas and they beat you before you can stabilize. (which is understandable cuz that what it was designed to do.) Plus not having a way to kill reckoner without 2 for 1ing you is really annoying.
Bow of Nylea is pretty good against the RDW, my only issue with it is that RDW is the only match up I want it in. It's ability to gain 3 life a turn is almost like negating a hit to the face from a reckoner because in all honesty you don't want to block it. It's deal two damage is great vs the Phoenix because along with Ooze you won't have to worry about it anymore.
I've only dueled with Esper so I have no idea how the just U/W game is. Even so, if you over commit early game they demolish you with Supreme Verdict. If you play the midrange game they beat you with counters and win with either atherling or their planeswalkers.
If any one has had good experiences vs control I'd like to hear about them, because not only is it a hard match up, Personally I feel that I don't know how to play against it.
After some consideration about the meta and thoughts of stream lining the deck to a more midrange style based off of Chris Posperelis's deck from Worcestor, I have reached this deck.
4 Ember Swallower
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Spells
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Domri Rade
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Magma Jet
1 Mutavault
7 Forest
9 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
3 Temple of Abandon
3 Burning Earth
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Arbor Colossus
I could get behind 2 Bow in the sideboard - have considered it as a direct swap for Hammer in games where you're clearly not the beatdown (i.e. nearly mono-R aggro strategies)
None-the-less, welcome to one of the general rules of magic. Control has almost always the bane of midrange.
Last season we had cavern of souls which even if you weren't running it kept the counters down somewhat (Not like U/W/R didn't win worlds but still). On the other hand, thrag even if you didn't play it existed as well as all the undying and recursion so Verdicts weren't as strong overall.
In a bubble what I'm hearing is that you might have a strong deck that is kinda scooping to counters control.
I'd genuinely considering hating them right out. I've done it completely with my green white deck between Flash monsters, Boon Satyr and 4 copies of mistcutter main, and some number of skylashers. Though I'm I'm playing a g/w deck so I have voice also... but I think the great riddle of this deck is ultimately what do you do against control in general.
I can't imagine you guys are doing well against like "the rock" or Black based control either right?
They're monsters are just as huge and they have whip of erebos
I can get behind this deck because well I'm interested vaguely some variant of it for oldtimes sake.
However, the first attempt I'd make to try to fix the problem vs control is finding out if you have enough useful hate cards to attack the stratagem.
4x elvish mystic
4x sylvan caryatid
3x scavenging ooze
4x boon satyr
4x ghor-clan rampager
2x polukranos, the world eater
4x stormbreath dragon
2x ruric thar, the unbowed
4x domri rade
2x Chandra, pyromaster
Spells:
3x mizzium mortars
Lands:
4x stomping ground
4x temple of abandon
8x forest
6x mountain
2x mutavault
3x burning earth
3x destructive revelry
3x anger of the gods
2x gruul charm
2x pithing needle
1x mizzium mortars
1x hammer of purphoros
It seems alright might just need better tuning, but I like the idea of the deck.
@FlashLeopard22 : Mono red, UW base (either Esper or American Control), and Bx midrange have always been our headache. For mono red, I think I might be using Bow of Nylea in MB rather than Hammer. Easily gets extra GG for my SB Nylea's Disciple, swap with Ember Swallower. Gotta have as much G in it as possible. Esper, American Control and Bx midrange are the main problem. Mistcutter Hydra or Skylasher easly removed with B removal while another option Witchstalker is relatively too small to me. MB Ruric Thar also seems not enough, although at times it just surprises the opponent.
@solarsion : Totally agree with B midrange is our worst nightmare among all. In some rare cases, I could sac my satyr token to tap the demon and steal few damage. Lifelink is another problem since our win condition is only combat based damage. Obzedat, Blood Baron, Whip of Erebos to name a few.
EDIT : I have decided to SB Mistcutter Hydra since he is great against UW control, side by side with Stormbreath Dragon. Still have more test run to go.
2 Arbor Colossus
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Ember Swallower
4 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
2 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands
10 Forest
10 Mountain
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Nylea's Disciple
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Skullcrack
Main reason I choose not to run Stomping Ground is that I don't want to give my opponent free damage to myself. Plus, I don't have problems (so far) in mana fixing, so might as well just run basic lands.
A few notes on SB options :
Mistcutter Hydra : Obviously against U base deck. Also, I find mono blue fish deck is surprisingly competitive and specially made against RG.
Mizzium Mortars : Additional copy in SB against midrange deck.
Nylea's Disciple : Substitute Ember Swallower to go against mono red sligh.
Ratchet Bomb : A good card that easily eliminate permanents, especially those enchantments and planeswalker.
Skullcrack : Another card to go against UW Control, Esper or Bx Midrange that gains life. Usually in my experiences, their life at 5 or simply below 10 then only they start gaining and we lose tempo.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
The reason I don't run shocklands is because I'm trying to avoid my opponent to win simply by hitting me with 16-18 damage instead of 20, or I wish to start the game with 20 life, not 18 life. It may sounds kinda stupid but especially against mono red, extra 2-4 damage for them is a lot.
Voyaging Satyr over Sylvan Caryatid is because "Zvi's seven concepts of hypermana deckbuilding" point no. 2
Sometimes it helps that your mana dorks can be attackers against control decks, especially for the first few turns. Also, to put pressure on them to cast their Supreme Verdict, sweeping two mana dorks as attacker rather than sweeping big guys. Although he is vulnerable to single target removal, it just the risk I think I'm going to take.
To be honest, RG aggro version is a very fast deck. It may be a bit slower than mono red, but definitely stronger if to go up against each other. The problem is when your entire board being swept by Supreme Verdict, Anger of the Gods or Mizzium Mortars. It may run out of gas in dealing damage. Another version is GR Monsters ramp type, where I find most of the time I'm lacking of stuff to ramp on. Mono green has the craziest ramp version, with ramping Garruk, CoB and easily drop Worldspine Wurm on T3. So to balance things out, I tune my version to be a midrange-ramp type with continuously dropping beaters and threats.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Do you really think this is a viable gameplan against a deck that can gain tons of life and refill their hand at will in the late game? To hold back threats and force them to act while you attack with Squire?
1. Can we really get away with only 2 Elvish Mystic and move most of the ramp to the two-mana slots?
2. Does Burning-Tree Emissary into two-mana ramp spell pull enough weight to deserve a slot? Keep in mind it also provides some amount of color-fixing on later turns or should it be dropped
3. Which threats are all-stars, role-players, benchwarmers (sideboard!), and cuts? I'll try to rank them in the order I see them included in lists ... Ghor-Clan Rampager, Stormbreath Dragon, Ember Swallower, Polukranos, World Eater, Boon Satyr, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, Mistcutter Hydra, Arbor Colossus, Deadbridge Goliath ... (I'm sure I'm forgetting something) - I should probably just go re-read Cassial's comments related to *-system and re-rank a few as necessary. I personally a fan of Arbor Colossus and think Stormbreath Dragon is good but overrated if you haven't noticed
4. I couldn't talk people into running 2-3 Thragtusk in the sideboard during last Standard season. This season I don't particulary want Nylea's Disciple as it packs less punch and doesn't leave another body behind after it dies. Am I being foolish and we have to be interested in some incidental life-gain from cards like Disciple or Bow of Nylea in order to survive even though we are supposed to be an aggressive deck?
I've considered this, but Turn 2 Domri is extremely powerful and will almost surely lock up the game in itself. It's probably worth testing, but I would be really reluctant to give this up.
This thought also crossed my mind. But without BTE, you have absolutely no action until you start dropping your big 4-mana ground pounders. Opening with BTE allows you to attack and draw out a Supreme Verdict in the control matchups without having invested so much in your board. And it's still a pretty good card against the red decks because it will block and trade without sacrificing your early game development.
At times though it's true that it doesn't seem to pull it's weight. Again, another valid point that deserves looking into.
Ghor-Clan Rampager is definitely a great card, but in some matchups it shines more than others. I've been running three instead of four and can't think of a single time where I wanted one but didn't have it.
Boon Satyr is also a great card but the problem is that he costs three mana. A lot of the focus of the deck is skipping over three to get to four, so I think he will be slightly suboptimal here. If we're looking for ways to get BTE out of the deck though this might be a replacement. And obviously we're automatically back to 4x Mystic if we have Boon Satyr in the deck.
I don't like Ruric Thar because it's hard for the deck to hit six mana consistently at the times where you really want to be casting one (post Verdict). Or when you finally do, he just gets countered.
Mistcutter I don't have much experience with but I'm going to try it in the board to see if the Esper matchup improves.
Arbor Colossus is right on the fringe, but we already have so many other 4-5 mana cards that it's hard to justify it in the deck. Five toughness is every bit as good as six in this format, so Poluk and Ember Swallower win out for costing one mana less. Stormbreath Dragon has evasion so it can close games, so that too gets the nod over Colossus. After that, what is left to cut? And how many five mana cards can we afford to run?
I've been beating red decks by just bringing in Shock to help you stabilize until you can start hitting four drops. They have a very hard time dealing damage to you with a big five toughness guy sitting on the table. I don't particularly like Nylea's Disciple or Bow because they are very mana intensive, and having to take the time to spend mana to do things is something that the red decks are already built to punish you for.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=527176