This is what I'm playing right now; it's essentially a variant on Brian Kibler's Pro Tour Gatecrash list with a slightly higher curve and no huntmasters MD because I really haven't been too impressed with that card against a lot of decks.
This is what I'm playing right now; it's essentially a variant on Brian Kibler's Pro Tour Gatecrash list with a slightly higher curve and no huntmasters MD because I really haven't been too impressed with that card against a lot of decks.
3 forests and reckoner will get awkward, I promise you, and 6 5 drops and 2 6 drops without farseeks is going to get cumbersome. I would -1 domri -2 arbor elf -1 mizzium +4 farseek.
3 forests and reckoner will get awkward, I promise you, and 6 5 drops and 2 6 drops without farseeks is going to get cumbersome. I would -1 domri -2 arbor elf -1 mizzium +4 farseek.
I play this deck (the kibler version, not yours) for kinda long time now. I red the premium SCG article, and from that made some extra choices. I love naya in this format, so, from naya point i would not doubt to choose kibler's version.
That said, the 4 pilgrims, 4 elfs, is not bad, actually the idea of this deck is to turn 2 reckoner / loxodon, turn 3 loxodon, reckoner , or huntmaster. That curve + hellkite, or aurelia turn 5 or 6 would be game most of the cases.
I would not share all my techs about this deck, but, what i can say from what the brilliant kibler said, just take out ONE 1 arbor elf and choose to play another 4 drop or an extra removal like 4th mortars.
DO NOT play farseek in this deck, it actually will screw the sick purpose of this deck: ramp from turn 1 to turn 4.
Another suggestion is to play just ONE aurelia, just if you like her as a finisher.
I play this deck (the kibler version, not yours) for kinda long time now. I red the premium SCG article, and from that made some extra choices. I love naya in this format, so, from naya point i would not doubt to choose kibler's version.
That said, the 4 pilgrims, 4 elfs, is not bad, actually the idea of this deck is to turn 2 reckoner / loxodon, turn 3 loxodon, reckoner , or huntmaster. That curve + hellkite, or aurelia turn 5 or 6 would be game most of the cases.
I would not share all my techs about this deck, but, what i can say from what the brilliant kibler said, just take out ONE 1 arbor elf and choose to play another 4 drop or an extra removal like 4th mortars.
DO NOT play farseek in this deck, it actually will screw the sick purpose of this deck: ramp from turn 1 to turn 4.
Another suggestion is to play just ONE aurelia, just if you like her as a finisher.
Well, I hope this helps u man.
salute.
Kibler had an awful showing at Montreal, so I don't see that validates the decision to play the deck. Farseek is absolutely necessary with so many high-end creatures...kibler ran 5, there are 8 in this build listed. And if the purpose is to "ramp from t1 to 4" how is playing Farseek t2 not ramping? The only ramp in the deck is dorks, and as we've seen this format games are either incredibly short or incredibly long. Dorks help in the later, sure, but the last thing you wan't to do is start ripping mana creatures late game. And early game they will serve as a blocker and you'll still die. Curving from smiter, into huntmaster will not win you games. Deck's like Jund and Naya Humans would have no problem with that opening.
This build does EXACTLY what the more "traditional" Naya Midrange build does, but with way less consistency. Without farseek, you'll have a tough time hitting 3/6 red for Mizzium overload, and you'll rely on dorks to stay around for your mana to advance, which they won't.
I played 2 forests in a pure Naya Midrange build and I had multiple games where opening forest and dork and reckoner meant I couldn't drop him t2. With 3 forests you will have this happen more than you'd like.
All of the top placing midrange decks in the color (which is what that list is) ran less forests and more Farseek. None of what you said makes that any different. Gonna need more than Kibler's poor showing to make running this build a good choice in the current meta game
I see your answer to my post kind of aggressive. But OK. I'm here just for discuss, so well.
What i mean about "amazing kibler" is not just about his not embarrassing but yes poor performance in Pro Tour, i mean he is an amazin deck builder during the years.
and yes, does he maby make some mistakes? yeah sure, but I do not see this one as a bad build.
I tested a lot this deck for WMCQ. I need to win a WMCQ, im not the top pro this year and I also tested "traditional" naya lists with aurelias, and that stuff... but well, what i founded out is that I prefer having a mana dork in hand on turn 20 than a farseek just because this deck plays GAVONY TOWNSHIP.
Please I would love to see The "traditional " naya list you think is better than kibler's on this format.
I see your answer to my post kind of aggressive. But OK. I'm here just for discuss, so well.
What i mean about "amazing kibler" is not just about his not embarrassing but yes poor performance in Pro Tour, i mean he is an amazin deck builder during the years.
and yes, does he maby make some mistakes? yeah sure, but I do not see this one as a bad build.
I tested a lot this deck for WMCQ. I need to win a WMCQ, im not the top pro this year and I also tested "traditional" naya lists with aurelias, and that stuff... but well, what i founded out is that I prefer having a mana dork in hand on turn 20 than a farseek just because this deck plays GAVONY TOWNSHIP.
Please I would love to see The "traditional " naya list you think is better than kibler's on this format.
I would check out magic.tcgplayer.com or SCG for recent lists.
With such a top heavy creature line-up, Farseeks make them easier to hit. Dorks might not stay around, but outside of Acidic Slime, your land will. If he posted a list not running 8 5+ drops, and MB'd huntmaster, I probably wouldn't have suggested running Farseek's.
Your responses are kind of all over the place. Mana dorks and Gavony townships are a cool interaction, but t20 I would hate for that to be my play. Sorry if you felt my last response was aggressive, I was trying to point out that you might need to stray from the "brilliant kibler"'s first GC brew to stay competitive. Here is a great example of a build that does just that.
Sub out the Garruk's for Domri's and you're close to what Kibler was trying to do. I wouldn't MB Assemble's but that's just one example. There are tons on those sites I mentioned.
If you're looking to not run Farseek, run cards like Flinthoof Boar and Gyre Sage so you have more early game options.
I think that the reason to run Arbor Elves over Farseek is if what you really realyl want to do is to play a 3-drop on T2. Because both get you to 4 mana on T3 with equal facility, although Farseek is better since it fixes mana and the mana it gives you is less susceptible to removal.
fefor, I didn't think that bollskis was aggressive at all in his response to you. He was just stating facts.
The reason I don't like Forests (and Arbor Elf) is that those slots can be more profitably used on utility lands like Township, Cavern and Wolf Run. Those cards are just more relevant to me than the ability to drop a Smiter on T2.
I think that the reason to run Arbor Elves over Farseek is if what you really realyl want to do is to play a 3-drop on T2. Because both get you to 4 mana on T3 with equal facility, although Farseek is better since it fixes mana and the mana it gives you is less susceptible to removal.
fefor, I didn't think that bollskis was aggressive at all in his response to you. He was just stating facts.
The reason I don't like Forests (and Arbor Elf) is that those slots can be more profitably used on utility lands like Township, Cavern and Wolf Run. Those cards are just more relevant to me than the ability to drop a Smiter on T2.
I took really seriously what we said yesterday and today we're gonna test the no arbor no forest list AGAIN.
I couldn't agree with you more about what 8 dorks want to do. turn 2 reckoner/loxodon/domri.
If I found really more consistent the farseek version, I'll make you know today. But yes, theorically farseek is better fixing mana and also couldnt be killed hehe.
The list im trying today is Eric Rill's , Ive already talked to him, and seems a pretty good list.
We'll see.
I agree with half of bollskis criticism. I shaved a domri and a smiter for 2 farseeks, which seems to have sorted the mana better. I am running a lot more high-end than Kibler, though this mostly reflects the fact that decks like Junk Rites (very popular online) don't kill your dorks at all.
If he posted a list not running 8 5+ drops, and MB'd huntmaster, I probably wouldn't have suggested running Farseek's.
I started with this and kept flooding, so gradually cut huntmasters for higher CMC cards. As I said above, I may have overdone it. I'll keep testing.
The reckoner thing though really is fine in my experience, and it hasn't yet been uncastable in dozens of matches; worst case scenario seems to be that it only comes down when you have 4 mana in play (which is normally on turn 3).
I agree with half of bollskis criticism. I shaved a domri and a smiter for 2 farseeks, which seems to have sorted the mana better. I am running a lot more high-end than Kibler, though this mostly reflects the fact that decks like Junk Rites (very popular online) don't kill your dorks at all.
I started with this and kept flooding, so gradually cut huntmasters for higher CMC cards. As I said above, I may have overdone it. I'll keep testing.
The reckoner thing though really is fine in my experience, and it hasn't yet been uncastable in dozens of matches; worst case scenario seems to be that it only comes down when you have 4 mana in play (which is normally on turn 3).
What stinks is junk doesn't have to kill out creatures one AoS is a one sided board wipe, and we normally don't run cards that can answer AoS mb...oring would be the closest thing we have, and that's a sideboard card at the moment. We can have the hottest start our deck can muster, and t5 or 4 AoS just beats us.
Main boarding selesnya charm is always good. It answers another annoyance - obzedat, and randomly stops olivias and hellkites. I recommend 1 main 1 side, in addition to o-ring effects.
Main boarding selesnya charm is always good. It answers another annoyance - obzedat, and randomly stops olivias and hellkites. I recommend 1 main 1 side, in addition to o-ring effects.
Mmm, good call. I forgot about Selesyna Charm, I haven't been siding it. For sure will find spots for it with all this Junk running around
Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
23 lands, no dorks, no farseek, a whole buncha 4-6 drops.
Come on man you gotta try harder in the competitive forum. At least bump the land count up.
There's no dorks, no farseeks for a reason: his name is Domri Rade. I hate topdecking a useless mana dork late, and Farseek is no better. And a "buncha 4-6 drops" in a 23 land deck is completely reasonable. How about doing some independent testing of a list before critiquing?
Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
There's no dorks, no farseeks for a reason: his name is Domri Rade. I hate topdecking a useless mana dork late, and Farseek is no better. And a "buncha 4-6 drops" in a 23 land deck is completely reasonable. How about doing some independent testing of a list before critiquing?
It just seems janky. You have the potential for some okay aggro openings with burning tree, but you follow it up with mb Trostani? Why not go all out aggro, or all out midrange. And why would you play lightening mauler over flinthoof boar? You're not going to kill by t3 or 4 so the haste seems like a waste. There haven't been any top domri-centric decks lately, so the concept is a little finicky competitively.
When I get my hands on another Reckoner, I'll probably substitute it with Domri. Theoretically, the deck's ability to push through 4/4s or trample should be strong, especially over chumps. The 6 charms give the deck utility (all 3 Selesnya abilities) and finishing quality (double on tramplers).
However, my mana base has been very inconsistent. Aside from the 12 dual lands, I'm adding one Kessig Wolf Run and one Cavern of Souls. Is there a good guide as to the balance between the other lands?
There's no dorks, no farseeks for a reason: his name is Domri Rade. I hate topdecking a useless mana dork late, and Farseek is no better. And a "buncha 4-6 drops" in a 23 land deck is completely reasonable. How about doing some independent testing of a list before critiquing?
I don't need to test your list because I've played this archetype too many times to know how to balance my mana. If I run less lands I run fixers. Simple.
Really, Soma, it helps no one that you like to post lists with far too little lands and get really defensive about it. If you're not going to accept ANY criticism, even something simple like "run more lands" then why are you posting your list? This is the forum where we all learn from each other to get better.
So we've got a decent size tourney coming up on Sunday. Will have test FNM on Friday and a GPT on the Sat before, to do final scouting on meta and do testing, but I've put this together as I think I'm going to be facing mostly agro and midrange with a couple reanimator decks thrown in.
Both Healer and Smiters because I want a reliable way of putting bodies in front of agro and both seem good. I think that smiter is better, which is why I'm running 4 of him. Most might note I'm not running Huntmaster, I'm not oppossed to the idea, I just really want to get stop signs down on the board as soon as possible and turn 2/3 seems much better than turn 3/4.
Thrags and Restos are pretty much meat and bones. Angel of Serenity is a house, this has been pretty much established, so we include 3 copies of her. Warleader is hopefully so we can win out of nowhere, same with Gisela, but she's really good at helping with defense too.
I wan to try out 1 Collective Blessing, because I just want to go bigger than all the other midrange decks and this just seems like a great way to do that, as it turns a late game top deck elf into a 4/4 beater.
Spears for spot removal and bonfire for some sweeper action. I kinda want a 3rd spear, but we'll see how it plays like this.
So we've got a decent size tourney coming up on Sunday. Will have test FNM on Friday and a GPT on the Sat before, to do final scouting on meta and do testing, but I've put this together as I think I'm going to be facing mostly agro and midrange with a couple reanimator decks thrown in.
Both Healer and Smiters because I want a reliable way of putting bodies in front of agro and both seem good. I think that smiter is better, which is why I'm running 4 of him. Most might note I'm not running Huntmaster, I'm not oppossed to the idea, I just really want to get stop signs down on the board as soon as possible and turn 2/3 seems much better than turn 3/4.
Thrags and Restos are pretty much meat and bones. Angel of Serenity is a house, this has been pretty much established, so we include 3 copies of her. Warleader is hopefully so we can win out of nowhere, same with Gisela, but she's really good at helping with defense too.
I wan to try out 1 Collective Blessing, because I just want to go bigger than all the other midrange decks and this just seems like a great way to do that, as it turns a late game top deck elf into a 4/4 beater.
Spears for spot removal and bonfire for some sweeper action. I kinda want a 3rd spear, but we'll see how it plays like this.
I have reservations about Gisela, Aurelia, and Collective Blessing but that's your own business. They're good cards that might work out for you. I would take out the 4 Arbor Elf as they only untap Forest Lands which is only 8 of your lands. You want more consistency, not to mention you'll be flooded with dorks.
Be careful of Obzedat, Ghost Council. Even though you have 2 Charms to deal with it side-board, I find that I can't stop him once I'm out of charms and he's blinking back and forth. Consider Silverblade Paladin if you really feel like it, otherwise it's a solid list.
There's no dorks, no farseeks for a reason: his name is Domri Rade. I hate topdecking a useless mana dork late, and Farseek is no better. And a "buncha 4-6 drops" in a 23 land deck is completely reasonable. How about doing some independent testing of a list before critiquing?
You know what I hate topdecking late? Temple Gardens. Your reasoning for discounting mana bugs would suggest that I should cut them from my deck also.
p.s. Domri Rade can draw you a mana dork when he is revealed....
I get defensive because me posting a list is me trying to find confirmation that what I'm working on isn't just a fluke.
Except that you're getting pretty consistent feedback from all of us that you are wrong, and that if you are getting good results, they are almost certainly due to the following:
1. Bad shuffling on your part (do you do any testing online? Does the online shuffler 'screw' you? That's actually actual shuffling screwing you when your insufficient randomisation IRL is letting you cheat on mana).
2. Bad opponents with bad decks. Yes, your list if suboptimal. But it can still crush other even more suboptimal lists.
3. Bad testing opponents.
4. Variance
5. We are wrong and you are right.
I think that (4) and (5) are far and away the least likely of those options.
Did you actually want feedback? Or just validation that what you had already decided was right?
I, in fact, don't give two poops about the math (for the most part) because truth be told, I'm results-oriented because the results are what matter. If your deck is mathematically sound, but can't win games, who cares?
And about the numbers: I'd rather just play lands and skillfully play to win. I don't want dead draws of Arbor Elf or Farseek. Sure, I could play things that make both of those cards good,
Your deck's powerful T2 play is Burning-Tree Emissary -> Lightning Mauler.
I think that a T2 Boros Reckoner trumps your start and is better vs the rest of the field as well.
but the rest of the cards are already good, why play higher-risk spells when safer, higher-EV cards are available?
So many logic errors in this one post. YOU'RE the one playing high EV magic with Gyre Sage and too many 4-5-6 drops. WE are playing the consistent magic with one-drop elves.
I'm not trying to put down t3 Thrags (though T4 Aurelia has happened a few times) and I'm not concerned about casting T2 Domri/Reckoner/Smiter.
Thragtusk is a good but not great card. It's typically the last non-angel card in my hand I cast. I DON'T plan on casting him T3 basically ever. What I want to do is T2 Smiter, T3 Huntmaster, T4 (flip Huntmaster) Resto in their turn. That's my sequence that I think trumps your deck handily.
You've been too blindered by what you feel this "deck" is, I think.
Or at least it feels that way.
This is certainly true. Your deck has a lot of elements of Gruul aggro in it, although I question the inclusion of Trostani, Aurelia and Selesnya charm in your deck, since they don't seem to do what that deck wants to do (lower the opponent's life total). I think that you want to lower your curve and be more aggressive with Searing Spear and Flinthoof Boar.
And I know the HGD, but thanks for the link all the same.[/QUOTE]
You know what I hate topdecking late? Temple Gardens. Your reasoning for discounting mana bugs would suggest that I should cut them from my deck also.
p.s. Domri Rade can draw you a mana dork when he is revealed....
Except that you're getting pretty consistent feedback from all of us that you are wrong, and that if you are getting good results, they are almost certainly due to the following:
1. Bad shuffling on your part (do you do any testing online? Does the online shuffler 'screw' you? That's actually actual shuffling screwing you when your insufficient randomisation IRL is letting you cheat on mana).
2. Bad opponents with bad decks. Yes, your list if suboptimal. But it can still crush other even more suboptimal lists.
3. Bad testing opponents.
4. Variance
5. We are wrong and you are right.
I think that (4) and (5) are far and away the least likely of those options.
Did you actually want feedback? Or just validation that what you had already decided was right?
Your deck's powerful T2 play is Burning-Tree Emissary -> Lightning Mauler.
I think that a T2 Boros Reckoner trumps your start and is better vs the rest of the field as well.
So many logic errors in this one post. YOU'RE the one playing high EV magic with Gyre Sage and too many 4-5-6 drops. WE are playing the consistent magic with one-drop elves.
Thragtusk is a good but not great card. It's typically the last non-angel card in my hand I cast. I DON'T plan on casting him T3 basically ever. What I want to do is T2 Smiter, T3 Huntmaster, T4 (flip Huntmaster) Resto in their turn. That's my sequence that I think trumps your deck handily.
This is certainly true. Your deck has a lot of elements of Gruul aggro in it, although I question the inclusion of Trostani, Aurelia and Selesnya charm in your deck, since they don't seem to do what that deck wants to do (lower the opponent's life total). I think that you want to lower your curve and be more aggressive with Searing Spear and Flinthoof Boar.
And I know the HGD, but thanks for the link all the same.
I give up trying to explain myself or brew decks, I guess. Is this the response you wanted? I hope you all enjoyed having someone to laugh at.
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I give up trying to explain myself or brew decks, I guess. Is this the response you wanted? I hope you all enjoyed having someone to laugh at.
I'm not laughing at you. All of us are giving you (the same) advice that we genuinely think will make your deck better.
Your deck currently looks like a Gruul deck splashing white for janky white cards (and Restoration Angel). Wouldn't a deck that more closely resembles Saito's list put up better results for you?
Deck has no Huntmasters. A full spread of Reckoners and Smiters seems sufficient at slowing down aggro.
This also helps lower the curve to accommodate a fatter top end. I liked Huntmaster in earlier versions that ran more Charms + Spears to enable flips, but he just doesn't apply enough pressure here.
Openings without Pilgrim or Farseek look to drop Thalia as a staller to both control and aggro. While she has fallen out of popularity it's hard to ignore her value in a 27 creature count build. I'd actually like to bump her count up to 3 to improve consistency. She's a tertiary line of play that is a viable alternative to the Pilgrim and Farseek "fast start". The Farseek start is too slow against Blitz, and I've found it difficult to ensure consistent fast starts with elves being so akward with low forest count + Reckoner.
The only 4 drop is Resto. Without a Resto in hand the play is Reckoner/Smiter/Domri -> pass with 1 open mana for Faith's Shield to protect. (There are 11 three-drops in the deck). With higher top end being implemented to push a more robust threat density, having 2 mana open for Charms and Spears gets sketchy. Shield not only protects a 3 drop, but serves similar late game purposes; Boros Charm (survive combat); and where a buff such as Rancor, Ghor-Clan, or Selesnya Charm would provide boosted power + trample, Shield potentially makes something unblockable enabling damage to get through.
Aurelia's Fury has been a decent one-of. The tap down for alpha strike has led to some blowouts in mirrors. Just scortching dome for those last few points of damage ftw works well too. Acts as a 3rd mana dump alongside Wolf Runs too. I'm a fan. Maybe Bonfire is better here? I used to play "oops I win", but it's been a while. As long as I'm getting greedy, I think I like the ability to tap down at instant speed. Seems better - chance to interact with the stack.
Ghor-Clan hasn't been tested. He seems perfect synergy with Domri Rade, but not sure this is what this deck wants to do. Fits Ragehammer theme well enough though. Will be playing him as 2-of at fnm.
Unorthodox sideboard options include Assemble the Legions and Sigarda.
Pretty much in there for Control: Esper, 4 Color, and rogue Bant, MBC and Grixis.
Maybe Sigarda should be Angel of Serenity for the mirror?
Extra Selesnya Charms because they are relevant against Jund Mid, Reanimator, Wolf Bant, and Mirror.
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Forest
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Arbor Elf
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Aurelia, The Warleader
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Purify the Grave
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Pacifism
2 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Bonfire of the Damned
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
3 forests and reckoner will get awkward, I promise you, and 6 5 drops and 2 6 drops without farseeks is going to get cumbersome. I would -1 domri -2 arbor elf -1 mizzium +4 farseek.
I play this deck (the kibler version, not yours) for kinda long time now. I red the premium SCG article, and from that made some extra choices. I love naya in this format, so, from naya point i would not doubt to choose kibler's version.
That said, the 4 pilgrims, 4 elfs, is not bad, actually the idea of this deck is to turn 2 reckoner / loxodon, turn 3 loxodon, reckoner , or huntmaster. That curve + hellkite, or aurelia turn 5 or 6 would be game most of the cases.
I would not share all my techs about this deck, but, what i can say from what the brilliant kibler said, just take out ONE 1 arbor elf and choose to play another 4 drop or an extra removal like 4th mortars.
DO NOT play farseek in this deck, it actually will screw the sick purpose of this deck: ramp from turn 1 to turn 4.
Another suggestion is to play just ONE aurelia, just if you like her as a finisher.
Well, I hope this helps u man.
salute.
Kibler had an awful showing at Montreal, so I don't see that validates the decision to play the deck. Farseek is absolutely necessary with so many high-end creatures...kibler ran 5, there are 8 in this build listed. And if the purpose is to "ramp from t1 to 4" how is playing Farseek t2 not ramping? The only ramp in the deck is dorks, and as we've seen this format games are either incredibly short or incredibly long. Dorks help in the later, sure, but the last thing you wan't to do is start ripping mana creatures late game. And early game they will serve as a blocker and you'll still die. Curving from smiter, into huntmaster will not win you games. Deck's like Jund and Naya Humans would have no problem with that opening.
This build does EXACTLY what the more "traditional" Naya Midrange build does, but with way less consistency. Without farseek, you'll have a tough time hitting 3/6 red for Mizzium overload, and you'll rely on dorks to stay around for your mana to advance, which they won't.
I played 2 forests in a pure Naya Midrange build and I had multiple games where opening forest and dork and reckoner meant I couldn't drop him t2. With 3 forests you will have this happen more than you'd like.
All of the top placing midrange decks in the color (which is what that list is) ran less forests and more Farseek. None of what you said makes that any different. Gonna need more than Kibler's poor showing to make running this build a good choice in the current meta game
What i mean about "amazing kibler" is not just about his not embarrassing but yes poor performance in Pro Tour, i mean he is an amazin deck builder during the years.
and yes, does he maby make some mistakes? yeah sure, but I do not see this one as a bad build.
I tested a lot this deck for WMCQ. I need to win a WMCQ, im not the top pro this year and I also tested "traditional" naya lists with aurelias, and that stuff... but well, what i founded out is that I prefer having a mana dork in hand on turn 20 than a farseek just because this deck plays GAVONY TOWNSHIP.
Please I would love to see The "traditional " naya list you think is better than kibler's on this format.
I would check out magic.tcgplayer.com or SCG for recent lists.
With such a top heavy creature line-up, Farseeks make them easier to hit. Dorks might not stay around, but outside of Acidic Slime, your land will. If he posted a list not running 8 5+ drops, and MB'd huntmaster, I probably wouldn't have suggested running Farseek's.
Your responses are kind of all over the place. Mana dorks and Gavony townships are a cool interaction, but t20 I would hate for that to be my play. Sorry if you felt my last response was aggressive, I was trying to point out that you might need to stray from the "brilliant kibler"'s first GC brew to stay competitive. Here is a great example of a build that does just that.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Assemble the Legion
4 Farseek
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Clifftop Retreat
3 Forest
3 Gavony Township
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
Sub out the Garruk's for Domri's and you're close to what Kibler was trying to do. I wouldn't MB Assemble's but that's just one example. There are tons on those sites I mentioned.
If you're looking to not run Farseek, run cards like Flinthoof Boar and Gyre Sage so you have more early game options.
(I sent you a PM BOLLSKIS)
fefor, I didn't think that bollskis was aggressive at all in his response to you. He was just stating facts.
The reason I don't like Forests (and Arbor Elf) is that those slots can be more profitably used on utility lands like Township, Cavern and Wolf Run. Those cards are just more relevant to me than the ability to drop a Smiter on T2.
I took really seriously what we said yesterday and today we're gonna test the no arbor no forest list AGAIN.
I couldn't agree with you more about what 8 dorks want to do. turn 2 reckoner/loxodon/domri.
If I found really more consistent the farseek version, I'll make you know today. But yes, theorically farseek is better fixing mana and also couldnt be killed hehe.
The list im trying today is Eric Rill's , Ive already talked to him, and seems a pretty good list.
We'll see.
I started with this and kept flooding, so gradually cut huntmasters for higher CMC cards. As I said above, I may have overdone it. I'll keep testing.
The reckoner thing though really is fine in my experience, and it hasn't yet been uncastable in dozens of matches; worst case scenario seems to be that it only comes down when you have 4 mana in play (which is normally on turn 3).
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
What stinks is junk doesn't have to kill out creatures one AoS is a one sided board wipe, and we normally don't run cards that can answer AoS mb...oring would be the closest thing we have, and that's a sideboard card at the moment. We can have the hottest start our deck can muster, and t5 or 4 AoS just beats us.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Mmm, good call. I forgot about Selesyna Charm, I haven't been siding it. For sure will find spots for it with all this Junk running around
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Lightning Mauler
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Thragtusk
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
3 Selesnya Charm
Been testing this one.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Come on man you gotta try harder in the competitive forum. At least bump the land count up.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
There's no dorks, no farseeks for a reason: his name is Domri Rade. I hate topdecking a useless mana dork late, and Farseek is no better. And a "buncha 4-6 drops" in a 23 land deck is completely reasonable. How about doing some independent testing of a list before critiquing?
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
It just seems janky. You have the potential for some okay aggro openings with burning tree, but you follow it up with mb Trostani? Why not go all out aggro, or all out midrange. And why would you play lightening mauler over flinthoof boar? You're not going to kill by t3 or 4 so the haste seems like a waste. There haven't been any top domri-centric decks lately, so the concept is a little finicky competitively.
So far, here was the concept list I had -
1 Ulvenwald tracker
2 Rancor
4 Farseek
3 Searing Spear
3 Selesnya Charm
3 Boros Charm
3 Nearheath Pilgrim
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Boros Reckoner
1 Domri Rade
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Deadbridge Goliath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
When I get my hands on another Reckoner, I'll probably substitute it with Domri. Theoretically, the deck's ability to push through 4/4s or trample should be strong, especially over chumps. The 6 charms give the deck utility (all 3 Selesnya abilities) and finishing quality (double on tramplers).
However, my mana base has been very inconsistent. Aside from the 12 dual lands, I'm adding one Kessig Wolf Run and one Cavern of Souls. Is there a good guide as to the balance between the other lands?
I don't need to test your list because I've played this archetype too many times to know how to balance my mana. If I run less lands I run fixers. Simple.
Math: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=462016
Really, Soma, it helps no one that you like to post lists with far too little lands and get really defensive about it. If you're not going to accept ANY criticism, even something simple like "run more lands" then why are you posting your list? This is the forum where we all learn from each other to get better.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
3x Arbor Elf
4x Farseek
3x Angel of Serenity
1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1x Aurelia, the Warleader
4x Loxodon Smiter
3x Centaur Healer
4x Thragtusk
4x Restoration Angel
2x Searing Spear
1x Collective Blessing
4x Temple Garden
4x Stomping Ground
2x Sacred Foundry
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Rootbound Crag
2x Clifftop Retreat
2x Kessig Wolf run
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Trostani
1x Rhox Faithmender
3x Purify the Grave
2x Selesnya Charm
2x Acidic Slime
1x Collective Blessing
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Witchbane Orb
So some explanations.
Both Healer and Smiters because I want a reliable way of putting bodies in front of agro and both seem good. I think that smiter is better, which is why I'm running 4 of him. Most might note I'm not running Huntmaster, I'm not oppossed to the idea, I just really want to get stop signs down on the board as soon as possible and turn 2/3 seems much better than turn 3/4.
Thrags and Restos are pretty much meat and bones. Angel of Serenity is a house, this has been pretty much established, so we include 3 copies of her. Warleader is hopefully so we can win out of nowhere, same with Gisela, but she's really good at helping with defense too.
I wan to try out 1 Collective Blessing, because I just want to go bigger than all the other midrange decks and this just seems like a great way to do that, as it turns a late game top deck elf into a 4/4 beater.
Spears for spot removal and bonfire for some sweeper action. I kinda want a 3rd spear, but we'll see how it plays like this.
I have reservations about Gisela, Aurelia, and Collective Blessing but that's your own business. They're good cards that might work out for you. I would take out the 4 Arbor Elf as they only untap Forest Lands which is only 8 of your lands. You want more consistency, not to mention you'll be flooded with dorks.
-3 Arbor Elf
+2 Searing Spear
+1 Centaur Healer
Be careful of Obzedat, Ghost Council. Even though you have 2 Charms to deal with it side-board, I find that I can't stop him once I'm out of charms and he's blinking back and forth. Consider Silverblade Paladin if you really feel like it, otherwise it's a solid list.
You know what I hate topdecking late? Temple Gardens. Your reasoning for discounting mana bugs would suggest that I should cut them from my deck also.
p.s. Domri Rade can draw you a mana dork when he is revealed....
Except that you're getting pretty consistent feedback from all of us that you are wrong, and that if you are getting good results, they are almost certainly due to the following:
1. Bad shuffling on your part (do you do any testing online? Does the online shuffler 'screw' you? That's actually actual shuffling screwing you when your insufficient randomisation IRL is letting you cheat on mana).
2. Bad opponents with bad decks. Yes, your list if suboptimal. But it can still crush other even more suboptimal lists.
3. Bad testing opponents.
4. Variance
5. We are wrong and you are right.
I think that (4) and (5) are far and away the least likely of those options.
Did you actually want feedback? Or just validation that what you had already decided was right?
I see. (moves quietly away)
I would play 3 drops to make Avacyn's Pilgrim good. Examples are: Domri Rade, Boros Reckoner, Loxodon Smiter, [card]Wolfir Avenger[/deck].
Your deck's powerful T2 play is Burning-Tree Emissary -> Lightning Mauler.
I think that a T2 Boros Reckoner trumps your start and is better vs the rest of the field as well.
So many logic errors in this one post. YOU'RE the one playing high EV magic with Gyre Sage and too many 4-5-6 drops. WE are playing the consistent magic with one-drop elves.
Thragtusk is a good but not great card. It's typically the last non-angel card in my hand I cast. I DON'T plan on casting him T3 basically ever. What I want to do is T2 Smiter, T3 Huntmaster, T4 (flip Huntmaster) Resto in their turn. That's my sequence that I think trumps your deck handily.
This is certainly true. Your deck has a lot of elements of Gruul aggro in it, although I question the inclusion of Trostani, Aurelia and Selesnya charm in your deck, since they don't seem to do what that deck wants to do (lower the opponent's life total). I think that you want to lower your curve and be more aggressive with Searing Spear and Flinthoof Boar.
And I know the HGD, but thanks for the link all the same.[/QUOTE]
I give up trying to explain myself or brew decks, I guess. Is this the response you wanted? I hope you all enjoyed having someone to laugh at.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I'm not laughing at you. All of us are giving you (the same) advice that we genuinely think will make your deck better.
Your deck currently looks like a Gruul deck splashing white for janky white cards (and Restoration Angel). Wouldn't a deck that more closely resembles Saito's list put up better results for you?
Deck has no Huntmasters. A full spread of Reckoners and Smiters seems sufficient at slowing down aggro.
This also helps lower the curve to accommodate a fatter top end. I liked Huntmaster in earlier versions that ran more Charms + Spears to enable flips, but he just doesn't apply enough pressure here.
Openings without Pilgrim or Farseek look to drop Thalia as a staller to both control and aggro. While she has fallen out of popularity it's hard to ignore her value in a 27 creature count build. I'd actually like to bump her count up to 3 to improve consistency. She's a tertiary line of play that is a viable alternative to the Pilgrim and Farseek "fast start". The Farseek start is too slow against Blitz, and I've found it difficult to ensure consistent fast starts with elves being so akward with low forest count + Reckoner.
The only 4 drop is Resto. Without a Resto in hand the play is Reckoner/Smiter/Domri -> pass with 1 open mana for Faith's Shield to protect. (There are 11 three-drops in the deck). With higher top end being implemented to push a more robust threat density, having 2 mana open for Charms and Spears gets sketchy. Shield not only protects a 3 drop, but serves similar late game purposes; Boros Charm (survive combat); and where a buff such as Rancor, Ghor-Clan, or Selesnya Charm would provide boosted power + trample, Shield potentially makes something unblockable enabling damage to get through.
Aurelia's Fury has been a decent one-of. The tap down for alpha strike has led to some blowouts in mirrors. Just scortching dome for those last few points of damage ftw works well too. Acts as a 3rd mana dump alongside Wolf Runs too. I'm a fan. Maybe Bonfire is better here? I used to play "oops I win", but it's been a while. As long as I'm getting greedy, I think I like the ability to tap down at instant speed. Seems better - chance to interact with the stack.
Ghor-Clan hasn't been tested. He seems perfect synergy with Domri Rade, but not sure this is what this deck wants to do. Fits Ragehammer theme well enough though. Will be playing him as 2-of at fnm.
Unorthodox sideboard options include Assemble the Legions and Sigarda.
Pretty much in there for Control: Esper, 4 Color, and rogue Bant, MBC and Grixis.
Maybe Sigarda should be Angel of Serenity for the mirror?
Extra Selesnya Charms because they are relevant against Jund Mid, Reanimator, Wolf Bant, and Mirror.
4 Temple garden
3 Sacred foundry
3 Stomping ground
4 Sunpetal grove
4 Rootbound crag
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Kessig wolf run
Creatures (27)
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Boros reckoner
4 Loxodon smiter
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Restoration angel
3 Thragtusk
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
3 Domri Rade
4 Farseek
1 Aurelia's Fury
2 Faith's Shield
2 Boros Charm
3 Selesnya Charm
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Rest In Peace
2 Purify The Grave
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Zealous Conscripts
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW