I wanted to bring up the topic of sideboarding Assemble the Legion as a possible 2 of against control. Ive been brain storming, and brain storming over this idea for some time now. The entire idea behind it is, our weakest matchup is against control. While we have other answers to board wipes in terms of Boros Charm. Overall Assemble the Legion is just back breaking to these control decks, more and more are not running many dspheres if any at all. What do you guys think? It is a t5 play, but with ramp its possible to see it on t3 and its something that will end a game against these esper decks, and grixis control.
Only problem I can foresee is trying to resolve it. Our creatures are easier via Cavern, enchantments, especially high-cost ones, can be difficult to resolve against control. I find it hard enough getting my 3cmc Triumph of Ferocity to resolve.
Only problem I can foresee is trying to resolve it. Our creatures are easier via Cavern, enchantments, especially high-cost ones, can be difficult to resolve against control. I find it hard enough getting my 3cmc Triumph of Ferocity to resolve.
is the threat of counterspells really the biggest issue with this card? If you're playing caverns and creatures game 1, I wouldn't have thought control would keep many, if any, counters in for game 2. And if you hit your land drops, this conveniently comes into play right after they tap out for verdict (on the play at least).
I'm not necessarily convinced that control is our worst matchup (depends what version of the deck you're talking about, but I think jund midrange and UWR flash are bigger bogies), but if it is a matchup you have issues with then it seems like a card.
The bonus is that this card is good against ALL control decks, including Jund, Mostly/MonoBC, UW/x, and 5 color. The main things to be aware of: any deck with green or white can destroy this can if they want. Sure it completely blows them out, but if they saw it game 2, don't leave it in, to try blank any response to it.
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Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I strongly disagree that this is a good card against jund, jund will kill you way too quickly with nighthawk/thragtusk/flipped huntmaster/olivia/wolf run for it to be useful. I can see it vs esper and bant control, but not jund
It depends on how much of a control aspect you want to play against Jund really. If you're goal is to just keep dropping creatures and force them to have an answer for each one I'm not much of a fan of assemble. If you run mortars/bonfires/selesnya charms then I can see assemble doing quite a bit of work. They'll chump Thrag and tokens on the ground all day and if you have removal for Olivia you're going to win eventually.
Maybe I am missing something but how would this be better then either Garruk? Or Sorin or even thrag? I could certainly be wrong but to me this seems like this is a 5 drop that does nothing when it comes into play, and then nets 3 1/1 tokens over the next two turns. Seems under whelming. You can get 3 token from either Garruk over three turns, and they make bigger tokens, and have more options. If you want 1/1 guys play Lingering Souls, at least they fly. Maybe I am missing something, if the game goes 4-5 more turns you can start to get an advantage, but they are still only 1/1. Just about any creature they have can chump them all day.
I was testing this card out, and it worked wonders in my local meta because the control players here tend to play tap-out style control decks. Yes, it's a slow win con, but it's harder for control to deal with than Thrag or 'Walkers.
I don't understand why people are dissing this discussion in the competitive forum discussion thread. This card is awesome in non-aggressive matchups and people who think it is bad need to play against it.
I recently put myself through an exhaustive task of listing every sideboard option in Standard for Naya vs control (and agro, and mirror). It took a long time and a lot of honest back and forth as well as conversations with control players, I settled on 4-of Nevermore and 2-of Assemble the Legion for my control matchup sideboard options.
To touch briefly on the Nevermores; I felt that the biggest issue for Naya (midrange specifically) is that it’s almost impossible NOT to overextend into a sweeper – you can’t win before or immediately after a sweeper and you can’t apply pressure with just one threat. The nail in the coffin however, is the life gain and card advantage from Sphinx’s Revelation that makes the game neigh unwinnable. I theorize that, by naming Sphinx’s Revelation on Nevermore, you deny your opponent almost all card advantage. My card quality is higher than my control opponents card quality so, if I can shut down my opponents card advantage I should win. Additionally, Nevermore psudo-doubles as Rest In Peace vs reanimator decks and I was tired of giving up two sideboard slots to what is mostly a fringe deck in my meta.
But, to the subject of the thread: Assemble the Legion. The problem with Naya (midrange specifically) is that once we’re derailed off our plan and dumped into top-deck mode we’re dead in the water vs control. Even if you DRAW a threat, you’re opponent has a way to deal with it because he’s usually holding a full hand. Assemble the Legion however functions as psudo-card advantage as well as providing a way to continue to apply pressure against the control players major defenses.
Thragstusks can only block one token, Sorin Vampire tokens can only block one token, Azorious Charm only deals with one token, Supreme Verdict and Terminus hits all your tokens but you’re still a threat on your next turn, Lingering Souls gives your opponent 4 blockers but your attackers come back.
The key to using this card, in my opinion, is changing your thinking about how to play vs control. Getting to 5 mana is no issue for us. So, the plan is to play as many threats as quickly as possible – willfully overextend. This will force your opponent to sweep at 4 to 6 mana which will give YOU the freedom to jam Assemble the Legion when your opponent is tapped out.
Barring the occasional O-ring or D-sphere which will generally be a 0-to-2-of in your opponents deck, you should be ok so long as you are ALSO running plains walkers main deck (specifically, little Garruk or Domri) that provide you with an additional non-creature threat.
Now, when you’re talking 5-drops, the counterargument to Assemble the Legion is Big Garruk. The problem I have found with Garruk is that the tokens can’t get by chumps and he will invariably die to a restoration angel in 2 or 3 turns. While both Assemble the Legion and Garruk are vulnerable to O-ring and D-sphere, only Garruk is vulnerable to creatures. Additionally, while Garruk gives you 3 power on board every turn if left unmolested, Assemble the Legion gives you X+Y power AND X+Y DAMAGE every turn where X is the number of tokens you had in play previously and Y is the number of tokens you put in play on your turn. People THINK Garruk “does something” when he hits the field because he puts a token in play. Actually, unless that token is a blocker (which it is not when you’re in the control matchup), Garruk and Assemble the Legion both “do something” in terms of damage on the same turn – the turn AFTER they come into play.
Now, I will close with a reminder that this is mostly theory and I will not have an opportunity to really put the theory to the test until tomorrow night’s FNM. Goldfish who land T4 Verdict every game and casual opponents hardly count as a real test.
Now, when you’re talking 5-drops, the counterargument to Assemble the Legion is Big Garruk. The problem I have found with Garruk is that the tokens can’t get by chumps and he will invariably die to a restoration angel in 2 or 3 turns. While both Assemble the Legion and Garruk are vulnerable to O-ring and D-sphere, only Garruk is vulnerable to creatures. Additionally, while Garruk gives you 3 power on board every turn if left unmolested, Assemble the Legion gives you X+Y power AND X+Y DAMAGE every turn where X is the number of tokens you had in play previously and Y is the number of tokens you put in play on your turn. People THINK Garruk “does something” when he hits the field because he puts a token in play. Actually, unless that token is a blocker (which it is not when you’re in the control matchup), Garruk and Assemble the Legion both “do something” in terms of damage on the same turn – the turn AFTER they come into play.
Now, I will close with a reminder that this is mostly theory and I will not have an opportunity to really put the theory to the test until tomorrow night’s FNM. Goldfish who land T4 Verdict every game and casual opponents hardly count as a real test.
Assemble doesn't draw you cards. Garruk doesn't just have to come in and make a beast, with 4 Thrag's and some Thundermaws, or even a flipped huntmaster or ****, a resto angel in a tight spot, Garruk can come down and fill your hand. Not to mention, if they tapped out for Verdict and you come back with a PH, what are they going to do? Naya midrange does not have to overextend to win. T2 smiters and Reckoners put on immense pressure, and running huntmaster & restoration angel means you can (and should) let huntmaster flip as often as possible. These keep resources in your hand and let you not only out value control on the board, but retain better hand advantage. Cards like Domri do just that as well (though I do side him out for big garruk). Assemble the legion is notably less impactful than Garruk, only because if they do have the sphere or o-ring, at least with PH you still have a 3/3 beast. Assemble you tapped out for no reason.
Permission should not be an issue with a creature heavy build and caverns, especially with so many humans. The only real issue is if the game drags on to where a big sphinx's is cast. Never more on sphinx is a great way to keep them from closing out the long games, but control decks just durdle right now during the early game. Apart from american dropping Reckoners, esper and u/w flash have pathetic openers (cycle, cycle, bolas, cycle, resto bolas) they're trying to just buy time till they can wipe, sphinx and win. The better way to beat them is not to slow down and try to out-counter the control decks, but to remain aggressive and put them on tilt early on. When you compare what the PW's in Green give us, it just seems more logical than Assemble. My teammate runs american and we playtest all the time. I've yet to find a control matchup I find unfavorable, especially post board.
There's very little blue can do if they tap out for verdict, you eat it, drop PH next turn with a 3/3 beast on board...then proceed to drop another 5 drop and draw 5 cards...now with a thrag or thundermaw on field, a beast token and a full grip.
Boros Charm, Relentless, Primal Hunter, Conscripts...we have every answer we need to control. I love when UWr taps out for assemble thinking it will buy them time only for me to be sitting on o-ring, aurelia or thundermaw. IMO it's just not the value a midrange build is looking for.
Edit: not to mention Kessig Wolf Run....chumps should not be an issue
went 3/2 this past FNM with 2 Assemble the Legion n my sideboard. Sadly, I did not play any true control decks but the card was worth its weight in gold against two Jund opponents.
Match 1 Game 2 I sided it in because my Jundo opponent and I kinda bounced off each other. he lands Thragtusk, I land thragtusk. Back and forth but his instant speed removal kinda gave me the short end of game 1. Assemble the Legion won me game 2 and I ende dup winning without it game 3.
Match 4 game 2 I sided in against a nearly identical deck. It won me game 2 but I dropped game 3 after a mulligan to 5.
I think a better question is if there is a reasonable way to leverage this card as a main deck strategy and just be incidentally good against control cause its there. The big thing these decks are missing are manlands. Assemble gives similar type of feel. It's possible now with Aurelia in print there are lines where it is swingy enough that jamming this on T3 is a reasonable play since it moves towards inevitability.
What I really wonder is with all them dorks and the potential to just go over the top if Gavony Township style decks have potential to return. I realize that isn't the deck everyone is playing but I want to sleeve up some Huntmasters, Resto Angels, Geist Honored Monks, maybe a Thundermaw or 2, some Assembles, Aurelias, and a bunch of Gavonies and see if it gets there. With a list like that you sort of have room to ignore what everyone else is doing in the format and pretty much skimp on removal since you will be chumping or swinging in to a degree that even Thragtusk lifegain may be irrelevant. I even wonder if Domri fits in that sort of shell to endlessly stream creatures or to double as a fighting mechanism. What Assemble gives while people aren't playing much enchantment hate is the mechanism to keep going even if all your resources get 1 for 1'd. That is something that +3/+3 creature enchantment could never quite do at 6. But I suppose that is completely different discussion.
Most of this discussion seems to focus on the control applications, but I've been testing this card as part of a 'go big' strategy against non-Junk-Rites midrange after sideboarding, and the results are encouraging.
Diversifying your threats away from creatures is good with so much bonfire/mortars/verdict being played, and I've actually found it incredibly effective at turning games around or pushing through against various forms of midrange; if it were just for very slow durdly control I would indeed probably play boros charm or garruk, primal hunter as alternative non-creatures instead. But those cards don't help you when you are actually somewhat on the defensive.
A typical-ish situation that might help illustrate what I'm talking about is a naya or Jund opponent who has gone farseek-huntmaster-thragtusk while you've just had a pilgrim and a loxodon smiter. Assemble in these types of situations normally just wins, assuming your remaining cards in your hand are at least of comparable power level to theirs. They can possibly kill your smiter and attack for 9...but that'll probably be almost the last damage they do (yes, yes, kessig wolf run from them practically kills you here. But that's a nut-draw, and it was probably killing you anyway.)
Note boros charm does next-to-nothing here, and garruk is ok as a 'draw 4 cards' but you'll probably be dead before they can be used effectively, while after making a beast garruk probably hasn't got long to live.
For the record, I play thundermaws alongside them so I haven't really thought about that comparision as much; generally I think thundermaw is probably better though.
Edit: Thinking about it, the best way to describe the effect is that it's like a PW ticking up to ultimate while adding board presence (like sorin or old Elspeth). Unlike the other two, this lack aggressive applications. But also unlike the others, it's immune to creatures. That's the trade-off you're making.
I've been giving assemble a go recently myself, but as part of a shift more towards a gavony style deck. It has done pretty well in general and one of the things I've come to realize after landing Assembly is that very few decks have a MB way of dealing with it. The rest of my deck shift towards Gavony I am somewhat more hesitant about. Geist is great and in particular amazing with Assemble, but I'm not sure about its real power in the five slot compared to the sheer resilience of Thragtusk and the face punching of Thundermaw.
If anyone has any other good suggestions for what to add/tryout give me a shout.
Assemble is a better g1 card than g2, I think. Acidic Slime is huge right now and eats this card up, not to mention the odd O-Rings still flying around. Against decks like Jund, Junk and Naya midrange, I'd be wary leaning on Assemble g2 & 3. If it fits into your MB, it's def a great way to get ahead if your opponent can't answer it. But, like mentioned, our other 5 drops are so good, it might be tough to squeeze into the MB.
Many people posting are really not thinking properly about this card. It is a great card to back-up with mid-range to late-game creatures like Resto Angel, Aurelia, and Angel of Serenity. What do control decks all have in common? Lots of creature removal, from Azorius Charm to Liliana to Tragic Slip to burn spells. NONE of these are answers to Assemble the Legion, but they do slow down hasted single creatures like Thundermaw. I like to think of Assemble the Legion as a different mode of attack in a mid-range deck--if an opponent is handling your singleton creatures, make them deal with a hasted swarm.
UWR has NO answer MD if they don't counter it. Esper Control often has 1, maybe 2, Planar Cleansing--but that's it. Jund has all sorts of burn, sac effects, etc., but nothing to get rid of Assemble the Legion MD. Those of you saying that Jund will kill you before Assemble the Legion gets going are failing to acknowledge the rest of the creatures in the Naya Deck--typically, Thragtusk, Resto, Loxodon Smiter, Aurelia, and Angel of Serenity. Garruk is often included as well alongside the Legion. Naya has time to get Assemble going against all of the above decks.
Against agro it's not an all-star, but if the board stalls to mid-game, it can still pack a punch. And Naya can easily do that if the Aggro deck doesn't get a good draw. Add in some burn like Mizzium Mortars to deal with aggro.
Sure, Acid Slimes, O-rings and Spheres can get rid of it, but there aren't that many floating around in any one deck.
Thoughts, feed back, ideas appreciated.
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I hear you there, Garruk, Primal Hunter is a pain to land as well.
I'm not necessarily convinced that control is our worst matchup (depends what version of the deck you're talking about, but I think jund midrange and UWR flash are bigger bogies), but if it is a matchup you have issues with then it seems like a card.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Updated 11/01/13
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This is a very strong card in the right situation, but it definitely takes a while to get going.
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To touch briefly on the Nevermores; I felt that the biggest issue for Naya (midrange specifically) is that it’s almost impossible NOT to overextend into a sweeper – you can’t win before or immediately after a sweeper and you can’t apply pressure with just one threat. The nail in the coffin however, is the life gain and card advantage from Sphinx’s Revelation that makes the game neigh unwinnable. I theorize that, by naming Sphinx’s Revelation on Nevermore, you deny your opponent almost all card advantage. My card quality is higher than my control opponents card quality so, if I can shut down my opponents card advantage I should win. Additionally, Nevermore psudo-doubles as Rest In Peace vs reanimator decks and I was tired of giving up two sideboard slots to what is mostly a fringe deck in my meta.
But, to the subject of the thread: Assemble the Legion. The problem with Naya (midrange specifically) is that once we’re derailed off our plan and dumped into top-deck mode we’re dead in the water vs control. Even if you DRAW a threat, you’re opponent has a way to deal with it because he’s usually holding a full hand. Assemble the Legion however functions as psudo-card advantage as well as providing a way to continue to apply pressure against the control players major defenses.
Thragstusks can only block one token, Sorin Vampire tokens can only block one token, Azorious Charm only deals with one token, Supreme Verdict and Terminus hits all your tokens but you’re still a threat on your next turn, Lingering Souls gives your opponent 4 blockers but your attackers come back.
The key to using this card, in my opinion, is changing your thinking about how to play vs control. Getting to 5 mana is no issue for us. So, the plan is to play as many threats as quickly as possible – willfully overextend. This will force your opponent to sweep at 4 to 6 mana which will give YOU the freedom to jam Assemble the Legion when your opponent is tapped out.
Barring the occasional O-ring or D-sphere which will generally be a 0-to-2-of in your opponents deck, you should be ok so long as you are ALSO running plains walkers main deck (specifically, little Garruk or Domri) that provide you with an additional non-creature threat.
Now, when you’re talking 5-drops, the counterargument to Assemble the Legion is Big Garruk. The problem I have found with Garruk is that the tokens can’t get by chumps and he will invariably die to a restoration angel in 2 or 3 turns. While both Assemble the Legion and Garruk are vulnerable to O-ring and D-sphere, only Garruk is vulnerable to creatures. Additionally, while Garruk gives you 3 power on board every turn if left unmolested, Assemble the Legion gives you X+Y power AND X+Y DAMAGE every turn where X is the number of tokens you had in play previously and Y is the number of tokens you put in play on your turn. People THINK Garruk “does something” when he hits the field because he puts a token in play. Actually, unless that token is a blocker (which it is not when you’re in the control matchup), Garruk and Assemble the Legion both “do something” in terms of damage on the same turn – the turn AFTER they come into play.
Now, I will close with a reminder that this is mostly theory and I will not have an opportunity to really put the theory to the test until tomorrow night’s FNM. Goldfish who land T4 Verdict every game and casual opponents hardly count as a real test.
Assemble doesn't draw you cards. Garruk doesn't just have to come in and make a beast, with 4 Thrag's and some Thundermaws, or even a flipped huntmaster or ****, a resto angel in a tight spot, Garruk can come down and fill your hand. Not to mention, if they tapped out for Verdict and you come back with a PH, what are they going to do? Naya midrange does not have to overextend to win. T2 smiters and Reckoners put on immense pressure, and running huntmaster & restoration angel means you can (and should) let huntmaster flip as often as possible. These keep resources in your hand and let you not only out value control on the board, but retain better hand advantage. Cards like Domri do just that as well (though I do side him out for big garruk). Assemble the legion is notably less impactful than Garruk, only because if they do have the sphere or o-ring, at least with PH you still have a 3/3 beast. Assemble you tapped out for no reason.
Permission should not be an issue with a creature heavy build and caverns, especially with so many humans. The only real issue is if the game drags on to where a big sphinx's is cast. Never more on sphinx is a great way to keep them from closing out the long games, but control decks just durdle right now during the early game. Apart from american dropping Reckoners, esper and u/w flash have pathetic openers (cycle, cycle, bolas, cycle, resto bolas) they're trying to just buy time till they can wipe, sphinx and win. The better way to beat them is not to slow down and try to out-counter the control decks, but to remain aggressive and put them on tilt early on. When you compare what the PW's in Green give us, it just seems more logical than Assemble. My teammate runs american and we playtest all the time. I've yet to find a control matchup I find unfavorable, especially post board.
There's very little blue can do if they tap out for verdict, you eat it, drop PH next turn with a 3/3 beast on board...then proceed to drop another 5 drop and draw 5 cards...now with a thrag or thundermaw on field, a beast token and a full grip.
Boros Charm, Relentless, Primal Hunter, Conscripts...we have every answer we need to control. I love when UWr taps out for assemble thinking it will buy them time only for me to be sitting on o-ring, aurelia or thundermaw. IMO it's just not the value a midrange build is looking for.
Edit: not to mention Kessig Wolf Run....chumps should not be an issue
Match 1 Game 2 I sided it in because my Jundo opponent and I kinda bounced off each other. he lands Thragtusk, I land thragtusk. Back and forth but his instant speed removal kinda gave me the short end of game 1. Assemble the Legion won me game 2 and I ende dup winning without it game 3.
Match 4 game 2 I sided in against a nearly identical deck. It won me game 2 but I dropped game 3 after a mulligan to 5.
Early results are encouraging.
What I really wonder is with all them dorks and the potential to just go over the top if Gavony Township style decks have potential to return. I realize that isn't the deck everyone is playing but I want to sleeve up some Huntmasters, Resto Angels, Geist Honored Monks, maybe a Thundermaw or 2, some Assembles, Aurelias, and a bunch of Gavonies and see if it gets there. With a list like that you sort of have room to ignore what everyone else is doing in the format and pretty much skimp on removal since you will be chumping or swinging in to a degree that even Thragtusk lifegain may be irrelevant. I even wonder if Domri fits in that sort of shell to endlessly stream creatures or to double as a fighting mechanism. What Assemble gives while people aren't playing much enchantment hate is the mechanism to keep going even if all your resources get 1 for 1'd. That is something that +3/+3 creature enchantment could never quite do at 6. But I suppose that is completely different discussion.
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Diversifying your threats away from creatures is good with so much bonfire/mortars/verdict being played, and I've actually found it incredibly effective at turning games around or pushing through against various forms of midrange; if it were just for very slow durdly control I would indeed probably play boros charm or garruk, primal hunter as alternative non-creatures instead. But those cards don't help you when you are actually somewhat on the defensive.
A typical-ish situation that might help illustrate what I'm talking about is a naya or Jund opponent who has gone farseek-huntmaster-thragtusk while you've just had a pilgrim and a loxodon smiter. Assemble in these types of situations normally just wins, assuming your remaining cards in your hand are at least of comparable power level to theirs. They can possibly kill your smiter and attack for 9...but that'll probably be almost the last damage they do (yes, yes, kessig wolf run from them practically kills you here. But that's a nut-draw, and it was probably killing you anyway.)
Note boros charm does next-to-nothing here, and garruk is ok as a 'draw 4 cards' but you'll probably be dead before they can be used effectively, while after making a beast garruk probably hasn't got long to live.
For the record, I play thundermaws alongside them so I haven't really thought about that comparision as much; generally I think thundermaw is probably better though.
Edit: Thinking about it, the best way to describe the effect is that it's like a PW ticking up to ultimate while adding board presence (like sorin or old Elspeth). Unlike the other two, this lack aggressive applications. But also unlike the others, it's immune to creatures. That's the trade-off you're making.
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
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If anyone has any other good suggestions for what to add/tryout give me a shout.
UWR has NO answer MD if they don't counter it. Esper Control often has 1, maybe 2, Planar Cleansing--but that's it. Jund has all sorts of burn, sac effects, etc., but nothing to get rid of Assemble the Legion MD. Those of you saying that Jund will kill you before Assemble the Legion gets going are failing to acknowledge the rest of the creatures in the Naya Deck--typically, Thragtusk, Resto, Loxodon Smiter, Aurelia, and Angel of Serenity. Garruk is often included as well alongside the Legion. Naya has time to get Assemble going against all of the above decks.
Against agro it's not an all-star, but if the board stalls to mid-game, it can still pack a punch. And Naya can easily do that if the Aggro deck doesn't get a good draw. Add in some burn like Mizzium Mortars to deal with aggro.
Sure, Acid Slimes, O-rings and Spheres can get rid of it, but there aren't that many floating around in any one deck.