I've seen versions of the deck that splash green for Abrupt Decay (hits creatures, Dsphere, Connections) and Golgari Charm (hits enchantments and answers aggro relatively well).
Has anyone tried this? And is it worth the mana consistency issues that you get from adding a splash?
I've tried it out. Mana is definitely an issue, but you get better matchups against control and monoblack mirror. However, it's weaker against the rest of the field.
I've looked at a few of the decklists, and it seems like it takes out a Whip, Ultimate Price and maybe Erebos for 4 Decays and 1 Golgari Charm main.
So... for the most part in terms of removal we're talking Ultimate Price for Decay. So we lose the ability to hit cards like Desecration Demon (mostly just relevant in the mirror), Master of Waves, Polukranos, Arbor Collossus, Ruric Thar, Gary, etc and in return gain the ability to hit Domri, Underworld Connections, Hammer, DSphere, Ajani, and cheap multi colored <3 drops.
Should we discuss the white splash in this thread or the main thread? The white splash is to add obzedat and/or blood baron along with a few sideboard cards. I love playing with the white splash because drawing one of those two cards impacts the game heavily in a lot of match ups.
Should we discuss the white splash in this thread or the main thread? The white splash is to add obzedat and/or blood baron along with a few sideboard cards. I love playing with the white splash because drawing one of those two cards impacts the game heavily in a lot of match ups.
I personally don't think it's too big of a deal one way or the other. I've hung around a couple of different proven subforums. Last year I frequented Jund and Junk Rites. And every now and then you would get someone talking about adding a splash color or something slightly off topic, a few people would discuss it and then someone would bring up a new topic and people would talk about that. Sometimes people would create a new thread on the splash instead... and the same thing would happen.
So the short answer is, it's okay one way or the other. I think people got a little upset that people were talking about splashing a color in a thread called mono black devotion, but when we're talking about a difference of a few cards I don't see the big issue. It would be no different than if you were to suggest Abrupt Decay as a card over Ultimate Price in the deck.
I'm actually kind of interested in talking about the white splash as well. The only thing though is I feel in this current meta where a lot of the decks aren't that interactive. Obzedat isn't utilizing it's strength of being hard to hit. It would still be good against mono black and esper, but not mono blue, G/R, and mono red devotion.
I think why I was wondering about the green splash is I got a few games in against Esper and got swept. Only drew TS and Connections once, so maybe it's just variance but I feel like that should be a good matchup. But one of the big things that killed me was Detention Sphere. It was their only way to deal with stuff like Whip and Connections once those cards got into play (well, Pithing Needle too).
I personally don't think it's too big of a deal one way or the other. I've hung around a couple of different proven subforums. Last year I frequented Jund and Junk Rites. And every now and then you would get someone talking about adding a splash color or something slightly off topic, a few people would discuss it and then someone would bring up a new topic and people would talk about that. Sometimes people would create a new thread on the splash instead... and the same thing would happen.
So the short answer is, it's okay one way or the other. I think people got a little upset that people were talking about splashing a color in a thread called mono black devotion, but when we're talking about a difference of a few cards I don't see the big issue. It would be no different than if you were to suggest Abrupt Decay as a card over Ultimate Price in the deck.
I'm actually kind of interested in talking about the white splash as well. The only thing though is I feel in this current meta where a lot of the decks aren't that interactive. Obzedat isn't utilizing it's strength of being hard to hit. It would still be good against mono black and esper, but not mono blue, G/R, and mono red devotion.
I think why I was wondering about the green splash is I got a few games in against Esper and got swept. Only drew TS and Connections once, so maybe it's just variance but I feel like that should be a good matchup. But one of the big things that killed me was Detention Sphere. It was their only way to deal with stuff like Whip and Connections once those cards got into play (well, Pithing Needle too).
I don't know why they were being so hostile about adding a few cards for the splash. All of the decks were still focusing on devotion to black and changed around a few things. For the esper match up I used Sin Collector and pithing needle. My thoughtseize, blood baron of vizpoka and obzedat along with gary did pretty well for me. Obzedat still helps with lifelink from coming into play and using the whip on him after he gets destroyed can be brutal.
I'm playing 2 Merciless Eviction in the 75 as my only splash.
I don't think Blood Baron is worth the effort - in fact I think it's the effort to play all the best cards that makes the RWB deck so "meh". We have whip and Gary already, and I don't think he does enough that they don't to cover the mana downsides.
I can't play Obzedat as it's a more extreme case of the same thing. If I were going to run him, I'd bite the bullet and play the full RWB
Merciless Eviction I'm finding to be a different story. Firstly I'm managing it with only 5 BW lands (and I think 4 might be okay) and secondly it does stuff we simply can't do otherwise. (Remove Detention Sphere/Assemble. Sweep walkers or tokens, general surprise value)
I used to want to cut a Gary too, but I'm now finding that he's just too good for stabilizing. Also I don't always maindeck Erebos but I think he's got to be better than Obzedat.
Arrest, IMO, is horrible. It doesn't deal with devotion and as we're playing black, we have access to all kinds of removal.
I might be missing something with Sundering Growth, but even with 8 white sources I'd think Merciless Eviction is better as you're probably not casting it until you have 5-6 mana anyway.
Blind Obedience seems interesting, I'd like to know how that goes for you.
The Blood Baron in particular I can't realistically talk anyone out of. My "dislike" for it (strong word, good card is good) comes from having found him to always only really have one ability turned on that wouldn't be on in other cards. He will ALWAYS appear strong and I think that's a slight illusion... well worth thinking what else he could be whenever you cast him.
Again, I could well be wrong on him but I don't feel he maximizes efficiency and in fact I think the weird overlap of things like whip/baron are what makes the RWB fail to be tier 1, as card for card they play better cards than us.
As to Obzedat, obviously the whip thing is hilarious and good, but I think if you've got the mana and scenario to set that up, you've probably won if he's an Erebos anyway.
I think the main reason you can't talk anyone out of blood baron is in certain matchups he can just win the game for you. One of the hardest matchups for Mono black is the mirror and if you have blood baron in hand then you can do some damage. Against Esper he can present some serious problems as well. The esper player would have to use a supreme verdict to take care of him. In some matchups he dominates. I understand where you're coming from and I think Blood Baron should definitely be a sideboard card.
So far, Blind Obedience does a great job against fast aggro decks (haste creatures) and i could sideboard in Shrivel, although Golgari Charm is much better than Shrivel because of its versatilely.
As I urgently need sleep, my report in raw unrefined form: forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?b=9522
Is in my blog on this forum.
Blind Obedience delays the inevitable and is a waste of a card slot…
Isnt the green splash essentially what the rock has become (based on its own thread in established?)
I guess the biggest thing is its really hard to play nightveil specter in that deck. Unless you are playing sylvan caraytids as well
Isnt the green splash essentially what the rock has become (based on its own thread in established?)
I guess the biggest thing is its really hard to play nightveil specter in that deck. Unless you are playing sylvan caraytids as well
2 entire different entities.
1 play forests with swamps, another has 0 basic forests.
B/g has mostly green spells as non-permanent spells and splashes for better removal.
I use High Priest and he works pretty well for me considering he can kill a planeswalker, artifact, enchantment or another monster. Sin Collector is amazing against Esper. He gives you a body and takes a card from their hand. If you play him with duress, Esper players will hate you. Pharika's Cure can be used instead of High Priest. For Shrivel and Illness in the Ranks they are too specific and will be dead cards. I've won 3 FNM's with my Black devotion with white splash deck.
I use High Priest and he works pretty well for me considering he can kill a planeswalker, artifact, enchantment or another monster. Sin Collector is amazing against Esper. He gives you a body and takes a card from their hand. If you play him with duress, Esper players will hate you. Pharika's Cure can be used instead of High Priest. For Shrivel and Illness in the Ranks they are too specific and will be dead cards. I've won 3 FNM's with my Black devotion with white splash deck.
I agree with a lot of your reasoning, however have to take issue with the last sentence. I won an FNM and very narrowly lost in the finals of the M14 Game day with a Angelic Accord/Angel post home brew (and that was only because my opponent in the finals was a good friend who knew what i was playing and brought about 5 cards in his sideboard just in case he had to play me). Anyway the point im making is winning FNM, regardless of how good you think the other players are is not reason to think a deck is correct.
I've played with the White splash before and Blind Obedience has always been a great card for me. At worst it slows them down a turn and then you just think of every removal spell in your hand as costing more
~6 - 7 Games today and totally couldnt win at least 1 time against him.
His fast mana ramping/"draw luck" is everytimt 1 or 2 steps ahead of me.
Thats insanely frustrating.
If i was going to a GP or PTQ etc then no, but for my local FNM i absolutely intend to do the same, whilst im not pro by any means i easily have a 75% or more win rate at my LGS (if im one of the best players in the store, it gives you an idea about the overall quality ) Except when playing against Colossal Gruul, granted i don't get creamed every time but id say it certainly beats me more than i beat it (mainly due to the frequency of nut draws i have to face, but even the average games seem 50/50 at best). The only problem is figuring out exactly what cards are best for that match.
Lifebane is obviously a house, though whenever i bring in Duress i just see the Arbor Colossus/Polukranos hand and get steam rolled as i have less removal.
Any thoughts on what other cards are best for the Sideboad against them? I almost want to just try and fight back on the same kind of terms (big giant creatures) and play some Hythonia's and Arbhorent Overlords
Well, i disagree with being weaker against the rest of the field, in case of aggro matchups.
Golgari Charm also does a really nice job against small fries. Also, Abrupt Decay is a bomb vs. aggro matchups, killing every cmc 3 permanent (creatures and hammer).
You also gain access to Gaze of Granite which can server as a board sweeper for you.
just my opinion
I can't think of a single card in the deck I would remove for a golgari charm.
~6 - 7 Games today and totally couldnt win at least 1 time against him.
His fast mana ramping/"draw luck" is everytimt 1 or 2 steps ahead of me.
Thats insanely frustrating.
my advice is to add some more spot removal to your board probably get rid of the sundering growth. for 2 more doomblades. then put the lifebane in over the specters. also if your on the play and he drops a mystic kill it asap. you have more card advantage then he does as long as you can kill or seize garruk so deal with that and then try to 1 for 1 his fatties it shouldn't be that hard of a match up to win really.
EDIT: wait a second just looked over your list at the top and i realized you posted 30 cards with out lands now i assume your running 25 lands like the rest of us? so what are in the last 5 spots ? i assume 4 connections so if you have an extra slot put some more removal in it what ever one suits your meta the best
Oh I agree completely with you. I have the high priests in specifically because of my local meta. When my local PTQ comes around in January I intend to have a more tested out deck that I will make a impact with. I will probably go more mono black with a small white splash for 2 Obzedat in the main and 3 blood barons in the sideboard and 3 merciless evictions.
@TheDriver I guess I should give shrivel a try but I like Merciless Eviction a lot more. Against a lot of ramp decks it can mess them up.
cutting a land, and increasing the curve with two extra five-drops seems pretty bad. the deck doesn't Obzedat either because we play four copies of Gray Merchant which can give you several turns of Obzedat triggers all at once. nightveil specter gives the most devotion and his ability is pretty powerful too, he should be ran as a play set.
Ive played a decent amount of the green splash. In many ways it helps with problematic permanents making opposing Connections and Specters trivial. You don't get locked out on dead Doom Blades/Prices as often. On paper the mana investment looks so trivial and the upside large. In reality the mana investment can be trivial if you don't go too heavy on guildgates, but the upside not as large as you'd think. Against aggro Golgari Charm and Gaze can be decent, but not that different than not paying the life for a shock and having another point and kill removal. Against control buying back your connections is better than dead doom blades but the cost in tempo is only mildly worse for them than you not having it. We still can't grind them out ultimately. It's more that we can draw too many cards early to mid game before they hit stride. In the mirror we have access to a few more tricks but it doesnt actually play out much different than the identical mirror. It's all about getting to a point where you are untapped and have a mechanism to generate CA.
Even so all the things above should be subtle improvements and they are. But the impact of different individual cards is so low in this format generally that it's hard to actually tell if the usual perfectly acceptable small splash actually is worth the consistency of mana.
Now the white splash is probably different if pushing it changes the Gray Merchant plan. But the green splash while appearing more robust is generally the same deck to the point it's really hard to say much conclusively on it. I prefer the green splash but I suspect it's probably generally worse if just by a hair.
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It seems to me there are two types of Mono B devotion decks currently - a beatdown version and a control version. I play a control version using Elspeth, Obzedat, and Obzedat's Aid and play a slightly more reanimator-style.
The other styles of Mono B such as beatdown don't really need to splash & if they want to splash they are probably looking at red for more removal anyways. This kind of deck might be more consistent judging from what I've seen BUT it's also got less range for those longer, grindy games.
i really think you have to have 4 specters. they make the merchants so much better plus the 2/3 is really good at stoping a lot of little threat and allowing you to reach those later turns when we have better CA. as for the G/R match up like i said you should be able to win it simply by playing one for one and doing your best to not let garruk get and make a mess of things. that deck runs out of gas and every creature in it dies to all of your removal.
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Has anyone tried this? And is it worth the mana consistency issues that you get from adding a splash?
So... for the most part in terms of removal we're talking Ultimate Price for Decay. So we lose the ability to hit cards like Desecration Demon (mostly just relevant in the mirror), Master of Waves, Polukranos, Arbor Collossus, Ruric Thar, Gary, etc and in return gain the ability to hit Domri, Underworld Connections, Hammer, DSphere, Ajani, and cheap multi colored <3 drops.
I personally don't think it's too big of a deal one way or the other. I've hung around a couple of different proven subforums. Last year I frequented Jund and Junk Rites. And every now and then you would get someone talking about adding a splash color or something slightly off topic, a few people would discuss it and then someone would bring up a new topic and people would talk about that. Sometimes people would create a new thread on the splash instead... and the same thing would happen.
So the short answer is, it's okay one way or the other. I think people got a little upset that people were talking about splashing a color in a thread called mono black devotion, but when we're talking about a difference of a few cards I don't see the big issue. It would be no different than if you were to suggest Abrupt Decay as a card over Ultimate Price in the deck.
I'm actually kind of interested in talking about the white splash as well. The only thing though is I feel in this current meta where a lot of the decks aren't that interactive. Obzedat isn't utilizing it's strength of being hard to hit. It would still be good against mono black and esper, but not mono blue, G/R, and mono red devotion.
I think why I was wondering about the green splash is I got a few games in against Esper and got swept. Only drew TS and Connections once, so maybe it's just variance but I feel like that should be a good matchup. But one of the big things that killed me was Detention Sphere. It was their only way to deal with stuff like Whip and Connections once those cards got into play (well, Pithing Needle too).
I don't know why they were being so hostile about adding a few cards for the splash. All of the decks were still focusing on devotion to black and changed around a few things. For the esper match up I used Sin Collector and pithing needle. My thoughtseize, blood baron of vizpoka and obzedat along with gary did pretty well for me. Obzedat still helps with lifelink from coming into play and using the whip on him after he gets destroyed can be brutal.
I don't think Blood Baron is worth the effort - in fact I think it's the effort to play all the best cards that makes the RWB deck so "meh". We have whip and Gary already, and I don't think he does enough that they don't to cover the mana downsides.
I can't play Obzedat as it's a more extreme case of the same thing. If I were going to run him, I'd bite the bullet and play the full RWB
Merciless Eviction I'm finding to be a different story. Firstly I'm managing it with only 5 BW lands (and I think 4 might be okay) and secondly it does stuff we simply can't do otherwise. (Remove Detention Sphere/Assemble. Sweep walkers or tokens, general surprise value)
I used to want to cut a Gary too, but I'm now finding that he's just too good for stabilizing. Also I don't always maindeck Erebos but I think he's got to be better than Obzedat.
Arrest, IMO, is horrible. It doesn't deal with devotion and as we're playing black, we have access to all kinds of removal.
I might be missing something with Sundering Growth, but even with 8 white sources I'd think Merciless Eviction is better as you're probably not casting it until you have 5-6 mana anyway.
Blind Obedience seems interesting, I'd like to know how that goes for you.
Again, I could well be wrong on him but I don't feel he maximizes efficiency and in fact I think the weird overlap of things like whip/baron are what makes the RWB fail to be tier 1, as card for card they play better cards than us.
As to Obzedat, obviously the whip thing is hilarious and good, but I think if you've got the mana and scenario to set that up, you've probably won if he's an Erebos anyway.
Well that's up to you.
As for me I prefer losing to my opponents over losing to my own mana base.
Driver, why are you swapped to the B/W variant?
B/G handles aggro better and its our worst matchup, it helps to go lower and not higher.
Pretty much the only 5 drop acceptable in this deck is Gary and only Gary.
I've finished my GPT in top 8 and will write a report plus probably a new subthread for the green splash exclusively.
It will include comparisons and factor in results of GP Alburquerque which I've been watching fervently thru midnight(I'm in asia).
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
As I urgently need sleep, my report in raw unrefined form: forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?b=9522
Is in my blog on this forum.
Blind Obedience delays the inevitable and is a waste of a card slot…
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
I guess the biggest thing is its really hard to play nightveil specter in that deck. Unless you are playing sylvan caraytids as well
2 entire different entities.
1 play forests with swamps, another has 0 basic forests.
B/g has mostly green spells as non-permanent spells and splashes for better removal.
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
I use High Priest and he works pretty well for me considering he can kill a planeswalker, artifact, enchantment or another monster. Sin Collector is amazing against Esper. He gives you a body and takes a card from their hand. If you play him with duress, Esper players will hate you. Pharika's Cure can be used instead of High Priest. For Shrivel and Illness in the Ranks they are too specific and will be dead cards. I've won 3 FNM's with my Black devotion with white splash deck.
I agree with a lot of your reasoning, however have to take issue with the last sentence. I won an FNM and very narrowly lost in the finals of the M14 Game day with a Angelic Accord/Angel post home brew (and that was only because my opponent in the finals was a good friend who knew what i was playing and brought about 5 cards in his sideboard just in case he had to play me). Anyway the point im making is winning FNM, regardless of how good you think the other players are is not reason to think a deck is correct.
If i was going to a GP or PTQ etc then no, but for my local FNM i absolutely intend to do the same, whilst im not pro by any means i easily have a 75% or more win rate at my LGS (if im one of the best players in the store, it gives you an idea about the overall quality ) Except when playing against Colossal Gruul, granted i don't get creamed every time but id say it certainly beats me more than i beat it (mainly due to the frequency of nut draws i have to face, but even the average games seem 50/50 at best). The only problem is figuring out exactly what cards are best for that match.
Lifebane is obviously a house, though whenever i bring in Duress i just see the Arbor Colossus/Polukranos hand and get steam rolled as i have less removal.
Any thoughts on what other cards are best for the Sideboad against them? I almost want to just try and fight back on the same kind of terms (big giant creatures) and play some Hythonia's and Arbhorent Overlords
I can't think of a single card in the deck I would remove for a golgari charm.
my advice is to add some more spot removal to your board probably get rid of the sundering growth. for 2 more doomblades. then put the lifebane in over the specters. also if your on the play and he drops a mystic kill it asap. you have more card advantage then he does as long as you can kill or seize garruk so deal with that and then try to 1 for 1 his fatties it shouldn't be that hard of a match up to win really.
EDIT: wait a second just looked over your list at the top and i realized you posted 30 cards with out lands now i assume your running 25 lands like the rest of us? so what are in the last 5 spots ? i assume 4 connections so if you have an extra slot put some more removal in it what ever one suits your meta the best
Oh I agree completely with you. I have the high priests in specifically because of my local meta. When my local PTQ comes around in January I intend to have a more tested out deck that I will make a impact with. I will probably go more mono black with a small white splash for 2 Obzedat in the main and 3 blood barons in the sideboard and 3 merciless evictions.
@TheDriver I guess I should give shrivel a try but I like Merciless Eviction a lot more. Against a lot of ramp decks it can mess them up.
cutting a land, and increasing the curve with two extra five-drops seems pretty bad. the deck doesn't Obzedat either because we play four copies of Gray Merchant which can give you several turns of Obzedat triggers all at once. nightveil specter gives the most devotion and his ability is pretty powerful too, he should be ran as a play set.
Even so all the things above should be subtle improvements and they are. But the impact of different individual cards is so low in this format generally that it's hard to actually tell if the usual perfectly acceptable small splash actually is worth the consistency of mana.
Now the white splash is probably different if pushing it changes the Gray Merchant plan. But the green splash while appearing more robust is generally the same deck to the point it's really hard to say much conclusively on it. I prefer the green splash but I suspect it's probably generally worse if just by a hair.
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The other styles of Mono B such as beatdown don't really need to splash & if they want to splash they are probably looking at red for more removal anyways. This kind of deck might be more consistent judging from what I've seen BUT it's also got less range for those longer, grindy games.
i really think you have to have 4 specters. they make the merchants so much better plus the 2/3 is really good at stoping a lot of little threat and allowing you to reach those later turns when we have better CA. as for the G/R match up like i said you should be able to win it simply by playing one for one and doing your best to not let garruk get and make a mess of things. that deck runs out of gas and every creature in it dies to all of your removal.