I did a LOT of testing vs. R(b) Aggro today (runs a lot of Haste stuff and burn), about 12 games in a row, and I did much better with the Sorin/LS version game 1. I did not win a single game vs. the deck with the all-mill.
I also played 6 games against a 5 color control deck and there was no question that the Sorin/LS deck did better for me, especially with 2 Dissipate main and 2 Negate in the side.
I did a LOT of testing vs. R(b) Aggro today (runs a lot of Haste stuff and burn), about 12 games in a row, and I did much better with the Sorin/LS version game 1. I did not win a single game vs. the deck with the all-mill.
I also played 6 games against a 5 color control deck and there was no question that the Sorin/LS deck did better for me, especially with 2 Dissipate main and 2 Negate in the side.
I've been playing a lot of RB lately and this is my experience VS esper builds recently. The sorin/lingering souls versions can actually win games(via damage) which is sometimes relevant. If however they play something like lingering souls in the mid game to wall Aristocrat and I have hellkite mana, it's the equivalent of an upkeep Mistbind Clique with an extra point of power.
Generally, I think the mill decks have the advantage of playing more wraths in the form of terminus since that's the best answer to Aristocrat, and you get more miracles. Lingering souls opens you up to get Hellkite'd. Superfriends are also all inherently weak to hasty fliers.
Curse of deaths hold however is pretty sweet, but I'm not sure if I'd play more then one in the mainboard since it's dead versus control and the sixth wrath is probably better then the second curse.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Depends on what you value more. Land drops for better revelations or living to cast revelations. How good do you feel your deck is against aggro? Control? I personally play 4 think twice since I think hitting all the land drops is the most important thing and you gain like...a fraction of a percent on miracles.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I'm running 3 Think Twice and 4 Azorius Charm. Think Twice is a pretty awful card, and I only run it because constantly getting mana-screwed is annoying. If Control wasn't good right now, I would just run Ultimate Price instead, but the mirror is common and it's one of the best cards there.
On a side note, I think it's amazing that virtually nobody is running Augur of Bolas anymore. I still have 4 in my list and the card is great against Aggro. I don't even board it out against slower decks, since a 2 mana draw spell that only hits instants and sorceries is better than most cards in the mirror. If it happens to whiff, I'm 3 cards closer to drawing counterspells and Sphinx's Revelations.
I'm considering putting 2 Auger in my SB against aggro, cause they also help u draw into a sweeper, as well as stall, but mainly for sweepers.
However on Think Twice, you are seriously under rating the card. It single handedly gives you a T2 and T3 play, allowing you to keep mana up for other things, and still have a very good option if your opponent does nothing. It also fixes land drops SO well.
I run 3 Twice, 2 AZ Charm, 2 Revelation, 2 Alchemy, 4 Jace. I find that a good card draw suite. Diversity helps, and the cmc spread is nice.
I'm running 3 Think Twice and 4 Azorius Charm. Think Twice is a pretty awful card, and I only run it because constantly getting mana-screwed is annoying. If Control wasn't good right now, I would just run Ultimate Price instead, but the mirror is common and it's one of the best cards there.
On a side note, I think it's amazing that virtually nobody is running Augur of Bolas anymore. I still have 4 in my list and the card is great against Aggro. I don't even board it out against slower decks, since a 2 mana draw spell that only hits instants and sorceries is better than most cards in the mirror. If it happens to whiff, I'm 3 cards closer to drawing counterspells and Sphinx's Revelations.
I think I'd rather play Snapcaster Mage for the 2 spot as far as creatures go. Probably not more than 2 of though. More utility imho.
Depends on what you value more. Land drops for better revelations or living to cast revelations. How good do you feel your deck is against aggro? Control? I personally play 4 think twice since I think hitting all the land drops is the most important thing and you gain like...a fraction of a percent on miracles.
I feel good against aggro. The way my luck runs, it's land/digging where I run into issues, so there it is, I suppose.
@fans of Augur
I can't bring myself to do it. Sure, it digs for Instant/Sorcery, but it also whiffs a lot, and in our deck when it whiffs that is not just a bunch of lands, it is possibly also PWs and enchantments to the bottom of the deck. I have terrible luck. I could work in Vegas as a cooler. I can't have randomness like that, my decks need consistency.
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I feel good against aggro. The way my luck runs, it's land/digging where I run into issues, so there it is, I suppose.
@fans of Augur
I can't bring myself to do it. Sure, it digs for Instant/Sorcery, but it also whiffs a lot, and in our deck when it whiffs that is not just a bunch of lands, it is possibly also PWs and enchantments to the bottom of the deck. I have terrible luck. I could work in Vegas as a cooler. I can't have randomness like that, my decks need consistency.
Yea I agree totally. When you whiff with this deck it SUCKS. I just cannot see myself running these in my build.
I have only played casually of late, but I have been impressed with the no Augur, no Sorin, no Souls version of the deck. It feels much more smooth/consistent. Formerly, I was playing whatever list Soorani was playing but there were so many times when I missed a land drop and Augur would then tuck away three lands, or it would tuck away Runechanter's Pike, etc. I also like the four Sphinx's Revelation over just one or two. I was hesitant to play so many Revelations in a control deck with no mana acceleration but they have been solid for me.
Like I said though, I haven't played the list in a tournament so my experience may not have any value, but after a small sample size I am beginning to see why so many here felt removing Augur, Sorin, and Souls made the deck better. And trust me, I really enjoy Souls and Sorin as cards but they might not do as much in this deck as I first thought.
If people are salty when the Augur sends 3 lands to the bottom, you got to understand that that's the same type of logical fallacy that makes people scared to Drownyard themselves for value or makes them look at their next card on their deck before mulligans.
I think I said this before as well, but the card isn't bad when it whiffs against aggro 25% of the time because the 1/3 blocker is relevant. Relevant to the point of being one of the best cards in the matchup. Saving four damage, even, in the early turns can easily give you the extra turn you need to stabilize. Even if they kill it, that's their second turn wasted, which is a huge tempo boost for you. The fact that you have something like a 20% chance of flipping a Supreme Verdict if you haven't already drawn one just makes it better in that matchup. The lack of early interaction outside of Azorius Charm makes for matches where these decks can just Turn 4 you twice in a row. If you don't draw Charm, all you're doing is casting Think Twice and then untapping starring down lethal. The fact that we have a mini Baleful Strix variant that cantrips can help these things out.
Against Contol, the only thing that matters is drawing your key cards: counterspells and Sphinx's Revelations. But I suppose a lot of people these days put more stock in their planeswalkers than their spells. Personally I only have 3 planeswalkers and a single Drogskol Reaver, none of which I normally play until much later in the game. I don't even side out Augurs in these matchups.
Hey guys, I was wondering what you think about switching out detention spheres for planar cleansing?
I feel that the 3 new sweepers would be great against creature decks (obviously) and it would still deal with planeswalkers, while at the same time releasing any planeswalkers they might have sphered. As well as all of their enchantments and artifacts.
Here's what I have right now, it's pretty standard compared to other lists:
I want to replace the detention sphere's and one jace, architect of thought with planar cleansing in the main deck. And replace one oblivion ring with planar cleansing in the sideboard.
I'm also intrested in putting the sideboarded memory adept into the main deck, because I find myself siding him in every game, even when i remove the other walkers for fast aggro so I can finish up the game faster. But i don't know what to get rid of.
What do you guys think?
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I don't run any d spheres, and truth be told with lingering souls builds on the decline and rwu builds on the rise, flashy and hasty creatures are popular, and demand instant speed reactions, and d sphere is just a better o ring.
I don't run any d spheres, and truth be told with lingering souls builds on the decline and rwu builds on the rise, flashy and hasty creatures are popular, and demand instant speed reactions, and d sphere is just a better o ring.
How exactly do you deal with opposing Planeswalkers then?
I find that I am either able to counter Planeswalkers (as they usually come out around T4-6) or use my creatures to make short work of them. I admit, they may get a tick or two off if they happen to land, but they usually stay on the field far shorter than mine. I oddly find Vraska one of the harder walkers to deal with, she can be quite abusive if not handled promptly, but is pretty rare in the current meta.
On the off chance anyone cares, and because I happen to have my deck with me, I'll post my current list, with a recently added AZ Charm mb (3x), and some tweaking of the SB for a little more creature hate.
And yes, I know it is a quirky list, but it has worked really well for me, and I know 25 Lands is SUPER greedy, but it has worked out pretty well with the low cmc and the think twice/az charm for early land drops. With that said, bash away.
@rayman420
Seems like it would be weak to really aggressive decks, especially game 1, but I think control decks would just sort of get thrashed. 25 land is really greedy, sir. Admittedly, you don't have anything over 4 mana main except the two Revelations, but if you want to drop PWs with protection (counter or removal), you really need to get to 6-8 mana fairly consistently. I'd find space for O-Ring/D-Sphere for resolved shenanigans. Right now you have no way to deal with a resolved Witchbane Orb or Curse of Death's Hold. My deck from yesterday would eat you up games 2/3, especially since you want to land both Intangible Virtues and I would D-Sphere and hit them both.
@everyone
I modified my list based on yesterday's event. I went 1-1-2.
Round 1 vs. Fog Control 2-0
Not even close. Sorin game 1 and Mill game 2.
Round 2 vs. 4 Color Mid-range 1-1-1
Game 1 mill ftw, with a lot of sweepers and chumping. Game 2 I kept a poor hand and got mana screwed. Game 3 we went to time, it was anyone's game and would have probably gone on for another 15 minutes.
Round 3 vs. UWR control 0-2
He had a lot of counter, I had 2. He had multiple sweepers and main deck Elixir of Immortality, which he hit early both games. He countered my PWs and just started landing his own and I had to waste PWs to kills his PWs. Finally, he dropped a Tamiyo and a Chandra and killed me.
Game 2 he countered my Sorin and it went downhill from there.
Game vs. Esper Control 4 1-1-1
Similar decks, except he ran Memory Adept main, no Architect of Thought, and 2 Sands of Delirium and more counter spells.
Game 1, he got me on mill because he was on the play. He was one step ahead of me the whole time.
Game 2 I got him with Souls and Sorin, especially after I hit the Jace, Architect of Thought ultimate and took his Elixir and my Curse of Death's Hold.
Game 3 went to time with no clear advantage on either side.
It was abundantly clear to me that against any kind of UWR control deck, I had no way to stop Planeswalkers, especially since my opponent played the way you should: counter all my stuff with Counterflux, don't play anything with less than 3 mana open and a counter spell in hand. Each time I went for the O-Ring or D-Sphere, I got countered or he eventually dropped his own O-Ring on mine.
UWR Control was clearly a bad matchup for this build (and so I think Flash and Mid-range would be bad also.) It was ok but not great against 4C Mid-Range, and I never played the 5 aggro players who were there... In fact, the control players all ended up playing each other (the other Esper player and I had the exact same matches...!)
I'm rethinking the build and I hope to get to test this week.
Against UWR, I have really come back to the idea that we beat them with Black. We have to use Duress and Appetite for Brains, which I decided against using at the last minute for Witchbane Orb and Tragic Slips in the side.
I'm putting Curse in the side, but I am keeping it in the 75. When it worked, it was amazing.
I might drop the D-Sphere and O-Ring for counters, but I like them against GB Aggro, as well as against RB Aggro, both of which were played.
I'm going back to 6 sweepers, maybe 7.
I think I will try the Sorcery/Instant-heavy build with 4 Augur of Bolas. Cipher has won me over to testing it seriously. I might even drop a singleton Runechanter's Pike in for giggles in testing.
Some other changes, but I'm not going to talk about those right now until I test them out. Feeling the need to get a little more out of the box, to be über cliched.
Redtwister, I agree I don't have a great g1 against aggro, although 4 verdicts and a bunch of card draw means I usually wipe t4 or 5, so I find I get beat down to about 8 life, 2 or 3 for 1 them with a verdict, and stabilize for the win. My biggest mistake is holding counters and walking into an unexpected cavern and feeling foolish for not making a different line of play. It is rare though, as worst case counterspells will stop some burn or rancors.
I have found though that t2 virtue and t3 souls does a lot to stop aggro, as does t2 AZ charm t4 snapcaster the charm.
I will say however that in general a witchbane orb or curse of deaths hold or even resolved planeswalkers don't worry me. If I'm orbed I win through aggro, if I'm cursed ill win through jace or drownyard. I love my list because I have like 6 different win cons, I've been tripple slaughter gamesed, and fought through it no problem. And the virtues are not vital to win, they just help, so if they eat a sphere or ring I consider that a good deal. Better that than you taking a sorin or jace.
It is probably my Meta, but I haven't seen zombies or gb aggro in like ever, and the RB aggro is more rdw than anything else, and verdict wrecks them.
It seems like most of my Meta is gw aggro and rwu control/tempo, and I havnt really had trouble with either. Especially rwu, I can usually make them sad.
@rayman420
Yeah that makes sense. If that is what you are playing against, your build looks solid. Counter is usually strong against UWR since they generally prefer Moorland Haunt to Cavern of Souls, especially the control and flash versions.
And as always, that matters. What I would play at my locals is not necessarily what I would take to a GP or SCG Open or 5K. For those I would study the most recent tournaments and sculpt the deck for that and hope I guess right.
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Yeah, I just wanted to post the list I've been using. As far as results, I think I've missed top 8 only once in the last month or so. That's not really saying too much given these are just 25 man local tournaments. I haven't had a Standard PTQ to try it out at, though, with WOTC pushing Modern so hard.
I'm officially off the Esper Superfriends bandwagon and I'm only running 4 bombs, just like pre-rotation (2x Karn, 2x Gideon). Once I draw Revelation, all these expensive planeswalkers start looking less and less appealing, so I prefer having a lower curve build that can use the full grip it just drew, instead of going into tap-out mode after drawing off Revelation and playing a planeswalker each turn while ignoring my opponent. Just the other day that happened and my opponent Rakdos Return'd my entire hand.
I think I Drownyard my opponent to death in basically every game. It doesn't matter if it's BR aggro or UWR Flash; even if I go at them with Lingering Souls, they'll just force me back into defense and the Drownyard always gets them. It's pretty hard to actually put down a clock that's faster than Drownyard, since 2 of them is -7 cards/turn, and 3 is -10/turn. A lot of times I draw a full grip with Revelation and just don't play anything till I have 4 mana up to Drownyard.
The only Aggro kills I've had recently have been against other blue decks, courtesy of Lingering Souls. That and Drogskol Reaver of course, but that thing is like a mini Cruel Ultimatum each turn it attacks.
I don't see how any list not running ultimate price beats anything. That and NDrownyard are the only reasons I even use black. I tried Sorin/Souls but after a few weeks I just started to hate it, as it never did enough for the amount of mana invested. That, and I typically win by milling via NDYard and JMAdept anyway. I tend to favor the lower curved, less sweepers, more instant speed than heavy top end sweeper etc. UWR Midrange taught me many painful lessons, and thats one reason I changed since that matcup is so hard. Most games I win are through outdrawing the opponent, and definitley more instant speed cheap solutions over "bombs". Milling may be boring, but it is not susceptible to most removal (except GQuarter and or PNeedle) and Elixir of Immortality which are far less seen and easier to answer than having them play THellkite and smash you etc. I know theyre are other matches, but I like to keep things cheap, and I never found adding more high end spells and 6-8 sweepers to help as much as I originally thought.
I tend to favor the lower curved, less sweepers, more instant speed than heavy top end sweeper etc.
I'd like to see your list, I honestly couldn't imagine winning without 6 sweepers in the main.
Unless you play against alot of control decks in your area.
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I also played 6 games against a 5 color control deck and there was no question that the Sorin/LS deck did better for me, especially with 2 Dissipate main and 2 Negate in the side.
This is more or less what I ran:
1 Detention Sphere
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Curse of Death's Hold
Instant 15
3 Azorius Charm
2 Dissipate
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Think Twice
2 Ultimate Price
Planeswalker 6
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Sorcery 9
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
4 Lingering Souls
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Evolving Wilds
2 Duress
1 Appetite for Brains
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
2 Negate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Tragic Slip
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Terminus
EDIT:
List changed, messed up my counts.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I've been playing a lot of RB lately and this is my experience VS esper builds recently. The sorin/lingering souls versions can actually win games(via damage) which is sometimes relevant. If however they play something like lingering souls in the mid game to wall Aristocrat and I have hellkite mana, it's the equivalent of an upkeep Mistbind Clique with an extra point of power.
Generally, I think the mill decks have the advantage of playing more wraths in the form of terminus since that's the best answer to Aristocrat, and you get more miracles. Lingering souls opens you up to get Hellkite'd. Superfriends are also all inherently weak to hasty fliers.
Curse of deaths hold however is pretty sweet, but I'm not sure if I'd play more then one in the mainboard since it's dead versus control and the sixth wrath is probably better then the second curse.
or
3 Think Twice, 4 Azorius Charm?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I'm running 3 Think Twice and 4 Azorius Charm. Think Twice is a pretty awful card, and I only run it because constantly getting mana-screwed is annoying. If Control wasn't good right now, I would just run Ultimate Price instead, but the mirror is common and it's one of the best cards there.
On a side note, I think it's amazing that virtually nobody is running Augur of Bolas anymore. I still have 4 in my list and the card is great against Aggro. I don't even board it out against slower decks, since a 2 mana draw spell that only hits instants and sorceries is better than most cards in the mirror. If it happens to whiff, I'm 3 cards closer to drawing counterspells and Sphinx's Revelations.
However on Think Twice, you are seriously under rating the card. It single handedly gives you a T2 and T3 play, allowing you to keep mana up for other things, and still have a very good option if your opponent does nothing. It also fixes land drops SO well.
I run 3 Twice, 2 AZ Charm, 2 Revelation, 2 Alchemy, 4 Jace. I find that a good card draw suite. Diversity helps, and the cmc spread is nice.
I think I'd rather play Snapcaster Mage for the 2 spot as far as creatures go. Probably not more than 2 of though. More utility imho.
I feel good against aggro. The way my luck runs, it's land/digging where I run into issues, so there it is, I suppose.
@fans of Augur
I can't bring myself to do it. Sure, it digs for Instant/Sorcery, but it also whiffs a lot, and in our deck when it whiffs that is not just a bunch of lands, it is possibly also PWs and enchantments to the bottom of the deck. I have terrible luck. I could work in Vegas as a cooler. I can't have randomness like that, my decks need consistency.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Yea I agree totally. When you whiff with this deck it SUCKS. I just cannot see myself running these in my build.
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Like I said though, I haven't played the list in a tournament so my experience may not have any value, but after a small sample size I am beginning to see why so many here felt removing Augur, Sorin, and Souls made the deck better. And trust me, I really enjoy Souls and Sorin as cards but they might not do as much in this deck as I first thought.
I think I said this before as well, but the card isn't bad when it whiffs against aggro 25% of the time because the 1/3 blocker is relevant. Relevant to the point of being one of the best cards in the matchup. Saving four damage, even, in the early turns can easily give you the extra turn you need to stabilize. Even if they kill it, that's their second turn wasted, which is a huge tempo boost for you. The fact that you have something like a 20% chance of flipping a Supreme Verdict if you haven't already drawn one just makes it better in that matchup. The lack of early interaction outside of Azorius Charm makes for matches where these decks can just Turn 4 you twice in a row. If you don't draw Charm, all you're doing is casting Think Twice and then untapping starring down lethal. The fact that we have a mini Baleful Strix variant that cantrips can help these things out.
Against Contol, the only thing that matters is drawing your key cards: counterspells and Sphinx's Revelations. But I suppose a lot of people these days put more stock in their planeswalkers than their spells. Personally I only have 3 planeswalkers and a single Drogskol Reaver, none of which I normally play until much later in the game. I don't even side out Augurs in these matchups.
I feel that the 3 new sweepers would be great against creature decks (obviously) and it would still deal with planeswalkers, while at the same time releasing any planeswalkers they might have sphered. As well as all of their enchantments and artifacts.
Here's what I have right now, it's pretty standard compared to other lists:
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Evolving Wilds
SPELLS:
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
3 Ultimate Price
4 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Spheres
3 Azorius Charm
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Terminus
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Feeling of Dread
3 Rest in Peace
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Negate
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle
I want to replace the detention sphere's and one jace, architect of thought with planar cleansing in the main deck. And replace one oblivion ring with planar cleansing in the sideboard.
I'm also intrested in putting the sideboarded memory adept into the main deck, because I find myself siding him in every game, even when i remove the other walkers for fast aggro so I can finish up the game faster. But i don't know what to get rid of.
What do you guys think?
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
How exactly do you deal with opposing Planeswalkers then?
On the off chance anyone cares, and because I happen to have my deck with me, I'll post my current list, with a recently added AZ Charm mb (3x), and some tweaking of the SB for a little more creature hate.
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Nephalia Drownyard
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Plains
INSTANTS
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Azorius Charm
3 Syncopate
2 Dissapate
1 Negate
3 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Lingering Souls
CREATURES
2 Snapcaster Mage
ENCHANTMENTS
2 Intangible Virtue
PLANESWALKERS
3 Sorrin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Terminus
3 Feeling of Dread
2 Ultimate Price
2 Tragic Slip
3 Appetite for Brains
2 Negate
1 Elixer of Immortality
And yes, I know it is a quirky list, but it has worked really well for me, and I know 25 Lands is SUPER greedy, but it has worked out pretty well with the low cmc and the think twice/az charm for early land drops. With that said, bash away.
Seems like it would be weak to really aggressive decks, especially game 1, but I think control decks would just sort of get thrashed. 25 land is really greedy, sir. Admittedly, you don't have anything over 4 mana main except the two Revelations, but if you want to drop PWs with protection (counter or removal), you really need to get to 6-8 mana fairly consistently. I'd find space for O-Ring/D-Sphere for resolved shenanigans. Right now you have no way to deal with a resolved Witchbane Orb or Curse of Death's Hold. My deck from yesterday would eat you up games 2/3, especially since you want to land both Intangible Virtues and I would D-Sphere and hit them both.
@everyone
I modified my list based on yesterday's event. I went 1-1-2.
Round 1 vs. Fog Control 2-0
Not even close. Sorin game 1 and Mill game 2.
Round 2 vs. 4 Color Mid-range 1-1-1
Game 1 mill ftw, with a lot of sweepers and chumping. Game 2 I kept a poor hand and got mana screwed. Game 3 we went to time, it was anyone's game and would have probably gone on for another 15 minutes.
Round 3 vs. UWR control 0-2
He had a lot of counter, I had 2. He had multiple sweepers and main deck Elixir of Immortality, which he hit early both games. He countered my PWs and just started landing his own and I had to waste PWs to kills his PWs. Finally, he dropped a Tamiyo and a Chandra and killed me.
Game 2 he countered my Sorin and it went downhill from there.
Game vs. Esper Control 4 1-1-1
Similar decks, except he ran Memory Adept main, no Architect of Thought, and 2 Sands of Delirium and more counter spells.
Game 1, he got me on mill because he was on the play. He was one step ahead of me the whole time.
Game 2 I got him with Souls and Sorin, especially after I hit the Jace, Architect of Thought ultimate and took his Elixir and my Curse of Death's Hold.
Game 3 went to time with no clear advantage on either side.
It was abundantly clear to me that against any kind of UWR control deck, I had no way to stop Planeswalkers, especially since my opponent played the way you should: counter all my stuff with Counterflux, don't play anything with less than 3 mana open and a counter spell in hand. Each time I went for the O-Ring or D-Sphere, I got countered or he eventually dropped his own O-Ring on mine.
UWR Control was clearly a bad matchup for this build (and so I think Flash and Mid-range would be bad also.) It was ok but not great against 4C Mid-Range, and I never played the 5 aggro players who were there... In fact, the control players all ended up playing each other (the other Esper player and I had the exact same matches...!)
I'm rethinking the build and I hope to get to test this week.
Against UWR, I have really come back to the idea that we beat them with Black. We have to use Duress and Appetite for Brains, which I decided against using at the last minute for Witchbane Orb and Tragic Slips in the side.
I'm putting Curse in the side, but I am keeping it in the 75. When it worked, it was amazing.
I might drop the D-Sphere and O-Ring for counters, but I like them against GB Aggro, as well as against RB Aggro, both of which were played.
I'm going back to 6 sweepers, maybe 7.
I think I will try the Sorcery/Instant-heavy build with 4 Augur of Bolas. Cipher has won me over to testing it seriously. I might even drop a singleton Runechanter's Pike in for giggles in testing.
Some other changes, but I'm not going to talk about those right now until I test them out. Feeling the need to get a little more out of the box, to be über cliched.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
3 Azorius Charm
3 Terminus
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Detention Sphere
3 Lingering Souls
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Island
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Angel of Serenity
2 Think Twice
3 Augur of Bolas
2 Bloodline Keeper
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Diabolic Revelation
A Planeswalker heavy build I've been testing. Its come a long way and this isn't even the final version. Jace is a house in this deck.
I have found though that t2 virtue and t3 souls does a lot to stop aggro, as does t2 AZ charm t4 snapcaster the charm.
I will say however that in general a witchbane orb or curse of deaths hold or even resolved planeswalkers don't worry me. If I'm orbed I win through aggro, if I'm cursed ill win through jace or drownyard. I love my list because I have like 6 different win cons, I've been tripple slaughter gamesed, and fought through it no problem. And the virtues are not vital to win, they just help, so if they eat a sphere or ring I consider that a good deal. Better that than you taking a sorin or jace.
Well, it's ok if you aren't fighting through a ton of haste, burn, and undying, but that is what all the aggro in my local seems to be.
RB Aggro is going to not be concerned with Supreme Verdict and they burn out blocking threats.
GB Aggro has indestructible Predator Ooze, Strangleroot Geist, Rancor, and the creature that's makes you fight their creatures.
UWR Midrange/Flash run as much counter as you do, it is uncounterable, and they have enough burn and other stuff to kill you rather quickly.
Looking at that list, I'm just not convinced, but I would love to see it do well. Good luck!
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
It seems like most of my Meta is gw aggro and rwu control/tempo, and I havnt really had trouble with either. Especially rwu, I can usually make them sad.
Yeah that makes sense. If that is what you are playing against, your build looks solid. Counter is usually strong against UWR since they generally prefer Moorland Haunt to Cavern of Souls, especially the control and flash versions.
And as always, that matters. What I would play at my locals is not necessarily what I would take to a GP or SCG Open or 5K. For those I would study the most recent tournaments and sculpt the deck for that and hope I guess right.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Drogskol Reaver
3 Lingering Souls
4 Augur of Bolas
Spells (22)
4 Dissipate
4 Azorius Charm
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
1 Rest in Peace
3 Think Twice
4 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Dispel
3 Negate
4 Feeling of Dread
4 Terminus
1 Rest in Peace
Yeah, I just wanted to post the list I've been using. As far as results, I think I've missed top 8 only once in the last month or so. That's not really saying too much given these are just 25 man local tournaments. I haven't had a Standard PTQ to try it out at, though, with WOTC pushing Modern so hard.
I'm officially off the Esper Superfriends bandwagon and I'm only running 4 bombs, just like pre-rotation (2x Karn, 2x Gideon). Once I draw Revelation, all these expensive planeswalkers start looking less and less appealing, so I prefer having a lower curve build that can use the full grip it just drew, instead of going into tap-out mode after drawing off Revelation and playing a planeswalker each turn while ignoring my opponent. Just the other day that happened and my opponent Rakdos Return'd my entire hand.
I think I Drownyard my opponent to death in basically every game. It doesn't matter if it's BR aggro or UWR Flash; even if I go at them with Lingering Souls, they'll just force me back into defense and the Drownyard always gets them. It's pretty hard to actually put down a clock that's faster than Drownyard, since 2 of them is -7 cards/turn, and 3 is -10/turn. A lot of times I draw a full grip with Revelation and just don't play anything till I have 4 mana up to Drownyard.
The only Aggro kills I've had recently have been against other blue decks, courtesy of Lingering Souls. That and Drogskol Reaver of course, but that thing is like a mini Cruel Ultimatum each turn it attacks.
3 Augur of Bolas
Spells (25)
4 Azorius Charm
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Think Twice
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Dissipate
2 Ultimate Price
2 Terminus
2 Detention Sphere
1 Forbidden Alchemy
Planeswalkers (5)
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Feeling of Dread
3 Rest in Peace
2 Negate
2 Tribute to Hunger
1 Terminus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Dispel
1 Jace, Memory Adept
Unfortunately, I haven't gotten to test much because of school but any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.
I'd like to see your list, I honestly couldn't imagine winning without 6 sweepers in the main.
Unless you play against alot of control decks in your area.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring