Snapping back Sphinx Rev, Azorius Charm and Syncopate is already good enough, randomly he even kills GoST als flash blocker. The best i've gotten out of him was flash in before blockers to recast Azorius Charm on Thundermaw Hellkite blocking the Geist, then milling with Drownyard to get rid of the Hellkite.
With Snaps i feel less bad for cycling Azorius Charms end of turn.
Jund is a hard match no question. Most of the time you can ignore a lot of their stuff though. A single Lingering Souls chumps Thragtusk for 4 turns. Their main problem cards for me so far have been Rakdos Return, Kessig Wolfrun and Underworld Connections because they let them do unfair stuff (in regards to Junds fairness level). I am not to sure what would actually help against them besides more countermagic aka Dissipate.
Revelation is very good against them with their 1 for 1 spells. Slaughtergames was unimpressive so far, as i board out some numbers of Walkers to minimize Slaughter Games impact.
Sundering Growth is amazingly good as it takes care of Keyrune and Connections, Pithing Needle works as well.
Withbane Orb is pretty good. One thing most people are not aware of is that you cannot burn a Planeswalker with Orb on the board, as you have to target the player to redirect. Dreadbore still works though, Nevermore might be a good card to think about a bit more.
Another card i will be testing a bit more in the following day is Lone Revenant, man i miss Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Those are the challenges I face with Jund as well. Rakdos unanswered and I'm playing catch up. Kessig is a total pain for me. It makes every creature a legitimate threat. I have thought about boarding ghost quarter for that match but so far have been able to deal with it using charm or a Tamiyo if she survives. I just have to keep that Rakdos from happening. Btw, if you've never tried reaver it can swing the game if they don't have an answer.
I think I'm going to play this deck at a grand prix trial tomorrow, because I haven't been enjoying anything else I've tried yet, but I was wondering if someone can answer a couple of questions for me.
1. What MU's do you want Angel of Serenity against?
2. What MU's do you want Geist of Saint Traft Against?
3. Is it best to max out on Terminus before adding Verdicts in the md? Or would it be better to split them and put 2 terminus in the board?
I think I'm going to play this deck at a grand prix trial tomorrow, because I haven't been enjoying anything else I've tried yet, but I was wondering if someone can answer a couple of questions for me.
1. What MU's do you want Angel of Serenity against?
2. What MU's do you want Geist of Saint Traft Against?
3. Is it best to max out on Terminus before adding Verdicts in the md? Or would it be better to split them and put 2 terminus in the board?
I don't run Angel so I can't comment there.
Geist has been good for me in the mirror, against Jund control, and other matches where their creature count is fairly low.
As far as verdict vs terminus, I'd say it's a meta and personal preference call. A mix is not a bad idea, but there's enough stuff around that survives verdict. Terminus solves every creature threat, so I would lean towards more terminus than verdict.
I think it's better to max out on supreme verdict first or 3 sverdicts and 1 terminus. Sverdict is more reliable because its 4 mana no questions asked.
I'd stick to lingering souls, sorin and drownyards for the win. Maybe if your risky, increasing confusion to mill harder after the game is locked up. Milling people out may take longer but it's immune to creature removal and doesn't care about life totals.
Strictly imo, you want to have alternate win options. Those can be fragile in some matches. Slaughter games taking out your Sorins puts you in a potentially bad position. Having those alternate options helps insure you have a way to win. I've had it happen to me. Slaughter games my Sorins and my lingering souls alone weren't enough to both keep me alive and win. Mill takes time and you unfortunately won't always have it. Just my two cents.
I changed my list a little since I last posted it. I put more thought into the meta I've been seeing and was able to get the fourth Jace. I ended up with this:
Played vs Esper Control but a major budget list. Guy played stuff like Duress and Appetite for Brains t1/t2, some o-rings, a Dungeon Geist, nothing really relevant. Ended up Sorin + Souls for the win.
Boarded in some stuff, not much to talk about. I think I boarded in all my dudes as I figured he'd take most of his removal out, he was running stuff like Fiend Hunter main. Don't remember what I took out but I'm pretty sure it was a couple of charms, a couple of Terminus, maybe a Jace, I was pretty checked out on this match given what I had seen from him G1.
G2 went about like the first did but I beat him down by turn 8 with GoST and a Reaver.
Round 2:
Vs G/W mid-range. Guy stalled out on nothing but mana dorks g1, quick and easy after the first Terminus cleared his dorks away. Never saw anything but them.
Boarded nothing...
G2 he hit a Thrag, Armada Wurm, Sigarda, Resto Angel, and a couple of Rancor. Hit Terminus a couple of times, Detention Sphere on the Rancor, Sorin + Souls took the game.
Round 3:
Vs B/R Zombies. G1 he got me down to 6 but a Sorin once he was out of burn went unanswered, plus some Souls, ended the game with me at 15.
G2 wasn't sure if he had Slaughter Games so boarded a bunch of alternate wins and Orb just in case. He basically hit a couple of Bump in the Night and some burn, an Aristocrat and a couple of Cacklers. He stalled out hitting nothing but land for a while after that with me at 6 again, even with an Underworld Connection. Won the game off of Reaver and Seraph. Ended at 16 life.
Round 4:
It was only 22 people and we don't have finals, just Swiss standings. My friend and I were the only 3-0 and we didn't want to play. He plays Soorani's list from States, full 75 card for card. We split the prize pool, walking away with $34 store credit each. After the draw I ended up in first.
Overall, it was a super easy night. I guess I was lucky the few games that my opponents stalled out but the ones they didn't were still fairly easy wins.
I think I'll be cutting an Ultimate Price from the main deck, possibly adding a Reaver main but not sure. Pretty much every time I boarded Reaver he was amazing. I may want another Drownyard or two in my board. If I do end up playing against my friend running Soorani's list, I'd much rather have a win than not.
4 Sorin seems a bit much. I also don't have the Angels, so I was going to run Drogskol Reaver instead... and I'm short a Jace, so if I can't get that I was going to run something like Psychic Spiral or Elixir of Immortality. Spiral seems like a way to push mill to a win when it's needed and worst case gives you the ability to recycle your graveyard. There's also a bit of RDW in my local meta so I'm adding something to help there.
I'm not opposed to the Spiral being something else. I've also considered a verdict/terminus mix. The Dispel may become a Negate tonight.
My meta is pretty all over the place. Some bant, both control and aggro, some janky bw aggro builds, some mono-red, a couple of UW control players, Jund once in a while, fairly random from week to week.
I also tested a miser spiral as well...the idea was to burn through ur deck as fast as possible getting all the answer, and then mill them out, or snap it back to mill em out....i never liked to grab it off an alchemy, and i never wanted to snap it back...
Increasing confusion does a better job and I'm very happy with that as a miser copy. It closes out games just as fast as spiral, and there's nothing wrong with bouncing something with azorius charm, and milling for 1 followed by a late game flashback for 24 or so...
I'm thinking of building this deck and running through matchups in my head, is it possible for this deck to beat like a bant control deck?
Seems like it would be a murderous match up.
Yes. If you mainbored drownyards.. I have literally won every first game vs bant by milling them out. Game 2 and 3 are a little more 50/50 but easily doable. I have force a pair of ghostquatera in the all the bant decks around here. So i went to 3 drownyards!
I also tested a miser spiral as well...the idea was to burn through ur deck as fast as possible getting all the answer, and then mill them out, or snap it back to mill em out....i never liked to grab it off an alchemy, and i never wanted to snap it back...
Increasing confusion does a better job and I'm very happy with that as a miser copy. It closes out games just as fast as spiral, and there's nothing wrong with bouncing something with azorius charm, and milling for 1 followed by a late game flashback for 24 or so...
I have since decided to just avoid those kinds of cards main entirely. There's a lot of things that can help the deck more than these is what I believe at this point. I've changed my list since then, although I did easily win with that list. I decided to give Soorani's list a shot as it is much more like the control decks I used to love.
I'm thinking of building this deck and running through matchups in my head, is it possible for this deck to beat like a bant control deck?
Seems like it would be a murderous match up.
Honestly, I strongly believe that Esper has the edge in any control match. The reason, simple, we have better PWs, Lingering Souls, spot removal, and we don't play the creatures they do. Thragtusk is great and all, but honestly he's not scary against us. Neither is Angel with the right build. I have never felt like I was going to lose the Bant Control match and have only ever lost one game to them due to missing the all important second white mana.
As far as Drownyards goes, this card can win any control match. They can't counter it and it's hard to get rid of. Even if they pack Quarters, they won't pack enough. I don't think they can afford that much colorless or that many board spots for one match. Drownyard is a universal control match winning card, so you can typically easily fit it in the board. I didn't before because I just didn't think it would be that relevant to have a full set. I learned better last night playing with some friends, one of which did pack 4. It's pretty brutal to be on the receiving side of the same thing you were intending to do.
IMO Drownyard is the main reason to run esper over bant. Lingering souls is good but you can't win a damage race against them with all their thragtusks.
The grand prix trial I was going to play in yesterday didn't have enough players show up so it was canceled, but myself and a couple of friends hung around and eventually talked enough players into doing a draft; where I opened Steam Vents, Overgrown Tomb, Angel of Serenity and ended up going 3-0 with GW Populate with Angel of Serenity.
I played 2 games against Jund, going 1-1 (both preboard), and 2 games against GW aggro going 2-0 (1 preboard, 1 postboard). I haven't played the Jund MU enough to say for sure, but myself and the friend I was playing against both got the feeling that the correct line of play might be to mill the Jund player out and just try to sweep/chump/bounce/sphere all of their guys.
The game I won I did end up milling him out, so I'm just curious if anyone else has felt that way about the Jund MU?
I don't necessarily agree. The big thing in that match is patience and not letting them resolve Rakdos's Return. As long as you do that you will eventually out card advantage them. Our spells are typically things we get multiple uses from, PWs, flashback, snapcaster, these and our card draw will give us the eventual advantage. At least I think they do.
I believe there are three reasons to run Esper over the other control variants. Sorin, lingering souls, drownyard.
For what it's worth here my list. Has done fairly well so far (2x 3-1 in MODO Dailies) but wins are often close. Have a hard time with the GW decks running Rancor and am seriously considering Erase in the Sideboard. Reanimator is also tough. Also not sold on Curse of Death's Hold - seems good against only a few decks - and the Reaver - although I dearly love him.
So been playing this for a week or so... so far I have played three FNMish events all at least 20-30+ people. Went 4-1 Twice and 5-0 once so far and enjoying the free jaces I get with credit!!
I was running geist sidebored for a while but sided him nearly every match so eventually I just tossed him mainbored and called the deck Contol/tempo.
Plainswalker wise I started
4 Jace
1 Sorin
2 Tamiyo
But there was most games I would have rather seen sorin then anyone else... So i feel 2/2/2 and an extra sorin sideboard is the right fit. I may find room mainbored for him cause he is a house.
I am really likeing Sundering Growth side with all the needles, detention spheres, o-rings, and other such stuff floating around so much, and if I cast while in combat with a geist I get a free angel!!!
I am temped to stick another snapcaster in there... He is sooo good with the option to hit tempo or control. In control I can revelation again or sweep the table again. And with tempo i can charm something evil and get a 2str beater...
I think I will pick up 3 Resto Angels and side some more creatures so I can go pure aggro or pure control game 2....
I think once you run Geist main board you want to be a tempo deck, running Restoration Angels, 4 Snapcaster, unsummons, pike, and only a few planeswalkers (if at all). Very powerful deck but in my view not control. You can go control after SB with more counters, supreme verdicts, etc.
I'm sorry if the discussion has come up and I just missed it, but has anyone considered Liliana? The obvious drawback is that she's awkward to cast, but if she goes down a turn after sweep, she's good for picking off drops from that point or removing cards they might be clinging to.
Rift is not a good card...If you are really concerned about Rancor, just counter it. Esper control usually packs a lot of counters all ready.
Rift is an amazing card, as a one of though. Overloaded rift when you're facing certain death, o-ringed PWs, etc, game changing.
I personally never ran many counters. I don't think they are that game changing in the current meta overall. Powerful plays are winning currently. Check out Soorani's list, only counters are negates in the board and you may not catch all the rancors with them. Bouncing the dude, vi a charm, is what I normally do. I'd also recommend reading the article he wrote after states. I learned some things from it that changed my perspective and helped me correct some mistakes I was making.
I'm sorry if the discussion has come up and I just missed it, but has anyone considered Liliana? The obvious drawback is that she's awkward to cast, but if she goes down a turn after sweep, she's good for picking off drops from that point or removing cards they might be clinging to.
i love Liliana. Liliana of the Veil is a house. one of my favorite planeswalker cards, great in almost any deck you can squeeze her in. the real drawback of her here is just like you said, she's going to be awkward to cast. the manabase doesnt want to support a double-black spell with everything else that is going on in it. maybe after Gatecrash when we get Godless Shrine's and Watery Graves
Even though last fnm I lost to rwb (stupid misplay) I find the best thing is syncopate for their giest. They have other stuff to worry about, but sometimes waiting to verdict takes too long and you just have to prevent that giest.
Time to do some updates. I tried out grixis control last week and went 3-1-1 and came 5th/6th or something, and then went back to this deck. Changed a few slots and I think I made the deck slightly more focused/streamlined and I am really happy with it. Went 5-0 in the last standard tournament, over 30 people. Not going to do a full tournament report but played vs Junk reanimator, g/w aggro, rakdos aggro (rakdos wins?), UWR midrange (tempo deck with geist and hellkite), and a white weenie deck (surprisingly this and the g/w aggro decks were the hardest matchups).
g/w aggro deck had 4 thalias main.
the white weenie deck had 4 militants and judges familiars main as well as 4 thalias in the board.
Both went 4-1 and only lost to me but also destroyed all the reanimator/bant control lists in the store (there was about 4 of each)
Notable changes:
- Went down to 26 lands
- Sweeper split in favor of Verdict (due to far less zombies)
- Went to 4 souls from 3, they are just too good vs pretty much anything that isn't rancor/craterhoof
- Added snaps and more counterspells (fight the tempo decks)
- took away a sphere (not sure if i want 2-4, they are really useful vs artifacts/walkers and some creatures but so useless vs things like thragtusk plus there is a lot of hate for it which can lead to blowouts)
- Revelation is awesome and having 2 is great, If i dont absolutely need to counter or remove something with snap, i tend to like to snap back revelations
The sideboard is bounds better than it was before. Game 2, siding in 3 dreads and having 7 sweepers is tough on any aggro deck. While, vs control I can side in a 27th land and going up to 3 drownyards + just overload on counters and Jace 3.0. Going up to 4 uncounterable wraths is rly relevant vs the tempo geist decks as well. Lastly, vs reanimator I side in a bunch of counterspells and with 6 of them exiling + 2 snaps, its usually gg. I no longer try to mill out reanimator decks, and instead just play souls and sorins with counterspells (and just play tempo).
Im loving this deck as it can play super strong control as well as go on the offensive very quickly. Can also play a tempo game to most control decks with drownyards, jace 3.0, and souls being such a house vs them.
Thoughts? Comments?
PS: also went 4-0 and won draft out of 24 ppl, izzet splashing black op
Time to do some updates. I tried out grixis control last week and went 3-1-1 and came 5th/6th or something, and then went back to this deck. Changed a few slots and I think I made the deck slightly more focused/streamlined and I am really happy with it. Went 5-0 in the last standard tournament, over 30 people. Not going to do a full tournament report but played vs Junk reanimator, g/w aggro, rakdos aggro (rakdos wins?), UWR midrange (tempo deck with geist and hellkite), and a white weenie deck (surprisingly this and the g/w aggro decks were the hardest matchups).
g/w aggro deck had 4 thalias main.
the white weenie deck had 4 militants and judges familiars main as well as 4 thalias in the board.
Both went 4-1 and only lost to me but also destroyed all the reanimator/bant control lists in the store (there was about 4 of each)
Notable changes:
- Went down to 26 lands
- Sweeper split in favor of Verdict (due to far less zombies)
- Went to 4 souls from 3, they are just too good vs pretty much anything that isn't rancor/craterhoof
- Added snaps and more counterspells (fight the tempo decks)
- took away a sphere (not sure if i want 2-4, they are really useful vs artifacts/walkers and some creatures but so useless vs things like thragtusk plus there is a lot of hate for it which can lead to blowouts)
- Revelation is awesome and having 2 is great, If i dont absolutely need to counter or remove something with snap, i tend to like to snap back revelations
The sideboard is bounds better than it was before. Game 2, siding in 3 dreads and having 7 sweepers is tough on any aggro deck. While, vs control I can side in a 27th land and going up to 3 drownyards + just overload on counters and Jace 3.0. Going up to 4 uncounterable wraths is rly relevant vs the tempo geist decks as well. Lastly, vs reanimator I side in a bunch of counterspells and with 6 of them exiling + 2 snaps, its usually gg. I no longer try to mill out reanimator decks, and instead just play souls and sorins with counterspells (and just play tempo).
Im loving this deck as it can play super strong control as well as go on the offensive very quickly. Can also play a tempo game to most control decks with drownyards, jace 3.0, and souls being such a house vs them.
Thoughts? Comments?
PS: also went 4-0 and won draft out of 24 ppl, izzet splashing black op
you took my advice you dropped a land, added a second drownyard and added a 4th souls
may I ask why the jace in the sideboard? i mean if you need tools against control, you can just bring in 2 more drownyards. why would you play a 5 drop that can be negated post-board? not to mention that it also dies to an opposing jace.
also how are the black sources going? you only have 8 in your deck. should you cut like a plain and an island for 2 swamps? i mean you need to be able to cast a turn 4 sorin or souls. did you have any mana problems?
you took my advice you dropped a land, added a second drownyard and added a 4th souls
may I ask why the jace in the sideboard? i mean if you need tools against control, you can just bring in 2 more drownyards. why would you play a 5 drop that can be negated post-board? not to mention that it also dies to an opposing jace.
also how are the black sources going? you only have 8 in your deck. should you cut like a plain and an island for 2 swamps? i mean you need to be able to cast a turn 4 sorin or souls. did you have any mana problems?
Jace 4.0 isnt that good vs control and jace 3.0 puts them on a quick clock. usually i dont slam it on turn 5, I drownyard a little. they think they have some time, and then when i have 8-10 lands I slam it with counter back up and they now have a 2-3 turn clock to deal with. I have been loving him, and I think he really complements our plan vs control decks with drownyards rather than 4 geists in the board.
8 seems fine, i only need it to drownyard and play sorin and i usually dont need to flash back souls for a lil while. Im happy with the mana base atm, i dont really want to splash more black. I have had almost no mana problems. If i was going to add in swamps/evolving wilds, the deck would start looking quite different with sever and etc.
Did some experimenting. Got first at FNM. The biggest change was using 4 Sphinx's Revelation. I know, I'll ge alot of flack for this, but playing 4 was sooooo good. Chaining them was obscene. They put me ahead so much so that it was devastating to the opponent. I don't play any Scmages any longer. I had 3, then 2, then 1, then no more. I put one copy in the sideboard, mostly to flashback Negate in a control mirror. I play more Supreme Verdicts that Terminus. More often I need to hit a sweeper on turn four, and Supreme Verdict is very reliable. That being said, Miracling a Terminus and then casting a Lingering Souls or Planeswalker in the same turn is super powerful.
I'm thinking of adding 2 copies of Liliana of the Veil to the maindeck. The mana cost is what makes me hestitant. I really need to cast her on turn 3 for alot of value, but double black by turn 3 might be a problem. For now though, having her in the sideboard for the mirror is amazing. This evenings FNM it helped alot when my control mirror opponent would be on the play for the classic turn 3 GoST, and twice I was able to land Liliana because of it, in which she totally dominated the mirror.
Ultimate price was awesome all night. I played 2 maindeck with a third in the sideboard.
4 SRevelations may sound excessive, but it really isn't. The card is so ridiculous. I was never unhappy to see one, ever, even in an opener. This deck can definitley get to the stage of the game where you can cast it, and resolving 2 a game is unbelievable. I always want to see this card. The life gain and card draw is so relevant in every match. Resolving it is just so much victory.
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Those are the challenges I face with Jund as well. Rakdos unanswered and I'm playing catch up. Kessig is a total pain for me. It makes every creature a legitimate threat. I have thought about boarding ghost quarter for that match but so far have been able to deal with it using charm or a Tamiyo if she survives. I just have to keep that Rakdos from happening. Btw, if you've never tried reaver it can swing the game if they don't have an answer.
RIP poor Sphinx of Jwar Isle
1. What MU's do you want Angel of Serenity against?
2. What MU's do you want Geist of Saint Traft Against?
3. Is it best to max out on Terminus before adding Verdicts in the md? Or would it be better to split them and put 2 terminus in the board?
I don't run Angel so I can't comment there.
Geist has been good for me in the mirror, against Jund control, and other matches where their creature count is fairly low.
As far as verdict vs terminus, I'd say it's a meta and personal preference call. A mix is not a bad idea, but there's enough stuff around that survives verdict. Terminus solves every creature threat, so I would lean towards more terminus than verdict.
I'd stick to lingering souls, sorin and drownyards for the win. Maybe if your risky, increasing confusion to mill harder after the game is locked up. Milling people out may take longer but it's immune to creature removal and doesn't care about life totals.
I changed my list a little since I last posted it. I put more thought into the meta I've been seeing and was able to get the fourth Jace. I ended up with this:
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Island
4 Plains
Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
4 Azorius Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Ultimate Price
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Terminus
4 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Dissipate
1 Negate
2 Drogskol Reaver
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Seraph of Dawn
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Sundering Growth
1 Witchbane Orb
Round 1:
Played vs Esper Control but a major budget list. Guy played stuff like Duress and Appetite for Brains t1/t2, some o-rings, a Dungeon Geist, nothing really relevant. Ended up Sorin + Souls for the win.
Boarded in some stuff, not much to talk about. I think I boarded in all my dudes as I figured he'd take most of his removal out, he was running stuff like Fiend Hunter main. Don't remember what I took out but I'm pretty sure it was a couple of charms, a couple of Terminus, maybe a Jace, I was pretty checked out on this match given what I had seen from him G1.
G2 went about like the first did but I beat him down by turn 8 with GoST and a Reaver.
Round 2:
Vs G/W mid-range. Guy stalled out on nothing but mana dorks g1, quick and easy after the first Terminus cleared his dorks away. Never saw anything but them.
Boarded nothing...
G2 he hit a Thrag, Armada Wurm, Sigarda, Resto Angel, and a couple of Rancor. Hit Terminus a couple of times, Detention Sphere on the Rancor, Sorin + Souls took the game.
Round 3:
Vs B/R Zombies. G1 he got me down to 6 but a Sorin once he was out of burn went unanswered, plus some Souls, ended the game with me at 15.
Boarded 3 Seraph, 2 Reaver, 1 Witchbane, pulled 2 Sphere, 1 Jace, 2 Charm, 1 Ultimate Price, 1 Lingering Souls
G2 wasn't sure if he had Slaughter Games so boarded a bunch of alternate wins and Orb just in case. He basically hit a couple of Bump in the Night and some burn, an Aristocrat and a couple of Cacklers. He stalled out hitting nothing but land for a while after that with me at 6 again, even with an Underworld Connection. Won the game off of Reaver and Seraph. Ended at 16 life.
Round 4:
It was only 22 people and we don't have finals, just Swiss standings. My friend and I were the only 3-0 and we didn't want to play. He plays Soorani's list from States, full 75 card for card. We split the prize pool, walking away with $34 store credit each. After the draw I ended up in first.
Overall, it was a super easy night. I guess I was lucky the few games that my opponents stalled out but the ones they didn't were still fairly easy wins.
I think I'll be cutting an Ultimate Price from the main deck, possibly adding a Reaver main but not sure. Pretty much every time I boarded Reaver he was amazing. I may want another Drownyard or two in my board. If I do end up playing against my friend running Soorani's list, I'd much rather have a win than not.
Sorry if this was a boring read.
Seems like it would be a murderous match up.
I also tested a miser spiral as well...the idea was to burn through ur deck as fast as possible getting all the answer, and then mill them out, or snap it back to mill em out....i never liked to grab it off an alchemy, and i never wanted to snap it back...
Increasing confusion does a better job and I'm very happy with that as a miser copy. It closes out games just as fast as spiral, and there's nothing wrong with bouncing something with azorius charm, and milling for 1 followed by a late game flashback for 24 or so...
Yes. If you mainbored drownyards.. I have literally won every first game vs bant by milling them out. Game 2 and 3 are a little more 50/50 but easily doable. I have force a pair of ghostquatera in the all the bant decks around here. So i went to 3 drownyards!
EDH
BU LazavUB
GU Momir VigUG
I have since decided to just avoid those kinds of cards main entirely. There's a lot of things that can help the deck more than these is what I believe at this point. I've changed my list since then, although I did easily win with that list. I decided to give Soorani's list a shot as it is much more like the control decks I used to love.
I agree, the list I'll be running has them now
Honestly, I strongly believe that Esper has the edge in any control match. The reason, simple, we have better PWs, Lingering Souls, spot removal, and we don't play the creatures they do. Thragtusk is great and all, but honestly he's not scary against us. Neither is Angel with the right build. I have never felt like I was going to lose the Bant Control match and have only ever lost one game to them due to missing the all important second white mana.
As far as Drownyards goes, this card can win any control match. They can't counter it and it's hard to get rid of. Even if they pack Quarters, they won't pack enough. I don't think they can afford that much colorless or that many board spots for one match. Drownyard is a universal control match winning card, so you can typically easily fit it in the board. I didn't before because I just didn't think it would be that relevant to have a full set. I learned better last night playing with some friends, one of which did pack 4. It's pretty brutal to be on the receiving side of the same thing you were intending to do.
The grand prix trial I was going to play in yesterday didn't have enough players show up so it was canceled, but myself and a couple of friends hung around and eventually talked enough players into doing a draft; where I opened Steam Vents, Overgrown Tomb, Angel of Serenity and ended up going 3-0 with GW Populate with Angel of Serenity.
I was going to play this list:
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Other Spells
4 Azorius Charm
4 Detention Sphere
4 Lingering Souls
2 Sever the Bloodline
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
3 Ultimate Price
2 Angel of Serenity
3 Dissipate
1 Negate
2 Seraph of Dawn
1 Terminus
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Ultimate Price
1 Sever the Bloodline
I played 2 games against Jund, going 1-1 (both preboard), and 2 games against GW aggro going 2-0 (1 preboard, 1 postboard). I haven't played the Jund MU enough to say for sure, but myself and the friend I was playing against both got the feeling that the correct line of play might be to mill the Jund player out and just try to sweep/chump/bounce/sphere all of their guys.
The game I won I did end up milling him out, so I'm just curious if anyone else has felt that way about the Jund MU?
I believe there are three reasons to run Esper over the other control variants. Sorin, lingering souls, drownyard.
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Azorius Charm
3 Detention Sphere
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
1 Ultimate Price
2 Syncopate
2 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Dissipate
2 Negate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Sundering growth
2 Purify the Grave
1 Drogskol Reaver
1 Ultimate Price
2 Sever the Bloodline
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Augur of Bolas
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Azorius Charm
2 Detention Sphere
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Ultimate Price
2 Dissipate
1 Negate
2 Feeling of Dread
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Negate
2 Purify the Grave
1 Ultimate Price
2 Sundering Growth
2 Sever the Bloodline
1 Rootborn Defenses
2 Terminus
1 Sorin, Lord of Inistrad
1 Nephalia Drownyard
So been playing this for a week or so... so far I have played three FNMish events all at least 20-30+ people. Went 4-1 Twice and 5-0 once so far and enjoying the free jaces I get with credit!!
I was running geist sidebored for a while but sided him nearly every match so eventually I just tossed him mainbored and called the deck Contol/tempo.
Plainswalker wise I started
4 Jace
1 Sorin
2 Tamiyo
But there was most games I would have rather seen sorin then anyone else... So i feel 2/2/2 and an extra sorin sideboard is the right fit. I may find room mainbored for him cause he is a house.
I am really likeing Sundering Growth side with all the needles, detention spheres, o-rings, and other such stuff floating around so much, and if I cast while in combat with a geist I get a free angel!!!
I am temped to stick another snapcaster in there... He is sooo good with the option to hit tempo or control. In control I can revelation again or sweep the table again. And with tempo i can charm something evil and get a 2str beater...
I think I will pick up 3 Resto Angels and side some more creatures so I can go pure aggro or pure control game 2....
EDH
BU LazavUB
GU Momir VigUG
Rift is not a good card...If you are really concerned about Rancor, just counter it. Esper control usually packs a lot of counters all ready.
Rift is an amazing card, as a one of though. Overloaded rift when you're facing certain death, o-ringed PWs, etc, game changing.
I personally never ran many counters. I don't think they are that game changing in the current meta overall. Powerful plays are winning currently. Check out Soorani's list, only counters are negates in the board and you may not catch all the rancors with them. Bouncing the dude, vi a charm, is what I normally do. I'd also recommend reading the article he wrote after states. I learned some things from it that changed my perspective and helped me correct some mistakes I was making.
i love Liliana. Liliana of the Veil is a house. one of my favorite planeswalker cards, great in almost any deck you can squeeze her in. the real drawback of her here is just like you said, she's going to be awkward to cast. the manabase doesnt want to support a double-black spell with everything else that is going on in it. maybe after Gatecrash when we get Godless Shrine's and Watery Graves
g/w aggro deck had 4 thalias main.
the white weenie deck had 4 militants and judges familiars main as well as 4 thalias in the board.
Both went 4-1 and only lost to me but also destroyed all the reanimator/bant control lists in the store (there was about 4 of each)
Anyways, here is my current list:
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Plains
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
2 Naphalia Drownyard
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Sorceries
2 Terminus
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Lingering Souls
2 Detention Sphere
Instants
1 Dissipate
4 Azorius Charm
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Syncopate
1 Ultimate Price
2 Snapcaster Mage
Notable changes:
- Went down to 26 lands
- Sweeper split in favor of Verdict (due to far less zombies)
- Went to 4 souls from 3, they are just too good vs pretty much anything that isn't rancor/craterhoof
- Added snaps and more counterspells (fight the tempo decks)
- took away a sphere (not sure if i want 2-4, they are really useful vs artifacts/walkers and some creatures but so useless vs things like thragtusk plus there is a lot of hate for it which can lead to blowouts)
- Revelation is awesome and having 2 is great, If i dont absolutely need to counter or remove something with snap, i tend to like to snap back revelations
Quick look at the sideboard:
1 Essence Scatter
1 Negate
3 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Dissipate
2 Sundering Growth
3 Feeling of Dread
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Nephalia Drownyard
The sideboard is bounds better than it was before. Game 2, siding in 3 dreads and having 7 sweepers is tough on any aggro deck. While, vs control I can side in a 27th land and going up to 3 drownyards + just overload on counters and Jace 3.0. Going up to 4 uncounterable wraths is rly relevant vs the tempo geist decks as well. Lastly, vs reanimator I side in a bunch of counterspells and with 6 of them exiling + 2 snaps, its usually gg. I no longer try to mill out reanimator decks, and instead just play souls and sorins with counterspells (and just play tempo).
Im loving this deck as it can play super strong control as well as go on the offensive very quickly. Can also play a tempo game to most control decks with drownyards, jace 3.0, and souls being such a house vs them.
Thoughts? Comments?
PS: also went 4-0 and won draft out of 24 ppl, izzet splashing black op
you took my advice you dropped a land, added a second drownyard and added a 4th souls
may I ask why the jace in the sideboard? i mean if you need tools against control, you can just bring in 2 more drownyards. why would you play a 5 drop that can be negated post-board? not to mention that it also dies to an opposing jace.
also how are the black sources going? you only have 8 in your deck. should you cut like a plain and an island for 2 swamps? i mean you need to be able to cast a turn 4 sorin or souls. did you have any mana problems?
Jace 4.0 isnt that good vs control and jace 3.0 puts them on a quick clock. usually i dont slam it on turn 5, I drownyard a little. they think they have some time, and then when i have 8-10 lands I slam it with counter back up and they now have a 2-3 turn clock to deal with. I have been loving him, and I think he really complements our plan vs control decks with drownyards rather than 4 geists in the board.
8 seems fine, i only need it to drownyard and play sorin and i usually dont need to flash back souls for a lil while. Im happy with the mana base atm, i dont really want to splash more black. I have had almost no mana problems. If i was going to add in swamps/evolving wilds, the deck would start looking quite different with sever and etc.
I'm thinking of adding 2 copies of Liliana of the Veil to the maindeck. The mana cost is what makes me hestitant. I really need to cast her on turn 3 for alot of value, but double black by turn 3 might be a problem. For now though, having her in the sideboard for the mirror is amazing. This evenings FNM it helped alot when my control mirror opponent would be on the play for the classic turn 3 GoST, and twice I was able to land Liliana because of it, in which she totally dominated the mirror.
Ultimate price was awesome all night. I played 2 maindeck with a third in the sideboard.
4 SRevelations may sound excessive, but it really isn't. The card is so ridiculous. I was never unhappy to see one, ever, even in an opener. This deck can definitley get to the stage of the game where you can cast it, and resolving 2 a game is unbelievable. I always want to see this card. The life gain and card draw is so relevant in every match. Resolving it is just so much victory.