Dama, I hope you take this with a grain of salt as well, but I think it is playstyle dependant, and perhaps you let your prefered playstyle color your opinions, because since the card has been printed, any number of control, midrange, and aggro decks have run Lingering Souls because the card is just that good (albeit less good with Rancor and Hellkite).
I've seen you gripe about aggro repeatedly, yet Souls has been the greatest boon to me against aggro outside of Verdict. You have opted for 7 sweepers and 6 targeted removal, which obviously works for you, whereas I run 4 Verdicts main and thats about it, and I like it just fine. No D Sphere, no Ultimate Price, just 4x verdicts to sweep T4.
You seem to run your deck more like UW, where imho an Esper list makes more use out of the cards it has available, namely Souls and Sorin. I'm not saying that is in any way incorrect, but it seems like a playstyle difference, not "Sorin and Souls are bad".
I know you had issues with mana in the past, and maybe you just want to avoid black as much as possible, but I find it a shame to discourage people from playing a certain way, or with certain very strong cards, just because it isn't your prefered playstyle.
To be fair there is A LOT of hate running around against Lingering Souls making it not as good. Rancor goes over the top, and lots of decks run cards that completely hose it (D. Sphere, Sever, Izzet Staticaster, Wraths, Bonfire, Kessig Wolf Run, etc.).
It is the primary reason I chose to add in another PW and some more targeted removal. A shame too, because the card is really good, but poorly positioned in this meta. :/
To be fair there is A LOT of hate running around against Lingering Souls making it not as good. Rancor goes over the top, and lots of decks run cards that completely hose it (D. Sphere, Sever, Izzet Staticaster, Wraths, Bonfire, Kessig Wolf Run, etc.).
It is the primary reason I chose to add in another PW and some more targeted removal. A shame too, because the card is really good, but poorly positioned in this meta. :/
To be fair, a lot of the hate is marginal. Tokens getting D sphere'd isn't bad cause that means there not getting used on walkers and control mirrors are won on the back of drownyard.
Wraths, same thing really. Actively bad in the control matchup.
Wolf Run is a problem card in general and isn't making souls worse. It's just being annoying in general.
Staticaster is a board card and souls are generally bad against staticaster decks anyways.
Bonfire, sever, and Thundermaw are the only cards that make lingering souls look bad IMO.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
To be fair there is A LOT of hate running around against Lingering Souls making it not as good. Rancor goes over the top, and lots of decks run cards that completely hose it (D. Sphere, Sever, Izzet Staticaster, Wraths, Bonfire, Kessig Wolf Run, etc.).
It is the primary reason I chose to add in another PW and some more targeted removal. A shame too, because the card is really good, but poorly positioned in this meta. :/
^This...like, super this. :/ I loved Lingering Souls + Sorin when the format started, but lately I've been very disappointed. They get trolled over by stuff like Rancor...and anything with Trample or First Strike. They're good for stalling but recently, I haven't been satisfied with how they have been stalling; just doesn't seem to have the same impact as they did a while back. Hell, I've lost to R/G Werewolves plenty of times on Cockatrice, because Souls doesn't do much of anything vs. Full Moon's Rise and Immerwolves.
I was considering taking them (Souls) out myself.
Aggro still seems to be a huge problem for me, even though I'm running 26 lands, 3 Terminus, and 3 Supreme Verdict -- with one in the side. Also running Sever 1/1 Main/side split. I'm playing Liliana because I she's just an all-time favorite card of mine this season...that, and I miss Solar Flare; used to run her 2-of there. Also why I'm playing Alchemy x3. Idk, I prefer it over Jace and Augur of Bolas personally, but I'm open to suggestions.
Also, how necessary is it to run 4x Sphinx's Revelation? I like the card, I really do, but since I'm running Alchemy, I haven't felt the need to run more than one, and I've never been crazy about running anymore than 2 or so.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
To me this deck looks very consistent but also dreadfully boring to play (as compared to a Sorin / Souls build at least).
Also, let me mention that the synergy between Drogskol Reaver and Sorin is amazing (given that if you have both on the battlefield you have already won the game anyways).
Dama, I hope you take this with a grain of salt as well, but I think it is playstyle dependant, and perhaps you let your prefered playstyle color your opinions, because since the card has been printed, any number of control, midrange, and aggro decks have run Lingering Souls because the card is just that good (albeit less good with Rancor and Hellkite).
I've seen you gripe about aggro repeatedly, yet Souls has been the greatest boon to me against aggro outside of Verdict. You have opted for 7 sweepers and 6 targeted removal, which obviously works for you, whereas I run 4 Verdicts main and thats about it, and I like it just fine. No D Sphere, no Ultimate Price, just 4x verdicts to sweep T4.
You seem to run your deck more like UW, where imho an Esper list makes more use out of the cards it has available, namely Souls and Sorin. I'm not saying that is in any way incorrect, but it seems like a playstyle difference, not "Sorin and Souls are bad".
I know you had issues with mana in the past, and maybe you just want to avoid black as much as possible, but I find it a shame to discourage people from playing a certain way, or with certain very strong cards, just because it isn't your prefered playstyle.
Sure it could very well be my playstyle that has me saying this is a better build .... I dunno, but one thing I do know is after playing this build I know it handles aggro much better than my build before. Lingering Souls is a fine card, don't get me wrong, but vs Thundermaw.dec it is a horrible useless card. I pulled Lingering Souls because of how popular Thundermaw Hellkite is. Thundermaw Hellkite wrecks Lingering Souls. I went to Florida for a SCG-IQ and Thundermaw Hellkite was out of control, I go to the coast of Georgia and Thundermaw Hellkite is out of Control. For me it was a smart move then and it is still a smart move pulling Lingering Souls out of the deck completely. Even though I only ran into a American Midrange deck in the Semis, it was a good thing I pulled them because they would just been dead cards in this matchup. American Midrange is not the only deck that runs them either. RDW, B/R Aggro, Naya .... all 4 of these decks are top ranked decks in the current Standard format atm.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad was a tough choice on pulling but I listened to Nick's advise and pulled them and have never looked back. I was so afraid that pulling them would weaken my deck, the life loss from the dudes was another worry. having Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in my deck as a 3 of or even as a 2 of gave me that "comfortable, safe" feeling and I will not lie, when this tournament started I felt like the deck was weaker, and then the round 1 loss just wanted me to hammer that point home even more but as the night went on and I got the feeling for my new build it started feeling right and as each round went by I moved up in the ranks playing better people and better decks and it just ran smooth.
As I said while ago, Leaving those two guys in the build for others is NOT the wrong thing to do "but" I will try to hammer my point home to others on why I think my build is better and I want the same from everyone else. I would not expect less. I plan to play this deck more and get more test time with it in events to find ways to make it even better but one thing for sure that I found out is I do "not" need Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and Lingering Souls in my build for it to be a better deck. At first I really thought that I would regret pulling them but as I said it worked out really well for me in the end and I am glad I made this move.
PS: If I seamed to try to discourage others from keeping those two cards in there decks then that is my bad guys because I would never "mean" to do that. I tend to come off as being aggresive hehe .... that's just the way I am so don't take offense to that bud. I even said above that if it works for others then by all means they should play them. These forums are for everyone to push what they think is best on others and it is up to them to show that what THEY think is better.
You are saying Lingering Souls is good for helping against Aggro but until the Top 8 all I played against was Aggro and I never EVER had a problem with any of those decks and I don't Run Lingering Souls or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad for stalling and I did just fine. There was one time where it was vs the second G/W Aggro deck in G2 where he had me at 9 life an was swinging for 10 for the win, and I cast Think Twice with 4 mana open hoping for a Terminus and ended up pulling a Azorius Charm and bounced his dude and next turn I swept the board and followed next turn by Sphinx's Revelation so Lingering Souls coulda stalled better for me but it's just not that helpful overall for me.
wow I can't see how people do NOT run 4 of these, I know I was ticked because my build only ran 3 copies the other night and I cracked my 4th off my win packs and it went STRAIGHT IN MY DECK! The life gain and card draw is just back breaking .... sure for 3 mana with Forbidden Alchemy you push through 4 cards but you only keep 1. It's just awesome for me, I love the card.
To me this deck looks very consistent but also dreadfully boring to play (as compared to a Sorin / Souls build at least).
Also, let me mention that the synergy between Drogskol Reaver and Sorin is amazing (given that if you have both on the battlefield you have already won the game anyways).
Yea for some it may be boring, but I am a hard control player at heart and LOVE these long dull games hehe, I durdle my way through my matches and half the people I play against when I beat them they just walk away furious lol .... STUPID BORING ASS MIRACLING TOP DECKING TAMIYO ULTIMATING POS etc etc etc. Sure Drogskol Reaver and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad seems good, but I don't play either *wink* hehe. My deck does not win "most of the time" by beating my opponent, it usually wins by them being locked down so bad they just scoop to move to the next game, my build just has a way of making someone so mad they just scoop out of frustration.
As for the Sorin, Lord of Innistrad debate, I might try pulling a land, going back to 27 and adding 1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad to the main deck and see if it helps. I dunno, does not seem good for me, but 27 lands seems right but I have no clue what I would bring in for that one land.
ok my fingers hurt now
But I wanted to reply to everyone best I could.
Dama, in your deck I would say souls is un needed because of the sheer volume of removal you run. I run much less, and find souls and sorin invaluable at holding down the board. But I'm weird, I don't want to run 13 targeted removal or wipes because I'm in sort of a controlish Meta, and they don't run as many creatures. Even rwu usually only has hellkites and angels.
My last comment about sorin, because I don't want to beat a dead horse, but how can you not want to run a bunch of planeswalkers in a deck with that much removal? Or do you find jace and tam enough?
Dama, in your deck I would say souls is un needed because of the sheer volume of removal you run. I run much less, and find souls and sorin invaluable at holding down the board. But I'm weird, I don't want to run 13 targeted removal or wipes because I'm in sort of a controlish Meta, and they don't run as many creatures. Even rwu usually only has hellkites and angels.
I think that is the thing he was saying. Sometimes the meta calls more for a proactive approach(like a controllish meta like yours). So maybe souls+sorin is better in that regard.
Play what you like and need.
To clarify, the only Esper build that I am running myself is the one without souls+sorin because I want to build the a streamlined deck with one unifying win condition. I don't want to have a subset secondary win condition.
My last comment about sorin, because I don't want to beat a dead horse, but how can you not want to run a bunch of planeswalkers in a deck with that much removal? Or do you find jace and tam enough?
They are actually enough. If he had to add another planeswalker in his build, it is better to add Jace, Memory Adept rather than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. This is because Jace synergizes with his wincons better than Sorin(I think his build wins by milling most of the time)
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
- H. L. Mencken
Dama, in your deck I would say souls is un needed because of the sheer volume of removal you run. I run much less, and find souls and sorin invaluable at holding down the board. But I'm weird, I don't want to run 13 targeted removal or wipes because I'm in sort of a controlish Meta, and they don't run as many creatures. Even rwu usually only has hellkites and angels.
My last comment about sorin, because I don't want to beat a dead horse, but how can you not want to run a bunch of planeswalkers in a deck with that much removal? Or do you find jace and tam enough?
I used the think the same thing concerning the amount of Sweepers I run and how Sorin, lord of Innistrad and Lingering Souls was better vs a Control type deck as well as Aggro, but actually I think about it and the Nephalia Drownyards are all I need for the Control matchups, most Control decks simply cannot handle the Milling and sure vs them I will always hold a ton of removal that is semi dead but again, it's the Mill that wrecks Control and it is usually all I need for those matchups. G2-3 I bring in the 3 Jace, Memory Adept and "maybe" Rest in Peace depending on the type of Control mirror I am playing against at that time. So in closing on this, having all excessive sweepers and removal is perfect for the only deck I would worry about and that is Aggro. it just to work out perfectly because as I said all I need vs Control matches is Nephalia Drownyard and Lands. You said usually American Control only has Thundermaw Hellkites and Restoration Angels, one thing you do not need to under estimate is how fast life totals drop with a Snapcaster Mage swing for two or a couple of Auger of Bolas pecking away at you.
Jace, Architect of Thought is easily an all star in the deck vs Aggro (the faster aggro builds mostly) and if not used in that manner, he is an awesome card drawer. Tamiyo the Moon Sage is incredible! I usually just hold her to I am in complete control of the game and then slam her to the table and start ticking her up. I gotta make sure I have enough protection to keep her alive to get that ultimate, because that ultimate simply wins you the game on the spot. My last event I ultimated her 4 times that night and all but one time the other player just scooped on the spot or scoop the turn I "would" have did it. It wins games. So to answer your question .... yes, these are all I need.
They are actually enough. If he had to add another planeswalker in his build, it is better to add Jace, Memory Adept rather than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. This is because Jace synergizes with his wincons better than Sorin(I think his build wins by milling most of the time)
Actually I pulled Jace, Memory Adept back to the sideboard to add the 4th Sphinx's Revelation but when it was in the deck main vs Aggro it was just dead, I never played it, besdies the for lands to Mill with are plenty vs Control decks game 1.
oh and actually MOST of my wins do not come from Milling, they come from people scooping out of frustration (truth).
I will say, I copied Batutinha's list and it's super satisfying to allows hit your land drops. Considering I've played control decks that where 26 lands, 3 pristine talismans, 28 is definitely fine. After all, the other decks didn't even have sphinx's revelation.
I'd also say the deck is fun to play. Depends on how much you like calculating the odds of hitting your next land drop. Seriously though, as good as it is, it's fairly straightforward to play. Play land. Daydream. EOT think twice. Wrath. Rinse repeat till 7+ lands are in play. Draw a new hand. I would say I really like 1 Memory adept in the main to let you go turbo on the milling or simply as a phyrexian arena.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I will say, I copied Batutinha's list and it's super satisfying to allows hit your land drops. Considering I've played control decks that where 26 lands, 3 pristine talismans, 28 is definitely fine. After all, the other decks didn't even have sphinx's revelation.
I'd also say the deck is fun to play. Depends on how much you like calculating the odds of hitting your next land drop. Seriously though, as good as it is, it's fairly straightforward to play. Play land. Daydream. EOT think twice. Wrath. Rinse repeat till 7+ lands are in play. Draw a new hand. I would say I really like 1 Memory adept in the main to let you go turbo on the milling or simply as a phyrexian arena.
I may end up putting it back into the main but I need to test more first and as for the day dreaming ...... it's my style of deck to play lol, I love to think in my games, meaning these style decks it takes tons of thinking because you just cannot sit there and do nothing, you have to do the math every turn to make sure its right to sweep or stall or Mill etc etc etc, I just love slow control decks.
I used the think the same thing concerning the amount of Sweepers I run and how Sorin, lord of Innistrad and Lingering Souls was better vs a Control type deck as well as Aggro, but actually I think about it and the Nephalia Drownyards are all I need for the Control matchups, most Control decks simply cannot handle the Milling and sure vs them I will always hold a ton of removal that is semi dead but again, it's the Mill that wrecks Control and it is usually all I need for those matchups. G2-3 I bring in the 3 Jace, Memory Adept and "maybe" Rest in Peace depending on the type of Control mirror I am playing against at that time. So in closing on this, having all excessive sweepers and removal is perfect for the only deck I would worry about and that is Aggro. it just to work out perfectly because as I said all I need vs Control matches is Nephalia Drownyard and Lands. You said usually American Control only has Thundermaw Hellkites and Restoration Angels, one thing you do not need to under estimate is how fast life totals drop with a Snapcaster Mage swing for two or a couple of Auger of Bolas pecking away at you.
Control mirrors are generally as simple as hitting your land drops and playing more drownyards then the other guy, similar to UB control from last season. Sometimes you'll die to creatures, but those are usually games where you are way behind anyways.
Jace, Architect of Thought is easily an all star in the deck vs Aggro (the faster aggro builds mostly) and if not used in that manner, he is an awesome card drawer. Tamiyo the Moon Sage is incredible! I usually just hold her to I am in complete control of the game and then slam her to the table and start ticking her up. I gotta make sure I have enough protection to keep her alive to get that ultimate, because that ultimate simply wins you the game on the spot. My last event I ultimated her 4 times that night and all but one time the other player just scooped on the spot or scoop the turn I "would" have did it. It wins games. So to answer your question .... yes, these are all I need.
I never have much use for Tamiyo. By that, I mean she rarely ever seems good. She's often just something to do with my mana. Sometimes though she is stellar when it comes time to lock down a man land or an obstinate thragtusk.
Actually I pulled Jace, Memory Adept back to the sideboard to add the 4th Sphinx's Revelation but when it was in the deck main vs Aggro it was just dead, I never played it, besdies the for lands to Mill with are plenty vs Control decks game 1.
oh and actually MOST of my wins do not come from Milling, they come from people scooping out of frustration (truth).
Jace is usually fine versus non Black or Red based aggro. I usually side jaces in against GW decks and sometimes against naya.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I never have much use for Tamiyo. By that, I mean she rarely ever seems good. She's often just something to do with my mana. Sometimes though she is stellar when it comes time to lock down a man land or an obstinate thragtusk.
Jace is usually fine versus non Black or Red based aggro. I usually side jaces in against GW decks and sometimes against naya.
In my experience so far with this build is Tamiyo the Moon Sage is one the BEST cards in my deck, it is the only card in my deck that makes someone scoop on the spot when I Ultimate her.
As for bring the other 2 in vs those Aggro decks .... hmmm, I may try it and see how things go, it makes sense but I am not sure there needed in these matchups.
I want to say something that best describes my play style. Michael Loconto said something when he was in the finals of pro tour New York aka Showdown in New York ..... he said ............. "I like to take control of a game and then make it mine" and something else he said which fits me perfectly was "Slow and steady wins the race" and ever since he said that 16 years ago, "that" is how I play my games. I am a horrid Aggro player, I am control at heart. People that know me call my Esper build "gototime.dec" lol
To me this deck looks very consistent but also dreadfully boring to play (as compared to a Sorin / Souls build at least).
Also, let me mention that the synergy between Drogskol Reaver and Sorin is amazing (given that if you have both on the battlefield you have already won the game anyways).
Idk, from my testing, Sorin/Souls really doesn't make the deck that much more exciting. It takes just as long to grind out -- maybe not as long; you end up using a lot of the souls to block against aggro, then when you finally get an emblem or two out, THEN you start swinging away.
As for other non-aggro matches, it's always a long grind anyhow.
Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the point between stalling/stabilizing and actually swinging for game feels just about the same, at least from my experience.
You are saying Lingering Souls is good for helping against Aggro but until the Top 8 all I played against was Aggro and I never EVER had a problem with any of those decks and I don't Run Lingering Souls or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad for stalling and I did just fine. There was one time where it was vs the second G/W Aggro deck in G2 where he had me at 9 life an was swinging for 10 for the win, and I cast Think Twice with 4 mana open hoping for a Terminus and ended up pulling a Azorius Charm and bounced his dude and next turn I swept the board and followed next turn by Sphinx's Revelation so Lingering Souls coulda stalled better for me but it's just not that helpful overall for me.
Yes, that's what I'm saying, but I'm actually in agreement with you, in that Souls just has been less and less appealing.
What concerns me is that no matter what I try, I can't seem to stabilize against aggro, at least, it's very shaky, with my current build. I mean, it CAN stabilize, and it can do it well. It's just that the match-up percentages would be something more like 60%-40%, and I'd rather that percentage be higher. I'm running just as much targeted removal and sweepers as I can. It's hard for me to add much more to the current build that I really think I might just pull the Sorin/Souls if I really have to. I do want to keep the superfriends feel, but it's looking harder and harder to justify.
wow I can't see how people do NOT run 4 of these, I know I was ticked because my build only ran 3 copies the other night and I cracked my 4th off my win packs and it went STRAIGHT IN MY DECK! The life gain and card draw is just back breaking .... sure for 3 mana with Forbidden Alchemy you push through 4 cards but you only keep 1. It's just awesome for me, I love the card.
If I get more, I'll give it a try. Just can't find anyone willing to trade/sell me. lol
I never have much use for Tamiyo. By that, I mean she rarely ever seems good. She's often just something to do with my mana. Sometimes though she is stellar when it comes time to lock down a man land or an obstinate thragtusk.
Tamiyo has been weird for me. I loved her at the start, but liked her less and less. She's great half the times, then the other half she can be disappointing. That was when I was running two though. I cut her down to one, and she's fine. Now I hardly see her at all. Haha.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
What concerns me is that no matter what I try, I can't seem to stabilize against aggro, at least, it's very shaky, with my current build. I mean, it CAN stabilize, and it can do it well. It's just that the match-up percentages would be something more like 60%-40%, and I'd rather that percentage be higher. I'm running just as much targeted removal and sweepers as I can. It's hard for me to add much more to the current build that I really think I might just pull the Sorin/Souls if I really have to. I do want to keep the superfriends feel, but it's looking harder and harder to justify.
I was once on the Superfriends push, but it just was not GREAT, it was good and I always did good with that style build, but I never could seem to win events with my deck built like that. I do not know the build you run but with my current build as I said earlier all I met this week was Aggro decks until I made Top 8 and I never had issues locking the board down.
Tamiyo has been weird for me. I loved her at the start, but liked her less and less. She's great half the times, then the other half she can be disappointing. That was when I was running two though. I cut her down to one, and she's fine. Now I hardly see her at all. Haha.
I am the total opposite with this card. When I land it is it when I can protect her or after I have everything locked down because as I said before in a previus post, when she ultimates, the game ENDS on the spot .... PERIOD! I played 5 rounds and 2 of those rounds this week I got her Ultimate and one of those two rounds I got her Ultimate in both of the 2-0 games I won with, then in the Top 8 I got an Ultimate again. She is just a sexy socks wearing babe <3
I like Tami, but she is expensive and dies to aggro. Jace is the aggro all star. I can't bring myself to run tam cause my deck tops out at 4cmc though, and I like it that way.
I like Tami, but she is expensive and dies to aggro. Jace is the aggro all star. I can't bring myself to run tam cause my deck tops out at 4cmc though, and I like it that way.
I do not play Tamiyo the Moon Sage until I have control of the board. usually the play is I sweep first, then play Tamiyo the Moon Sage next turn after that. This forces the opponent to over extend with another creature and then I can sweep and 2 for 1 them. This usually is the beginning of the end for them once I do these steps.
I was once on the Superfriends push, but it just was not GREAT, it was good and I always did good with that style build, but I never could seem to win events with my deck built like that. I do not know the build you run but with my current build as I said earlier all I met this week was Aggro decks until I made Top 8 and I never had issues locking the board down. Not much more I can say about this card other that I get a woody every time one resolves ;)I am the total opposite with this card. When I land it is it when I can protect her or after I have everything locked down because as I said before in a previus post, when she ultimates, the game ENDS on the spot .... PERIOD! I played 5 rounds and 2 of those rounds this week I got her Ultimate and one of those two rounds I got her Ultimate in both of the 2-0 games I won with, then in the Top 8 I got an Ultimate again. She is just a sexy socks wearing babe <3
This is currently what I'm running. Thinking of changing some things though.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Rofl, Dama, I do the exact same thing with Sorin! Like the exact same thing, but chumping with the vamp token instead of locking a permanent. I just picked Sorin because the lifegaining is pretty sick, and I can start doing it T6 with counterspell backup, or T4 if they only have one creature/are tapped out. I guess great minds think alike though!
But yea, I would imagine with the number of board wipes and removal you run, getting that tami emblem isn't too hard. But let me ask, do you ever Ultimate Jace? I notice you don't mention him too much, but I find him a super viable win con, as good as Tami or Sorin or Jace Mem Ad. Drownyard is nice because it is hard to kill, but pulling a wincon from your opponent is pretty darn sexy.
I have yet to Ultimate him yet, so far he has been 100% a card drawing engine. I assume in the future he will get to Ultimate vs some random Control deck but so far not yet.
Seeing how you win choose to win games, it actually does make sense that you Love Tamiyo. I'm lazy, so I like sticking Big Jace and milling them over three turns. But if you enjoy sitting(which is very reasonable), Tamiyo, will just make the opponent scoop, screw winning the game.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
How and when do you guys +1 with Jace, Architect of Thought? Have you guys found it to be useful? In tight situations, I still prefer to -2, as the +1 is a tad clunky. I find it kinda...shaky. Like, it's pretty good at weakening the damage output, but sometimes I feel like if I don't have a follow-up, it's a little bit of a waste.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I find that once you stabilize, assuming you arnt worried about d spheres, you can just tick jace up, especially against aggro, and then just pop him, grab a fresh one, and take one of their bombs to put pressure on them while you go to town with jace again.
A) Desperately looking for answers.
B) You think you're gonna take a decent chunk of damage and want to "trick" your opponent into killing Jace.
C) Control mirror whenever you can and aren't exposed to restoration angel
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Seeing how you win choose to win games, it actually does make sense that you Love Tamiyo. I'm lazy, so I like sticking Big Jace and milling them over three turns. But if you enjoy sitting(which is very reasonable), Tamiyo, will just make the opponent scoop, screw winning the game.
Yeah, this is exactly the problem with Tamiyo. I saw someone earlier say claim "sweeper -> Tamiyo" as proof of her being great, but that's applicable to just about any planeswalker. Tamiyo definitely isn't a bad card by any means and I still have her as a singleton, but if you manage to ultimate her in a game, something went horribly wrong on your opponents side and you probably were winning that one anyhow. Either they had no counterspell or Detention Sphere, or they were playing aggro and they could only afford one creature on the board. These scenarios aren't "wins" for Tamiyo, they're wins on account of your deck. Tamiyo is essentially Azor's Elocutors +Tumble Magnet.
Granted, I imagine she's much better against Aggro if you run 7 sweepers main deck.
A) Desperately looking for answers.
B) You think you're gonna take a decent chunk of damage and want to "trick" your opponent into killing Jace.
C) Control mirror whenever you can and aren't exposed to restoration angel
If you're ultimating Jace, I'd say you're making him another Tamiyo; you want a win-more to wrap up an already locked-up game. I've done that plenty of times, but for the most part I always -2 him unless my opponent would kill him and I'm hitting land drops and have plays for the following turns. All he's really worth is drawing cards, except for those rare board states where he locks down a bunch of Spirit tokens or whatnot. The fact that you have to work to make him better than Ponder/Preordain led me to cut him from my deck for more Think Twice's.
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To be fair there is A LOT of hate running around against Lingering Souls making it not as good. Rancor goes over the top, and lots of decks run cards that completely hose it (D. Sphere, Sever, Izzet Staticaster, Wraths, Bonfire, Kessig Wolf Run, etc.).
It is the primary reason I chose to add in another PW and some more targeted removal. A shame too, because the card is really good, but poorly positioned in this meta. :/
To be fair, a lot of the hate is marginal. Tokens getting D sphere'd isn't bad cause that means there not getting used on walkers and control mirrors are won on the back of drownyard.
Wraths, same thing really. Actively bad in the control matchup.
Wolf Run is a problem card in general and isn't making souls worse. It's just being annoying in general.
Staticaster is a board card and souls are generally bad against staticaster decks anyways.
Bonfire, sever, and Thundermaw are the only cards that make lingering souls look bad IMO.
^This...like, super this. :/ I loved Lingering Souls + Sorin when the format started, but lately I've been very disappointed. They get trolled over by stuff like Rancor...and anything with Trample or First Strike. They're good for stalling but recently, I haven't been satisfied with how they have been stalling; just doesn't seem to have the same impact as they did a while back. Hell, I've lost to R/G Werewolves plenty of times on Cockatrice, because Souls doesn't do much of anything vs. Full Moon's Rise and Immerwolves.
I was considering taking them (Souls) out myself.
Aggro still seems to be a huge problem for me, even though I'm running 26 lands, 3 Terminus, and 3 Supreme Verdict -- with one in the side. Also running Sever 1/1 Main/side split. I'm playing Liliana because I she's just an all-time favorite card of mine this season...that, and I miss Solar Flare; used to run her 2-of there. Also why I'm playing Alchemy x3. Idk, I prefer it over Jace and Augur of Bolas personally, but I'm open to suggestions.
Also, how necessary is it to run 4x Sphinx's Revelation? I like the card, I really do, but since I'm running Alchemy, I haven't felt the need to run more than one, and I've never been crazy about running anymore than 2 or so.
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants:
3 Ultimate Price
2 Tragic Slip
3 Azorius Charm
3 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Dissipate
Planeswalker:
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sorceries:
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sever the Bloodline
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Island
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Nephalia Drownyard
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Detention Sphere
2 Purify the Grave
2 Erase
2 Negate
1 Dissipate
1 Curse of Echoes
To me this deck looks very consistent but also dreadfully boring to play (as compared to a Sorin / Souls build at least).
Also, let me mention that the synergy between Drogskol Reaver and Sorin is amazing (given that if you have both on the battlefield you have already won the game anyways).
Sure it could very well be my playstyle that has me saying this is a better build .... I dunno, but one thing I do know is after playing this build I know it handles aggro much better than my build before. Lingering Souls is a fine card, don't get me wrong, but vs Thundermaw.dec it is a horrible useless card. I pulled Lingering Souls because of how popular Thundermaw Hellkite is. Thundermaw Hellkite wrecks Lingering Souls. I went to Florida for a SCG-IQ and Thundermaw Hellkite was out of control, I go to the coast of Georgia and Thundermaw Hellkite is out of Control. For me it was a smart move then and it is still a smart move pulling Lingering Souls out of the deck completely. Even though I only ran into a American Midrange deck in the Semis, it was a good thing I pulled them because they would just been dead cards in this matchup. American Midrange is not the only deck that runs them either. RDW, B/R Aggro, Naya .... all 4 of these decks are top ranked decks in the current Standard format atm.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad was a tough choice on pulling but I listened to Nick's advise and pulled them and have never looked back. I was so afraid that pulling them would weaken my deck, the life loss from the dudes was another worry. having Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in my deck as a 3 of or even as a 2 of gave me that "comfortable, safe" feeling and I will not lie, when this tournament started I felt like the deck was weaker, and then the round 1 loss just wanted me to hammer that point home even more but as the night went on and I got the feeling for my new build it started feeling right and as each round went by I moved up in the ranks playing better people and better decks and it just ran smooth.
As I said while ago, Leaving those two guys in the build for others is NOT the wrong thing to do "but" I will try to hammer my point home to others on why I think my build is better and I want the same from everyone else. I would not expect less. I plan to play this deck more and get more test time with it in events to find ways to make it even better but one thing for sure that I found out is I do "not" need Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and Lingering Souls in my build for it to be a better deck. At first I really thought that I would regret pulling them but as I said it worked out really well for me in the end and I am glad I made this move.
PS: If I seamed to try to discourage others from keeping those two cards in there decks then that is my bad guys because I would never "mean" to do that. I tend to come off as being aggresive hehe .... that's just the way I am so don't take offense to that bud. I even said above that if it works for others then by all means they should play them. These forums are for everyone to push what they think is best on others and it is up to them to show that what THEY think is better.
You are saying Lingering Souls is good for helping against Aggro but until the Top 8 all I played against was Aggro and I never EVER had a problem with any of those decks and I don't Run Lingering Souls or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad for stalling and I did just fine. There was one time where it was vs the second G/W Aggro deck in G2 where he had me at 9 life an was swinging for 10 for the win, and I cast Think Twice with 4 mana open hoping for a Terminus and ended up pulling a Azorius Charm and bounced his dude and next turn I swept the board and followed next turn by Sphinx's Revelation so Lingering Souls coulda stalled better for me but it's just not that helpful overall for me.
wow I can't see how people do NOT run 4 of these, I know I was ticked because my build only ran 3 copies the other night and I cracked my 4th off my win packs and it went STRAIGHT IN MY DECK! The life gain and card draw is just back breaking .... sure for 3 mana with Forbidden Alchemy you push through 4 cards but you only keep 1. It's just awesome for me, I love the card.
Yea for some it may be boring, but I am a hard control player at heart and LOVE these long dull games hehe, I durdle my way through my matches and half the people I play against when I beat them they just walk away furious lol .... STUPID BORING ASS MIRACLING TOP DECKING TAMIYO ULTIMATING POS etc etc etc. Sure Drogskol Reaver and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad seems good, but I don't play either *wink* hehe. My deck does not win "most of the time" by beating my opponent, it usually wins by them being locked down so bad they just scoop to move to the next game, my build just has a way of making someone so mad they just scoop out of frustration.
As for the Sorin, Lord of Innistrad debate, I might try pulling a land, going back to 27 and adding 1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad to the main deck and see if it helps. I dunno, does not seem good for me, but 27 lands seems right but I have no clue what I would bring in for that one land.
ok my fingers hurt now
But I wanted to reply to everyone best I could.
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My last comment about sorin, because I don't want to beat a dead horse, but how can you not want to run a bunch of planeswalkers in a deck with that much removal? Or do you find jace and tam enough?
I think that is the thing he was saying. Sometimes the meta calls more for a proactive approach(like a controllish meta like yours). So maybe souls+sorin is better in that regard.
Play what you like and need.
To clarify, the only Esper build that I am running myself is the one without souls+sorin because I want to build the a streamlined deck with one unifying win condition. I don't want to have a subset secondary win condition.
They are actually enough. If he had to add another planeswalker in his build, it is better to add Jace, Memory Adept rather than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. This is because Jace synergizes with his wincons better than Sorin(I think his build wins by milling most of the time)
- H. L. Mencken
French Duel Commander
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer RUG
Jace, Architect of Thought is easily an all star in the deck vs Aggro (the faster aggro builds mostly) and if not used in that manner, he is an awesome card drawer. Tamiyo the Moon Sage is incredible! I usually just hold her to I am in complete control of the game and then slam her to the table and start ticking her up. I gotta make sure I have enough protection to keep her alive to get that ultimate, because that ultimate simply wins you the game on the spot. My last event I ultimated her 4 times that night and all but one time the other player just scooped on the spot or scoop the turn I "would" have did it. It wins games. So to answer your question .... yes, these are all I need.
Actually I pulled Jace, Memory Adept back to the sideboard to add the 4th Sphinx's Revelation but when it was in the deck main vs Aggro it was just dead, I never played it, besdies the for lands to Mill with are plenty vs Control decks game 1.
oh and actually MOST of my wins do not come from Milling, they come from people scooping out of frustration (truth).
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I'd also say the deck is fun to play. Depends on how much you like calculating the odds of hitting your next land drop. Seriously though, as good as it is, it's fairly straightforward to play. Play land. Daydream. EOT think twice. Wrath. Rinse repeat till 7+ lands are in play. Draw a new hand. I would say I really like 1 Memory adept in the main to let you go turbo on the milling or simply as a phyrexian arena.
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Control mirrors are generally as simple as hitting your land drops and playing more drownyards then the other guy, similar to UB control from last season. Sometimes you'll die to creatures, but those are usually games where you are way behind anyways.
I never have much use for Tamiyo. By that, I mean she rarely ever seems good. She's often just something to do with my mana. Sometimes though she is stellar when it comes time to lock down a man land or an obstinate thragtusk.
Jace is usually fine versus non Black or Red based aggro. I usually side jaces in against GW decks and sometimes against naya.
In my experience so far with this build is Tamiyo the Moon Sage is one the BEST cards in my deck, it is the only card in my deck that makes someone scoop on the spot when I Ultimate her.
As for bring the other 2 in vs those Aggro decks .... hmmm, I may try it and see how things go, it makes sense but I am not sure there needed in these matchups.
I want to say something that best describes my play style. Michael Loconto said something when he was in the finals of pro tour New York aka Showdown in New York ..... he said ............. "I like to take control of a game and then make it mine" and something else he said which fits me perfectly was "Slow and steady wins the race" and ever since he said that 16 years ago, "that" is how I play my games. I am a horrid Aggro player, I am control at heart. People that know me call my Esper build "gototime.dec" lol
edit: Just saw another build like mine take 1st at a Standard Premier event - http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4776245
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Idk, from my testing, Sorin/Souls really doesn't make the deck that much more exciting. It takes just as long to grind out -- maybe not as long; you end up using a lot of the souls to block against aggro, then when you finally get an emblem or two out, THEN you start swinging away.
As for other non-aggro matches, it's always a long grind anyhow.
Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the point between stalling/stabilizing and actually swinging for game feels just about the same, at least from my experience.
Yes, that's what I'm saying, but I'm actually in agreement with you, in that Souls just has been less and less appealing.
What concerns me is that no matter what I try, I can't seem to stabilize against aggro, at least, it's very shaky, with my current build. I mean, it CAN stabilize, and it can do it well. It's just that the match-up percentages would be something more like 60%-40%, and I'd rather that percentage be higher. I'm running just as much targeted removal and sweepers as I can. It's hard for me to add much more to the current build that I really think I might just pull the Sorin/Souls if I really have to. I do want to keep the superfriends feel, but it's looking harder and harder to justify.
If I get more, I'll give it a try. Just can't find anyone willing to trade/sell me. lol
Tamiyo has been weird for me. I loved her at the start, but liked her less and less. She's great half the times, then the other half she can be disappointing. That was when I was running two though. I cut her down to one, and she's fine. Now I hardly see her at all. Haha.
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I do not play Tamiyo the Moon Sage until I have control of the board. usually the play is I sweep first, then play Tamiyo the Moon Sage next turn after that. This forces the opponent to over extend with another creature and then I can sweep and 2 for 1 them. This usually is the beginning of the end for them once I do these steps.
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To Counter a Spell Jon Finkel Simply Taps Two Islands and Says No!
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This is currently what I'm running. Thinking of changing some things though.
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants:
3 Ultimate Price
2 Tragic Slip
3 Azorius Charm
3 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Dissipate
Planeswalker:
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sorceries:
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sever the Bloodline
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Island
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Nephalia Drownyard
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Detention Sphere
2 Purify the Grave
2 Erase
2 Negate
1 Dissipate
1 Curse of Echoes
But yea, I would imagine with the number of board wipes and removal you run, getting that tami emblem isn't too hard. But let me ask, do you ever Ultimate Jace? I notice you don't mention him too much, but I find him a super viable win con, as good as Tami or Sorin or Jace Mem Ad. Drownyard is nice because it is hard to kill, but pulling a wincon from your opponent is pretty darn sexy.
I have yet to Ultimate him yet, so far he has been 100% a card drawing engine. I assume in the future he will get to Ultimate vs some random Control deck but so far not yet.
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Experimental Kraj
A) Desperately looking for answers.
B) You think you're gonna take a decent chunk of damage and want to "trick" your opponent into killing Jace.
C) Control mirror whenever you can and aren't exposed to restoration angel
Yeah, this is exactly the problem with Tamiyo. I saw someone earlier say claim "sweeper -> Tamiyo" as proof of her being great, but that's applicable to just about any planeswalker. Tamiyo definitely isn't a bad card by any means and I still have her as a singleton, but if you manage to ultimate her in a game, something went horribly wrong on your opponents side and you probably were winning that one anyhow. Either they had no counterspell or Detention Sphere, or they were playing aggro and they could only afford one creature on the board. These scenarios aren't "wins" for Tamiyo, they're wins on account of your deck. Tamiyo is essentially Azor's Elocutors +Tumble Magnet.
Granted, I imagine she's much better against Aggro if you run 7 sweepers main deck.
If you're ultimating Jace, I'd say you're making him another Tamiyo; you want a win-more to wrap up an already locked-up game. I've done that plenty of times, but for the most part I always -2 him unless my opponent would kill him and I'm hitting land drops and have plays for the following turns. All he's really worth is drawing cards, except for those rare board states where he locks down a bunch of Spirit tokens or whatnot. The fact that you have to work to make him better than Ponder/Preordain led me to cut him from my deck for more Think Twice's.