Seriously, I can't find ANYTHING on this card. It's honestly one of the cards I'm most interested in from GTC and I pulled two from my limited packs I purchased. I really think there could be some decent control list focusing around this card (similar to the control level of Jund midrange with Olivia).
Cards such as Downsize, Hydrosurge, Agoraphobia can be solid enablers for both stalling and stealing creatures. They're all very cheap, in blue and easy to follow up on the turn after you drop Manipulator (provided you can also evolve him).
Now that's where the balance gets tricky. You can reduce practically any creature in Standard to a 0 power creature for long enough to steal them but you still need to sac at least one counter off Manipulator to steal it. As with most control oriented decks, creatures aren't in ample supply. Therefore, evolving him right after you drop him becomes slightly more difficult. So you have to question whether or not alternate options for getting 1/1 counters on him are worth it? Burst of Strength gives you a counter to spend and untaps your manips, so you can steal two creatures at one time, provided you originally had a counter on him. Forced Adaptation provides you with a steady stream of stealing power, provided you can keep you manips on the field and you don't get 2 for 1ed when playing it. Then, there are other direct routes like Increasing Savagery. Honestly, Master Biomancer has been performing the best for me thus far.
On top of getting your Manips, getting him out, getting counters on him and reducing your opponents, you have to protect him. Alpha Authority is an okay solution early on, but I'm not entirely sure I'd want to waste a card on it. I can help some of your creatures get through for beats. Honestly, the best way to protect him is just to get enough counters to get out of the range of spears and pillars.
My biggest problem building this deck around Manipulator though is how much of the deck should focus around Manipulator, how much should "make the deck work" like draw engine, creature control, etc.
I've looked at both BUG and Bant, and honestly I've felt the Bant deck has been more successful and easier to keep the list down near 60 (I had trouble figuring out what to cut). Bant was winning off the back of Biomancer+Tusk and Resto. If you hit a Biomancer, into another Biomancer into anything, it's coming in big. Manipulator was a next-to-non factor in any of my tests. Occasionally got out when I has 75% established, but definitely wasn't a game shifter. Still not a "winmore", as it was grab TMaw and shut down red but definitely not the Manipulator deck I was looking for. BUG focused more on the Manipulator deck, using Devour Flesh, tap cards and Curse of Death's Hold. When I didn't die instantly, it worked out but its early game was meh. I like Dimir charm though.
Anywho, I'm quite frustrated trying to figure this out and I really can't seem to find anyone talking about this so I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts.
I think it takes too much effort to make him work. Its almost easier to use Beguiler of Wills in a lot of situations. The manipulator is cheaper, yes, but the beguiler is likely more consistent.
It seems to me that he'd be at his best as an add-on to another strategy. He could fit in an Ooze Flux deck (as another 0 power evolver with some good reach), or possibly into an Esper token build with Lingering Souls and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. I agree that he seems to need Agoraphobia, etc. to make him reliably work - this will probably keep him from Tier 1 viability.
I feel like there are some good possibilities for a "Your creatures are mine" deck. But outside of trolling, I don't think it would be very competitive. Love the idea, though.
Do you really need to build around him? You need a way to give him bunch of counters like resto angel or talrand invocation and he will easily win you the game with 1 or 2 steals.
Do you really need to build around him? You need a way to give him bunch of counters like resto angel or talrand invocation and he will easily win you the game with 1 or 2 steals.
That's kind of how my Bant list was running. I was testing vs my Proxy mono-red (a list I play fairly well as my main deck, so I'm a good opponent for myself) because in my opinion, a deck isn't currently worth crap if it can't handle mono red (too much quick aggro in the meta and the deck is already a fairly solid deck against other slow midrange). My main focus was around Tusk+Resto+Biomancer because big Tusks and Big Restos are hard to deal with for aggro. However, if there was a solid draw into Hellrider or TMaw, a Manipulator could come in, grab the TMaw or Rider and that was basically game over. Not quite as fun as what I was originally going for with the Manips but he worked how he was designed honestly (a bomb in limited, a slightly recurable Mind control/Threaten in Constructed). All I know is that I fell in love with Biomancer through this testing lol.
Like OP said, a player could always dump a bunch of counters onto him with Increasing Savagery. Then you're set! I'd go that route, personally. Then you can mana ramp and flash it back for even more counters.
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UBR Sedris RG Omnath, Locus of Rage UB The Scarab God RUG Maelstrom Wanderer WU Dragonlord Ojutai
Simic Manipulator + Agoraphobia is a sick combo. I'm just worried at how vulnerable simic manipulator is as a 0/1. Also I'm not sure where it would even fit.
I've liked him so far in my Ooze testing. He's an odd one for sure, but the ability to redistrbute counters towards him in order to grab something threatening has given my opponents pause more than once.
I love this topic, and as far as what I have been doing is giving the current available cards a real good look over to see if any hidden gems exist to further improve the thief's effectiveness.
But also I have been looking at the current meta, to see if any preexisting shells, with a little tweeking(or a lot), could be a good home for the Manipulator. I think the card's potential alone is worth at least trying, for me anyways. I just think a home will be difficult, but if fortified with enough staying power, I think it could become something. Tier 1 is an uphill battle, but something. I'm still at working on trying to figure it out, as I'm sure a lot of us are. Gl
If you wanted to be really janky, you could run a UGx control deck and use him AND Beguiler of Wills with +1/+1 counter giving spells (increasing savagery anyone? or Ring of Evos Isle) and just steal everything
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
I think this card has a lot of potential, but not as a build around me card. I see it being powerful in Bant as a sideboard card. It's power is in stealing smallish creatures like mana dorks, spirit tokens and various chump blockers. One or two counters gives it sway over some very important cards and in a Bant control shell it is not difficult to get those counters (township, augur, snapcaster, resto, etc).
Simic Manipulator + Agoraphobia is a sick combo. I'm just worried at how vulnerable simic manipulator is as a 0/1. Also I'm not sure where it would even fit.
Unless I'm reading it wrong..I'm pretty sure that you have to remove a counter from the Manipulator as part of the cost..so I don't think this would even work.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Unless I'm reading it wrong..I'm pretty sure that you have to remove a counter from the Manipulator as part of the cost..so I don't think this would even work.
You do. Honestly, I think he'd have been awesome but not OP if you didn't have to remove any counters for 0 power creatures. Little disappointing. He should have had built in "at the beginning of your upkeep, put a 1/1 counter on Simic Manipulator" at least.
It's a sideboard card, at best. The field seems kind of hostile towards a 0/1 creature that takes over 2 turns to do something meaningful.
However, one thing he and the other evolve creatures of note, had me consider is how many effects that place +1/+1 counters are there in the current Standard? A few cards come to mind:
I really have no idea if some kind of UG tempo/fish deck is possible but these cards here might be a good place to start...
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Ok I am totally working on a deck revolving around this guy my goal is to use nimbus swimmers as +1/+1 dumptrucks and bioshifts to unload I am thinking either biomancer or gyre sage to pump and also using ghostly flicker to trigger evolve in my favor.
My dream is to miracle Blessings of Nature this guy and steal pretty much whatever I want.
Because you don't really need to "invest" in him to benefit (playing creatures is what most decks do regardless, and that's what will trigger evolve.) and Blessings will boost any creature (so not a dead card unless your board is empty) I think he could be standard playable. (maybe)
He's a threat that either forces your opponent to waste a burn, or get his stuff stolen. And he's not too expensive. Not to mention the Zameck Guildmage can make him come in with +1/+1 If you have the mana.
Maybe I'm stretching it a bit, but I love this card.
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Cards such as Downsize, Hydrosurge, Agoraphobia can be solid enablers for both stalling and stealing creatures. They're all very cheap, in blue and easy to follow up on the turn after you drop Manipulator (provided you can also evolve him).
Now that's where the balance gets tricky. You can reduce practically any creature in Standard to a 0 power creature for long enough to steal them but you still need to sac at least one counter off Manipulator to steal it. As with most control oriented decks, creatures aren't in ample supply. Therefore, evolving him right after you drop him becomes slightly more difficult. So you have to question whether or not alternate options for getting 1/1 counters on him are worth it? Burst of Strength gives you a counter to spend and untaps your manips, so you can steal two creatures at one time, provided you originally had a counter on him. Forced Adaptation provides you with a steady stream of stealing power, provided you can keep you manips on the field and you don't get 2 for 1ed when playing it. Then, there are other direct routes like Increasing Savagery. Honestly, Master Biomancer has been performing the best for me thus far.
On top of getting your Manips, getting him out, getting counters on him and reducing your opponents, you have to protect him. Alpha Authority is an okay solution early on, but I'm not entirely sure I'd want to waste a card on it. I can help some of your creatures get through for beats. Honestly, the best way to protect him is just to get enough counters to get out of the range of spears and pillars.
My biggest problem building this deck around Manipulator though is how much of the deck should focus around Manipulator, how much should "make the deck work" like draw engine, creature control, etc.
I've looked at both BUG and Bant, and honestly I've felt the Bant deck has been more successful and easier to keep the list down near 60 (I had trouble figuring out what to cut). Bant was winning off the back of Biomancer+Tusk and Resto. If you hit a Biomancer, into another Biomancer into anything, it's coming in big. Manipulator was a next-to-non factor in any of my tests. Occasionally got out when I has 75% established, but definitely wasn't a game shifter. Still not a "winmore", as it was grab TMaw and shut down red but definitely not the Manipulator deck I was looking for. BUG focused more on the Manipulator deck, using Devour Flesh, tap cards and Curse of Death's Hold. When I didn't die instantly, it worked out but its early game was meh. I like Dimir charm though.
Anywho, I'm quite frustrated trying to figure this out and I really can't seem to find anyone talking about this so I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts.
Simic Manipulator takes the Thragtusk.
Blink Thrag with...Cloudshift? Maybe?
I feel like there are some good possibilities for a "Your creatures are mine" deck. But outside of trolling, I don't think it would be very competitive. Love the idea, though.
idk, seems shaky right now, in a more midrange meta, i'd say go for it. Right now, too slow.
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That's kind of how my Bant list was running. I was testing vs my Proxy mono-red (a list I play fairly well as my main deck, so I'm a good opponent for myself) because in my opinion, a deck isn't currently worth crap if it can't handle mono red (too much quick aggro in the meta and the deck is already a fairly solid deck against other slow midrange). My main focus was around Tusk+Resto+Biomancer because big Tusks and Big Restos are hard to deal with for aggro. However, if there was a solid draw into Hellrider or TMaw, a Manipulator could come in, grab the TMaw or Rider and that was basically game over. Not quite as fun as what I was originally going for with the Manips but he worked how he was designed honestly (a bomb in limited, a slightly recurable Mind control/Threaten in Constructed). All I know is that I fell in love with Biomancer through this testing lol.
UBR Sedris
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage
UB The Scarab God
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer
WU Dragonlord Ojutai
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
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But also I have been looking at the current meta, to see if any preexisting shells, with a little tweeking(or a lot), could be a good home for the Manipulator. I think the card's potential alone is worth at least trying, for me anyways. I just think a home will be difficult, but if fortified with enough staying power, I think it could become something. Tier 1 is an uphill battle, but something. I'm still at working on trying to figure it out, as I'm sure a lot of us are. Gl
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
GW Aggro
EDH:
BUG Damia Landfall
RW [Primer] Brion Stoutarm
R Bosh's Bash
Unless I'm reading it wrong..I'm pretty sure that you have to remove a counter from the Manipulator as part of the cost..so I don't think this would even work.
I know, right? I'm hoping he gets to down around 5 bucks
You do. Honestly, I think he'd have been awesome but not OP if you didn't have to remove any counters for 0 power creatures. Little disappointing. He should have had built in "at the beginning of your upkeep, put a 1/1 counter on Simic Manipulator" at least.
However, one thing he and the other evolve creatures of note, had me consider is how many effects that place +1/+1 counters are there in the current Standard? A few cards come to mind:
These three are probably the most interesting as far as constructed is concerned. Another interesting choice of those counters could be the M13 Ring cycle, specifically Ring of Evos Isle and Ring of Kalonia. The green one especially has some nifty "synergies" with Experiment One, Gyre Sage, Fathom Mage & Master Biomancer.
I really have no idea if some kind of UG tempo/fish deck is possible but these cards here might be a good place to start...
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I just reread Evolve and it states "whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control".
That seems iffy to me.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Negative. The creature is already on the battlefield, it's just changing controllers.
Because you don't really need to "invest" in him to benefit (playing creatures is what most decks do regardless, and that's what will trigger evolve.) and Blessings will boost any creature (so not a dead card unless your board is empty) I think he could be standard playable. (maybe)
He's a threat that either forces your opponent to waste a burn, or get his stuff stolen. And he's not too expensive. Not to mention the Zameck Guildmage can make him come in with +1/+1 If you have the mana.
Maybe I'm stretching it a bit, but I love this card.