2 Esper control decks made the top 4 at this weekends SCG open. We all know the meta is quite fast with Naya aggro, mono red aggro, Boros aggro, Gruul, etc. So what makes Esper so good right now?
1 build runns 8 plainswalkers mainboard. 2 of each for the big guys. Jace, Sorrin, Tamiyo, and Liliana.
The 2nd build only runs 2 plainswalkers and the usuall control shell.
Esper is one of the few decks that can completely ignore Boros Reckoner (even infinite life doesn't really matter to Esper) and play 4++ mainboard sweepers. Also, since the main kill condition are lands, Esper can dedicate more card slots to play even more anti-aggro cards.
It's still not colorless, and has no color. That's a paradox. So either you're a Zen master or an idiot, I'll assume the Zen master for sake of argument. This card will have no paradoxes because it has a clear paradox. Deep stuff man.
So much for the "control can't survive in this meta" crowd. I'm an aggro player at heart but I love seeing esper perform so well. Makes the format healthy and interesting... Also very good for the game in general.
This is a really good standard year imo. A new top deck seems to win every week. Can't ask for much more.
sweepers the game. If you don't start with a sweeper or draw into one by t4 you're going to lose. thats what this game comes down to nowadays. OF course the deck that runs the most sweepers is going to do good.
i think its particularly effective because of the mill plan. with all the Thragtusks and sphinx's revelation derping around in the format there is simply no way with the cards available for a control deck to win the traditional way. imill is proving to be very effective.and actually makes revelation that much worse lol
i think its particularly effective because of the mill plan. with all the Thragtusks and sphinx's revelation derping around in the format there is simply no way with the cards available for a control deck to win the traditional way. imill is proving to be very effective.and actually makes revelation that much worse lol
Exactly
Sure, draw seven with you revelation. Seven cards less that I have to mill.
How many made top 8 is not entirely relevant you know. It is also important to look at what decks made day 2, with strong records and how many of this decks.
You also have to take into account that Saito's lists were public knowledge going into the event which means it was most certainly an anticipated deck going into the event as opposed to something that probably could have swarmed day 2 with strong showing in top 16 and top 8 had the deck had a lid kept on it. There are a lot of factors to look at when trying to determine what decks are strong overall choices and understanding how the top 8 was shaped
Are they even using this card? I've only heard of maybe 2 (?) in the sideboard.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Esper didn't do so well at the pro tour, second most popular deck (12.5% of the field) with a 46% win rate (worst of all decks with more than 10 players). More info here and here.
Esper didn't do so well at the pro tour, second most popular deck (12.5% of the field) with a 46% win rate (worst of all decks with more than 10 players). More info here and here.
Esper didn't do so well at the pro tour, second most popular deck (12.5% of the field) with a 46% win rate (worst of all decks with more than 10 players). More info here and here.
Although it may seem like small changes in Esper decks aren't a big deal-- they greatly affect how the deck plays and its MUs plenty.
Meanwhile, a lot of the decks at the top of that second page's chart are all pretty much stock lists, that vary only by a few cards at most, and the changes only affect MUs and how they play by a small %.
EDIT: It's low win % is not surprising given how it had such a high % of the field, too. This correlation is seen very frequently in Magic. People still played Jund in Modern (before the banning), to much success, despite it having one of the lowest win %s of multiple high level tournaments (at the PT-level and the GP-level). It also had a high % of the those tournaments' fields, too.
Yes, the two Obediences in both the Esper deck's sideboards surely were responsible for their strong showing and them being "> most aggro".
...
The card is pretty terrible and 0 in the top 8 in Montreal emphasize that.
Considering maybe 2/3's of the decks were control or midrange.... Blind Obedience is not very good against those decks.
If you're in a meta with a lot of Haste, Obedience is just insane. In my meta, I main deck 3. I have the 4th in my side board, and it comes in quite often. It performs very well, and the extort can really help put you of of burn range if you get low.
Removing Haste from mono red = you're WAY ahead of them already
Esper didn't do so well at the pro tour, second most popular deck (12.5% of the field) with a 46% win rate (worst of all decks with more than 10 players). More info here and here.
This is very common. Even for a deck like Jund in Modern, where is made up a HUGE % and lost a lot....well that's because someone has to lose in the mirrors. It was still the best deck, obviously.
There was a lot of Esper, and and a lot of Esper most likely got paired against each other...
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I know what it does, what does it DO?
-Michael Jacob
This is very common. Even for a deck like Jund in Modern, where is made up a HUGE % and lost a lot....well that's because someone has to lose in the mirrors. It was still the best deck, obviously.
There was a lot of Esper, and and a lot of Esper most likely got paired against each other...
You know that the win % EXCLUDES mirror match?
So, mirror match play no role in determining the win %.
Instead, my theory is that when a deck is perceived to be powerful, many more players will simply get the deck, without much testing, and then go to the tournament. These players will usually lose heavily, thus bringing down the win % a bit.
Exactly. The card is terrible against everything but haste-reliant red decks which means that maindecking it is pretty dumb unless you play those decks almost exclusively. Such a meta doesn't exist at tournament circuits right now and even on modo just to some extent, so I just wholeheartedly laugh at the face of everyone maindecking it.
Still you spent a card, two mana and a turn doing basically nothing until they play something with hase or can use extort. The card is far worse than what people think it is.
I've been playing Esper Drownyard solidly for the last 2 months now, and I was dubious about maindecking this card. Till a week ago, thought I'd try Osyp's angle and changed up my build to include 3 Blind Obedience...
I have to say it made a huge difference. Outside of just 'shutdown haste/aggro/mono red' the card has the ability to be a mana sink + life gain in the mid to late game. Usually I stabilize around Turn 5 or 6, so after every time I play something I always have more than enough lands sitting around that I can extort with. At several points when I was hovering around 3-4 life, I managed to claw my way out of burn range, just for extorting stuff I'd be doing anyway like flashing back Feeling of Dread or Think Twice.
With two out on the field, it gets NUTS. Late game, with two BO's out, I'd be double extorting Think Twice, then FoD, or Devour Flesh. That's 4 life gain, and 4 damage to my opponent's face on TOP of whatever spell I was extorting! Takes soo much pressure off of just leaning on big Sphinx's Revelations or sweepers to survive.
And that wasn't just "situational"; over 5 rounds at last week's FNM, i was extorting in at least 4 matches against 3 different opponents, works a treat against midrange decks too. There's not much maindeck hate against enchantments in the current meta, so until Abrupt Decay starts making a big comeback (which will probably be soon), this card is going to chalk up HEAPS more wins for Esper control.
Esper is lousy against real aggro decks. what its good against are the slower midrange beatdown decks like Naya. its also got a pretty good matchup against the UWR deck, which is basically a control deck thats overloaded with cheap removal (the burn) and lacking in good control mirror cards (like extra card drawing and countermagic).
If you reach that so called "late game" against aggro decks you basically have the game won already, no matter what you do.
Those 1-2 points of heal you got (that were important) better make up for the card you could've played instead.
Most other decks don't care that much about either, lifegain or haste prevention which is why it's terrible in general and "ok" against red while being "good" turn 2 on the play against them. Always remember, those couple life against midrange cost you a card and two mana - a trade I wouldn't make.
It's so much more than 2 points of life, the card is very good, if you play it in a slow control deck it does a lot.
I will agree though that its better on turn 2 against aggro for obvious reasons, but that's also why you don't play it as a 1 or 2 of and it's not meant to be your only tool for the first 3 turns of the game against aggro, cause if it is, then sure, you're probably gonna be dead anyway.
If you reach that so called "late game" against aggro decks you basically have the game won already, no matter what you do.
Those 1-2 points of heal you got (that were important) better make up for the card you could've played instead.
I'm gonna say that I agree with you in so far as
a) Blind Obedience is not going to auto-magically win you games (mid,late or otherwise). Correct play decisions do that. You could still lose a game at any point, particularly if you underestimate or misread a deck.
b) Blind Obedience is not the 'best' card in every single match up.
I was just saying the Extort lifegain and damage are a bonus for stuff i'm already doing anyways, and I actually have spare mana I can use mid or late-game. BO is not the backbone of my deck, but it is a cool new Toy for Esper because now you can actually grind down your opponents health as well (for additional pressure), not just Drownyard them into a coma. More pressure = higher chance they'll make a bad play.
I rarely if ever do anything on T2 apart from a Think Twice (maybe) or an Azorius Charm (maybe). Usually i'm ok with taking 1 or 2 damage to the face on T2 or 3. My particular build has NO creatures maindeck (no snaps, no Augurs), so the extra lifegain is crucial for survival in G1. The OP was discussing Esper Control, so in an Esper control list BO would work just fine on T2, because usually you wouldn't really be doing much anyway.
Esper players feel free to agree or disagree here, but usually after stabilizing, with 27 lands in my deck, I'm in a position to cast a second Blind obedience, leave mana open to play a potential counter or removal (with extort :D), and sometimes still activate my Drownyard. That's not a bad deal IMHO!:cool2:
It's good that Esper has something else apart from just 'hurrr durr I sphinx for 6...' <yawwn>
The meta is still in relatively early days, so let's not write off cards just yet.
I've lost enough games to Blind Obedience simply because of Extort but there had to be multiples. Local players have claimed this is the aggro hoser because of the come into play tapped issue.
Coincidently I have won enough games against Blind Obedience because they turned it into a do nothing card. Had plenty of matches where they dropped it, I build a bit of a field, drop hellrider tapped and still swing for ridiculous damage.
It is an okay card but if your strategy is to win by using land you are just better off packing more removal than allowing an aggro player jam the board.
1 build runns 8 plainswalkers mainboard. 2 of each for the big guys. Jace, Sorrin, Tamiyo, and Liliana.
The 2nd build only runs 2 plainswalkers and the usuall control shell.
What makes Esper so good against aggro?
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This is a really good standard year imo. A new top deck seems to win every week. Can't ask for much more.
Exactly
Sure, draw seven with you revelation. Seven cards less that I have to mill.
You also have to take into account that Saito's lists were public knowledge going into the event which means it was most certainly an anticipated deck going into the event as opposed to something that probably could have swarmed day 2 with strong showing in top 16 and top 8 had the deck had a lid kept on it. There are a lot of factors to look at when trying to determine what decks are strong overall choices and understanding how the top 8 was shaped
Are they even using this card? I've only heard of maybe 2 (?) in the sideboard.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
Edit: oh I see now, they are playing early game removal, that's all
it still made the top 4
Although it may seem like small changes in Esper decks aren't a big deal-- they greatly affect how the deck plays and its MUs plenty.
Meanwhile, a lot of the decks at the top of that second page's chart are all pretty much stock lists, that vary only by a few cards at most, and the changes only affect MUs and how they play by a small %.
EDIT: It's low win % is not surprising given how it had such a high % of the field, too. This correlation is seen very frequently in Magic. People still played Jund in Modern (before the banning), to much success, despite it having one of the lowest win %s of multiple high level tournaments (at the PT-level and the GP-level). It also had a high % of the those tournaments' fields, too.
Considering maybe 2/3's of the decks were control or midrange.... Blind Obedience is not very good against those decks.
If you're in a meta with a lot of Haste, Obedience is just insane. In my meta, I main deck 3. I have the 4th in my side board, and it comes in quite often. It performs very well, and the extort can really help put you of of burn range if you get low.
Removing Haste from mono red = you're WAY ahead of them already
-Michael Jacob
This is very common. Even for a deck like Jund in Modern, where is made up a HUGE % and lost a lot....well that's because someone has to lose in the mirrors. It was still the best deck, obviously.
There was a lot of Esper, and and a lot of Esper most likely got paired against each other...
-Michael Jacob
You know that the win % EXCLUDES mirror match?
So, mirror match play no role in determining the win %.
Instead, my theory is that when a deck is perceived to be powerful, many more players will simply get the deck, without much testing, and then go to the tournament. These players will usually lose heavily, thus bringing down the win % a bit.
I've been playing Esper Drownyard solidly for the last 2 months now, and I was dubious about maindecking this card. Till a week ago, thought I'd try Osyp's angle and changed up my build to include 3 Blind Obedience...
I have to say it made a huge difference. Outside of just 'shutdown haste/aggro/mono red' the card has the ability to be a mana sink + life gain in the mid to late game. Usually I stabilize around Turn 5 or 6, so after every time I play something I always have more than enough lands sitting around that I can extort with. At several points when I was hovering around 3-4 life, I managed to claw my way out of burn range, just for extorting stuff I'd be doing anyway like flashing back Feeling of Dread or Think Twice.
With two out on the field, it gets NUTS. Late game, with two BO's out, I'd be double extorting Think Twice, then FoD, or Devour Flesh. That's 4 life gain, and 4 damage to my opponent's face on TOP of whatever spell I was extorting! Takes soo much pressure off of just leaning on big Sphinx's Revelations or sweepers to survive.
And that wasn't just "situational"; over 5 rounds at last week's FNM, i was extorting in at least 4 matches against 3 different opponents, works a treat against midrange decks too. There's not much maindeck hate against enchantments in the current meta, so until Abrupt Decay starts making a big comeback (which will probably be soon), this card is going to chalk up HEAPS more wins for Esper control.
It's so much more than 2 points of life, the card is very good, if you play it in a slow control deck it does a lot.
I will agree though that its better on turn 2 against aggro for obvious reasons, but that's also why you don't play it as a 1 or 2 of and it's not meant to be your only tool for the first 3 turns of the game against aggro, cause if it is, then sure, you're probably gonna be dead anyway.
I'm gonna say that I agree with you in so far as
a) Blind Obedience is not going to auto-magically win you games (mid,late or otherwise). Correct play decisions do that. You could still lose a game at any point, particularly if you underestimate or misread a deck.
b) Blind Obedience is not the 'best' card in every single match up.
I was just saying the Extort lifegain and damage are a bonus for stuff i'm already doing anyways, and I actually have spare mana I can use mid or late-game. BO is not the backbone of my deck, but it is a cool new Toy for Esper because now you can actually grind down your opponents health as well (for additional pressure), not just Drownyard them into a coma. More pressure = higher chance they'll make a bad play.
I rarely if ever do anything on T2 apart from a Think Twice (maybe) or an Azorius Charm (maybe). Usually i'm ok with taking 1 or 2 damage to the face on T2 or 3. My particular build has NO creatures maindeck (no snaps, no Augurs), so the extra lifegain is crucial for survival in G1. The OP was discussing Esper Control, so in an Esper control list BO would work just fine on T2, because usually you wouldn't really be doing much anyway.
Esper players feel free to agree or disagree here, but usually after stabilizing, with 27 lands in my deck, I'm in a position to cast a second Blind obedience, leave mana open to play a potential counter or removal (with extort :D), and sometimes still activate my Drownyard. That's not a bad deal IMHO!:cool2:
It's good that Esper has something else apart from just 'hurrr durr I sphinx for 6...' <yawwn>
The meta is still in relatively early days, so let's not write off cards just yet.
Coincidently I have won enough games against Blind Obedience because they turned it into a do nothing card. Had plenty of matches where they dropped it, I build a bit of a field, drop hellrider tapped and still swing for ridiculous damage.
It is an okay card but if your strategy is to win by using land you are just better off packing more removal than allowing an aggro player jam the board.
People forgot that they need to build aggro in a way to not fold to sweepers.