Personally I ran 3 Domri Friday night and went 3-1. Played 4 Domri's yesterday and wen't 5-1 (3rd place at a TCG silver event).
Against control it was absolutely insane - I hit him on turn 2 and got him to ultimate, drawing 3 cards off it. Control isn't running good mainboard planeswalker hate. Against Naya I dropped him and drew a creature and he had to drop his in response which allowed me the win.
Personally I think he's quite good. 20$ good? Probably. To suggest G.Primal or G. Relentless are superior, I think is reaching. I can't mainboard either of those - they fit nitch matchups and landing a Garruk is tricky anyway since they are ready with counter magic. They aren't prepared to counter a walker on turn 2 or 3 and if it happens its just about a 100% automatic win. Which against control is very relevant.
May be worded wrong. My opponent was playing 4 Color and he got to see that a Bonfire was coming up for him.
Yeah, I still don't understand this. Why would you ever want to telegraph Bonfire? If they know it's coming they'll just play more conservatively. The only time your opponent should see Bonfire is when you're sweeping their board.
I think the biggest thing people are missing here in general is context. Since this is the standard forum, it's safe to say that we need to talk about the context of viable standard decks. That said, I think Domri is really good and here's the reasoning:
The best arguments against Domri surface when you put him into context.
1. He fills a much needed slot for Jund/Naya or potentially RUG sitting at 3 mana and giving a solid board presence with potential card advantage. Especially when you consider the importance of hitting your 4 or 5 drops in those decks. He helps you get to them.
Firstly, Jund would never run this unless .15-.25CA sounds appealing to you.
Secondly, saying this allows you to draw into the top end of your curve is just silly. On average, in your typical Naya Midrange build, it'd take something like 5 turns of Domri using his +1 to draw into a single piece of your top end. That doesn't sound very reliable to me.
If you're really that concerned with grabbing Huntmaster, Restoration Angel, Thragtusk and etc. run Signal the Clans instead. Optimally, run neither.
I guess I'm failing to see how he's "filling a much needed slot" when he just seems rather inferior to everything else outside of the control match-up. Control isn't even that prevalent right now as they're waiting for the meta to take shape first.
2. I saw a lot of comment about LotV. The fact is she's actually really bad in standard right now though. Don't get me wrong, she's an amazing card and I'd play her a ton, anywhere but standard right now. Huntmaster, Thragtusk, Zombies, Lingering Souls and Unburial Rites all make her a bad play and between the lot of the things that make her bad, the majority of the field is running one or more. Domri, on the other hand, provides value regardless of what is happening on the other side of the board. There's no need to try and break symmetry like there has been with other 3-drop walkers. So what if he whiffs every now and again. He's a 3-mana walker that isn't symmetrical.
Ehm, LotV is actually rather good right now. It's no coincidence that every Jund deck to top 32 at SCG:ATL ran some number of her MB.
This is besides the point though. Just because Domri Rade is a 3CMC PW without a symmetrical effect doesn't automatically make him good. You seem to have forgotten that Ajani, Caller of the Pride is a card.
Yeah, I still don't understand this. Why would you ever want to telegraph Bonfire? If they know it's coming they'll just play more conservatively. The only time your opponent should see Bonfire is when you're sweeping their board.
I think you misunderstand, only the person with Dormi will know that a bonfire is happening the next turn, the opponent will only know that the top card is probably not a creature.
Knowing that you are going to get to bonfire next turn is valuable.
Along a similar line you could also use the +1 in combination with cards like farseek to shuffle away cards on top of your library that you don't want.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
So I pulled a Domri in Prerelease 2HG and decided, what the hell, I'll build Domri.dek. Solid aggro Jund, two other noncreature spells, basically being a distraction deck to allow my partner (with both of our Simic guild packs) to sit behind a wall of Fathom Mages and eventually win. I drew Dom in my opening hand all three rounds, played him, durdled around with him. The main problem is that an aggro deck can't protect him very well because he's such a tiny dude. The first flyer that came around was able to knock him out if I couldn't fight-trade it, and he can't Pit Fight all that often. We ended up winning the 2HG pool, because he is an amazing 2-headed giant attention magnet, but my first impression is that he is suboptimal.
He's a 3-mana walker, meaning he sort of automatically gets serious contention. Naya and Jund can also be a kind of grindy, midrange decks if they want, and his +1 and -2 are both grindy abilities.
I'm not sure where he fits now, but any 3 mana walker that can give card advantage and removal is certainly worth considering. He's no liliana of the veil, but I think he will see play. Does suck that he can't protect himself if your side is empty or they have a bigger creature.
Domri does something every turn that we did not have: draw a card by chance. Garruk 3.0 does this at 5 frelling mana and requires a dude. Domri does not require a dude for draw. Although Garruk 3.0 or 2.0 is awsome with Domri when thinking about it.
Don't diss the card. It's card draw people for 3 mana.
Some deck will make use of him. somehow. and he'll be good.
I dunno, i like the card. i dont think its bad. I think you just need to find a way to use him right
Thing is, if you "just need to find a way to use him right" (ie: build around him) and the payoff is a bad card-advantage engine, instead of OMGWINTHEGAME, is he worth a slot?
Garruk, Primal Hunter is disgusting versus control because he's making you a constant stream of threats they need to deal with, Domri just occasionally draws you a card while not putting any pressure on the board.
...but Garruk, Primal Hunter is a five drop in GGG and Domri's a three drop in RG? I don't see your point. You basically said "This card that costs 3 does less than a card that costs 5. BAD."
I use the Duels Of The Planeswalkers layout, though I'm right-handed and keep my deck and GY to the left. I dare you to ask me how tempting it is to hold flying creatures in a floating pattern over the table.
...but Garruk, Primal Hunter is a five drop in GGG and Domri's a three drop in RG? I don't see your point. You basically said "This card that costs 3 does less than a card that costs 5. BAD."
No! Remember! Every card, from 1 drop to 6 drop have to OMGWTFIWINTHEGAME!! cards.
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After testing, I'm honestly still not sold on his MB inclusion. Maybe it's because a very large portion of my matches are against aggressive builds (I'm playing Naya Midrange myself) but there are so many situations where he's far from being apart of the optimal line of play.
There are times where I cannot feasibly protect him early game and it's not worth the risk of sending him out and "possibly" gaining advantage.
There are other times where I'm behind and he does absolutely nothing to dig me out of a hole.
It feels good dropping him T2 on the play, but that's obvious and it clearly won't be happening all too often. It also feels good dropping him after I've established some board presence and I'm trying to/can break board parity.
This card has some obvious merits, but until the meta slows down a bit I don't see him being the correct MB call. I will continue running him the SB however.
One note that doesn't seem to have been brought up yet in this thread: With control decks seemingly running next-to-no PW removal, I've been able to ultimate this card a surprisingly high percentage of the time against control decks. If you drop it on turn 3, it goes ultimate on turn 7, which is normally well before the control deck actually kills you, though normally after they take control.
The ultimate is, needless to say, a real pain for a control deck.
This should be accounted for in the evaluation of the card; that low mana cost and semi-CA on the +1 (letting you happily spam +1) are what make this possible.
This may change if control decks run more detention spheres and the like...the one time I've been very unhappy with it against control was when they had a pithing needle.
Ya I've ultid him against control and he's held grixis and Americas attention so long I win by default. Dropping him turn 2 is crazy. Dropping him after a Reckoner is also crazy.
comparing Domri to Primal Hunter is stupid. they're two completely different things on two completely different ends of the cmc spectrum.
even if he whiffs, you're building up to an ultimate with a free effect. Domri Rade isn't Phyrexian Arena or Jace Belerin, he's actually pretty unique (and bad compared to two of the best draw engines in a long time). it's the same argument I get into with people about Signal the Clans; it's not Eladamri's Call, it's Think Twice. the same sort of thing can be said here.
Take your monoblack deck, then set aside 14 swamps. Add 4 Creeping Tar Pits, 4 Darkslick Shores, 4 Drowned Catacombs, and 2 Jwar isle Refuge and add 4 Jace, the Mindsculptors. Your monoblack deck is instantly better. Better yet, drop those refuges, throw in some islands and some mana leaks, and lo and behold, you're now playing a real deck. Congratulations. Welcome to the world of competitive M:TG.
Domri's great, but you have to do more than just drop him into any old GR deck. I don't think it's even that great to make the choice based only on how many creatures your deck has.
I'm playing him in a Naya deck with 27 creatures, none of which are 1/1. All of the creatures have very good power-to-cost ratios, and that means that Domri's -2 ability is very good. Having a Domri on the board ticked up to 4 counters and sitting next to a Loxodon Smiter can be pretty demoralizing for a lot of decks to play against, but I think that fight ability is sort of getting overlooked. It's all about CA and ultimates.
He's not as good as Liliana of the Veil at the same cost, but she's pretty exceptional and doesn't need much support. Domri does need more support to be great and that means he's not as good as Liliana, but for 3 mana what is? I'm very happy with him.
So... I defended him pretty heavily before and I have to say that after a good amount of testing I'm really not as happy with him at the moment. I think the main reason is that he's such a lost play against the large amount of aggro in the meta right now. I think he'll be better as the metagame stabilizes as he's great against control and in midrange mirrors... he's just not something you want to see against an aggro deck though.
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Personally I ran 3 Domri Friday night and went 3-1. Played 4 Domri's yesterday and wen't 5-1 (3rd place at a TCG silver event).
Against control it was absolutely insane - I hit him on turn 2 and got him to ultimate, drawing 3 cards off it. Control isn't running good mainboard planeswalker hate. Against Naya I dropped him and drew a creature and he had to drop his in response which allowed me the win.
Personally I think he's quite good. 20$ good? Probably. To suggest G.Primal or G. Relentless are superior, I think is reaching. I can't mainboard either of those - they fit nitch matchups and landing a Garruk is tricky anyway since they are ready with counter magic. They aren't prepared to counter a walker on turn 2 or 3 and if it happens its just about a 100% automatic win. Which against control is very relevant.
Yeah, I still don't understand this. Why would you ever want to telegraph Bonfire? If they know it's coming they'll just play more conservatively. The only time your opponent should see Bonfire is when you're sweeping their board.
The best arguments against Domri surface when you put him into context.
Firstly, Jund would never run this unless .15-.25CA sounds appealing to you.
Secondly, saying this allows you to draw into the top end of your curve is just silly. On average, in your typical Naya Midrange build, it'd take something like 5 turns of Domri using his +1 to draw into a single piece of your top end. That doesn't sound very reliable to me.
If you're really that concerned with grabbing Huntmaster, Restoration Angel, Thragtusk and etc. run Signal the Clans instead. Optimally, run neither.
I guess I'm failing to see how he's "filling a much needed slot" when he just seems rather inferior to everything else outside of the control match-up. Control isn't even that prevalent right now as they're waiting for the meta to take shape first.
Ehm, LotV is actually rather good right now. It's no coincidence that every Jund deck to top 32 at SCG:ATL ran some number of her MB.
This is besides the point though. Just because Domri Rade is a 3CMC PW without a symmetrical effect doesn't automatically make him good. You seem to have forgotten that Ajani, Caller of the Pride is a card.
There's no correlation.
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That may actually be the only coherent, accurate argument I have heard for this card. Good for you.
I totally agree. I learned something new about Domri today. I'm happy now.
I think you misunderstand, only the person with Dormi will know that a bonfire is happening the next turn, the opponent will only know that the top card is probably not a creature.
Knowing that you are going to get to bonfire next turn is valuable.
Along a similar line you could also use the +1 in combination with cards like farseek to shuffle away cards on top of your library that you don't want.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Meanwhile, in the Modern Masters thread:
RRLONG AGO, THE FOUR COLORS LIVED IN HARMONYRR
RRBUT EVERYTHING CHANGED WHEN THE FIRE NATION ATTACKED RR
I'm not sure where he fits now, but any 3 mana walker that can give card advantage and removal is certainly worth considering. He's no liliana of the veil, but I think he will see play. Does suck that he can't protect himself if your side is empty or they have a bigger creature.
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Don't diss the card. It's card draw people for 3 mana.
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In the history of 3CC planeswalkers, he's about on par with Ajani and no where near as good as little jace or liliana.
But with the current meta, he might still have enough gas to get there.
For the record i think he's dumb but there might be enough use for him down the road.
I dunno, i like the card. i dont think its bad. I think you just need to find a way to use him right
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...but Garruk, Primal Hunter is a five drop in GGG and Domri's a three drop in RG? I don't see your point. You basically said "This card that costs 3 does less than a card that costs 5. BAD."
It does a lot. I expect to see a,lot more of this guy
No! Remember! Every card, from 1 drop to 6 drop have to OMGWTFIWINTHEGAME!! cards.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
not very many Domri Rade at the top, though.
There are times where I cannot feasibly protect him early game and it's not worth the risk of sending him out and "possibly" gaining advantage.
There are other times where I'm behind and he does absolutely nothing to dig me out of a hole.
It feels good dropping him T2 on the play, but that's obvious and it clearly won't be happening all too often. It also feels good dropping him after I've established some board presence and I'm trying to/can break board parity.
This card has some obvious merits, but until the meta slows down a bit I don't see him being the correct MB call. I will continue running him the SB however.
The ultimate is, needless to say, a real pain for a control deck.
This should be accounted for in the evaluation of the card; that low mana cost and semi-CA on the +1 (letting you happily spam +1) are what make this possible.
This may change if control decks run more detention spheres and the like...the one time I've been very unhappy with it against control was when they had a pithing needle.
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even if he whiffs, you're building up to an ultimate with a free effect. Domri Rade isn't Phyrexian Arena or Jace Belerin, he's actually pretty unique (and bad compared to two of the best draw engines in a long time). it's the same argument I get into with people about Signal the Clans; it's not Eladamri's Call, it's Think Twice. the same sort of thing can be said here.
I'm playing him in a Naya deck with 27 creatures, none of which are 1/1. All of the creatures have very good power-to-cost ratios, and that means that Domri's -2 ability is very good. Having a Domri on the board ticked up to 4 counters and sitting next to a Loxodon Smiter can be pretty demoralizing for a lot of decks to play against, but I think that fight ability is sort of getting overlooked. It's all about CA and ultimates.
He's not as good as Liliana of the Veil at the same cost, but she's pretty exceptional and doesn't need much support. Domri does need more support to be great and that means he's not as good as Liliana, but for 3 mana what is? I'm very happy with him.
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