Quicken is a neat card, but I've found I don't care for it. It would seem that with Jace, Divination and Sphinx that you have enough draw power to get relevant cards so long as you survive to cast them. You can also cantrip with charm, more and more cantrips are not what I'd suggest when you might simply want more cards that interact. I would only particularly favor Quicken if you expect you'll have to deal with the likes of Obzedat or other resistant threats. From your description this doesn't seem to be the case.
If you cut 1 or 2 Quicken, I do think 4th divination is worthwhile if there is a lot of monoblack. I personally run 3 but I won't deny the card advantage helps vs hard disruption.
If I expect an aggro meta, I personally wouldn't up my scryland count or divs to 4; I find enough of the UW lands enter tapped that I don't want more of it. Tapping out to divination can sometimes put you in trouble too, so if this happens to be the case I'd try for another removal spell or something else sleeker. Like you say, Azorius Charm has the extra modes, probably a good swap. Besides, Charm + Counterspell beats Obzedat just as Quicken + Supreme Verdict would. The only other perk Quicken has is killing mutavaults, but with main Last Breath that doesn't seem like an issue for you.
I think you should have a Ratchet Bomb or two somewhere. It's more removal against R/G, where your charms and last breaths are probably blanking often. You didn't list this among the most popular decks in your meta, but if it shows I think it could cause you trouble, and it wouldn't hurt to be a little prepared. I don't think the card is ever a dud, anyway.
Celestial Flares will definitely help, but I think bomb is harder to play around. Pithing Needles for PWs can be answered, but if you just kill the threat RG doesn't really have a way to bring it back. Bomb can also hit mistcutters on 1. Also just kinda good against tokens (including pack rat), not really bad against aggro either. I think you could consider 1 mainboard instead of 4th charm since it can answer about anything, but it's not necessarily correct so you should make your own judgment.
I'm not a fan of Blind Obedience; would drop to 1 or 0. I feel like it's just a lifegain card against haste; which isn't bad but I think you can do better. I'm a huge advocate of Trading Post, which gives generous chunks of lifegain vs red, feeds goats to desecration demon, buybacks Elixir or Bomb (if you include it) if they hit graveyard from counterspell or discard or whatever. Stalls a non-monstrous Stormbreath as long as you have cards in hand, and can chump mistcutter or other non-evasive threats for quite a while. I think you should test 1 for sideboard.
Quicken is a neat card, but I've found I don't care for it. It would seem that with Jace, Divination and Sphinx that you have enough draw power to get relevant cards so long as you survive to cast them. You can also cantrip with charm, more and more cantrips are not what I'd suggest when you might simply want more cards that interact. I would only particularly favor Quicken if you expect you'll have to deal with the likes of Obzedat or other resistant threats. From your description this doesn't seem to be the case.
If you cut 1 or 2 Quicken, I do think 4th divination is worthwhile if there is a lot of monoblack. I personally run 3 but I won't deny the card advantage helps vs hard disruption.
If I expect an aggro meta, I personally wouldn't up my scryland count or divs to 4; I find enough of the UW lands enter tapped that I don't want more of it. Tapping out to divination can sometimes put you in trouble too, so if this happens to be the case I'd try for another removal spell or something else sleeker. Like you say, Azorius Charm has the extra modes, probably a good swap. Besides, Charm + Counterspell beats Obzedat just as Quicken + Supreme Verdict would. The only other perk Quicken has is killing mutavaults, but with main Last Breath that doesn't seem like an issue for you.
I think you should have a Ratchet Bomb or two somewhere. It's more removal against R/G, where your charms and last breaths are probably blanking often. You didn't list this among the most popular decks in your meta, but if it shows I think it could cause you trouble, and it wouldn't hurt to be a little prepared. I don't think the card is ever a dud, anyway.
Celestial Flares will definitely help, but I think bomb is harder to play around. Pithing Needles for PWs can be answered, but if you just kill the threat RG doesn't really have a way to bring it back. Bomb can also hit mistcutters on 1. Also just kinda good against tokens (including pack rat), not really bad against aggro either. I think you could consider 1 mainboard instead of 4th charm since it can answer about anything, but it's not necessarily correct so you should make your own judgment.
I'm not a fan of Blind Obedience; would drop to 1 or 0. I feel like it's just a lifegain card against haste; which isn't bad but I think you can do better. I'm a huge advocate of Trading Post, which gives generous chunks of lifegain vs red, feeds goats to desecration demon, buybacks Elixir or Bomb (if you include it) if they hit graveyard from counterspell or discard or whatever. Stalls a non-monstrous Stormbreath as long as you have cards in hand, and can chump mistcutter or other non-evasive threats for quite a while. I think you should test 1 for sideboard.
Quicken is a neat card, but I've found I don't care for it. It would seem that with Jace, Divination and Sphinx that you have enough draw power to get relevant cards so long as you survive to cast them. You can also cantrip with charm, more and more cantrips are not what I'd suggest when you might simply want more cards that interact. I would only particularly favor Quicken if you expect you'll have to deal with the likes of Obzedat or other resistant threats. From your description this doesn't seem to be the case.
If you cut 1 or 2 Quicken, I do think 4th divination is worthwhile if there is a lot of monoblack. I personally run 3 but I won't deny the card advantage helps vs hard disruption.
If I expect an aggro meta, I personally wouldn't up my scryland count or divs to 4; I find enough of the UW lands enter tapped that I don't want more of it. Tapping out to divination can sometimes put you in trouble too, so if this happens to be the case I'd try for another removal spell or something else sleeker. Like you say, Azorius Charm has the extra modes, probably a good swap. Besides, Charm + Counterspell beats Obzedat just as Quicken + Supreme Verdict would. The only other perk Quicken has is killing mutavaults, but with main Last Breath that doesn't seem like an issue for you.
I think you should have a Ratchet Bomb or two somewhere. It's more removal against R/G, where your charms and last breaths are probably blanking often. You didn't list this among the most popular decks in your meta, but if it shows I think it could cause you trouble, and it wouldn't hurt to be a little prepared. I don't think the card is ever a dud, anyway.
Celestial Flares will definitely help, but I think bomb is harder to play around. Pithing Needles for PWs can be answered, but if you just kill the threat RG doesn't really have a way to bring it back. Bomb can also hit mistcutters on 1. Also just kinda good against tokens (including pack rat), not really bad against aggro either. I think you could consider 1 mainboard instead of 4th charm since it can answer about anything, but it's not necessarily correct so you should make your own judgment.
I'm not a fan of Blind Obedience; would drop to 1 or 0. I feel like it's just a lifegain card against haste; which isn't bad but I think you can do better. I'm a huge advocate of Trading Post, which gives generous chunks of lifegain vs red, feeds goats to desecration demon, buybacks Elixir or Bomb (if you include it) if they hit graveyard from counterspell or discard or whatever. Stalls a non-monstrous Stormbreath as long as you have cards in hand, and can chump mistcutter or other non-evasive threats for quite a while. I think you should test 1 for sideboard.
I can agree with you 100% about Quicken I have felt it useless or unwanted at most times, I feel like if we cut it I would add +1 Azorius Charm and something else.... I wouldn't go up to four main deck divinations.... And i feel wrong going up to 4 last breaths main as well. Maybe something usefull in the control matchup like a 1 of Render Silent? I'm actually not a fan of main decking ratchet bombeither, I've been playing this deck for some time and when testing with ratchet it's been to bad for me.
I'm actually loving the idea of a seventh counter spell right now, I thought at first with just cancel, but it tends to be a little bit bad for just 3 mana. i like render silent even if it does stress out the mana base just a bit more. it would be great in devotion matchups where they try to cast multiple cards a turn off nykthos and just great in the control mirror.
Do you think 2 scrys are to much guys or should i be on the no scy option?
I play with Render Silent. I often prefer it against aggressive decks who try to maximize each turn; not terrible against black, either, since they like to lead with Thoughtseize and follow up with a strong spell, and Render ends up being a nice tempo play. Against control, though, I find it's not that special unless your opponent is desperately trying to resolve multiple detention spheres or something. Another cancel isn't bad but you're rarely trying to do more than one thing a turn, anyway, is my point.
I don't know about seven counterspells; maybe it could work by I have reservations in a field with many aggressive decks.
I play with Render Silent. I often prefer it against aggressive decks who try to maximize each turn; not terrible against black, either, since they like to lead with Thoughtseize and follow up with a strong spell, and Render ends up being a nice tempo play. Against control, though, I find it's not that special unless your opponent is desperately trying to resolve multiple detention spheres or something. Another cancel isn't bad but you're rarely trying to do more than one thing a turn, anyway, is my point.
I don't know about seven counterspells; maybe it could work by I have reservations in a field with many aggressive decks.
I play three Temple of Triumph myself. The scry is fine, though not game-breaking. I also run Wear//Tear in the board so sometimes I can two for one off of it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
I play three Temple of Triumph myself. The scry is fine, though not game-breaking. I also run Wear//Tear in the board so sometimes I can two for one off of it.
I love the Temple of Triumph and Wear/Tear combo. It seems like a no brainer swap for the people who just play Temple of Silences for the white.
I've been putting up decent results since theros came out, yet to go worse that 2-2. I love running 3 wincons (elixir does not count. me and esper went to time in game 1 due to both running elixir). I hate divination as a card. tapping out to draw two os the last thing i want to be doing on turn 3.
the main reason i am posting is that i was wondering if it would be better to cut an A. charm for a quicken? (corner base instant verdict) and also if i should bump up to 4 jace. I never really don't want to cast jace, but i'm not sure what i'd cut.
I've been putting up decent results since theros came out, yet to go worse that 2-2. I love running 3 wincons (elixir does not count. me and esper went to time in game 1 due to both running elixir). I hate divination as a card. tapping out to draw two os the last thing i want to be doing on turn 3.
the main reason i am posting is that i was wondering if it would be better to cut an A. charm for a quicken? (corner base instant verdict) and also if i should bump up to 4 jace. I never really don't want to cast jace, but i'm not sure what i'd cut.
Divination is good because it's pure card advantage, something the deck really wants, especially against Mono-B. I disagree with cutting an A-charm for Quicken; Charms are so versatile that A-charm's upside far outweighs the upside on Quicken.
Maybe cut the AEtherling for a fourth Jace? It's really clunky, and drawing two win conditions really sucks. Also, Celestial Flare is really inconsistent. I'd suggest cutting them for Divinations.
I would like to ask for some guidance in my own list for UW Control since some of you may be playing this archetype for quite sometime than I am. I mainly play White Based or Boros Aggro so my brain's preset is still aggro thus I'm having as hard time evaluating cards that should be in a UW control deck. I have played control before which are RB Wildfire and MBC decks but that is a decade ago so I'm a bit rusty on this.
I have two Quicken and another Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the main prior to this list but during the FNM yesterday there was an instance where I have both Elspeth or Aetherling and Elspeth in hand prior to hitting my 6th land thus they just rot in my hand. Quicken is was ok for card a cantrip but there was only two instance that I was able to chain a Supreme Verdict with it. Majority of the time it is just a card draw.
My local meta includes GR Devotion, Mono Black Devotion, Orchov Midrange, RBW Control and a whole bunch of White Based aggro decks. What do you guys think about my list?
I would like to ask for some guidance in my own list for UW Control since some of you may be playing this archetype for quite sometime than I am. I mainly play White Based or Boros Aggro so my brain's preset is still aggro thus I'm having as hard time evaluating cards that should be in a UW control deck. I have played control before which are RB Wildfire and MBC decks but that is a decade ago so I'm a bit rusty on this.
I have two Quicken and another Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the main prior to this list but during the FNM yesterday there was an instance where I have both Elspeth or Aetherling and Elspeth in hand prior to hitting my 6th land thus they just rot in my hand. Quicken is was ok for card a cantrip but there was only two instance that I was able to chain a Supreme Verdict with it. Majority of the time it is just a card draw.
My local meta includes GR Devotion, Mono Black Devotion, Orchov Midrange, RBW Control and a whole bunch of White Based aggro decks. What do you guys think about my list?
I have a 1 k today and your main deck is the exact same 60 I'm going with today, I have a different sideboard, so I'll let you know how I do.
I played the Saito build last night at FNM with no Azorius Charm. I really hated the deck. It's incredibly hard to play things on curve when 10 of your lands are guaranteed CIPT lands, and found it super clunky with 3 Elspeth, 1 Aetherling.
EDIT:
Just as I say this basically three exact copies of the deck placed in the Top 16 of SCGBaltimore.
Well guys, after all my prep into the list, I showed up late to the event due to traffic and closed toll roads because of accidents. When I showed up to the event there were only 19 people. I didn't get the chance to play in a 19 player 1 k, kinda saddend
Well guys, after all my prep into the list, I showed up late to the event due to traffic and closed toll roads because of accidents. When I showed up to the event there were only 19 people. I didn't get the chance to play in a 19 player 1 k, kinda saddend
Holy crap, dude. Talk about daggers. That's a super soft event. Shame it didn't work out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
I was at GP Vancouver today. Went 5-4, got stomped. At least my final match vs. Boros Burn I was able win by activating Jace's ultimate and casting my opponent's Purphoros and my Elspeth for shockingly good +1 activations.
Like that Saito list, I think the successful UWx control lists at the GP are using transformational sideboards w/ Archangel of Thune and Fiendslayer Paladin. Opponents board out their spot removal thinking it's a "classic control" matchup and then get beat down.
I've been running Huey's list since GP Dallas but have been recently experimenting with starting to up the number of threats the decks run, and lo and behold the new saito list pops up doing the same thing.
It seems this is the direction we need to take in response to the new meta after everyone adjusted to the 1 elspeth/1 elixer package. People are diversifying their threats to overtax our Detention Spheres and punch through damage, so we need to actually start playing things like more Elspeths and Archangels to stabilize our board rather than leaning on just verdict and sphere until revelations.
I'm now running Saito's list but I'm still on 26 land, not quite as many taplands, and have 2 archangels main instead of the aetherling, who's now in the side. I'm open to anyone convincing me aetherling belongs in the mainboard but against many decks he's a completely dead draw until turn 10+ and he does nothing to stabilize our board.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
:symu::symw:Azorius Control:symu::symw:
Devotion to durdling
so, our favorite william jensen is playing uw at vancouver right now and i haven't been home all day. does anyone have a list or deck tech handy yet?
No decklist yet but it looks like he is playing a list similar to the SCG lists. A write-up about one of his matches mentions him siding in Archangel of Thune.
Quicken is a neat card, but I've found I don't care for it. It would seem that with Jace, Divination and Sphinx that you have enough draw power to get relevant cards so long as you survive to cast them. You can also cantrip with charm, more and more cantrips are not what I'd suggest when you might simply want more cards that interact. I would only particularly favor Quicken if you expect you'll have to deal with the likes of Obzedat or other resistant threats. From your description this doesn't seem to be the case.
If you cut 1 or 2 Quicken, I do think 4th divination is worthwhile if there is a lot of monoblack. I personally run 3 but I won't deny the card advantage helps vs hard disruption.
If I expect an aggro meta, I personally wouldn't up my scryland count or divs to 4; I find enough of the UW lands enter tapped that I don't want more of it. Tapping out to divination can sometimes put you in trouble too, so if this happens to be the case I'd try for another removal spell or something else sleeker. Like you say, Azorius Charm has the extra modes, probably a good swap. Besides, Charm + Counterspell beats Obzedat just as Quicken + Supreme Verdict would. The only other perk Quicken has is killing mutavaults, but with main Last Breath that doesn't seem like an issue for you.
I think you should have a Ratchet Bomb or two somewhere. It's more removal against R/G, where your charms and last breaths are probably blanking often. You didn't list this among the most popular decks in your meta, but if it shows I think it could cause you trouble, and it wouldn't hurt to be a little prepared. I don't think the card is ever a dud, anyway.
Celestial Flares will definitely help, but I think bomb is harder to play around. Pithing Needles for PWs can be answered, but if you just kill the threat RG doesn't really have a way to bring it back. Bomb can also hit mistcutters on 1. Also just kinda good against tokens (including pack rat), not really bad against aggro either. I think you could consider 1 mainboard instead of 4th charm since it can answer about anything, but it's not necessarily correct so you should make your own judgment.
I'm not a fan of Blind Obedience; would drop to 1 or 0. I feel like it's just a lifegain card against haste; which isn't bad but I think you can do better. I'm a huge advocate of Trading Post, which gives generous chunks of lifegain vs red, feeds goats to desecration demon, buybacks Elixir or Bomb (if you include it) if they hit graveyard from counterspell or discard or whatever. Stalls a non-monstrous Stormbreath as long as you have cards in hand, and can chump mistcutter or other non-evasive threats for quite a while. I think you should test 1 for sideboard.
Trading Post is way too slow.
I can agree with you 100% about Quicken I have felt it useless or unwanted at most times, I feel like if we cut it I would add +1 Azorius Charm and something else.... I wouldn't go up to four main deck divinations.... And i feel wrong going up to 4 last breaths main as well. Maybe something usefull in the control matchup like a 1 of Render Silent? I'm actually not a fan of main decking ratchet bombeither, I've been playing this deck for some time and when testing with ratchet it's been to bad for me.
I'm actually loving the idea of a seventh counter spell right now, I thought at first with just cancel, but it tends to be a little bit bad for just 3 mana. i like render silent even if it does stress out the mana base just a bit more. it would be great in devotion matchups where they try to cast multiple cards a turn off nykthos and just great in the control mirror.
Do you think 2 scrys are to much guys or should i be on the no scy option?
I don't know about seven counterspells; maybe it could work by I have reservations in a field with many aggressive decks.
would you just recommend the fourth last breath?
yes i would rather have a fourth last breath but that's just personal preference because I play against a lot of mutavaults here.
On the thing about scry lands.. wait another month and you can swap those lame azorius gates out for the new shiny scry lands so there's a good news
Okay, I'll go up to 4 in the main. Yeah I know we get it in a few weeks, but i've got 3 1ks up till then lol so im not sure about them now
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
I love the Temple of Triumph and Wear/Tear combo. It seems like a no brainer swap for the people who just play Temple of Silences for the white.
Yeah, it seems like easy value to jam into your 75. Destroying a Whip and Connections for 3 mana is such a good feel.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
1 Aetherling
Artifacts:
1 Elixir of immortality
Enchantments:
4 Detention Sphere
Spells:
4 Azorious Charm
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Dissolve
3 Last Breath
2 Celestial Flare
2 Syncopate
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Land:
4 Azorious Guildgate
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Mutavault
8 Island
8 Plains
1 Aetherling
1 Divination
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Essence Scatter
2 Blind Obedience
2 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Negate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Last Breath
I've been putting up decent results since theros came out, yet to go worse that 2-2. I love running 3 wincons (elixir does not count. me and esper went to time in game 1 due to both running elixir). I hate divination as a card. tapping out to draw two os the last thing i want to be doing on turn 3.
the main reason i am posting is that i was wondering if it would be better to cut an A. charm for a quicken? (corner base instant verdict) and also if i should bump up to 4 jace. I never really don't want to cast jace, but i'm not sure what i'd cut.
Divination is good because it's pure card advantage, something the deck really wants, especially against Mono-B. I disagree with cutting an A-charm for Quicken; Charms are so versatile that A-charm's upside far outweighs the upside on Quicken.
Maybe cut the AEtherling for a fourth Jace? It's really clunky, and drawing two win conditions really sucks. Also, Celestial Flare is really inconsistent. I'd suggest cutting them for Divinations.
Here's my UW Control List
1x Aetherling
Planeswalker
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3x Jace, Architect of Thought
Spells
4x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Divination
4x Supreme Verdict
4x Detention Sphere
4x Azorius Charm
4x Dissolve
2x Syncopate
3x Last Breath
1x Elixir of Immortality
Lands
2x Mutavault
4x Azorious Guildgate
4x Hallowed Fountain
7x Plains
9x Islands
3x Fiendslayer Paladin
2x Negate
3x Gainsay
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Pithing Needle
2x Celestial Flare
1x Last Breath
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
I have two Quicken and another Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the main prior to this list but during the FNM yesterday there was an instance where I have both Elspeth or Aetherling and Elspeth in hand prior to hitting my 6th land thus they just rot in my hand. Quicken is was ok for card a cantrip but there was only two instance that I was able to chain a Supreme Verdict with it. Majority of the time it is just a card draw.
My local meta includes GR Devotion, Mono Black Devotion, Orchov Midrange, RBW Control and a whole bunch of White Based aggro decks. What do you guys think about my list?
I have a 1 k today and your main deck is the exact same 60 I'm going with today, I have a different sideboard, so I'll let you know how I do.
EDIT:
Just as I say this basically three exact copies of the deck placed in the Top 16 of SCGBaltimore.
Holy crap, dude. Talk about daggers. That's a super soft event. Shame it didn't work out.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Like that Saito list, I think the successful UWx control lists at the GP are using transformational sideboards w/ Archangel of Thune and Fiendslayer Paladin. Opponents board out their spot removal thinking it's a "classic control" matchup and then get beat down.
It seems this is the direction we need to take in response to the new meta after everyone adjusted to the 1 elspeth/1 elixer package. People are diversifying their threats to overtax our Detention Spheres and punch through damage, so we need to actually start playing things like more Elspeths and Archangels to stabilize our board rather than leaning on just verdict and sphere until revelations.
I'm now running Saito's list but I'm still on 26 land, not quite as many taplands, and have 2 archangels main instead of the aetherling, who's now in the side. I'm open to anyone convincing me aetherling belongs in the mainboard but against many decks he's a completely dead draw until turn 10+ and he does nothing to stabilize our board.
Devotion to durdling
No decklist yet but it looks like he is playing a list similar to the SCG lists. A write-up about one of his matches mentions him siding in Archangel of Thune.
End of video stream comment Alexander Hayne made:
- Would prefer 27 lands (an extra scry land) and possibly cut an Azorius Charm for it.
lol, the funny thing is esper is in there but i've seen more u/w than espers in top 8s recently