I'm of the opinion that Keranos is borderline unplayable if UWx remains a thing, not to mention the rising interest in Wx decks in general.
It's hard to argue a card as being bad because of a single other card, and a narrow one at that but recognize this: Deicide WILL see play in nearly every single Wx variant and for just 2 mana your opponent will not only exile your God/s but also look at the contents of your hand as well as your ENTIRE deck. Fringe situation? Maybe, but that is just such a huge blowout that I would be very skeptical of this cards MB inclusion in an new meta, and that's without taking into account that it does absolutely nothing the turn it comes down.
There is very little indication that either UWx or Mono B will be going anywhere soon and Assemble the Legion just beats Keranos as an actual win con against Mono B and even Stormbreath seems a stronger option against the Wx based lists sure to see play.
Now I could be wrong and in fact hope that Keranos turns out to be secretly incredible but I'm just not seeing it atm.
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Deicide is absolutely not of any concern whatsoever. I think people keep forgetting that Slaughter Games exists, because that card is significantly more dangerous to our archetype than Deicide is.
Does Keranos do anything the turn he comes out? No, but look at it like this: Unlike Elspeth, he doesn't die to Hero's Downfall, annnnd he comes out two turns earlier than Aetherling. Additionally, he requires absolutely no investment of mana once you've cast him.
I do agree with you that I also find Keranos is very sketchy at the moment, and because of the strength of white we're bound to see Mono Black probably replace its U/B lands with W/B lands and run Mono Black and splash white for a lot of good spells. Cards such as Deicide and Blinding Light seem to be worth the splash more so than just running the U/B temples for the scry effect and give Mono Black the tools they didn't have before for dealing with particular harsh cards for them such as Assemble the Legion. However, I believe he turns into a slightly harder to deal with Elspeth. In a lot of match ups he's probably worth siding out against white for the much more powerful 5 drop Stormbreath Dragon in any form of matchup against a white deck.
@Caedere
I think the main argument for Deicide though is that it's so easy to splash and deals with things that have already hit the board. Slaughter games, while I agree is absolutely horrifying for control decks running limited win cons it requires splashing two colors that no one seems to want to run together. B/R control is already a horrifying match up for us, they don't really need Slaughter Games to make it any worse and doesn't do very well in other match ups. Jund probably prefers just to run hand hate over Slaughter Games as well as it deals with actual threats in your hand cheaply as opposed to tapping out turn 4 to rip Revs out of our hand.
On another note, if you want to play Keranos and represent a counterspell to smite Deicide or any form of spell that deals with Keranos you need at the least 6 mana with Swan Song, a card that only a few people (like me) run main board. The only other reasonable counterspell that could deal with a threat after you've played Keranos is Dissolve, which would mean you would have 8 mana up. At that point I would prefer just to slam down an Aetherling and put them on a much faster clock than Keranos does.
What this deck is doing is taking advantage of the fact that dropping Keranos means that you'll never have a dead draw again. I've been noticing that he has a subtle, yet very influential effect on the rest of the deck: Keranos makes Elixir much better (since recycling spells -> more damage), which means that the deck can run Izzet Charm for digging, which means that you can run more mainboard sweepers (since you can always pitch them to Charm in control matchups), which means that your game against aggro is a lot stronger.
Also, I feel that Dispel is going to be increasingly relevant in the coming months, so I stuck 4 in my sideboard.
I really feel like you should put in an alternate win con other than Keranos, God of Storms. I would suggest dropping a single Elixir of Immortality for either an Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Aetherling, and if you decide to put Elspeth in you should put a singleton Aetherling in the sideboard. If you really feel like you want to run an exclusive Keranos only deck you have to have 2 mutavaults to speed up your clock. You also need to find something to take out of your deck for 4 Detention Sphere or 4 Blinding Light since you probably want the ability to hit any Detention Spheres on your Keranos. A card with the ability for it to answer anything really is the cornerstone of this cycles Control core. Since you want to maintain the burn sort of aspect of your deck it would probably be best to drop Azorius charm and Izzet charm to 2 a piece and keep the Warleader's Helix.
I would also consider changing a single cyclonic rift to a disperse. It changes Detention Sphere into a 5 mana exile anything permanently and also can be used to save Keranos if you're unable to counter a Deicide
And lastly, I think you should plan for the worst. Counterflux is undoubtedly a better counterspell than Dissolve however you need to respect the fact that sometimes our decks hate us and don't want to give us perfect mana on turn 3 or 4. The scry is also useful after you have a Keranos on the field as it allows you to set up an additional draw or burn.
I feel like this deck respects no other decks than control and aggro decks at the moment. Jund and G/R monsters still is a thing and we have yet to see whether any more midrange decks will become prominent.
You're totally right on those suggestions. Honestly, in such an unformed meta I'd probably go for something a bit more midrange-y myself, at least until archetypes have been a bit more established.
I like the second deck more as it is closer to my style but the control shell might be the better version until I can sort out exactly where I need to be in the midrange version.
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I think that strictly relying on keranos as a win-con with deicide in the format is ultimately a losing proposition. I do believe that he is a powerful tool though.
something along those lines. I think the biggest advantage UWR has over the other colors is it's ability to deal with early aggro. Izzet charm is also a very good reason to run this combination, since it's a very versatile spell for a control deck. I'm not that sure on turn/burn's effectiveness, but it gives the deck a solid answer to obzedat G1 as well as giving you the option to kill mutavaults, burn jace's, or otherwise eliminate other small creatures.
I'd like to play more mizzium mortars, but the fact that it's sorcery speed makes it a little iffy. I also like warleader's helix a lot, but 4 mana is kind of expensive. Still, the ability to burn out plainswalkers and gain life while removing a threat is pretty good.
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I think that strictly relying on keranos as a win-con with deicide in the format is ultimately a losing proposition. I do believe that he is a powerful tool though.
I think the biggest advantage UWR has over the other colors is it's ability to deal with early aggro. Izzet charm is also a very good reason to run this combination, since it's a very versatile spell for a control deck. I'm not that sure on turn/burn's effectiveness, but it gives the deck a solid answer to obzedat G1 as well as giving you the option to kill mutavaults, burn jace's, or otherwise eliminate other small creatures.
I'd like to play more mizzium mortars, but the fact that it's sorcery speed makes it a little iffy. I also like warleader's helix a lot, but 4 mana is kind of expensive. Still, the ability to burn out plainswalkers and gain life while removing a threat is pretty good.
I do not like font of vigor. I would rather run those as elixirs since the total mana investment is smaller (for smaller lifegain of course) and it is theoretically repeatable. Elixir also provides the ability to "go infinite" and recycle your answers.
Manabase discussion: now that we have access to all of our on color temples, what type of manabase are people planning on running? At the moment I'm running all of the on color shocks and temples available in BNG standard with 6 islands and a plains filling out for 27. After JOU I'm considering swapping shocks for temples depending on how much aggro surfaces after release because generally I rarely ever have to shock myself. Furthermore, is trying to include two mutavaults too greedy in this deck?
After a bit of play testing I've decided to go with this list for an IQ on May 4th. Any critiques would be appreciated. I'm expecting to see new iterations of the current decks in the meta plus a few others. Most noticeably being Atheros Aristocrats, Mono Black Discard (With Brain Maggot I expect it), Mono Black / Rakdos Aggro, and lastly Dredge and built my deck respecting all of these decks. My main theory behind putting to much aggro hate main is that I can always use the cards to filter with Izzet charm against slower matchups.
One thing I have yet to test out is Frostburn Weird. My current thought is that it's a body to put in against aggro they can't easily remove and can easily kill a lot of their one toughness creatures. The fact that it doesn't die to Anger of the Gods is just gravy. It also has the potential to turn Keranos online.
Not exactly sure on the sideboard yet, most likely things such as Anger of The Gods, Deicide, Banishing Light, Stormbreath Dragon, stuff such as that. Any tips would be extremely helpful.
Not exactly sure on the sideboard yet, most likely things such as Anger of The Gods, Deicide, Banishing Light, Stormbreath Dragon, stuff such as that. Any tips would be extremely helpful.
I'm an Esper player considering a change, so I can't really speak from U/W/r experience, but I do have a few thoughts for you.
First, what if you run all 12 Scry lands, and drop to 9 Shock? That's what I do in Esper, and it's been fantastic. The current meta is slow enough that I think you can pull this off, and it will probably give you at least one more scry each game.
Continuing on the mana base, 24 is simply not enough land if you're running Sphinx's. You need to run 26 or you'll be casting way too many Rev's for 2. I'd add an Island and a Plains.
On the 2-mana creature: Frostburn seems like the most versatile, and the easiest to cast. Your (two) basic Plains are the only lands that don't support it. On the other hand, you have 9-10 lands that might get in the way of casting the Ram, which I'd agree is the #2 option. Omenspeaker and Scryfish are both so-so alternatives, but again, the current meta is slower, and thus you'll see bigger creatures, so a toughness of 3 is less appealing.
Given the sorcery-speed power of Verdict and Detention Sphere, why not run Magma Jet or Lightning Strike instead of Mortars, for more options at instant speed?
Reprisal might be a very strong option out of the sideboard. Deicide may be strong enough to make the main deck list.
Not exactly sure on the sideboard yet, most likely things such as Anger of The Gods, Deicide, Banishing Light, Stormbreath Dragon, stuff such as that. Any tips would be extremely helpful.
I'm an Esper player considering a change, so I can't really speak from U/W/r experience, but I do have a few thoughts for you.
First, what if you run all 12 Scry lands, and drop to 9 Shock? That's what I do in Esper, and it's been fantastic. The current meta is slow enough that I think you can pull this off, and it will probably give you at least one more scry each game.
Continuing on the mana base, 24 is simply not enough land if you're running Sphinx's. You need to run 26 or you'll be casting way too many Rev's for 2. I'd add an Island and a Plains.
On the 2-mana creature: Frostburn seems like the most versatile, and the easiest to cast. Your (two) basic Plains are the only lands that don't support it. On the other hand, you have 9-10 lands that might get in the way of casting the Ram, which I'd agree is the #2 option. Omenspeaker and Scryfish are both so-so alternatives, but again, the current meta is slower, and thus you'll see bigger creatures, so a toughness of 3 is less appealing.
Given the sorcery-speed power of Verdict and Detention Sphere, why not run Magma Jet or Lightning Strike instead of Mortars, for more options at instant speed?
Reprisal might be a very strong option out of the sideboard. Deicide may be strong enough to make the main deck list.
What is your opinion in 27 vs 26 lands? I'm still on 27, but looking at the hypergeometric distribution, the difference in hitting land drops doesn't go beyond 5% until turn 6 whether you are on the play or on the draw. I am going to cautiously move my temple count up by starting it at an even split between shocks and temples so I would have 10 temples, 10 shocks, and 7 basics.
One thing about Mizzium Mortars is that it has more reach than Magma Jet and Lightning Strike and the option to overload is always nice. It is also the only spell besides verdict in his entire deck that can hit creatures with protection from blue or protection from white (e.g. Stormbreath Dragon, Mistcutter Hydra, Blood Baron of Vizkopa). Most of the creatures I gave as examples have haste making instant speed removal more ideal, but neither Magma Jet nor Lightning strike is likely to kill any of them unless it's a really early Mistcutter. I would probably run Turn // Burn over Magma Jet since it is an instant speed answer that kills any targetable creature that has fewer than two +1/+1 counters on it, even if it is a little clunky at 5 mana fused. You could make the argument for the addition of Reprisal as it covers many of the issues with red removal (if we assume generally symmetric power/toughness, if it's under 4 mortars can deal with it). I've been considering celestial flare as well since it can get around protection, indestructibility, hexproof, etc.
For the quoted list I would consider some number of counterflux in the 75 as it is the strongest card red brings in the control mirror. I like Assemble the Legion against MBD, but if you don't run it that's up to you.
After some further thinking as well as consideration of a few inputs, I've put together a slightly different mainboard, and included a sideboard also, as well as with my reasoning for each card.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius - Last season I ran this as a 1 of mainboard and it did wonders. Now its even better as it can turn on a Keranos, God of Storms almost on its own. It then requires instant attention as we can sit back and ride the Izzet Dragon to victory. Would side in against G/R to block their pesky Stormbreath Dragon and possibly against Control once they side out all of their Verdicts and specific creature removal.
Deicide - Make mono blue cry even more, but I also see it as a quick and reliable way to get rid of opposing Detention Sphere's and annoying cards such as Whip of Erebos, doesn't only have to be used against the Gods.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius - Last season I ran this as a 1 of mainboard and it did wonders. Now its even better as it can turn on a Keranos, God of Storms almost on its own. It then requires instant attention as we can sit back and ride the Izzet Dragon to victory. Would side in against G/R to block their pesky Stormbreath Dragon and possibly against Control once they side out all of their Verdicts and specific creature removal.
I'm not sure Niv-Mizzet turns Keranos on the way you think it does. Maybe I'm wrong, but Kerano's wording says "Reveal the first card you draw on each of YOUR turns" (emphasis mine). That seems to be very specific, and would disallow any shenanigans happening on your opponent's turn with instant-speed Niv-Mizzet damage. Am I missing something? I probably am.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius - Last season I ran this as a 1 of mainboard and it did wonders. Now its even better as it can turn on a Keranos, God of Storms almost on its own. It then requires instant attention as we can sit back and ride the Izzet Dragon to victory. Would side in against G/R to block their pesky Stormbreath Dragon and possibly against Control once they side out all of their Verdicts and specific creature removal.
I'm not sure Niv-Mizzet turns Keranos on the way you think it does. Maybe I'm wrong, but Kerano's wording says "Reveal the first card you draw on each of YOUR turns" (emphasis mine). That seems to be very specific, and would disallow any shenanigans happening on your opponent's turn with instant-speed Niv-Mizzet damage. Am I missing something? I probably am.
he meant turn on as in niv-mizzet provides almost enough devotion for keranos to be a creature
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I'm not going to call him dad..NOT EVER!! EVEN IF THERE'S A FIRE!!!
ive seen some interesting versions of this deck in this forum. ive been working on one, getting it built, for a couple months now and on friday, the last of my cards will be ariving at my house. i am wondering what you guys think of the decklist i have put together. i just finished the sideboard today, and i think its going to be a pretty good one. im just trying to decide on having either 3 deicide or 3 anger of the gods its a tough choice...but i think i might stick with the deicide, unless any of you have any counter offers. well here we go.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius - Last season I ran this as a 1 of mainboard and it did wonders. Now its even better as it can turn on a Keranos, God of Storms almost on its own. It then requires instant attention as we can sit back and ride the Izzet Dragon to victory. Would side in against G/R to block their pesky Stormbreath Dragon and possibly against Control once they side out all of their Verdicts and specific creature removal.
I'm not sure Niv-Mizzet turns Keranos on the way you think it does. Maybe I'm wrong, but Kerano's wording says "Reveal the first card you draw on each of YOUR turns" (emphasis mine). That seems to be very specific, and would disallow any shenanigans happening on your opponent's turn with instant-speed Niv-Mizzet damage. Am I missing something? I probably am.
he meant turn on as in niv-mizzet provides almost enough devotion for keranos to be a creature
I'm not sure if I'm the only one or not, but I feel not playing 4 Sphinx's Revelation in a control deck is the wrong choice.
I've seen a lot of decks running only 3 granted there are more running 4, but I think 3 is fine Haha.
While it is not necessarily desirable to have rev in your opening hand (and especially multiple), because thoughtseize and duress are a part of the format, the additional redundancy helps.
I'm not sure if I'm the only one or not, but I feel not playing 4 Sphinx's Revelation in a control deck is the wrong choice.
I've seen a lot of decks running only 3 granted there are more running 4, but I think 3 is fine Haha.
While it is not necessarily desirable to have rev in your opening hand (and especially multiple), because thoughtseize and duress are a part of the format, the additional redundancy helps.
The likely hood oh a discarded rev is diminished IMO greatly with 3 revs instead of 4, but its still a problem for everything except smiter with thought seize in the format Haha. There are drawbacks for having 4 and 3 alike. Its just a personal preference. Its the players decision on which is a better advantage.
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I'm not going to call him dad..NOT EVER!! EVEN IF THERE'S A FIRE!!!
I'm not sure if I'm the only one or not, but I feel not playing 4 Sphinx's Revelation in a control deck is the wrong choice.
I've seen a lot of decks running only 3 granted there are more running 4, but I think 3 is fine Haha.
While it is not necessarily desirable to have rev in your opening hand (and especially multiple), because thoughtseize and duress are a part of the format, the additional redundancy helps.
The likely hood oh a discarded rev is diminished IMO greatly with 3 revs instead of 4, but its still a problem for everything except smiter with thought seize in the format Haha. There are drawbacks for having 4 and 3 alike. Its just a personal preference. Its the players decision on which is a better advantage.
The issue isn't the probability of it being discarded. The issue is how likely you are to draw a replacement when it does get discarded. I would say 3 is the bare minimum, and in a format without thoughtseize or duress is probably what I would run.
Hello everyone! I put together my UWR Control deck yesterday after work to test with my good buddy and I must say, it went fairly well with my initial take on the deck! I tested against WB Humans with the new God, I tested against mono red with the new additions, I tested against a mono black build, I tested against hexproof, and I also tested against JUNK Midrange/Reanimator!
My current it iteration of the deck looks like this...
After a lot of games, I was able to use each card and the deck and get the feel if they were worthy of a spot or not in my list. The spell base felt VERY good so far. I love having versitile spells that can be flexible against ANY matchup. The only truly possible dead card is Anger of the Gods against control, but even then it can have a use against Elspeth tokens. Keranos, God of Storms was surprisingly an AWESOME card against all the matchups that I tested against so far. He made cards like Izzet Charm and Turn//Burn be able to burn out creatures with 5 power instead of 2, he allowed me to knock down opposing planeswalkers or keep their loyalty low enough, I scryed a Supreme Verdict at the top of my library then revealed the verdict from Keranos, killed a Necromancer, then wrathed the board that turn leaving nothing behind. Although he felt REAL sweet to the deck, I also felt that it may have just been better to be either another cheaper removal spell such as Last Breath or possibly even the third Elspeth. I am doing more testing tonight to gain more knowledge of what to add or take away. I am still working on a sideboard, but I have a general idea of what I want, I just have to sculpt it out. I will post again tomorrow probably! I look forward to hearing y'alls input on my version and I also look forward to seeing what everyone else has brewed up!
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It's hard to argue a card as being bad because of a single other card, and a narrow one at that but recognize this: Deicide WILL see play in nearly every single Wx variant and for just 2 mana your opponent will not only exile your God/s but also look at the contents of your hand as well as your ENTIRE deck. Fringe situation? Maybe, but that is just such a huge blowout that I would be very skeptical of this cards MB inclusion in an new meta, and that's without taking into account that it does absolutely nothing the turn it comes down.
There is very little indication that either UWx or Mono B will be going anywhere soon and Assemble the Legion just beats Keranos as an actual win con against Mono B and even Stormbreath seems a stronger option against the Wx based lists sure to see play.
Now I could be wrong and in fact hope that Keranos turns out to be secretly incredible but I'm just not seeing it atm.
Because I'm playing a deck with counterspells.
Deicide is absolutely not of any concern whatsoever. I think people keep forgetting that Slaughter Games exists, because that card is significantly more dangerous to our archetype than Deicide is.
Does Keranos do anything the turn he comes out? No, but look at it like this: Unlike Elspeth, he doesn't die to Hero's Downfall, annnnd he comes out two turns earlier than Aetherling. Additionally, he requires absolutely no investment of mana once you've cast him.
WotC, please hire me already.
I do agree with you that I also find Keranos is very sketchy at the moment, and because of the strength of white we're bound to see Mono Black probably replace its U/B lands with W/B lands and run Mono Black and splash white for a lot of good spells. Cards such as Deicide and Blinding Light seem to be worth the splash more so than just running the U/B temples for the scry effect and give Mono Black the tools they didn't have before for dealing with particular harsh cards for them such as Assemble the Legion. However, I believe he turns into a slightly harder to deal with Elspeth. In a lot of match ups he's probably worth siding out against white for the much more powerful 5 drop Stormbreath Dragon in any form of matchup against a white deck.
@Caedere
I think the main argument for Deicide though is that it's so easy to splash and deals with things that have already hit the board. Slaughter games, while I agree is absolutely horrifying for control decks running limited win cons it requires splashing two colors that no one seems to want to run together. B/R control is already a horrifying match up for us, they don't really need Slaughter Games to make it any worse and doesn't do very well in other match ups. Jund probably prefers just to run hand hate over Slaughter Games as well as it deals with actual threats in your hand cheaply as opposed to tapping out turn 4 to rip Revs out of our hand.
On another note, if you want to play Keranos and represent a counterspell to smite Deicide or any form of spell that deals with Keranos you need at the least 6 mana with Swan Song, a card that only a few people (like me) run main board. The only other reasonable counterspell that could deal with a threat after you've played Keranos is Dissolve, which would mean you would have 8 mana up. At that point I would prefer just to slam down an Aetherling and put them on a much faster clock than Keranos does.
Here, check out this list to see what I'm getting at:
3 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Elixir of Immortality
Spells (29)
4 Counterflux
4 Azorius Charm
4 Izzet Charm
2 Cyclonic Rift
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Planar Cleansing
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Deicide
2 Negate
4 Dispel
What this deck is doing is taking advantage of the fact that dropping Keranos means that you'll never have a dead draw again. I've been noticing that he has a subtle, yet very influential effect on the rest of the deck: Keranos makes Elixir much better (since recycling spells -> more damage), which means that the deck can run Izzet Charm for digging, which means that you can run more mainboard sweepers (since you can always pitch them to Charm in control matchups), which means that your game against aggro is a lot stronger.
Also, I feel that Dispel is going to be increasingly relevant in the coming months, so I stuck 4 in my sideboard.
WotC, please hire me already.
I would also consider changing a single cyclonic rift to a disperse. It changes Detention Sphere into a 5 mana exile anything permanently and also can be used to save Keranos if you're unable to counter a Deicide
And lastly, I think you should plan for the worst. Counterflux is undoubtedly a better counterspell than Dissolve however you need to respect the fact that sometimes our decks hate us and don't want to give us perfect mana on turn 3 or 4. The scry is also useful after you have a Keranos on the field as it allows you to set up an additional draw or burn.
I feel like this deck respects no other decks than control and aggro decks at the moment. Jund and G/R monsters still is a thing and we have yet to see whether any more midrange decks will become prominent.
WotC, please hire me already.
The first is a more traditional control shell.
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Temple of Triumph
4 Temple of Epiphany
2 Mutavault
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Azorius Charm
2 Izzet Charm
4 Dissolve
2 Counterflux
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Turn // Burn
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Banishing Light
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Ætherling
2 Dispel
2 Wear // Tear
1 Spear of Heliod
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Archangel of Thune
2 Blind Obedience
2 Anger of the Gods
The second is more of a midrange tapout control style deck where we kill everything in sight until we can land our game winner.
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Epiphany
3 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Turn // Burn
1 Detention Sphere
2 Banishing Light
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Ral Zarek
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Boros Charm
4 Counterflux
2 Wear // Tear
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Blind Obedience
I like the second deck more as it is closer to my style but the control shell might be the better version until I can sort out exactly where I need to be in the midrange version.
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Maybe something like :
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Mutavault
1 AÆtherling
4 Dissolve
1 Counterflux
1 Syncopate
1 Last Breath
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Detention Sphere
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Banishing Light
2 Azorius Charm
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Deicide
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Blind Obedience
2 Negate
4 temple of epiphany
2 temple of triumph
4 hallowed fountain
4 steam vents
3 sacred foundry
3 island
1 plains
1 mountain
1 keranos, god of storms
1 aetherling
2 turn/burn
1 warleader's helix
4 sphinx's revelation
4 supreme verdict
1 mizzium mortars
3 dissolve
1 syncopate
2 banishing light
4 detention sphere
2 elspeth, sun's champion
4 jace, architect of thought
2 counterflux
2 anger of the gods
2 last breath
2 pithing needle
2 font of vigor
2 reprisal
2 deicide
1 jace, memory adept
something along those lines. I think the biggest advantage UWR has over the other colors is it's ability to deal with early aggro. Izzet charm is also a very good reason to run this combination, since it's a very versatile spell for a control deck. I'm not that sure on turn/burn's effectiveness, but it gives the deck a solid answer to obzedat G1 as well as giving you the option to kill mutavaults, burn jace's, or otherwise eliminate other small creatures.
I'd like to play more mizzium mortars, but the fact that it's sorcery speed makes it a little iffy. I also like warleader's helix a lot, but 4 mana is kind of expensive. Still, the ability to burn out plainswalkers and gain life while removing a threat is pretty good.
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Mayael the Anema
I do not like font of vigor. I would rather run those as elixirs since the total mana investment is smaller (for smaller lifegain of course) and it is theoretically repeatable. Elixir also provides the ability to "go infinite" and recycle your answers.
Manabase discussion: now that we have access to all of our on color temples, what type of manabase are people planning on running? At the moment I'm running all of the on color shocks and temples available in BNG standard with 6 islands and a plains filling out for 27. After JOU I'm considering swapping shocks for temples depending on how much aggro surfaces after release because generally I rarely ever have to shock myself. Furthermore, is trying to include two mutavaults too greedy in this deck?
4x Steam Vents
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Temple of Enlightenment
3x Temple of Epiphany
3x Temple of Triumph
2x Island
2x Mountain
Creatures
1x Aetherling
2x Keranos, God of Storms
Spells
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Izzet Charm
2x Azorius Charm
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Dissolve
1x Syncopate
4x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Deicide
1x Counterflux
4x Supreme Verdict
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3x Jace, Architect of Thought
Enchantments
4x Detention Sphere
1x Banishing Light
1x Assemble the Legion
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Blind Obedience
1x Deicide
1x Fated Retribution
3x Frostburn Weird
2x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Wear // Tear
After a bit of play testing I've decided to go with this list for an IQ on May 4th. Any critiques would be appreciated. I'm expecting to see new iterations of the current decks in the meta plus a few others. Most noticeably being Atheros Aristocrats, Mono Black Discard (With Brain Maggot I expect it), Mono Black / Rakdos Aggro, and lastly Dredge and built my deck respecting all of these decks. My main theory behind putting to much aggro hate main is that I can always use the cards to filter with Izzet charm against slower matchups.
One thing I have yet to test out is Frostburn Weird. My current thought is that it's a body to put in against aggro they can't easily remove and can easily kill a lot of their one toughness creatures. The fact that it doesn't die to Anger of the Gods is just gravy. It also has the potential to turn Keranos online.
4 Frostburn Weird
2 Keranos, God of Storms
PLANESWALKERS
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
ENCHANTMENTS
4 Detention Sphere
SPELLS
4 Dissolve
3 Azorius Charm
4 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Warleader's Helix
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Temple of Triumph
3 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Epiphany
2 Island
1 Plains
Not exactly sure on the sideboard yet, most likely things such as Anger of The Gods, Deicide, Banishing Light, Stormbreath Dragon, stuff such as that. Any tips would be extremely helpful.
To me the 2 mana creature could either be Frostburn Weird, Nyx-Fleece Ram, or even Sigiled Starfish
I'm an Esper player considering a change, so I can't really speak from U/W/r experience, but I do have a few thoughts for you.
First, what if you run all 12 Scry lands, and drop to 9 Shock? That's what I do in Esper, and it's been fantastic. The current meta is slow enough that I think you can pull this off, and it will probably give you at least one more scry each game.
Continuing on the mana base, 24 is simply not enough land if you're running Sphinx's. You need to run 26 or you'll be casting way too many Rev's for 2. I'd add an Island and a Plains.
On the 2-mana creature: Frostburn seems like the most versatile, and the easiest to cast. Your (two) basic Plains are the only lands that don't support it. On the other hand, you have 9-10 lands that might get in the way of casting the Ram, which I'd agree is the #2 option. Omenspeaker and Scryfish are both so-so alternatives, but again, the current meta is slower, and thus you'll see bigger creatures, so a toughness of 3 is less appealing.
Given the sorcery-speed power of Verdict and Detention Sphere, why not run Magma Jet or Lightning Strike instead of Mortars, for more options at instant speed?
Reprisal might be a very strong option out of the sideboard. Deicide may be strong enough to make the main deck list.
What is your opinion in 27 vs 26 lands? I'm still on 27, but looking at the hypergeometric distribution, the difference in hitting land drops doesn't go beyond 5% until turn 6 whether you are on the play or on the draw. I am going to cautiously move my temple count up by starting it at an even split between shocks and temples so I would have 10 temples, 10 shocks, and 7 basics.
One thing about Mizzium Mortars is that it has more reach than Magma Jet and Lightning Strike and the option to overload is always nice. It is also the only spell besides verdict in his entire deck that can hit creatures with protection from blue or protection from white (e.g. Stormbreath Dragon, Mistcutter Hydra, Blood Baron of Vizkopa). Most of the creatures I gave as examples have haste making instant speed removal more ideal, but neither Magma Jet nor Lightning strike is likely to kill any of them unless it's a really early Mistcutter. I would probably run Turn // Burn over Magma Jet since it is an instant speed answer that kills any targetable creature that has fewer than two +1/+1 counters on it, even if it is a little clunky at 5 mana fused. You could make the argument for the addition of Reprisal as it covers many of the issues with red removal (if we assume generally symmetric power/toughness, if it's under 4 mortars can deal with it). I've been considering celestial flare as well since it can get around protection, indestructibility, hexproof, etc.
For the quoted list I would consider some number of counterflux in the 75 as it is the strongest card red brings in the control mirror. I like Assemble the Legion against MBD, but if you don't run it that's up to you.
4 Frostburn Weird
2 Keranos, God of Storms
PLANESWALKERS
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
ENCHANTMENTS
4 Detention Sphere
SPELLS
3 Dissolve
3 Azorius Charm
4 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Warleader's Helix
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Steam Vents
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Epiphany
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Counterflux
2 Dispel
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
2 Deicide
2 Banishing Light
2 Reprisal
Stormbreath Dragon - If this UWr plays anything like last seasons (INN-RTR) UWr, then our worst MU is the control mirror, more specifically the Esper MU. Drop Supreme Verdicts for Stormbreath Dragon and we get presence on the board that demands an answer, most likely having to be a Hero's Downfall as Banishing Light and Detention Sphere don't hit it.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius - Last season I ran this as a 1 of mainboard and it did wonders. Now its even better as it can turn on a Keranos, God of Storms almost on its own. It then requires instant attention as we can sit back and ride the Izzet Dragon to victory. Would side in against G/R to block their pesky Stormbreath Dragon and possibly against Control once they side out all of their Verdicts and specific creature removal.
Counterflux - No counter wars for us. Expensive but is the ultimate safety when trying to resolve Jace, Architect of Thought, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Detention Sphere, or hell even Keranos, God of Storms if it'd turn on his devotion. Could also counter their key spells as well, which is the preferred way to use this spell. No scry 1 and its a bit tougher the cast, but man is it worth it.
Dispel - Protect all of your spells by using it 1 turn later, you won't be happy if your Sphinx's Revelation gets countered.
Reprisal - Instant speed removal to get those off the wall creatures we'd have difficulty hitting such as Obzedat, Ghost Council and Mistcutter Hydra. I prefer this over Turn // Burn because it costs less to hit the same targets, and the split card can't hit Mistcutter Hydra
Deicide - Make mono blue cry even more, but I also see it as a quick and reliable way to get rid of opposing Detention Sphere's and annoying cards such as Whip of Erebos, doesn't only have to be used against the Gods.
Banishing Light - Serves the same purpose as Deicide in the control match-up except it can also get rid of opposing Jace, Architect of Thought and Elspeth, Sun's Champion without having to get rid of our own. Could also side in against green decks if you think Mistcutter Hydra will really give you that many problems.
I'm not sure Niv-Mizzet turns Keranos on the way you think it does. Maybe I'm wrong, but Kerano's wording says "Reveal the first card you draw on each of YOUR turns" (emphasis mine). That seems to be very specific, and would disallow any shenanigans happening on your opponent's turn with instant-speed Niv-Mizzet damage. Am I missing something? I probably am.
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
Enchantments
2 Assemble the Legion
4 Detention Sphere
Spells
2 Counterflux
2 Dissolve
3 Izzet Charm
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Quicken
2 Render Silent
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Warleader's Helix
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Triumph
1 AEtherling
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
3 Deicide
2 Dispel
3 Gainsay
2 Negate
1 Pithing Needle
Hah! Well now I feel like an idiot.
While it is not necessarily desirable to have rev in your opening hand (and especially multiple), because thoughtseize and duress are a part of the format, the additional redundancy helps.
The likely hood oh a discarded rev is diminished IMO greatly with 3 revs instead of 4, but its still a problem for everything except smiter with thought seize in the format Haha. There are drawbacks for having 4 and 3 alike. Its just a personal preference. Its the players decision on which is a better advantage.
The issue isn't the probability of it being discarded. The issue is how likely you are to draw a replacement when it does get discarded. I would say 3 is the bare minimum, and in a format without thoughtseize or duress is probably what I would run.
My current it iteration of the deck looks like this...
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Azorius Charm
2 Counterflux
4 Detention Sphere
2 Dissolve
2 Izzet Charm
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Syncopate
2 Turn//Burn
1 Aetherling
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Keranos, God of Storms
After a lot of games, I was able to use each card and the deck and get the feel if they were worthy of a spot or not in my list. The spell base felt VERY good so far. I love having versitile spells that can be flexible against ANY matchup. The only truly possible dead card is Anger of the Gods against control, but even then it can have a use against Elspeth tokens. Keranos, God of Storms was surprisingly an AWESOME card against all the matchups that I tested against so far. He made cards like Izzet Charm and Turn//Burn be able to burn out creatures with 5 power instead of 2, he allowed me to knock down opposing planeswalkers or keep their loyalty low enough, I scryed a Supreme Verdict at the top of my library then revealed the verdict from Keranos, killed a Necromancer, then wrathed the board that turn leaving nothing behind. Although he felt REAL sweet to the deck, I also felt that it may have just been better to be either another cheaper removal spell such as Last Breath or possibly even the third Elspeth. I am doing more testing tonight to gain more knowledge of what to add or take away. I am still working on a sideboard, but I have a general idea of what I want, I just have to sculpt it out. I will post again tomorrow probably! I look forward to hearing y'alls input on my version and I also look forward to seeing what everyone else has brewed up!