I ran ooze for a long time, and eventually cut him entirely from the deck. He's never bad, but he's also only actively good against aggro. Honestly, I think he's not needed for curve purposes, and there are just stronger cards to run if you higher up the curve.
Those are my thoughts as well, especially since I find myself boarding him out more often than not. However, my local meta is unusually heavy with Aggro decks and some sort of bizarre graveyard-abusing decks. So he's a nice trump in those matchups. And I haven't really found another creature I'd like to put in. I don't want to load up any heavier on 4+ drops. I'm already running the max # of Domri. And Courser of Kruphix is lackluster beyond the 1st. I suppose I could run another Caryatid, but I'm very comfortable with my mana base and my number of accelerators. I don't want to run less creatures b/c then Domri gets worse. So I've just stuck it out with the ol' Sc'ooze.
The whole thing is this format is super awkward early turns. 2 drops are important in the sense you can get a huge jump ahead if you curve out, but not many of them scale well. 3 drops are so much better than 2 drops in this format. As you go up the curve the biggest jumps are 2-3, and 5-6.. This is both what make Caryatid good, and bad. Caryatid is a decent 2 drop in that it accelerates your end game. However, 2-4, is considerably behind 1-3. Of course you don't always get either, in which case without another 2 you are playing the Scry land game for the first few turns.
Truthfully I think for most lists Ooze is the only option and there doesn't need to be any beyond curve concerns. But this pressure on 2 drops to perform is why I like Skylasher so much because with a certain playstyle it can be very versatile. But this only matters if your deck is aggressive enough to leverage it. Lotleth troll is my go to 2 in the Ooze spot but I don't think it's even that great since I want it more for the regen than anything else (and to draw out early removal). It can take over some games but it's a lot like Ooze in that sense. I've even cut my Trolls down to 3.. I've even considered the Guildmages (another way to use mana and to gain evasion, or lands into creatures). But I can't see them being consistent enough. I think for now we're stuck with Ooze.
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I took some of your guys advice on sideboarding and it has particularly payed off against UW. Putting in a bunch more expensive spells seems to work. I still haven't solved GW. Tried Lifebane again but I don't run enough support for it. You need to be able to kill other threats for it to be worth it I think. Basically I win when I have Bow, and I lose otherwise. But it's not like playing more Bows is worth it.
Troll has been really good for me in the green deck mirrors as this wall.. it's less good against GW since they have Advent. Some hands I wouldn't be able to win without it and sometimes just go all in early to stabilize and then reverse. People attack into the troll a lot not expecting you to block and say discard 2 or 3 creatures. That seems weird I suppose but it's worth it more often than you think if you wouldn't be casting them on curve against decks that rely primarily on red for removal. The thing is it does a lot like what Reaper does.. yes doesn't necesssarily trade but can threaten it so while it doesn't encourage the opponent not to attack most of the time it minimizes damage that actually gets through.
This is what I've been playing recently and I have been doing a lot better on MTGO again thanks to it.
Mind you, that doesn't change that I find this the most frustrating Standard format in the past 6 years. I've never played a Standard format this annoying. Seriously I've lost games where I have like 2 lands, and a perfect curve. And won games where I keep a 5 lander, with an Elf and Domri, and lose the Domri to T1 Thoughtseize. More than any format I've played this one tries to make every card matter by making each card less effective and pulling everyone into one for one sub-games. It's very hard to difficult to be able to tell the difference between a keep and snap keep. There is no hand for almost any deck that is just like this will win me the game. Obviously this is usually matchup dependent, but I believe for the most part in this format it isn't even. It's more that no matter what you can expect a certain percent of your cards to be middling in their usefulness and the more expensive the card is the more this sways from pretty good to pretty poor. There are no 5 out of 5's anywhere only 4 out of 5's in some places. This is all to make Scry that much more valuable, but Scry is such a slow control favoured mechanic especially when combined with lands that come into play tapped. Combine this with a format whose power level is actually pushed up around 3 cmc instead of the usual 4 cmc and you create this slogfest given that the key removal in the format that is relatively hit all is also 3 mana which means we are right on even trade zone since there is no ETB value to be found at 3 or 4 mana that isn't til EoT. Since there aren't reliable ways to consistently get to 3 mana on T2 there is no jump ahead of this curve since the 2 drops are so comparatively weak for the most part. Necessary I know to make the format slow enough for Devotion but terribly annoying since it puts so much strain on the top of the deck but there are no miracles to be found. If the whole format is encouraging you not to play a lot of ramp (consistency on the top of the deck or expensive spells(Thoughtseize) the fact that the I win cards are all 6 mana or greater doesn't encourage you any more. This is a horrible format.. and BNG has only helped the tiniest bit. This should correct itself with more sets, but it might not be til M15 comes out we see something even remotely reasonable.
I guess I basically hate when synergy based mechanics introduced in block are strong enough to dominant Standard format right out of the gate. It invalidates so much of the card pool which is already small from rotation. I prefer when they are strongest when the whole block is out and we come around to the next fall since by then some of the answers are generally present. But I guess that doesn't highlight the new block as much at release.
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You're losing to the Wurm because you're only running 2 spells that get rid of it, while it trades with or beats all of your creatures in combat (baring Monstrous activations). I'd run more Abrupt Decay...and Ultimate Price, Putrefy, or Dreadbore. Certainly over Vraska and Bile Blight.
Yeah I began thinking that more removal has to be the answer. The problem isn't always Wurm. Usually isn't. I lose the game when I can't kill an Archangel, or Trostani on time. This definitely points at instant speed 2 mana removal but which is hard. I mean I suppose Doom Blade does enough, maybe even enough to cut a Blight, although Blight has been very good in other matchups. Vraska was more a swap for the 2nd Mistcutter. Lifebane has been the weakest sideboard card by far since I lack support. Adding that support means cutting reasonable things so maybe I will just try the pair of Blades. Although that change does encourage the Blight for Decay in the board trade perhaps because Doom Blade is also good where Blight excels. But decay is better where Blight is weaker.
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I'd play Ultimate Price before doom blade. The Desecration demon matchups are some of the hardest, and Ultimate Price takes care of everything in the deck barring Specter and Baron/Obzy
I prefer putrefy over either of those, since it also kills Reaper of the Wilds, Boros Reckoner, Nightveil Specter, Frostburn Weird, and Obzedat. Also the gods's weapons and pithing needle, which is sometimes relevant.
My list was pretty good against mono black already so I really am just looking for something good against GW. I don't know the whole question seems awkward though. Looking for answers doesn't seem to be what this deck is doing. Even thinks like Rakdos' Return, is a concession that our end game can't just overpower. If it could there would be more Slaughter Games in the board since if you can deal with an Elspeth or Aetherling easily then really Sphinx is the only enemy. Return can be drawn out of. It's more of a concession for the need to deal damage and create a tempo gap.
Anyway I think I may have moved on(atleast until Burning Earth comes back). Jund Monsters is very good but it too felt like it was missing a touch of the it factor as Stormbreath while good sometimes was just not enough. Thanks for your help and insight in this thread. I used a lot of it to work on my newest creation.
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I really like the look of the list that won the Grand Prix last weekend... I had independently been testing out a 1-of Vraska in the main, which has been going well. Here's the list I plan to register for Grand Prix Cincinnatti this weekend:
The one scavenging ooze made it back in the deck as an acknowledgement that RW burn is a real deck. Garruk in the board instead of the 3rd Return because they're both good in the same matchups, but drawing multiple Returns can be bad, and Garruk is a better draw when both players are in a top deck war. 1 Ultimate Price in place of the 3rd Putrefy as a concession to mana cost.
Hi there, fellow Jund-ers. In an attempt to finally nail down my sideboard and, well, even the main deck, I come to you. Before I go shoving my list down yours and your screen's throats/pixels, I think it's prudent to mention a 5-sentance analysis Patrick Chapin said in his article today (on the paid SCG side) with regards to Jund Monsters and the winning list from Grand Prix Buenos Aires.
In many ways the Argentinian metagame looks like the US metagame from two weeks ago[...]US players certainly had access to this style of Jund deck, but it didn't have quite enough raw power to keep up. This deck is supposed to be bringing enough Mizzium Mortars to keep Blood Baron of Vizkopa in check. With it falling short in the US, Blood Baron is just running rampant.
Now, I'm not quite sure that's really what Jund is supposed to be doing. However, I do think that only a single Jund Monsters list in the top 16 in SCG Seattle says something. Keeping all that in mind, I went about re-tooling the deck to try and optimize my matchups and cut down on cards that were either redundant in multiples, or that I felt were becoming weaker due to the metagame shifts.
Summary:
I've dropped to 3x Courser & Caryatid (controversial, I know, but it has definitely served me well in the past, and I've rarely hoped to actually draw more of them); I've dropped to 2 Xenagos, PWer; went back up to 24 lands (including 2nd Mutavault); and managed to squeeze in 2 Ghor-Clans. Vraska is gone. She was neat in some matchups, but I think I'd rather just use other cards in here place most of the time rather than spend 5 mana for the same effect.
My sideboard hasn't changed today, but I'm trying a few different ideas, as you can tell. However, I've done some fun analysis.
I've identified 10 "necessary" cards. 2x each of Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay, Ultimate Price, and Rakdos's Return. The last 2 spots usually involve 2 more removal spells. Right now I'm looking at a 3rd Dreadbore and 2nd Putrefy, simply because of their versatility. Putrefy also hits Obzedat. Which isn't insignificant. I might do a 3rd Mortars though (Baron-dependant).
The remaining 5 spots seem flex-spots. In those last 5 spots, I currently have Ruric, Whip, 2x Thoughtseize, and Bow. Ruric is self-explanatory. He's pretty cool. Whip does a lot of work in many different matchups. Especially vs. Mono-black, where both its static/activated abilities seem very useful. Bow is more a concession to the Burn decks that are popping up. Thoughtseize is something I'm trying...to varying levels of success. I've brought it in against Control, but I'm not sure if that's the way I should be going. In those cases, it's possible that Slaughter Games is the right thing. But the difference of 1 -> 4 mana is substantial.
I'm still thinking about fitting a Chandra and Xenagos, PW into the board. I'm never sad to run more Walkers. And I really want to.
That being said, the following is now out of Sideboard contention: Garruk. With him only grabbing creatures, and with Jund's more-impactful spells, I don't think this is the right place for him. I'd love to be able to pull off what happened in Melbourne, but I think hoping for that to be the norm rather than the exception is...a little foolish.
So that's really my question. I'd really like to run a 3rd Xenagos, a Chandra, and possibly a 3rd Mortars. But I don't know what to cut, keeping everything in mind. Hell, I'd LOVE to fit in a 2nd Xenagod, but I don't think there's room.
However, I do think that only a single Jund Monsters list in the top 16 in SCG Seattle says something. Keeping all that in mind, I went about re-tooling the deck to try and optimize my matchups and cut down on cards that were either redundant in multiples, or that I felt were becoming weaker due to the metagame shifts.
I feel your pain; I haven't been winning as nearly as much since Jund Monsters became something people were prepared to see at a tournament. From two top 8s in a row in Jan. and early Feb. to scrubbing out of a PTQ a couple weeks ago and just doing okay at FNM. Now, I'm conflicted on this as it's supposed to be better in the near mirror but much worse against Thoughtseize decks which are becoming an even more dominant force in the metagame but I'm ready to try a Devotion-based build of Jund Monsters. I know a lot of what I'm about to say runs counter to things I've said earlier in the thread. Also, I want to be clear that this isn't based on a lot of testing yet, and I wouldn't necessarily play this at GP Cincy or some other large tournament this weekend.
I found myself continuing to push the deck more and more towards midrange with all of the high-impact four- and five-drops I'm trying to cram in the deck. Why not go ahead and try playing some high impact six- and seven-drops then?
Specific Card Discussions Burning-Tree Emissary - Partially, I just want to play this card more before rotation. While this deck doesn't have particularly exciting BTE chains (last season's Jund Aggro), it is a fairly standard choice in a devotion deck. Turn 2 BTE into Sylvan Caryatid is probably a pretty solid second turn against most decks right now as you're almost certainly going to have a way to play something for 4+ mana on turn three. I'm also running two Stormbreath Dragon, they can help convert green to red either by being played or with a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx activation (glorified Unknown Shores).
Witchstalker - I was playing these when I was winning - basically switched them to Reaper of the Wilds following the internet's advice and liked them a lot more than I had back in the late fall but also started winning less (almost certainly correlation not causation). I miss the high impact turn 2 play not named Domri Rade that is hard for some decks to deal with as it dodges targeted removal. I was originally going to run 3 Courser of Kruphix and a Scavenging Ooze in the main deck, but I checked with the acquaintance who won a PTQ with Jund Devotion way back when and he still stands by the hate-wolf. GR/x Monsters has been pushed back down some and B/x control has probably emerged as the top deck. Smaller, faster aggro still isn't a large part of the metagame (though RW burn could be a thing), so I'm cutting the incidental life gain from the maindeck for now. It seems odd not to play Courser in a ramp deck, so they'll come back in pretty quick if these don't seem to be worth it.
Bow of Nylea - okay, so I lied about the incidental life gain all being removed from the starting sixty. This card makes a return trip as a way to provide something to do with spare mana and two devotion. I was impressed with it in a game against my son playing UW/x control for whatever that's worth.
I thought about a singleton Hammer of Purphoros here as well.
Dreadbore - I'm not sure what I want these two slots to be - I was originally going to try Golgari Charm since I'm encouraged to over-commit to the board. However, only perhaps a quarter of decks have the board wipe ... so I guess I'll stick with the 'bore
Stormbreath Dragon - not always included in devotion decks but starting to pop-up as a two-of or three-of ... if something 4+ from the list just up there isn't pulling its weight, then another dragon will quickly find its way back in there
if anyone else has tried something more like this lately, let me know how it worked for you
I too am having trouble making the decision. If I do go Jund it will be without hero's downfall. I don't mind getting the land base, but I am not gonna drop coin on the downfalls. Unless I can get them on trade or store credit I won't be getting them.
I too am having trouble making the decision. If I do go Jund it will be without hero's downfall. I don't mind getting the land base, but I am not gonna drop coin on the downfalls. Unless I can get them on trade or store credit I won't be getting them.
go back and read the first post - I laid out the case for splashing black back in late Dec. or early Jan. - it was definitely worth it when no one else was doing it; maybe not as much now that it's a known deck ... you don't need Hero's Downfall - double black is pushing it - use Dreadbore at sorcery speed for that effect and also run Doom Blade or Ultimate Price or I prefer Putrefy for instant speed black removal
@mootown.. I was trying the devotion path but BTE is just such a non-impactful card. You end up investing so much and there are very few targets worth it. There is a reason Garruk is the curve topper in those lists but you need to be able to hit it. Enough so I think it warrants the inclusion of more than one. Low impact cards is the whole issue I've been having for a while with these decks. Scry just makes the selection in this format in such a way we're always nickel and diming for value. That being said I tried Kibler's recent posted GB Midrange deck. I was actually pleasantly surprised. While the deck had some lack of punch in the mid late game it seemed to pull it out late game. Sometimes I would just be stuck on removal doing one for one's early then just take over. He played an interesting package of 2 Mystics, 4 Caryatids, and 4 Courser of Kruphix (and 0 Domri since he had no access to red). But the thing I realized was that Domri wasn't as efficient as better removal. The awkwardness at having so many things at 3 that we have is reduced. I thought it was Courser's fault but it's actually that combination of Courser and Domri. While a great engine it can be slow. Multiples of either isn't particularly good. However 4 Coursers was perfectly fine with 0 Domri. I think Courser in most matchups right now is actually the winner of the 2. So here I am playing this list that looks like it lacks most substance and it just sort of works. Reaper was amazing in the deck, best Reaper deck I had played and similarly Scavenging Ooze that would regularly become very quickly huge.
So obviously the first thing I do is try to splash red. But not for Domri. I have to admit it starts looking like big Jund there but because there is still a lot of creatures Garruk is still serviceable. I had been playing 5 colour also during this time period so I had an idea of stretching the mana. I decided to splash blue too to get Cyclonic Rift the key I found to beating Green mirrors, and Izzet Charm probably the single best card against RW burn. After basically taking that and cutting the white from my janky Chromanticore builds I end up with this. (Don't get me wrong Chromanticore was fine it was just with so much hate for GR Monsters it was receiving the same hate, making the Chromanticore basically a Stormbreath without haste (ie.. dead), it would be fine in a different metagame).
Ruric Thar is one of my favourite sideboard cards right now as is Cyclonic Rift. I always complained about GW .. not anymore. Beating a green deck with Thoughtseize and throwing their board back into their hand is pretty cruel. Beating burn took some work but Izzet Charm and keeping Thoughtseize in have worked very well since they tend to do more than 2 damage with their spells. Attacking their hand early is critical. Since this is GB based like Kibler's list double black is actually reasonable. The only reason we don't play double black in normal monsters builds is we need the earlier red for Domri. That's less the case here.
@mootown.. I was trying the devotion path but BTE is just such a non-impactful card. You end up investing so much and there are very few targets worth it. There is a reason Garruk is the curve topper in those lists but you need to be able to hit it. Enough so I think it warrants the inclusion of more than one. Low impact cards is the whole issue I've been having for a while with these decks. Scry just makes the selection in this format in such a way we're always nickel and diming for value.
Tried the posted list with these tweaks -2 Dreadbore (to the SB), -1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, -1 Bow of Nylea, -1 Xenagos, the Reveler (the SB copy) for +1 Sylvan Caryatid, +1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts, +1 Stormbreath Dragon, +1 Rakdos's Return (from SB). I'm clearly not a devotion player; I kept siding out Burning-Tree Emissary for removal as it just felt bad in most match-ups and I wasn't quite all-in on devotion anyway. I really liked the 2nd Garruk in this list - not sure there's room for another one in Monsters though. So you're right on both those counts. I also really liked having Rakdos's Return in the main as a follow-up to Xenagos, the Reveler - basically, get board position and destroy their hand to force them to have to topdeck answers multiple turns in a row. Witchstalker proved itself more against RW than blue/black-based decks as it is quick blocker that can hold the ground against most of their creatures and hexproof keeps it from getting removed as most lists are playing burn instead of Rubblebelt Makka or Titan's Strength as pump right now it seems. So trying to learn from the failed experiment and CVM's latest article, here's where I think I would be for the near future:
I'm tempted to cut Xenagod (completely) and Garruk (to the SB)for 2 Reaper of the Wilds to up my creature count and get a non-zero number of Reaper back in the deck, but I've also tried to trim the black as I've dropped 2 Blood Crypt for Mountains as a nod to burn/quick aggro getting more popular.
EDIT: With Garruk and Return main, I might want to try to find room for a 24th land AND the 4th Caryatid ...
@mootown2: I don't necessarily say play this deck because it isn't without it's flaws but do yourself a favour(any Jund Monsters player for that matter) if you have the cards and just run a few test games with GB Midrange deck Kibler posted in his last article. I think the deck has some problems like Sylvan Primordial isn't enough on the top etc.. and his removal isn't as versatile as what we have here (there is no mass removal like Mortars etc). But I like brewing under restrictions to really understand the value of cards we may dismiss as not as good. Sometimes it's actually the other cards we are playing that aren't as good that are making these cards worse. In this case it's a matter of cutting the red and seeing what you miss. Also notice how good Scavenging Ooze and Reaper of the Wilds are in this deck. As I said I wouldn't play this deck and the red splash just seems too easy to include but it might change a bit of how you look at the cards in Jund Monsters.
Keep in mind Kibler I believe ultimately went with Jund Monsters and abandoned this brew. However, I do think there is something to be learned here. (You may be happy to know he is on Rampager over Reaper in his Monsters list).
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On Witchstalker: It's a fine card I just think in many cases Reaper does the same thing but and more. It comes down a turn later and can't protect itself til a turn after that. However, Witchstalker can get stonewalled and can't easily trade with a bigger threat the opponent plays. The biggest issue is I think given the inconsistency of the 1-3 game, (I can't believe I'm saying this.. I've been quoted saying 'I don't believe in 2 drops') we actually probably should embrace the 2-4 much stronger. But that is a much larger topic and if you give the list above a try I think you will feel what I'm saying.
Kibler's build is a fairly typical Jund Monsters build - perhaps leans slightly more midrange than some as it's running a lot of copies of Reaper of the Wilds and a variety of planeswalkers.
Compare to the build that CVM (we'll have a free article on SCG by midweek if I had to guess) just finished in the top 4 with
CVM's build leans slightly more aggressive in my opinion (no Reaper of the Wilds - lots of Ghor-Clan Rampager) and probably a pretty good follow-up to his article (free on SCG) from earlier in the week (he had a few slots he was questioning in the article). With a full playset of Ghor-Clan Rampager, I would have been tempted to return to having Flesh//Blood in the deck (perhaps a singleton copy for the 3rd Dreadbore?) but will defer to his experience.
I found it interesting that both are now running two copies of Thoughtseize in the sideboard as I had been forever ago - I dropped them for Rakdos's Return. Perhaps, the version of the deck I did well with back in late Dec. to early Feb. is great again now that Esper Control is back to being the 'top deck.'
Here's the version I was tinkering with earlier this week ... didn't get to do anything with it (my youngest son had minor surgery on Thursday morning):
I'm following the Kibler plan of 24 lands AND 4 Sylvan Caryatid since I have so much fat in the deck ... I trimmed Blood Crypt to help get a couple Mountain in the deck due to red-based aggressive strategies becoming more popular again.
Specific Card Discussions Ghor-Clan Rampager - I would like another copy of GCR but am still holding onto a couple Reaper for now - hoping that two will be enough to maintain the illusion/fear. At one point, I really wanted to cut Reaper of the Wilds entirely and max out on Witchstalker and include two Flesh//Blood and just try to combo-kill in game 1 more often.
Witchstalker - ryansolid is correct that Reaper of the Wilds is a much better card; however, I want to keep trying some number as Reaper is a functional six-drop in some match-ups - a turn 2 Witchstalker can win game 1 against monoblack and is an excellent follow-up to Supreme Verdict since it dodges Detention Sphere
Polukranos, World Eater - always a wealth of four-drops in these colors - moving a copy to the sideboard to make room for Chandra, Pyromaster in the main (Lifebane Zombie again) - still want access to an extra copy against some decks
Rakdos's Return - I like this main in most match-ups; a small one can even help you stabilize against red decks counting on the two or three burn cards in their hand to recur Chandra's Phoenix or finish you off
Bow of Nylea - want to try this in the sideboard as 3rd Scavenging Ooze that is a lot more versatile - could easily become either fourth Witchstalker or third Dreadbore or third Ghor-Clan Rampager if it doesn't work out
I think that's about everything I wanted to put on here for now ... the deck might be getting better again now that Esper and B/x control are the top decks - monoblue and the near mirror might be falling out of favor
Yeah.. I like how Streamlined CVM's list is. Lots of larger numbers and a very clear push. Truthfully every time I try to go that heavy on Ghor Clan it's a disappointment but maybe stuff like Xenagos makes the difference. Then again I stopped playing Xenagos because I found it incredibly poor with the burn and mono black floating around. But again both have some number main. Where CVM seems to be saying I'm just going to jam a bunch so I get these every game, Kibler's list is more like I want you to know that I can be playing them but the cards aren't really good enough to risk getting duplicates. Kibler's video last week had Ghor Clan as 3x in it but he was siding it out every single match pretty much. That's sort of how I feel about that card. I know some people swear by it. I was running 4's pre rotation and it's exactly the type of card I'd usually like to play. It just has been so awkward. Unbelievably so. It's more I guess under the acknowledgement I want to Bloodrush it. There are so many times that a 4/4 trample does nothing and there is no real benefit in trying to attack and get in there, where a removal spell or a Reaper, or Polukranos would bring me back in the game. Even the ability to shift the damage race in a permanent way could make a difference (I'm looking at you Exava). Exava is especially relevant in an x/4 format (where Mortars is good, which is where I think we are right now) since it beats the other x/'4s and still demands the removal while making things like Doom Blade and Ultimate Price awkward. Not that Exava really holds the torch to Polukranos or Reaper. Kibler went on in his article about cutting down Polukranos to 2. I get his argument especially with Lifebane targets but Ghor Clan is a Lifebane target too. I think cutting down Polukranos might be feasible but to me it's a safety switch for decks like Mono Blue. Yeah they may have the Rapid Hybridization but all the more reason to have a 2nd one. Here again Van Meter plays 4. To me 3 seems right because while you want it, it is still Legendary and some of Kibler's points here are valid even if I think perhaps a bit over the top.
Interestingly while they are on opposite spectrums on Courser, they both have 4 slots of removal based around Mortars and Dreadbore, and more importantly 4 Domri Rade. This is the one that baffles me the most. Domri can be very very good. Domri can also do next to nothing. I like Domri and I can see an argument for wanting to see it every game, but I think I mentioned a couple posts ago, it surprised me a bit but if I traded Domri out for 1 for 1 removal I found the deck did better. Outside of Esper in any of the trickier matchups Domri only really helped when I was able to pull ahead anyway. Where as a spot removal spell would let me survive long enough to employ bigger and better threats. Domri like Xenagos couldn't really reverse the flow of the game, my biggest gambit was that Domri might save me 5-6 life when the opponent killed it. This is sizeable mind you but it meant that protecting Domri was often a fools errand. In so having multiples pays off. Then again just killing the huge opposing creature might have won the game anyway. Domri is good and even after playing without it for a week and barely missing it I wouldn't call it useless I just find it really interesting that both pros see it as an auto 4.
Biggest issue I see in both of these lists is how heavy the sideboards are on answers. We always have this problem but it seems very pronounced in this format. I like to have about 50% of my sideboard contain other creatures and walkers.. preferably a 8-7 split. It's so hard to do that right now, but I wonder if there is a better way to keep the balance. I'm no different in my lists, 6-8 seems to be the balance. I just find it one of the sort of awkward bits with the deck compared to similar decks in different standard formats.
-- Rakdos Return
The card is dangerous. I've played and watched so many games where the opportunity cost of spending your turn to play it is actually worse than just promoting your game plan. Sometimes you get it just right. I've lost like that a few times. I've seen almost and equal number of times where I do the return and have a dreadbore and a threat in hand, and the opponent goes Dragon, Dragon, Xenagod off the top. Kibler cautioned about going to heavy into it and CVM eschews it all together. I think it's fine for a gotcha win, but I think it sometimes is awkward in that for what you might expect it doesn't always actually translate. I did test it against burn because I noticed that targetted discard like Thoughtseize was even fine there. It was only particularly good on the play or Caryatid starts since afterwards you'd usually maybe net one card since they empty their hand in response and maybe they still win off the top of their deck. Spending a whole turn for a card is a difficult prospect. Sometimes it's a lot better though. I think I find it most difficult to rely on a card that is so variable and the variable isn't based on the known game state as much as the top of the deck. I realize that my experience is a bit of an anomaly in that my win percentage after casting a hand clearing Return when in a leading board state is like 33%. I usually dislike Sire but I think the number of times my opponent top decks runner runner after has been so high (like 80% it feels) that Sire has actually done more for me. Seriously in any reasonable sized tournament where I've resolved return against a UWx Control opponent since the card has been printed the opponent has drawn Sphinx within 2 turns. That is statistically improbable so I think the card has to be better than that, but I'm just highlighting the opportunity cost.
-------------------------------------------------
I went back to sideboard Thoughtseize after my last experiment. Maindeck was fine, but the balance against threats was hurt a bit, and I think it's better to be stronger there. I was missing Domri as a proactive 3 mana play as soon as I went back to the 4 elves. Thoughtseize would buy me time there, but Domri often can buy more time and Elves push the rest of the game plan. The ability to play more creatures just makes everything flow better.
4 Colors seems really ambitious RyanSolid. Even if it was worth running a 4th color in this deck (which I can't imagine, since even the 2-color version has problems with consistency and curving out sometimes), I can't see what you are really gaining from a couple Rifts, Izzet Charms, and Notion Thieves. If you wanted to run blue, Prophet of Kruphix seems like one of the biggest pulls. Meanwhile Izzet Charm is hardly at its best here, Notion Thief is double-off-color (and not particularly strong right now anyway), and Cyclonic Rift doesn't answer anything better than a simple Dreadbore or Ultimate Price would.
I'd pick a 3rd color splash and stick to it if I were you. 4 colors is not necessarily, and is probably hurting you way more than it helps. Also, I would consider replacing Exava, Blood Witch with something else. She's very aggressive, but doesn't synergize with very much else in the deck, and she's pretty poor on defense.
Just my 2 cents.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
The consistency issues with the deck rarely are on colour I find. It's more with awkwardness of the curve and scry lands on sequencing of plays. Like the fact we rely on a split between 1 and 2 mana accelerators, yet really want to curve 3 into 4, and the potential of playing Courser at 3 mana with no value or jumping 2 to 4 and being split whether to go for Courser or slamming the 4 drop. The thing with colours is adding the additional ones comes mostly at the cost of life. Like the 2 colour list plays 4 scry lands, which lends to 8 duals which means assuming 2 Mutavaults 15 of each colour (14 red if 23 lands). That[s pretty good. Jund lists typically play 5 scry lands with 2 mutavaults but let's use Kibler and CVM above as exaple. 23 lands with 2 mutavaults for CVM yields 16 green, 13 red, and 9 black. Kibler 16 green, 15 red, and 11 black with 6 scrylands seems more consistent.
Now I also have with 6 scry lands, and 14 green, 13 red, 13 black, and 8 blue. I have as much red as CVM and more Black than Kibler while sufficient blue to do a small splash. When you add Caryatid in the mix we are fine for colours. I actually spent a stint trying 5 colour decks without gimmicks (no chromantic laterns etc) and decided the 5th colour was too inconsistent even by late game but by my 5th mana source I always had 4 out of 5 colours. Arguably I am short green sources though. I would like a 15th I suppose. My experience with green dork decks though is that 15 is desired but 14 is the minimum. This goes back to Zvi's Fire's deck. I've been playing multi colour green decks that you have to mulligan if your opener doesn't have a green source for years and 14 is the magic number. The thing is once you have the first green source given all your dorks cost 1 green and produce green means the number of sources to produce double green goes up considerably. Double green on pure lands by your 3rd souce wants 16 green for sure, but you only need 14 for by your 4th source, so basically there is a hedge for some hands to play Courser on time requires a mana dork to live. This is the biggest difficulty with my manabase against decks that play Devour Flesh since if you can count Caryatid as a green source we are easily on target. The the thing that is cool about the 4th colour splash is since we have to play the forests anyway for T1 green sources I get the Breeding Pools for the cost of life.
As for the blue splash itself it's primarily there for Cyclonic Rift. This card does so much more than pure spot removal in the places where you need it. It wins games. This card is exactly what is missing from GR and Jund Monsters since we lost Bonfire of the Damned. As soon as other green decks started popping up it became the ultimate mirror breaker, (even better than Rakdos' Return). It also gives the board reset against devotion decks. I don't think I've lost a round to a green deck since it's inclusion. It deals with everything problematic that we aren't equipped for and often all this deck needs is a tempo boost to regain initiative which is the key to winning. We aren't a grinding midrange deck. We are a deck that needs to stay ahead. To me Cyclonic Rift is better than the 2nd Mortars you'd draw in a game. Mind you I tend to play very aggressively in these shells. Exava was basically since I didn't want the 4th Reaper or the Ghor Clan. Another way to push quick damage and dodge Lifebane ended up being a lot better. I lean on Exava against Control and Burn for pure racing standpoint. The format being full of x/4's outside of our green monsters and Desecration Demon actually means that in any matchup where you are the aggressor (and the opponent isn't green) Exava is very well suited.
As for the other blue cards they are more after thoughts. I was thinking about Kiora and Prophet of Kruphix today but after watching Sam Black's RUG Monsters video I'm more convinced that they can push us into a more defensive role that doesn't actually help win the hard matchups, or rather they don't do anything more than say Garruk does. Prophet might be ok, so I'm considering it. Izzet Charm was really just a simple way to have both shock and negate. This is how I compensate for all in aggro or burn. Basically if they are all in the Spell Pierce helps against their trick or direct damage, and lets you hit their creature where applicable. I first was experimenting with it in a more Thoughtseize heavy deck as the replacement for Duress out of the board since it actively gains tempo since they have to spend the mana to cast the spell and that gained time was worth more than then life loss to the shocklands. I could run more doom blades but this is more versatile where weak. Outside of Demon we're bigger than everything else. Limiting removal slots in the 75 is key.
Notion Thief is an experiment. I wanted a creature that was good against control so I could keep my creature count up as I sideboarded without going 6 drop crazy. Look at the lists above, they only bring in 2-4 creatures against control and side more out. Domri gets so much worse there. The trickiest part is we get to a point where permission is a real issue. So sorcery speed creature walker run into their game plan, and if you play something not impactful enough they Rev. Without resorting to turn wasters like Slaughter Games, Notion Thief can still be pro active. I play enough black that blue is the limiting factor and I'd say 8 is only 1 short, but that's not counting Caryatid. Honestly I think Control is a way worse matchup than people are admitting. So I'm willing to try new ground there. Izzet Charm might even be decent there as well.
In basic, this blue splash gives game against bigger green decks like GW, Graveyard, GU Prophet, and even the mirror and I'm hoping gives a different angle against control. It can actually do a lot of work against critical mass decks like blue devotion and trick decks like hexproof. At the same time I've made my deck slightly less susceptible to black and lifebane zombie. The cost in life against aggro is real, but it isn't that bad, burn being the most awkward but Izzet Charm and Thar provide a mechanism to tempo them out and put them in checkmate situation. All that being said the blue may not be worth it outside of rift(which I guess isn't quite enough, it's close, it really can be that good), unless it makes control that much better. But I am doing better with this list than the Jund and GR lists I was using before. It might be the rogue factor but it's also more my style. I don't mind trying to be ambitious if I can get bigger payout atleast until people start packing Burning Earth. In some formats, that greed comes from curve. In these RTR formats it really comes from colour fixing.
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Those are my thoughts as well, especially since I find myself boarding him out more often than not. However, my local meta is unusually heavy with Aggro decks and some sort of bizarre graveyard-abusing decks. So he's a nice trump in those matchups. And I haven't really found another creature I'd like to put in. I don't want to load up any heavier on 4+ drops. I'm already running the max # of Domri. And Courser of Kruphix is lackluster beyond the 1st. I suppose I could run another Caryatid, but I'm very comfortable with my mana base and my number of accelerators. I don't want to run less creatures b/c then Domri gets worse. So I've just stuck it out with the ol' Sc'ooze.
Truthfully I think for most lists Ooze is the only option and there doesn't need to be any beyond curve concerns. But this pressure on 2 drops to perform is why I like Skylasher so much because with a certain playstyle it can be very versatile. But this only matters if your deck is aggressive enough to leverage it. Lotleth troll is my go to 2 in the Ooze spot but I don't think it's even that great since I want it more for the regen than anything else (and to draw out early removal). It can take over some games but it's a lot like Ooze in that sense. I've even cut my Trolls down to 3.. I've even considered the Guildmages (another way to use mana and to gain evasion, or lands into creatures). But I can't see them being consistent enough. I think for now we're stuck with Ooze.
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Troll has been really good for me in the green deck mirrors as this wall.. it's less good against GW since they have Advent. Some hands I wouldn't be able to win without it and sometimes just go all in early to stabilize and then reverse. People attack into the troll a lot not expecting you to block and say discard 2 or 3 creatures. That seems weird I suppose but it's worth it more often than you think if you wouldn't be casting them on curve against decks that rely primarily on red for removal. The thing is it does a lot like what Reaper does.. yes doesn't necesssarily trade but can threaten it so while it doesn't encourage the opponent not to attack most of the time it minimizes damage that actually gets through.
This is what I've been playing recently and I have been doing a lot better on MTGO again thanks to it.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malice
Creatures(29):
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Skylasher
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Bile Blight
2 Dreadbore
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Domri Rade
1 Bile Blight
2 Golgari Charm
3 Gift of Orzhova
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Vraska, the Unseen
2 Rakdos's Return
Mind you, that doesn't change that I find this the most frustrating Standard format in the past 6 years. I've never played a Standard format this annoying. Seriously I've lost games where I have like 2 lands, and a perfect curve. And won games where I keep a 5 lander, with an Elf and Domri, and lose the Domri to T1 Thoughtseize. More than any format I've played this one tries to make every card matter by making each card less effective and pulling everyone into one for one sub-games. It's very hard to difficult to be able to tell the difference between a keep and snap keep. There is no hand for almost any deck that is just like this will win me the game. Obviously this is usually matchup dependent, but I believe for the most part in this format it isn't even. It's more that no matter what you can expect a certain percent of your cards to be middling in their usefulness and the more expensive the card is the more this sways from pretty good to pretty poor. There are no 5 out of 5's anywhere only 4 out of 5's in some places. This is all to make Scry that much more valuable, but Scry is such a slow control favoured mechanic especially when combined with lands that come into play tapped. Combine this with a format whose power level is actually pushed up around 3 cmc instead of the usual 4 cmc and you create this slogfest given that the key removal in the format that is relatively hit all is also 3 mana which means we are right on even trade zone since there is no ETB value to be found at 3 or 4 mana that isn't til EoT. Since there aren't reliable ways to consistently get to 3 mana on T2 there is no jump ahead of this curve since the 2 drops are so comparatively weak for the most part. Necessary I know to make the format slow enough for Devotion but terribly annoying since it puts so much strain on the top of the deck but there are no miracles to be found. If the whole format is encouraging you not to play a lot of ramp (consistency on the top of the deck or expensive spells(Thoughtseize) the fact that the I win cards are all 6 mana or greater doesn't encourage you any more. This is a horrible format.. and BNG has only helped the tiniest bit. This should correct itself with more sets, but it might not be til M15 comes out we see something even remotely reasonable.
I guess I basically hate when synergy based mechanics introduced in block are strong enough to dominant Standard format right out of the gate. It invalidates so much of the card pool which is already small from rotation. I prefer when they are strongest when the whole block is out and we come around to the next fall since by then some of the answers are generally present. But I guess that doesn't highlight the new block as much at release.
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GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
Anyway I think I may have moved on(atleast until Burning Earth comes back). Jund Monsters is very good but it too felt like it was missing a touch of the it factor as Stormbreath while good sometimes was just not enough. Thanks for your help and insight in this thread. I used a lot of it to work on my newest creation.
GWU Knightfall Modern
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UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
2 Temple of Malice
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
2 Mutavault
4 Forest
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Vraska, the Unseen
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Golgari Charm
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Putrefy
1 Ultimate Price
The one scavenging ooze made it back in the deck as an acknowledgement that RW burn is a real deck. Garruk in the board instead of the 3rd Return because they're both good in the same matchups, but drawing multiple Returns can be bad, and Garruk is a better draw when both players are in a top deck war. 1 Ultimate Price in place of the 3rd Putrefy as a concession to mana cost.
Wish me luck!
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
Now, I'm not quite sure that's really what Jund is supposed to be doing. However, I do think that only a single Jund Monsters list in the top 16 in SCG Seattle says something. Keeping all that in mind, I went about re-tooling the deck to try and optimize my matchups and cut down on cards that were either redundant in multiples, or that I felt were becoming weaker due to the metagame shifts.
So here's my list as it was this morning:
2x Dreadbore
2x Mizzium Mortars
Land (23)
4x Blood Crypt
4x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Mutavault
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Stomping Ground
4x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Malice
Planeswalker (7)
3x Domri Rade
1x Vraska the Unseen
3x Xenagos, The Reveler
1x Putrefy
Creature (25)
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Dreadbore
2x Golgari Charm
1x Putrefy
2x Rakdos's Return
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Thoughtseize
2x Ultimate Price
1x Whip of Erebos
And here is the list as I've edited it today:
2x Dreadbore
2x Mizzium Mortars
Land (24)
4x Blood Crypt
4x Forest
2x Mutavault
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Stomping Ground
4x Temple of Abandon
2x Temple of Malice
4x Domri Rade
2x Xenagos, The Reveler
Instant (1)
1x Putrefy
Creature (25)
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Elvish Mystic
2x Ghor-Clan Rampager
3x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
Summary:
I've dropped to 3x Courser & Caryatid (controversial, I know, but it has definitely served me well in the past, and I've rarely hoped to actually draw more of them); I've dropped to 2 Xenagos, PWer; went back up to 24 lands (including 2nd Mutavault); and managed to squeeze in 2 Ghor-Clans. Vraska is gone. She was neat in some matchups, but I think I'd rather just use other cards in here place most of the time rather than spend 5 mana for the same effect.
Sideboard:
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Dreadbore
2x Golgari Charm
1x Putrefy
2x Rakdos's Return
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Thoughtseize
2x Ultimate Price
1x Whip of Erebos
My sideboard hasn't changed today, but I'm trying a few different ideas, as you can tell. However, I've done some fun analysis.
I've identified 10 "necessary" cards. 2x each of Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay, Ultimate Price, and Rakdos's Return. The last 2 spots usually involve 2 more removal spells. Right now I'm looking at a 3rd Dreadbore and 2nd Putrefy, simply because of their versatility. Putrefy also hits Obzedat. Which isn't insignificant. I might do a 3rd Mortars though (Baron-dependant).
The remaining 5 spots seem flex-spots. In those last 5 spots, I currently have Ruric, Whip, 2x Thoughtseize, and Bow. Ruric is self-explanatory. He's pretty cool. Whip does a lot of work in many different matchups. Especially vs. Mono-black, where both its static/activated abilities seem very useful. Bow is more a concession to the Burn decks that are popping up. Thoughtseize is something I'm trying...to varying levels of success. I've brought it in against Control, but I'm not sure if that's the way I should be going. In those cases, it's possible that Slaughter Games is the right thing. But the difference of 1 -> 4 mana is substantial.
I'm still thinking about fitting a Chandra and Xenagos, PW into the board. I'm never sad to run more Walkers. And I really want to.
That being said, the following is now out of Sideboard contention: Garruk. With him only grabbing creatures, and with Jund's more-impactful spells, I don't think this is the right place for him. I'd love to be able to pull off what happened in Melbourne, but I think hoping for that to be the norm rather than the exception is...a little foolish.
So that's really my question. I'd really like to run a 3rd Xenagos, a Chandra, and possibly a 3rd Mortars. But I don't know what to cut, keeping everything in mind. Hell, I'd LOVE to fit in a 2nd Xenagod, but I don't think there's room.
I feel your pain; I haven't been winning as nearly as much since Jund Monsters became something people were prepared to see at a tournament. From two top 8s in a row in Jan. and early Feb. to scrubbing out of a PTQ a couple weeks ago and just doing okay at FNM. Now, I'm conflicted on this as it's supposed to be better in the near mirror but much worse against Thoughtseize decks which are becoming an even more dominant force in the metagame but I'm ready to try a Devotion-based build of Jund Monsters. I know a lot of what I'm about to say runs counter to things I've said earlier in the thread. Also, I want to be clear that this isn't based on a lot of testing yet, and I wouldn't necessarily play this at GP Cincy or some other large tournament this weekend.
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Witchstalker
3 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Sylvan Primordial
3 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Dreadbore
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malice
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Xenagos, the Revler
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Putrefy
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return
I found myself continuing to push the deck more and more towards midrange with all of the high-impact four- and five-drops I'm trying to cram in the deck. Why not go ahead and try playing some high impact six- and seven-drops then?
Specific Card Discussions
Burning-Tree Emissary - Partially, I just want to play this card more before rotation. While this deck doesn't have particularly exciting BTE chains (last season's Jund Aggro), it is a fairly standard choice in a devotion deck. Turn 2 BTE into Sylvan Caryatid is probably a pretty solid second turn against most decks right now as you're almost certainly going to have a way to play something for 4+ mana on turn three. I'm also running two Stormbreath Dragon, they can help convert green to red either by being played or with a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx activation (glorified Unknown Shores).
Witchstalker - I was playing these when I was winning - basically switched them to Reaper of the Wilds following the internet's advice and liked them a lot more than I had back in the late fall but also started winning less (almost certainly correlation not causation). I miss the high impact turn 2 play not named Domri Rade that is hard for some decks to deal with as it dodges targeted removal. I was originally going to run 3 Courser of Kruphix and a Scavenging Ooze in the main deck, but I checked with the acquaintance who won a PTQ with Jund Devotion way back when and he still stands by the hate-wolf. GR/x Monsters has been pushed back down some and B/x control has probably emerged as the top deck. Smaller, faster aggro still isn't a large part of the metagame (though RW burn could be a thing), so I'm cutting the incidental life gain from the maindeck for now. It seems odd not to play Courser in a ramp deck, so they'll come back in pretty quick if these don't seem to be worth it.
Bow of Nylea - okay, so I lied about the incidental life gain all being removed from the starting sixty. This card makes a return trip as a way to provide something to do with spare mana and two devotion. I was impressed with it in a game against my son playing UW/x control for whatever that's worth.
I thought about a singleton Hammer of Purphoros here as well.
Dreadbore - I'm not sure what I want these two slots to be - I was originally going to try Golgari Charm since I'm encouraged to over-commit to the board. However, only perhaps a quarter of decks have the board wipe ... so I guess I'll stick with the 'bore
Ghor-Clan Rampager and Reaper of the Wilds - conspicuously absent; but something has to go to make room for the 1 Nylea, God of the Hunt, 2 Arbor Colossus, 2 Sylvan Primordial, 1 extra Xenagos, the Reveler, 1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts, and 1 Rakdos's Return ... let's see which card I miss more/first
Stormbreath Dragon - not always included in devotion decks but starting to pop-up as a two-of or three-of ... if something 4+ from the list just up there isn't pulling its weight, then another dragon will quickly find its way back in there
if anyone else has tried something more like this lately, let me know how it worked for you
But I have a doubt now, the black splash really worth the investment?
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
go back and read the first post - I laid out the case for splashing black back in late Dec. or early Jan. - it was definitely worth it when no one else was doing it; maybe not as much now that it's a known deck ... you don't need Hero's Downfall - double black is pushing it - use Dreadbore at sorcery speed for that effect and also run Doom Blade or Ultimate Price or I prefer Putrefy for instant speed black removal
So obviously the first thing I do is try to splash red. But not for Domri. I have to admit it starts looking like big Jund there but because there is still a lot of creatures Garruk is still serviceable. I had been playing 5 colour also during this time period so I had an idea of stretching the mana. I decided to splash blue too to get Cyclonic Rift the key I found to beating Green mirrors, and Izzet Charm probably the single best card against RW burn. After basically taking that and cutting the white from my janky Chromanticore builds I end up with this. (Don't get me wrong Chromanticore was fine it was just with so much hate for GR Monsters it was receiving the same hate, making the Chromanticore basically a Stormbreath without haste (ie.. dead), it would be fine in a different metagame).
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Malice
Creatures(24):
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Garruk, Caller of the Beasts
Other(10):
4 Thoughtseize
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Golgari Charm
2 Izzet Charm
2 Domri Rade
2 Notion Thief
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Ruric Thar is one of my favourite sideboard cards right now as is Cyclonic Rift. I always complained about GW .. not anymore. Beating a green deck with Thoughtseize and throwing their board back into their hand is pretty cruel. Beating burn took some work but Izzet Charm and keeping Thoughtseize in have worked very well since they tend to do more than 2 damage with their spells. Attacking their hand early is critical. Since this is GB based like Kibler's list double black is actually reasonable. The only reason we don't play double black in normal monsters builds is we need the earlier red for Domri. That's less the case here.
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Also, how does the hexproof match up play out? How do we sb?
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Tried the posted list with these tweaks -2 Dreadbore (to the SB), -1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, -1 Bow of Nylea, -1 Xenagos, the Reveler (the SB copy) for +1 Sylvan Caryatid, +1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts, +1 Stormbreath Dragon, +1 Rakdos's Return (from SB). I'm clearly not a devotion player; I kept siding out Burning-Tree Emissary for removal as it just felt bad in most match-ups and I wasn't quite all-in on devotion anyway. I really liked the 2nd Garruk in this list - not sure there's room for another one in Monsters though. So you're right on both those counts. I also really liked having Rakdos's Return in the main as a follow-up to Xenagos, the Reveler - basically, get board position and destroy their hand to force them to have to topdeck answers multiple turns in a row. Witchstalker proved itself more against RW than blue/black-based decks as it is quick blocker that can hold the ground against most of their creatures and hexproof keeps it from getting removed as most lists are playing burn instead of Rubblebelt Makka or Titan's Strength as pump right now it seems. So trying to learn from the failed experiment and CVM's latest article, here's where I think I would be for the near future:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Witchstalker
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
3 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Flesh//Blood
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
5 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Chandra, the Pyromaster
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Putrefy
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Dreadbore
I'm tempted to cut Xenagod (completely) and Garruk (to the SB)for 2 Reaper of the Wilds to up my creature count and get a non-zero number of Reaper back in the deck, but I've also tried to trim the black as I've dropped 2 Blood Crypt for Mountains as a nod to burn/quick aggro getting more popular.
EDIT: With Garruk and Return main, I might want to try to find room for a 24th land AND the 4th Caryatid ...
I only play 3 Domri Rade and generally shave a copy when I'm not the beatdown and am sideboarding in a lot of removal ...
this is extremely accurate - some number of Mizzium Mortars isn't terrible, but you'll only want to overload them so probably not more than 2?
so for my list in the above post something like:
IN: +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Mizzium Mortars
OUT: -2 Dreadbore, -1 Flesh//Blood, -1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts, -1 Domri Rade, -1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Sylvan Primordial
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
Planeswalkers (3):
3 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
7 Forest
7 Swamp
4 Golgari Guildgate
2 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
Spells (11):
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Nylea's Disciple
2 Underworld Connections
3 Dark Betrayal
1 Doom Blade
3 Golgari Charm
2 Ultimate Price
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Duress
Keep in mind Kibler I believe ultimately went with Jund Monsters and abandoned this brew. However, I do think there is something to be learned here. (You may be happy to know he is on Rampager over Reaper in his Monsters list).
------------------------
On Witchstalker: It's a fine card I just think in many cases Reaper does the same thing but and more. It comes down a turn later and can't protect itself til a turn after that. However, Witchstalker can get stonewalled and can't easily trade with a bigger threat the opponent plays. The biggest issue is I think given the inconsistency of the 1-3 game, (I can't believe I'm saying this.. I've been quoted saying 'I don't believe in 2 drops') we actually probably should embrace the 2-4 much stronger. But that is a much larger topic and if you give the list above a try I think you will feel what I'm saying.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Domri Rade
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
1 Mutavault
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Thoughtseize
1 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
1 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Golgari Charm
Kibler's build is a fairly typical Jund Monsters build - perhaps leans slightly more midrange than some as it's running a lot of copies of Reaper of the Wilds and a variety of planeswalkers.
Compare to the build that CVM (we'll have a free article on SCG by midweek if I had to guess) just finished in the top 4 with
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Sire of Insanity
4 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Forest
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Malice
2 Mutavault
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ultimate Price
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
CVM's build leans slightly more aggressive in my opinion (no Reaper of the Wilds - lots of Ghor-Clan Rampager) and probably a pretty good follow-up to his article (free on SCG) from earlier in the week (he had a few slots he was questioning in the article). With a full playset of Ghor-Clan Rampager, I would have been tempted to return to having Flesh//Blood in the deck (perhaps a singleton copy for the 3rd Dreadbore?) but will defer to his experience.
I found it interesting that both are now running two copies of Thoughtseize in the sideboard as I had been forever ago - I dropped them for Rakdos's Return. Perhaps, the version of the deck I did well with back in late Dec. to early Feb. is great again now that Esper Control is back to being the 'top deck.'
Here's the version I was tinkering with earlier this week ... didn't get to do anything with it (my youngest son had minor surgery on Thursday morning):
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
3 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Witchstalker
1 Bow of Nylea
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Putrefy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
I'm following the Kibler plan of 24 lands AND 4 Sylvan Caryatid since I have so much fat in the deck ... I trimmed Blood Crypt to help get a couple Mountain in the deck due to red-based aggressive strategies becoming more popular again.
Specific Card Discussions
Ghor-Clan Rampager - I would like another copy of GCR but am still holding onto a couple Reaper for now - hoping that two will be enough to maintain the illusion/fear. At one point, I really wanted to cut Reaper of the Wilds entirely and max out on Witchstalker and include two Flesh//Blood and just try to combo-kill in game 1 more often.
Xenagos, God of the Revels - really should be a fourth Stormbreath Dragon at this point due to the resurgence of Lifebane Zombie
Witchstalker - ryansolid is correct that Reaper of the Wilds is a much better card; however, I want to keep trying some number as Reaper is a functional six-drop in some match-ups - a turn 2 Witchstalker can win game 1 against monoblack and is an excellent follow-up to Supreme Verdict since it dodges Detention Sphere
Polukranos, World Eater - always a wealth of four-drops in these colors - moving a copy to the sideboard to make room for Chandra, Pyromaster in the main (Lifebane Zombie again) - still want access to an extra copy against some decks
Rakdos's Return - I like this main in most match-ups; a small one can even help you stabilize against red decks counting on the two or three burn cards in their hand to recur Chandra's Phoenix or finish you off
Bow of Nylea - want to try this in the sideboard as 3rd Scavenging Ooze that is a lot more versatile - could easily become either fourth Witchstalker or third Dreadbore or third Ghor-Clan Rampager if it doesn't work out
I think that's about everything I wanted to put on here for now ... the deck might be getting better again now that Esper and B/x control are the top decks - monoblue and the near mirror might be falling out of favor
Interestingly while they are on opposite spectrums on Courser, they both have 4 slots of removal based around Mortars and Dreadbore, and more importantly 4 Domri Rade. This is the one that baffles me the most. Domri can be very very good. Domri can also do next to nothing. I like Domri and I can see an argument for wanting to see it every game, but I think I mentioned a couple posts ago, it surprised me a bit but if I traded Domri out for 1 for 1 removal I found the deck did better. Outside of Esper in any of the trickier matchups Domri only really helped when I was able to pull ahead anyway. Where as a spot removal spell would let me survive long enough to employ bigger and better threats. Domri like Xenagos couldn't really reverse the flow of the game, my biggest gambit was that Domri might save me 5-6 life when the opponent killed it. This is sizeable mind you but it meant that protecting Domri was often a fools errand. In so having multiples pays off. Then again just killing the huge opposing creature might have won the game anyway. Domri is good and even after playing without it for a week and barely missing it I wouldn't call it useless I just find it really interesting that both pros see it as an auto 4.
Biggest issue I see in both of these lists is how heavy the sideboards are on answers. We always have this problem but it seems very pronounced in this format. I like to have about 50% of my sideboard contain other creatures and walkers.. preferably a 8-7 split. It's so hard to do that right now, but I wonder if there is a better way to keep the balance. I'm no different in my lists, 6-8 seems to be the balance. I just find it one of the sort of awkward bits with the deck compared to similar decks in different standard formats.
-- Rakdos Return
The card is dangerous. I've played and watched so many games where the opportunity cost of spending your turn to play it is actually worse than just promoting your game plan. Sometimes you get it just right. I've lost like that a few times. I've seen almost and equal number of times where I do the return and have a dreadbore and a threat in hand, and the opponent goes Dragon, Dragon, Xenagod off the top. Kibler cautioned about going to heavy into it and CVM eschews it all together. I think it's fine for a gotcha win, but I think it sometimes is awkward in that for what you might expect it doesn't always actually translate. I did test it against burn because I noticed that targetted discard like Thoughtseize was even fine there. It was only particularly good on the play or Caryatid starts since afterwards you'd usually maybe net one card since they empty their hand in response and maybe they still win off the top of their deck. Spending a whole turn for a card is a difficult prospect. Sometimes it's a lot better though. I think I find it most difficult to rely on a card that is so variable and the variable isn't based on the known game state as much as the top of the deck. I realize that my experience is a bit of an anomaly in that my win percentage after casting a hand clearing Return when in a leading board state is like 33%. I usually dislike Sire but I think the number of times my opponent top decks runner runner after has been so high (like 80% it feels) that Sire has actually done more for me. Seriously in any reasonable sized tournament where I've resolved return against a UWx Control opponent since the card has been printed the opponent has drawn Sphinx within 2 turns. That is statistically improbable so I think the card has to be better than that, but I'm just highlighting the opportunity cost.
-------------------------------------------------
I went back to sideboard Thoughtseize after my last experiment. Maindeck was fine, but the balance against threats was hurt a bit, and I think it's better to be stronger there. I was missing Domri as a proactive 3 mana play as soon as I went back to the 4 elves. Thoughtseize would buy me time there, but Domri often can buy more time and Elves push the rest of the game plan. The ability to play more creatures just makes everything flow better.
Current list:
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Malice
Creatures(26):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
4 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Domri Rade
2 Garruk, Caller of the Beasts
Other(5):
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dreadbore
2 Thougthseize
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Ultimate Price
3 Golgari Charm
2 Izzet Charm
2 Notion Thief
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Vraska, the Unseen
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
EDIT: Traded a black for a green source going to 15G, 13R, 12B, 8U.. Trying to decide if shaving one more black for another green is worth it.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I'd pick a 3rd color splash and stick to it if I were you. 4 colors is not necessarily, and is probably hurting you way more than it helps. Also, I would consider replacing Exava, Blood Witch with something else. She's very aggressive, but doesn't synergize with very much else in the deck, and she's pretty poor on defense.
Just my 2 cents.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Now I also have with 6 scry lands, and 14 green, 13 red, 13 black, and 8 blue. I have as much red as CVM and more Black than Kibler while sufficient blue to do a small splash. When you add Caryatid in the mix we are fine for colours. I actually spent a stint trying 5 colour decks without gimmicks (no chromantic laterns etc) and decided the 5th colour was too inconsistent even by late game but by my 5th mana source I always had 4 out of 5 colours. Arguably I am short green sources though. I would like a 15th I suppose. My experience with green dork decks though is that 15 is desired but 14 is the minimum. This goes back to Zvi's Fire's deck. I've been playing multi colour green decks that you have to mulligan if your opener doesn't have a green source for years and 14 is the magic number. The thing is once you have the first green source given all your dorks cost 1 green and produce green means the number of sources to produce double green goes up considerably. Double green on pure lands by your 3rd souce wants 16 green for sure, but you only need 14 for by your 4th source, so basically there is a hedge for some hands to play Courser on time requires a mana dork to live. This is the biggest difficulty with my manabase against decks that play Devour Flesh since if you can count Caryatid as a green source we are easily on target. The the thing that is cool about the 4th colour splash is since we have to play the forests anyway for T1 green sources I get the Breeding Pools for the cost of life.
As for the blue splash itself it's primarily there for Cyclonic Rift. This card does so much more than pure spot removal in the places where you need it. It wins games. This card is exactly what is missing from GR and Jund Monsters since we lost Bonfire of the Damned. As soon as other green decks started popping up it became the ultimate mirror breaker, (even better than Rakdos' Return). It also gives the board reset against devotion decks. I don't think I've lost a round to a green deck since it's inclusion. It deals with everything problematic that we aren't equipped for and often all this deck needs is a tempo boost to regain initiative which is the key to winning. We aren't a grinding midrange deck. We are a deck that needs to stay ahead. To me Cyclonic Rift is better than the 2nd Mortars you'd draw in a game. Mind you I tend to play very aggressively in these shells. Exava was basically since I didn't want the 4th Reaper or the Ghor Clan. Another way to push quick damage and dodge Lifebane ended up being a lot better. I lean on Exava against Control and Burn for pure racing standpoint. The format being full of x/4's outside of our green monsters and Desecration Demon actually means that in any matchup where you are the aggressor (and the opponent isn't green) Exava is very well suited.
As for the other blue cards they are more after thoughts. I was thinking about Kiora and Prophet of Kruphix today but after watching Sam Black's RUG Monsters video I'm more convinced that they can push us into a more defensive role that doesn't actually help win the hard matchups, or rather they don't do anything more than say Garruk does. Prophet might be ok, so I'm considering it. Izzet Charm was really just a simple way to have both shock and negate. This is how I compensate for all in aggro or burn. Basically if they are all in the Spell Pierce helps against their trick or direct damage, and lets you hit their creature where applicable. I first was experimenting with it in a more Thoughtseize heavy deck as the replacement for Duress out of the board since it actively gains tempo since they have to spend the mana to cast the spell and that gained time was worth more than then life loss to the shocklands. I could run more doom blades but this is more versatile where weak. Outside of Demon we're bigger than everything else. Limiting removal slots in the 75 is key.
Notion Thief is an experiment. I wanted a creature that was good against control so I could keep my creature count up as I sideboarded without going 6 drop crazy. Look at the lists above, they only bring in 2-4 creatures against control and side more out. Domri gets so much worse there. The trickiest part is we get to a point where permission is a real issue. So sorcery speed creature walker run into their game plan, and if you play something not impactful enough they Rev. Without resorting to turn wasters like Slaughter Games, Notion Thief can still be pro active. I play enough black that blue is the limiting factor and I'd say 8 is only 1 short, but that's not counting Caryatid. Honestly I think Control is a way worse matchup than people are admitting. So I'm willing to try new ground there. Izzet Charm might even be decent there as well.
In basic, this blue splash gives game against bigger green decks like GW, Graveyard, GU Prophet, and even the mirror and I'm hoping gives a different angle against control. It can actually do a lot of work against critical mass decks like blue devotion and trick decks like hexproof. At the same time I've made my deck slightly less susceptible to black and lifebane zombie. The cost in life against aggro is real, but it isn't that bad, burn being the most awkward but Izzet Charm and Thar provide a mechanism to tempo them out and put them in checkmate situation. All that being said the blue may not be worth it outside of rift(which I guess isn't quite enough, it's close, it really can be that good), unless it makes control that much better. But I am doing better with this list than the Jund and GR lists I was using before. It might be the rogue factor but it's also more my style. I don't mind trying to be ambitious if I can get bigger payout atleast until people start packing Burning Earth. In some formats, that greed comes from curve. In these RTR formats it really comes from colour fixing.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage